Jackson is on record defending his policy of not playing rookies unless he's forced to. It's quite retarded IMO because history is full of rookies making significant contributions to teams. Maybe Jeannie Buss should play him a video of Magic taking over in the 1980 finals.
Also if Jackson did this, he could get rid of his "can't develop players" rap, but of course it could be entirely true.
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If Ben Wallace starts to tire, look for the Pistons to double team more.In fact I think that's what's gonna happen in Detroit. Keep the ball out of Shaq's hands and make the others....or what's left of them, beat you. Detroit have enough bodies to keep Shaq busy.
I agree that Detroit has a lot of big men. That is in part why Shaq isn't just springing into slams anymore. I mean any foul that actually knocks Shaq off his shot would be a full blown flagrant on anyone else.
I know I go over this over and over, but so few people realize how huge Shaq truly is in terms of size and muscle. I mean they list him at 340 and snicker about it. Most centers on opposing teams actually weigh as much as Karl Malone does. (about 260) The point is these guys are laying full blown bodies on Shaq to knock him off his shoot. They are laying into him in ways that would put anyone else flat on their back.
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You are correct about the number of shots. That's not indicative of Shaq not having lost a step though. I gave you a good example before. If you want proof, watch a video of the last Lakers championship. Back then, Shaq would in ONE motion grab a rebound and explode up for a monster dunk. These days he has a lot more layups.
Want more proof that Shaq has lost a step? Check his numbers in the playoffs for games with one day of rest vs. games with two days of rest. There is almost a seven point difference. Heck, he only had 7 total rebounds last night.....on one day of rest. We could attribute part of that to poor conditioning...but do you really think Shaq will work in the offseason and get in better shape? I think there's a better chance of the Clippers winning a ring before that happens.
Shaq still dunks, even off alley-oop passes a couple times a game. I still see him catch the ball WELL above the rim and slam it home with lots of regularity. He gets lay ups now because coaches have complained about Shaq parking in the paint, and also that he commits offensive charging. Those are both harder to call off someone making a layup than someone slamming the ball down so hard the building shakes.
I do think Shaq will work harder on his off-season conditioning for a couple reasons. One, he has the guy who, if he plays another season or so, really will be the Most Dominant EVER in terms of points playing right next to him. Shaq can see in some ways, a future version of himself in terms of health in terms of what aging can do. Older guys like Karl look very fit, but are limited physically in ways that aren't discussed much. They also have a lot of work to still be able to do what they do. Shaq has likely had to world's best wake up call in terms of example sitting right next to him.
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You know what? I totally disagree with you on this one, but I totally hope you're right. Here's why I disagree with you.
First of all, the one thing you can always count on is effort. Defense is mostly effort. You can have a bad shooting night, but you can always play hard(unless you're the Jeckyll and Hyde Lakers of 2003-2004). The Pistons are a defense/effort first team. That's the one thing you know they will bring. Whether they have a good shooting night or not, is another.
Last night they played 10 players. Brown will keep rotating the players to keep them from getting too tired.
I think I am right on this because of how the Lakers took apart San Antonio. San Antonio's defense was rated right there with Detroit's. San Antonio was also seen as a deep team with plenty players to spread the minutes around on. Also people start hyping things so hard that people forget the reality of situations. People think the other team is just going to blow away or something. Even in 2002, the Lakers were taken to seven games by the Kings. The thing that makes it so hard to beat the Lakers is that Kobe and Shaq are such a consistant one-two punch. Over the course of a series they have a different guy break out here or there while also finding a way to stop the other teams lesser players. The effects are not immediate, but they make themselves known over the course of the series.
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I felt bad for him as well. The triangle takes time to learn, and even more time when you don't make much of an effort all season to try to learn it. I don't know about the "good help defensively". Payton has been torched by Billups in both games, and his offensive contribution has been almost non-existent. He had more turnovers than points last night. Three TOs to 2 points.
Payton doesn't get helped nearly enough by Shaq on pick and rolls. Shaq hates defending them. That is what happened to Payton on S.A. as well. He screamed about it, still took the blame, got some help and got some plays called for him. The results were 10-11 points a game and Parker disappearing as a deciding factor.
There is nothing wrong with needing plays called for you, screens, etc. for scoring. The number of guys who can score at will in the NBA are very small. Jackson should show more flexibility in his play calling and selection. There have been dozens of times this year where the Lakers haven't been able to get their offense going for long stretches.
Jackson simply won't take them out of the triangle or change anything during these times. He forces them to grunt through it. What usually happens is Kobe gets them out of it just by breaking the triangle/called plays and taking over with pure freelancing. He goes about 4-10/11 during these stretches and keeps them in the game. The reality is that he can get away with that because he is Kobe. Payton tosses the offense and starts backing people down, he gets benched. However there are periods where Jackson should be willing to run something different. He did it when their backs were against the wall in S.A. but it shouldn't take that to force him to actually design and run plays that work off the strengths of his players.
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There is no question we need Payton more than ever considering Fisher is hurt and Rush is just a spot up shooter(can't create his own shots).
But what is Payton giving us? Torched by Billups(22 and 27pts.)....
Can't play the pick and roll which messes up our defense....
And a "grand" offensive output of 2.5 pts.(5 total)along with 2.5 turnovers(5 total)and 4.5 personal fouls per game. That's horrible for almost 30 minutes per game. Nah, let me rephrase that...that's a ******* joke. Payton needs to quit his pouting and grow some ***** and start playing some basketball.
Come on, even Kobe is frustrated with Phil. Payton has average 18 points a game for 14 years. Payton is a nine time All-Star. He averaged 20 and 19 points per game respectively with two entirely different teams last year. (Seattle and Minnisota) Payton has been playing basketball in a great manner for long enough to have proven his worth. The reality is that the Lakers need to utilize him much better. Payton is a proven scorer with almost 20,000 points. When they called plays for him in San Antonio, he scored. But you can't complain that all he gets is cleaning up the garbage and doesn't manage as much as he could if he were the first option instead of the fourth.
Well Trumpt, I think this is the one place where your analyses actually make sense and sound thoughtful.
I would say that I think that Shaq is slowing down in general . . . I think that at this point in the season if you are not conditioned while playing as much as he does then no off-season conditioning would do any more.
I also think that what your saying about Jackson's coaching backs up the saying about his 'team developement' I'm not sure that he deserves the record that he has: any decent coach with the players that he has had would have such a record.
I agree that Detroit has a lot of big men. That is in part why Shaq isn't just springing into slams anymore. I mean any foul that actually knocks Shaq off his shot would be a full blown flagrant on anyone else.
I don't get your point. Shaq didn't mind exploding for slams against anyone when he was younger. Most WC teams have through the years loaded up with big men because of Shaq. It didn't make a difference in the past.
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The point is these guys are laying full blown bodies on Shaq to knock him off his shoot. They are laying into him in ways that would put anyone else flat on their back.
That's been the case since....always.
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Shaq still dunks, even off alley-oop passes a couple times a game. I still see him catch the ball WELL above the rim and slam it home with lots of regularity.
Of course he still dunks. Who ever said he didn't? You need to see videos of Shaq 2 years ago though. Big difference. He doesn't have that explosive lift all the time anymore.
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He gets lay ups now because coaches have complained about Shaq parking in the paint, and also that he commits offensive charging.
Coaches have been complaining about that since...always. That had never stopped Shaq from dunking on someone.
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I do think Shaq will work harder on his off-season conditioning for a couple reasons. One, he has the guy who, if he plays another season or so, really will be the Most Dominant EVER in terms of points playing right next to him.
I hope you're right. Though Shaq probably wouldn't survive 20 minutes of Malone's workout. lol Malone is amazing.
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Shaq can see in some ways, a future version of himself in terms of health in terms of what aging can do. Older guys like Karl look very fit, but are limited physically in ways that aren't discussed much. They also have a lot of work to still be able to do what they do. Shaq has likely had to world's best wake up call in terms of example sitting right next to him.
I'd love to agree with you here....but considering we're talking about the same guy who has never been bothered to work on his freethrows consistently..... "I'll make them when they count". Also, I think Malone is a freak of nature which allows him to work so hard both in the off and regular seasons.
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I think I am right on this because of how the Lakers took apart San Antonio. San Antonio's defense was rated right there with Detroit's. San Antonio was also seen as a deep team with plenty players to spread the minutes around on.
Well, you're forgetting all the days off between games they had in the first rounds. Games were very spread out (at least till the first 3 games vs. SA in round 2). The whole team is more beat up now. Shaq's lack of conditioning, which you have acknowledged, is becoming a factor. Like I said earlier, the stats showed much better numbers in games that Shaq had more than one day of rest between games. It's a fact. Google it and you'll see.
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Payton doesn't get helped nearly enough by Shaq on pick and rolls. Shaq hates defending them. That is what happened to Payton on S.A. as well. He screamed about it, still took the blame, got some help and got some plays called for him. The results were 10-11 points a game and Parker disappearing as a deciding factor.
Correct. Shaq is just lazy defending them, period. He's always been lazy putting pressure on outside shooting big men aswell.
Payton could use more help, no doubt. He wasn't playing all that badly in the first half of game 2. He was going around screens, putting a hand in Billups face etc. The third quarter was a joke though. He was staying under screens for some reason and then he was committing dumb fouls and turnovers like the traveling call and when he picked up his dribble before crossing the halfway line. Bad.
By the way, Jackson was very inflexible about the triangle...until the Spurs series where he started incorporating more pick and rolls...in large part to get Payton going. He's allowing him to post up his man too....he just can't get going. He could at least cheer the team on when he's on the bench. But nothing. He just sulks there.
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Come on, even Kobe is frustrated with Phil.
Yeah.... I know Kobe actually dislikes Phil. He's said so himself.
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Payton has average 18 points a game for 14 years. Payton is a nine time All-Star. He averaged 20 and 19 points per game respectively with two entirely different teams last year. (Seattle and Minnisota)
You mean Milwaukee. In both instances there was no triangle and the offense would go through him. He didn't have superstars like Shaq and a Kobe to "feed".
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Payton has been playing basketball in a great manner for long enough to have proven his worth.
The past is the past. We all know he's been a great player thoughout his career. He's also been a problem everywhere he's played. His pouting and sulking is well documented. No news there.
I agree with you about Phil Jackson. He's stubborn and reluctant to make adjustments to accomodate players. Heck, he wouldn't do it much for Jordan or Pippen. Yeah, Payton could be used better...but the guy just closed his mind to trying to adapt to the offense months ago. His problem is in large part mental.
I don't get your point. Shaq didn't mind exploding for slams against anyone when he was younger. Most WC teams have through the years loaded up with big men because of Shaq. It didn't make a difference in the past. That's been the case since....always.
Since always? You name for me another season in which the west was so good it had six teams win 50 games. The West hasn't just loaded up on big men. It has stolen all of them from the entire East coast. The East looks so tiny in comparison. I mean even look at the Pistons themselves. Rasheed came from Portland as a forward and he is actually 2 inches taller than Ben Wallace, their center. Do you think Brian Grant could last in the West? Even Jermaine O'neal isn't a true center. Sacramento for example has multiple seven foot tall true centers. San Antonio has multiple seven tall true centers. The West is the land of the trees. It is one thing when A team loads up, but now every single one has done so.
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That's been the case since....always.
(regarding fouling Shaq hard)
You are welcome to name for me any season in the past in which Shaq had to face 7'6" Yao Ming, then move on to the dual seven footers in San Antonio. (Duncan and Nestor) The Timberwolves were not as threatening in terms of size, but gave Shaq plenty of fouls. Shaq couldn't get calls when Madsen was practically molesting the guy. (I think titty twisters are fouls last I checked) They also allowed Madsen and others to do a lot more than just body check Shaq. They were allowing them to practically take a three point football stance and launch into the guys kidneys. Sadly Shaq still had offensive charges called on him for knocking down the Madsen and others when he would turn toward them and knock them across the face with his elbow. (Since his face was down by Shaqs waist thanks to the afore mentioned football stances/defense)
Then in the finals Shaq has two Wallaces, Campbell who used to be Shaq's back up (at 7 ft tall) and one other 7ft'er as well.
Yep, I can see why Shaq is slowing up some. I mean they've only scoured the entire planet looking for big men to put up against him.
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Of course he still dunks. Who ever said he didn't? You need to see videos of Shaq 2 years ago though. Big difference. He doesn't have that explosive lift all the time anymore.
Shaq does need to drop some weight. It would lengthen his career and improve his athleticism. But the point is that Shaq has never been super healthy. You look at his entire career stats and I don't see many 80 game seasons, oh, since his rookie year or so.
Why don't you also look and see how many 80+ game seaons Kobe has as well? The Lakers have gone long and deep into the playoffs for years now. Those games add up. They even add up on a 25 year old Kobe Bryant.
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Coaches have been complaining about that since...always. That had never stopped Shaq from dunking on someone.
Things can be cumulative as well. The Lakers have had more help in the past, so Shaq's foul trouble wouldn't have been so terrible if he picked up the odd foul. Also Shaq wasn't consistantly going against multiple seven footers all the time. I mean think about Sacramento with Vlade, (master offensive flopper) Brad Miller and also Chris Webber. One offensive foul slip up can seriously harm your chances at winning with a team like that. Same thing with San Antonio who now has three seven footers on roster.
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I hope you're right. Though Shaq probably wouldn't survive 20 minutes of Malone's workout. lol Malone is amazing.
Malone is insane. Shaq can watch someone like Malone who is still playing versus someone like say Barkley, who didn't. I think Shaq will start getting into better condition. He is listed at 340 this year. (Which is really probably 365) Many thought he was at about 400 last year when the Lakers were eliminated. There is a limit to how much weight you can lose in a healthy manner off-season as well. If Shaq drops another 30 lbs safely he will be even better of course. Of course the best motivation for Shaq to hit the weights would be having to argue about his contract extension after Kobe takes MVP honors in the finals.
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I'd love to agree with you here....but considering we're talking about the same guy who has never been bothered to work on his freethrows consistently..... "I'll make them when they count". Also, I think Malone is a freak of nature which allows him to work so hard both in the off and regular seasons.
Actually Shaq has worked quite hard on free throws. I've heard claim of a wrist injury that keeps him from getting a soft touch. I've also just seen the guy shooting and can't think of anyone else who is so large, they make the basketball look like a softball in their hands. Also you don't think that he would find a way to do the one thing that would stop everyone from hacking away at him if he could? As for Malone, yep he is a total freak of nature. I hope he plays for several more years.
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Well, you're forgetting all the days off between games they had in the first rounds. Games were very spread out (at least till the first 3 games vs. SA in round 2). The whole team is more beat up now. Shaq's lack of conditioning, which you have acknowledged, is becoming a factor. Like I said earlier, the stats showed much better numbers in games that Shaq had more than one day of rest between games. It's a fact. Google it and you'll see.
The same is true for the Pistons. It could even be argued that as the game wore on, the Lakers got better in part, because Detroit needs so much energy just to sustain themselves against the Lakers. I mean just one or two minutes of slightly less intense energy and bam Shaq and Kobe come swooping in from all corners as we saw in OT. Most players (Shaq included) play better with more rest. I guess the MVP, Kevin Garnett must be going downhill since he couldn't beat the Lakers on two days rest after a game seven.
But again I see the Pistons playing longer minutes than the Lakers. It might take a while to add up, but it will.
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Correct. Shaq is just lazy defending them, period. He's always been lazy putting pressure on outside shooting big men aswell.
Well most teams run the pick and roll with a forward. Teams intentionally use their centers with Shaq just to attempt to get him in foul trouble. Shaq won't let himself get in foul trouble and the result isn't just Payton looking bad. Parker, Bibby, Hudson, you name any small, very quick guard and the Lakers have trouble with them. It is partially because of Jackson's preference for guards. He likes longer guys like Harper, etc. He even has Kobe bring the ball up most of the time because he likes his guards taller.
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Payton could use more help, no doubt. He wasn't playing all that badly in the first half of game 2. He was going around screens, putting a hand in Billups face etc. The third quarter was a joke though. He was staying under screens for some reason and then he was committing dumb fouls and turnovers like the traveling call and when he picked up his dribble before crossing the halfway line. Bad.
By the way, Jackson was very inflexible about the triangle...until the Spurs series where he started incorporating more pick and rolls...in large part to get Payton going. He's allowing him to post up his man too....he just can't get going. He could at least cheer the team on when he's on the bench. But nothing. He just sulks there.
Look, no one is perfect. Kobe still forces two or three attempts a game. The point isn't even that Payton can't have a bad quarter or game. The point is, as you mentioned as well, that Jackson will not make adjustments that would allow the Lakers to confound their opposition and also get more from the players he has. Everyone deals with that in different ways. Shaq certainly sulks about people getting the ball to him. Kobe boycotted the media earlier this year as well. These guys all have their days I assure you.
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You mean Milwaukee. In both instances there was no triangle and the offense would go through him. He didn't have superstars like Shaq and a Kobe to "feed".
Kobe doesn't need to be fed. He often creates his own shots. Shaq does need to be fed, but there are times where he is resting, or when he just doesn't start the game with high energy.
The point is that Payton is still capable of 20 points a game when given the right system and opportunities. Jackson should be held responsible for not devising a system that can assist those skills at times when the Lakers are stuck spinning their wheels in the triangle. He tried it in S.A. and it worked quite well. The shifting between the two made it very hard to adjust. I mean we are talking about a team that beat San Antonio four times in a row. That is a major accomplishment. All it took is some flexibility on Jackson's part. It is like once they figured out what worked, they basically swept the Spurs. During the four wins, Payton averaged just over 10 points, which is very good considering Jackson leaves him sitting most fourth quarters for a combination of Fisher, Bryant, and Rush.
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The past is the past. We all know he's been a great player thoughout his career. He's also been a problem everywhere he's played. His pouting and sulking is well documented. No news there.
I agree with you about Phil Jackson. He's stubborn and reluctant to make adjustments to accomodate players. Heck, he wouldn't do it much for Jordan or Pippen. Yeah, Payton could be used better...but the guy just closed his mind to trying to adapt to the offense months ago. His problem is in large part mental.
It is very hard to understand the chemistry that wins. It is almost like being egotistical enough to fight, but not take over. Even the Jackson/Pippen/Jordan teams never swept a finals, like the Lakers have done. They almost always took six games. Yet Jordan didn't win, or even make the playoffs in Washington. It is also clear that he limited the development of guys like Hamilton who are now coming into their own as well.
Maybe Payton needs to get more pissed off. Maybe Jackson is too laid back and that is why the Lakers always seem to give away one. Who knows?!? Jordan and Kobe are arrogant enough to tell Jackson to kiss off at times. Yet it is obvious from Jordan that if unchecked, he can't get to the next level, and also harms team chemistry. Payton had a serious problem in Seattle. The team didn't want to go get him any complimentary players to run for the playoffs. So he left. Garnett threatened the same and you can bet the Magic are working their butts off to insure the same for McGrady out of fear he will bolt. Heck even ol'Malone was considered a complainer for screaming about the lack of a true center in Utah forever. These guys all get labeled crybabies any time they don't put the whole team on their back and carry them alone to the promised land. Payton is a good honest, competive guy in my book.
It will be interesting to see what the off-season brings. I personally would love for the Lakers to get rid of their log jam of small forwards/large guards. They have a ton of them. It is clear that is what Jackson likes for the triangle though. However they need a true backup center/power forward badly. They also need more quickness in their guards. (Bye Fisher, Fox, at a minimum)
You are welcome to name for me any season in the past in which Shaq had to face 7'6" Yao Ming, then move on to the dual seven footers in San Antonio. (Duncan and Nestor)
Well, considering Yao has been in the playoffs just once... So what are you debating here? That the west has never had so many big men(debatable)? Stocking up on big men is new(It isn't)?In the past Shaq has had to face Duncan AND Robinson, Divac ,Wallace, Mutombo, O'Neal(if you mention Madsen) and their "companies". Who cares about the names and the sizes.....Shaq didn't seem to have a problem with any of them before......Hmmm
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Yep, I can see why Shaq is slowing up some.I mean they've only scoured the entire planet looking for big men to put up against him.
Apparently you can't. It's called getting older. It's obvious except to you.
There's even stats that prove his numbers go down when he doesn't get rest these days. Since he's not injured....it's called aging. He's 32 now, and he has taken a beating (as well as dishing it) all his pro career.
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Shaq does need to drop some weight. It would lengthen his career and improve his athleticism. But the point is that Shaq has never been super healthy. You look at his entire career stats and I don't see many 80 game seasons, oh, since his rookie year or so.
He's overweight, everybody agrees on that. Pretty obvious. So what if he's never been "super" healthy? His lack of "super" health didn't bother him in those Finals. Three Finals MVPs
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Why don't you also look and see how many 80+ game seaons Kobe has as well? The Lakers have gone long and deep into the playoffs for years now. Those games add up. They even add up on a 25 year old Kobe Bryant.
Definitely.I know Shaq has a lot of extra mileage because of the success of the Lakers....another reason his explosiveness isn't there the way it used to be. It's catching up to him.
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Also Shaq wasn't consistantly going against multiple seven footers all the time. I mean think about Sacramento with Vlade, (master offensive flopper) Brad Miller and also Chris Webber.
Miller is a first year Kings player. They didn't meet in the playoffs.
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He is listed at 340 this year. (Which is really probably 365) Many thought he was at about 400 last year when the Lakers were eliminated. Of course the best motivation for Shaq to hit the weights would be having to argue about his contract extension after Kobe takes MVP honors in the finals.
Shaq said he was going to do that last year. Did he look to you like he came into camp in shape? Did it look like he worked on his freethrows? lol Don't hold your breath.
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Actually Shaq has worked quite hard on free throws. I've heard claim of a wrist injury that keeps him from getting a soft touch. I've also just seen the guy shooting and can't think of anyone else who is so large, they make the basketball look like a softball in their hands.
He works on freethrows ....when he feels like it. Check out his percentages. (He;s doing ok so far by the way).
No, not that BS about his size and the softball/golfball again. Size doesn't seem to bother Yao(EIGHTY %)who is much taller does it? Or Ilgauskas(74.6%) who is 7-3. Or other big men like Nowitski(88%), Miller, Okur, Magloire, Collins, R. Wallace, Collins, Blount. All 6-11 or taller. All making over 70% freethrows.
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Most players (Shaq included) play better with more rest.
No kidding. Shaq's numbers are noticeably lower though. Google it.
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I guess the MVP, Kevin Garnett must be going downhill since he couldn't beat the Lakers on two days rest after a game seven.
Yeah, I'm sure he wasn't tired after a 32 point, 21 rebound game 7. "He" couldn't beat the Lakers? As if only one player suits up. Come on, you can do better than that.. Maybe you should check Garnett's stats. even though he played a ton of minutes.
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Well most teams run the pick and roll with a forward. Teams intentionally use their centers with Shaq just to attempt to get him in foul trouble. Shaq won't let himself get in foul trouble and the result isn't just Payton looking bad.
uhh, no. Most teams run the pick and roll because it's very effective against the Lakers in large part because Shaq just won't step out to try to defend it and not because they want to get him in foul trouble. Reason number 2 is to try to get him out of the lane and away from the basket.
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Parker, Bibby, Hudson, you name any small, very quick guard and the Lakers have trouble with them. It is partially because of Jackson's preference for guards. .
Kind of. The Lakers have had problems with the pick and roll for years. Even before Jackson got here. The good thing was only a few teams had it in their game plan until maybe 3, years ago. Now everybody knows it hurts the Lakers so they use it as much as they can.
More than the size of the guards, it has to do with the ability to play tight defense. Fisher isn't tall, and he has problems with the picks aswell.
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Kobe doesn't need to be fed. He often creates his own shots.
Correct. He doesn't need to be fed(although to me getting him the ball at he offensive end qualifies as "feeding" it to him)....In the right scenario he shouldn't have to bring the ball up the court. It tires him too much. The only reason he's done it in the past, is out of necessity because we didn't have good ball handlers. That's where Payton comes in.
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Shaq does need to be fed, but there are times where he is resting, or when he just doesn't start the game with high energy.
He's resting during the game? That's a good one. I love Shaq, but he's is a lazy player. You just don't want to see it. If Shaq played with the passion of a Garnett or a Mourning he'd average 35-16-5...EASY. If he worked hard to be in shape he wouldn't need to rest during games.
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The point is that Payton is still capable of 20 points a game when given the right system and opportunities. Jackson should be held responsible for not devising a system that can assist those skills at times when the Lakers are stuck spinning their wheels in the triangle.
No, the point is Payton didn't want to learn the system. He said that they wouldn't need it until the playoffs...to paraphrase. I'm with you that Jackson should've been more accomodating....but he wasn't so Payton pouted, made it known through the press that he wasn't happy, that it wasn't why he "came here" and didn't make an effort to deal with it.
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It is very hard to understand the chemistry that wins. It is almost like being egotistical enough to fight, but not take over. Even the Jackson/Pippen/Jordan teams never swept a finals, like the Lakers have done.
Well, the Bulls played better teams than the lousy Nets in the finals.
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Maybe Payton needs to get more pissed off. Maybe Jackson is too laid back and that is why the Payton is a good honest, competive guy in my book.
Payton needs to show up and be a team player period. Can't score? Play defense...or at least give the effort. On the bench? Cheer your teammates on and stop sulking.
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It will be interesting to see what the off-season brings. I personally would love for the Lakers to get rid of their log jam of small forwards/large guards. They have a ton of them. It is clear that is what Jackson likes for the triangle though. However they need a true backup center/power forward badly. They also need more quickness in their guards. (Bye Fisher, Fox, at a minimum)
I don't even want to think that far. With Kobe opting out and his legal problems.
Dr. Buss has already made it clear he'll do anything to keep Kobe. That's why they called off negotiations with Jackson. Kobe is on record as saying he doesn't care for Jackson as a person. As for what you correctly pointed out about the need for a back up center.....you ready for some Vlade? lol Trust me, it could happen. We;re way over the cap. Nothing much we can do unless more players are willing to take less money, which is almost impossible with younger players.
As far as Fox goes...he's a small forward. Not 100% healthwise right now either.
I love Fisher. He;s not the most consistent, but he's clutch and he always plays hard. He's a great guy too.
Next time, let's take a topic or two at a time. These long posts are killing me. In between typing and doing other things it's taken me a couple hours to finish this post. zzzzzzzzzzz
As a life lifelong Lakers fan, OUCH... That was an ass-whuppen! If, if, if; the Lakers can win Sunday, They can win it all in. Yeah, I know, optimist.
That being said, props to the Pistons. What a team! I knew they weren't being given enough credit. Didn't think they were good enough to dominate the Lakers like this! Wow...
Dr. Buss and Kobe may very well not think highly of Coach Jackson, however, Jeanie Buss sure likes him...
I have not been following, but I am extremely happy that the Lakers are eating shit. Hopefully this summer will be capped off by the rapist being shown the inside of a prison cell and Karl and Gary riding off into the sunset.
What do you think about this hypothesis: Jackson makes a stink about fouls before the game to the press and then instructs his players to loosen up on the fouls thinking that he has both an excuse and has somehow made the refs nervous about calling Laker fouls . . .
Its a pretty preposterous idea but somehow it might be, I mean look at the way the Lakers were playing, George had two fouls in the first minute, at one point they had 20 fouls when the Pistons had 8 . . .
Good game, anytime I get to picture Jack Nicholson angry over his team makes me a little happier
I have not been following, but I am extremely happy that the Lakers are eating shit. Hopefully this summer will be capped off by the rapist being shown the inside of a prison cell and Karl and Gary riding off into the sunset.
I'll bet you your wedding knives that Kobe goes free.
Pfflam: I am on record after Game 1 for saying the Lakers were not gonna come back for another game in LA. For the first time in a while I saw fear and frustration in their eyes. Add the injuries to Malone and Fisher and thingsmight've been different. But that's a hypothetical. All credit to the Pistons and their very classy coach Larry Brown.
About the referees,,,anyone who knows basketball knows that the refs are letting the Pistons get away with what they're not letting the Lakers get away with.
So much for those conspiracy theories.
Look at the second quarter. The Pistons shot almost nothing but freethrows the whole quarter. Without the freethrows the Lakers open up a nice lead for sure as they were shooting around 50% to the Pistons below 30%.
What do you think about this hypothesis: Jackson makes a stink about fouls before the game to the press and then instructs his players to loosen up on the fouls thinking that he has both an excuse and has somehow made the refs nervous about calling Laker fouls . . .
Nah, that's just part of coaching. In fact there is a little bit of anger around here over the fact that Jackson hadn't been complaining enough about the disparity in fouls.
Comments
Originally posted by Gilsch
Jackson is on record defending his policy of not playing rookies unless he's forced to. It's quite retarded IMO because history is full of rookies making significant contributions to teams. Maybe Jeannie Buss should play him a video of Magic taking over in the 1980 finals.
Also if Jackson did this, he could get rid of his "can't develop players" rap, but of course it could be entirely true.
If Ben Wallace starts to tire, look for the Pistons to double team more.In fact I think that's what's gonna happen in Detroit. Keep the ball out of Shaq's hands and make the others....or what's left of them, beat you. Detroit have enough bodies to keep Shaq busy.
I agree that Detroit has a lot of big men. That is in part why Shaq isn't just springing into slams anymore. I mean any foul that actually knocks Shaq off his shot would be a full blown flagrant on anyone else.
I know I go over this over and over, but so few people realize how huge Shaq truly is in terms of size and muscle. I mean they list him at 340 and snicker about it. Most centers on opposing teams actually weigh as much as Karl Malone does. (about 260) The point is these guys are laying full blown bodies on Shaq to knock him off his shoot. They are laying into him in ways that would put anyone else flat on their back.
You are correct about the number of shots. That's not indicative of Shaq not having lost a step though. I gave you a good example before. If you want proof, watch a video of the last Lakers championship. Back then, Shaq would in ONE motion grab a rebound and explode up for a monster dunk. These days he has a lot more layups.
Want more proof that Shaq has lost a step? Check his numbers in the playoffs for games with one day of rest vs. games with two days of rest. There is almost a seven point difference. Heck, he only had 7 total rebounds last night.....on one day of rest. We could attribute part of that to poor conditioning...but do you really think Shaq will work in the offseason and get in better shape? I think there's a better chance of the Clippers winning a ring before that happens.
Shaq still dunks, even off alley-oop passes a couple times a game. I still see him catch the ball WELL above the rim and slam it home with lots of regularity. He gets lay ups now because coaches have complained about Shaq parking in the paint, and also that he commits offensive charging. Those are both harder to call off someone making a layup than someone slamming the ball down so hard the building shakes.
I do think Shaq will work harder on his off-season conditioning for a couple reasons. One, he has the guy who, if he plays another season or so, really will be the Most Dominant EVER in terms of points playing right next to him. Shaq can see in some ways, a future version of himself in terms of health in terms of what aging can do. Older guys like Karl look very fit, but are limited physically in ways that aren't discussed much. They also have a lot of work to still be able to do what they do. Shaq has likely had to world's best wake up call in terms of example sitting right next to him.
You know what? I totally disagree with you on this one, but I totally hope you're right. Here's why I disagree with you.
First of all, the one thing you can always count on is effort. Defense is mostly effort. You can have a bad shooting night, but you can always play hard(unless you're the Jeckyll and Hyde Lakers of 2003-2004). The Pistons are a defense/effort first team. That's the one thing you know they will bring. Whether they have a good shooting night or not, is another.
Last night they played 10 players. Brown will keep rotating the players to keep them from getting too tired.
I think I am right on this because of how the Lakers took apart San Antonio. San Antonio's defense was rated right there with Detroit's. San Antonio was also seen as a deep team with plenty players to spread the minutes around on. Also people start hyping things so hard that people forget the reality of situations. People think the other team is just going to blow away or something. Even in 2002, the Lakers were taken to seven games by the Kings. The thing that makes it so hard to beat the Lakers is that Kobe and Shaq are such a consistant one-two punch. Over the course of a series they have a different guy break out here or there while also finding a way to stop the other teams lesser players. The effects are not immediate, but they make themselves known over the course of the series.
I felt bad for him as well. The triangle takes time to learn, and even more time when you don't make much of an effort all season to try to learn it. I don't know about the "good help defensively". Payton has been torched by Billups in both games, and his offensive contribution has been almost non-existent. He had more turnovers than points last night. Three TOs to 2 points.
Payton doesn't get helped nearly enough by Shaq on pick and rolls. Shaq hates defending them. That is what happened to Payton on S.A. as well. He screamed about it, still took the blame, got some help and got some plays called for him. The results were 10-11 points a game and Parker disappearing as a deciding factor.
There is nothing wrong with needing plays called for you, screens, etc. for scoring. The number of guys who can score at will in the NBA are very small. Jackson should show more flexibility in his play calling and selection. There have been dozens of times this year where the Lakers haven't been able to get their offense going for long stretches.
Jackson simply won't take them out of the triangle or change anything during these times. He forces them to grunt through it. What usually happens is Kobe gets them out of it just by breaking the triangle/called plays and taking over with pure freelancing. He goes about 4-10/11 during these stretches and keeps them in the game. The reality is that he can get away with that because he is Kobe. Payton tosses the offense and starts backing people down, he gets benched. However there are periods where Jackson should be willing to run something different. He did it when their backs were against the wall in S.A. but it shouldn't take that to force him to actually design and run plays that work off the strengths of his players.
There is no question we need Payton more than ever considering Fisher is hurt and Rush is just a spot up shooter(can't create his own shots).
But what is Payton giving us? Torched by Billups(22 and 27pts.)....
Can't play the pick and roll which messes up our defense....
And a "grand" offensive output of 2.5 pts.(5 total)along with 2.5 turnovers(5 total)and 4.5 personal fouls per game. That's horrible for almost 30 minutes per game. Nah, let me rephrase that...that's a ******* joke. Payton needs to quit his pouting and grow some ***** and start playing some basketball.
Come on, even Kobe is frustrated with Phil. Payton has average 18 points a game for 14 years. Payton is a nine time All-Star. He averaged 20 and 19 points per game respectively with two entirely different teams last year. (Seattle and Minnisota) Payton has been playing basketball in a great manner for long enough to have proven his worth. The reality is that the Lakers need to utilize him much better. Payton is a proven scorer with almost 20,000 points. When they called plays for him in San Antonio, he scored. But you can't complain that all he gets is cleaning up the garbage and doesn't manage as much as he could if he were the first option instead of the fourth.
Nick
I would say that I think that Shaq is slowing down in general . . . I think that at this point in the season if you are not conditioned while playing as much as he does then no off-season conditioning would do any more.
I also think that what your saying about Jackson's coaching backs up the saying about his 'team developement' I'm not sure that he deserves the record that he has: any decent coach with the players that he has had would have such a record.
Originally posted by trumptman
I agree that Detroit has a lot of big men. That is in part why Shaq isn't just springing into slams anymore. I mean any foul that actually knocks Shaq off his shot would be a full blown flagrant on anyone else.
I don't get your point. Shaq didn't mind exploding for slams against anyone when he was younger. Most WC teams have through the years loaded up with big men because of Shaq. It didn't make a difference in the past.
The point is these guys are laying full blown bodies on Shaq to knock him off his shoot. They are laying into him in ways that would put anyone else flat on their back.
That's been the case since....always.
Shaq still dunks, even off alley-oop passes a couple times a game. I still see him catch the ball WELL above the rim and slam it home with lots of regularity.
Of course he still dunks. Who ever said he didn't? You need to see videos of Shaq 2 years ago though. Big difference. He doesn't have that explosive lift all the time anymore.
He gets lay ups now because coaches have complained about Shaq parking in the paint, and also that he commits offensive charging.
I do think Shaq will work harder on his off-season conditioning for a couple reasons. One, he has the guy who, if he plays another season or so, really will be the Most Dominant EVER in terms of points playing right next to him.
I hope you're right. Though Shaq probably wouldn't survive 20 minutes of Malone's workout. lol Malone is amazing.
Shaq can see in some ways, a future version of himself in terms of health in terms of what aging can do. Older guys like Karl look very fit, but are limited physically in ways that aren't discussed much. They also have a lot of work to still be able to do what they do. Shaq has likely had to world's best wake up call in terms of example sitting right next to him.
I'd love to agree with you here....but considering we're talking about the same guy who has never been bothered to work on his freethrows consistently..... "I'll make them when they count".
I think I am right on this because of how the Lakers took apart San Antonio. San Antonio's defense was rated right there with Detroit's. San Antonio was also seen as a deep team with plenty players to spread the minutes around on.
Well, you're forgetting all the days off between games they had in the first rounds. Games were very spread out (at least till the first 3 games vs. SA in round 2). The whole team is more beat up now. Shaq's lack of conditioning, which you have acknowledged, is becoming a factor. Like I said earlier, the stats showed much better numbers in games that Shaq had more than one day of rest between games. It's a fact. Google it and you'll see.
Payton doesn't get helped nearly enough by Shaq on pick and rolls. Shaq hates defending them. That is what happened to Payton on S.A. as well. He screamed about it, still took the blame, got some help and got some plays called for him. The results were 10-11 points a game and Parker disappearing as a deciding factor.
Correct. Shaq is just lazy defending them, period. He's always been lazy putting pressure on outside shooting big men aswell.
Payton could use more help, no doubt. He wasn't playing all that badly in the first half of game 2. He was going around screens, putting a hand in Billups face etc. The third quarter was a joke though. He was staying under screens for some reason and then he was committing dumb fouls and turnovers like the traveling call and when he picked up his dribble before crossing the halfway line. Bad.
By the way, Jackson was very inflexible about the triangle...until the Spurs series where he started incorporating more pick and rolls...in large part to get Payton going. He's allowing him to post up his man too....he just can't get going. He could at least cheer the team on when he's on the bench. But nothing. He just sulks there.
Come on, even Kobe is frustrated with Phil.
Yeah.... I know Kobe actually dislikes Phil. He's said so himself.
Payton has average 18 points a game for 14 years. Payton is a nine time All-Star. He averaged 20 and 19 points per game respectively with two entirely different teams last year. (Seattle and Minnisota)
You mean Milwaukee. In both instances there was no triangle and the offense would go through him. He didn't have superstars like Shaq and a Kobe to "feed".
Payton has been playing basketball in a great manner for long enough to have proven his worth.
The past is the past. We all know he's been a great player thoughout his career. He's also been a problem everywhere he's played. His pouting and sulking is well documented. No news there.
I agree with you about Phil Jackson. He's stubborn and reluctant to make adjustments to accomodate players. Heck, he wouldn't do it much for Jordan or Pippen. Yeah, Payton could be used better...but the guy just closed his mind to trying to adapt to the offense months ago. His problem is in large part mental.
Good discussion.
Originally posted by pfflam
I'm not sure that he deserves the record that he has: any decent coach with the players that he has had would have such a record.
No way. Before Jackson, the Bulls hadn't won anything. Before Jackson, Kobe and Shaq hadn't won anything either.
I think you're way wrong.
So he's been blessed with a lot of talent. How many coaches can you say that about...yet won nothing?? Tons.
How many coaches could've handled Jordan's ego? Pippen? Shaq and Kobe? Coaching includes managing personalities aswell.
Originally posted by Gilsch
I don't get your point. Shaq didn't mind exploding for slams against anyone when he was younger. Most WC teams have through the years loaded up with big men because of Shaq. It didn't make a difference in the past. That's been the case since....always.
Since always? You name for me another season in which the west was so good it had six teams win 50 games. The West hasn't just loaded up on big men. It has stolen all of them from the entire East coast. The East looks so tiny in comparison. I mean even look at the Pistons themselves. Rasheed came from Portland as a forward and he is actually 2 inches taller than Ben Wallace, their center. Do you think Brian Grant could last in the West? Even Jermaine O'neal isn't a true center. Sacramento for example has multiple seven foot tall true centers. San Antonio has multiple seven tall true centers. The West is the land of the trees. It is one thing when A team loads up, but now every single one has done so.
That's been the case since....always.
(regarding fouling Shaq hard)
You are welcome to name for me any season in the past in which Shaq had to face 7'6" Yao Ming, then move on to the dual seven footers in San Antonio. (Duncan and Nestor) The Timberwolves were not as threatening in terms of size, but gave Shaq plenty of fouls. Shaq couldn't get calls when Madsen was practically molesting the guy. (I think titty twisters are fouls last I checked) They also allowed Madsen and others to do a lot more than just body check Shaq. They were allowing them to practically take a three point football stance and launch into the guys kidneys. Sadly Shaq still had offensive charges called on him for knocking down the Madsen and others when he would turn toward them and knock them across the face with his elbow. (Since his face was down by Shaqs waist thanks to the afore mentioned football stances/defense)
Then in the finals Shaq has two Wallaces, Campbell who used to be Shaq's back up (at 7 ft tall) and one other 7ft'er as well.
Yep, I can see why Shaq is slowing up some.
Of course he still dunks. Who ever said he didn't? You need to see videos of Shaq 2 years ago though. Big difference. He doesn't have that explosive lift all the time anymore.
Shaq does need to drop some weight. It would lengthen his career and improve his athleticism. But the point is that Shaq has never been super healthy. You look at his entire career stats and I don't see many 80 game seasons, oh, since his rookie year or so.
Why don't you also look and see how many 80+ game seaons Kobe has as well? The Lakers have gone long and deep into the playoffs for years now. Those games add up. They even add up on a 25 year old Kobe Bryant.
Coaches have been complaining about that since...always. That had never stopped Shaq from dunking on someone.
Things can be cumulative as well. The Lakers have had more help in the past, so Shaq's foul trouble wouldn't have been so terrible if he picked up the odd foul. Also Shaq wasn't consistantly going against multiple seven footers all the time. I mean think about Sacramento with Vlade, (master offensive flopper) Brad Miller and also Chris Webber. One offensive foul slip up can seriously harm your chances at winning with a team like that. Same thing with San Antonio who now has three seven footers on roster.
I hope you're right. Though Shaq probably wouldn't survive 20 minutes of Malone's workout. lol Malone is amazing.
Malone is insane. Shaq can watch someone like Malone who is still playing versus someone like say Barkley, who didn't. I think Shaq will start getting into better condition. He is listed at 340 this year. (Which is really probably 365) Many thought he was at about 400 last year when the Lakers were eliminated. There is a limit to how much weight you can lose in a healthy manner off-season as well. If Shaq drops another 30 lbs safely he will be even better of course. Of course the best motivation for Shaq to hit the weights would be having to argue about his contract extension after Kobe takes MVP honors in the finals.
I'd love to agree with you here....but considering we're talking about the same guy who has never been bothered to work on his freethrows consistently..... "I'll make them when they count". Also, I think Malone is a freak of nature which allows him to work so hard both in the off and regular seasons.
Actually Shaq has worked quite hard on free throws. I've heard claim of a wrist injury that keeps him from getting a soft touch. I've also just seen the guy shooting and can't think of anyone else who is so large, they make the basketball look like a softball in their hands. Also you don't think that he would find a way to do the one thing that would stop everyone from hacking away at him if he could? As for Malone, yep he is a total freak of nature. I hope he plays for several more years.
Well, you're forgetting all the days off between games they had in the first rounds. Games were very spread out (at least till the first 3 games vs. SA in round 2). The whole team is more beat up now. Shaq's lack of conditioning, which you have acknowledged, is becoming a factor. Like I said earlier, the stats showed much better numbers in games that Shaq had more than one day of rest between games. It's a fact. Google it and you'll see.
The same is true for the Pistons. It could even be argued that as the game wore on, the Lakers got better in part, because Detroit needs so much energy just to sustain themselves against the Lakers. I mean just one or two minutes of slightly less intense energy and bam Shaq and Kobe come swooping in from all corners as we saw in OT. Most players (Shaq included) play better with more rest. I guess the MVP, Kevin Garnett must be going downhill since he couldn't beat the Lakers on two days rest after a game seven.
But again I see the Pistons playing longer minutes than the Lakers. It might take a while to add up, but it will.
Correct. Shaq is just lazy defending them, period. He's always been lazy putting pressure on outside shooting big men aswell.
Well most teams run the pick and roll with a forward. Teams intentionally use their centers with Shaq just to attempt to get him in foul trouble. Shaq won't let himself get in foul trouble and the result isn't just Payton looking bad. Parker, Bibby, Hudson, you name any small, very quick guard and the Lakers have trouble with them. It is partially because of Jackson's preference for guards. He likes longer guys like Harper, etc. He even has Kobe bring the ball up most of the time because he likes his guards taller.
Payton could use more help, no doubt. He wasn't playing all that badly in the first half of game 2. He was going around screens, putting a hand in Billups face etc. The third quarter was a joke though. He was staying under screens for some reason and then he was committing dumb fouls and turnovers like the traveling call and when he picked up his dribble before crossing the halfway line. Bad.
By the way, Jackson was very inflexible about the triangle...until the Spurs series where he started incorporating more pick and rolls...in large part to get Payton going. He's allowing him to post up his man too....he just can't get going. He could at least cheer the team on when he's on the bench. But nothing. He just sulks there.
Look, no one is perfect. Kobe still forces two or three attempts a game. The point isn't even that Payton can't have a bad quarter or game. The point is, as you mentioned as well, that Jackson will not make adjustments that would allow the Lakers to confound their opposition and also get more from the players he has. Everyone deals with that in different ways. Shaq certainly sulks about people getting the ball to him. Kobe boycotted the media earlier this year as well. These guys all have their days I assure you.
You mean Milwaukee. In both instances there was no triangle and the offense would go through him. He didn't have superstars like Shaq and a Kobe to "feed".
Kobe doesn't need to be fed. He often creates his own shots. Shaq does need to be fed, but there are times where he is resting, or when he just doesn't start the game with high energy.
The point is that Payton is still capable of 20 points a game when given the right system and opportunities. Jackson should be held responsible for not devising a system that can assist those skills at times when the Lakers are stuck spinning their wheels in the triangle. He tried it in S.A. and it worked quite well. The shifting between the two made it very hard to adjust. I mean we are talking about a team that beat San Antonio four times in a row. That is a major accomplishment. All it took is some flexibility on Jackson's part. It is like once they figured out what worked, they basically swept the Spurs. During the four wins, Payton averaged just over 10 points, which is very good considering Jackson leaves him sitting most fourth quarters for a combination of Fisher, Bryant, and Rush.
The past is the past. We all know he's been a great player thoughout his career. He's also been a problem everywhere he's played. His pouting and sulking is well documented. No news there.
I agree with you about Phil Jackson. He's stubborn and reluctant to make adjustments to accomodate players. Heck, he wouldn't do it much for Jordan or Pippen. Yeah, Payton could be used better...but the guy just closed his mind to trying to adapt to the offense months ago. His problem is in large part mental.
It is very hard to understand the chemistry that wins. It is almost like being egotistical enough to fight, but not take over. Even the Jackson/Pippen/Jordan teams never swept a finals, like the Lakers have done. They almost always took six games. Yet Jordan didn't win, or even make the playoffs in Washington. It is also clear that he limited the development of guys like Hamilton who are now coming into their own as well.
Maybe Payton needs to get more pissed off. Maybe Jackson is too laid back and that is why the Lakers always seem to give away one. Who knows?!? Jordan and Kobe are arrogant enough to tell Jackson to kiss off at times. Yet it is obvious from Jordan that if unchecked, he can't get to the next level, and also harms team chemistry. Payton had a serious problem in Seattle. The team didn't want to go get him any complimentary players to run for the playoffs. So he left. Garnett threatened the same and you can bet the Magic are working their butts off to insure the same for McGrady out of fear he will bolt. Heck even ol'Malone was considered a complainer for screaming about the lack of a true center in Utah forever. These guys all get labeled crybabies any time they don't put the whole team on their back and carry them alone to the promised land. Payton is a good honest, competive guy in my book.
It will be interesting to see what the off-season brings. I personally would love for the Lakers to get rid of their log jam of small forwards/large guards. They have a ton of them. It is clear that is what Jackson likes for the triangle though. However they need a true backup center/power forward badly. They also need more quickness in their guards. (Bye Fisher, Fox, at a minimum)
As you said, Good discussion.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
You are welcome to name for me any season in the past in which Shaq had to face 7'6" Yao Ming, then move on to the dual seven footers in San Antonio. (Duncan and Nestor)
Well, considering Yao has been in the playoffs just once... So what are you debating here? That the west has never had so many big men(debatable)? Stocking up on big men is new(It isn't)?In the past Shaq has had to face Duncan AND Robinson, Divac ,Wallace, Mutombo, O'Neal(if you mention Madsen) and their "companies". Who cares about the names and the sizes.....Shaq didn't seem to have a problem with any of them before......Hmmm
Yep, I can see why Shaq is slowing up some.I mean they've only scoured the entire planet looking for big men to put up against him.
Apparently you can't. It's called getting older. It's obvious except to you.
There's even stats that prove his numbers go down when he doesn't get rest these days. Since he's not injured....it's called aging. He's 32 now, and he has taken a beating (as well as dishing it) all his pro career.
Shaq does need to drop some weight. It would lengthen his career and improve his athleticism. But the point is that Shaq has never been super healthy. You look at his entire career stats and I don't see many 80 game seasons, oh, since his rookie year or so.
He's overweight, everybody agrees on that. Pretty obvious. So what if he's never been "super" healthy? His lack of "super" health didn't bother him in those Finals. Three Finals MVPs
Why don't you also look and see how many 80+ game seaons Kobe has as well? The Lakers have gone long and deep into the playoffs for years now. Those games add up. They even add up on a 25 year old Kobe Bryant.
Definitely.I know Shaq has a lot of extra mileage because of the success of the Lakers....another reason his explosiveness isn't there the way it used to be. It's catching up to him.
Also Shaq wasn't consistantly going against multiple seven footers all the time. I mean think about Sacramento with Vlade, (master offensive flopper) Brad Miller and also Chris Webber.
Miller is a first year Kings player. They didn't meet in the playoffs.
He is listed at 340 this year. (Which is really probably 365) Many thought he was at about 400 last year when the Lakers were eliminated. Of course the best motivation for Shaq to hit the weights would be having to argue about his contract extension after Kobe takes MVP honors in the finals.
Shaq said he was going to do that last year. Did he look to you like he came into camp in shape? Did it look like he worked on his freethrows? lol Don't hold your breath.
Actually Shaq has worked quite hard on free throws. I've heard claim of a wrist injury that keeps him from getting a soft touch. I've also just seen the guy shooting and can't think of anyone else who is so large, they make the basketball look like a softball in their hands.
He works on freethrows ....when he feels like it. Check out his percentages. (He;s doing ok so far by the way).
No, not that BS about his size and the softball/golfball again.
Most players (Shaq included) play better with more rest.
No kidding. Shaq's numbers are noticeably lower though. Google it.
I guess the MVP, Kevin Garnett must be going downhill since he couldn't beat the Lakers on two days rest after a game seven.
Yeah, I'm sure he wasn't tired after a 32 point, 21 rebound game 7. "He" couldn't beat the Lakers? As if only one player suits up.
Well most teams run the pick and roll with a forward. Teams intentionally use their centers with Shaq just to attempt to get him in foul trouble. Shaq won't let himself get in foul trouble and the result isn't just Payton looking bad.
uhh, no. Most teams run the pick and roll because it's very effective against the Lakers in large part because Shaq just won't step out to try to defend it and not because they want to get him in foul trouble. Reason number 2 is to try to get him out of the lane and away from the basket.
Parker, Bibby, Hudson, you name any small, very quick guard and the Lakers have trouble with them. It is partially because of Jackson's preference for guards. .
Kind of. The Lakers have had problems with the pick and roll for years. Even before Jackson got here. The good thing was only a few teams had it in their game plan until maybe 3, years ago. Now everybody knows it hurts the Lakers so they use it as much as they can.
More than the size of the guards, it has to do with the ability to play tight defense. Fisher isn't tall, and he has problems with the picks aswell.
Kobe doesn't need to be fed. He often creates his own shots.
Correct. He doesn't need to be fed(although to me getting him the ball at he offensive end qualifies as "feeding" it to him)....In the right scenario he shouldn't have to bring the ball up the court. It tires him too much. The only reason he's done it in the past, is out of necessity because we didn't have good ball handlers. That's where Payton comes in.
Shaq does need to be fed, but there are times where he is resting, or when he just doesn't start the game with high energy.
He's resting during the game?
The point is that Payton is still capable of 20 points a game when given the right system and opportunities. Jackson should be held responsible for not devising a system that can assist those skills at times when the Lakers are stuck spinning their wheels in the triangle.
No, the point is Payton didn't want to learn the system. He said that they wouldn't need it until the playoffs...to paraphrase. I'm with you that Jackson should've been more accomodating....but he wasn't so Payton pouted, made it known through the press that he wasn't happy, that it wasn't why he "came here" and didn't make an effort to deal with it.
It is very hard to understand the chemistry that wins. It is almost like being egotistical enough to fight, but not take over. Even the Jackson/Pippen/Jordan teams never swept a finals, like the Lakers have done.
Well, the Bulls played better teams than the lousy Nets in the finals.
Maybe Payton needs to get more pissed off. Maybe Jackson is too laid back and that is why the Payton is a good honest, competive guy in my book.
Payton needs to show up and be a team player period. Can't score? Play defense...or at least give the effort. On the bench? Cheer your teammates on and stop sulking.
It will be interesting to see what the off-season brings. I personally would love for the Lakers to get rid of their log jam of small forwards/large guards. They have a ton of them. It is clear that is what Jackson likes for the triangle though. However they need a true backup center/power forward badly. They also need more quickness in their guards. (Bye Fisher, Fox, at a minimum)
I don't even want to think that far. With Kobe opting out and his legal problems.
Dr. Buss has already made it clear he'll do anything to keep Kobe. That's why they called off negotiations with Jackson. Kobe is on record as saying he doesn't care for Jackson as a person. As for what you correctly pointed out about the need for a back up center.....you ready for some Vlade? lol Trust me, it could happen. We;re way over the cap. Nothing much we can do unless more players are willing to take less money, which is almost impossible with younger players.
As far as Fox goes...he's a small forward. Not 100% healthwise right now either.
I love Fisher. He;s not the most consistent, but he's clutch and he always plays hard. He's a great guy too.
Next time, let's take a topic or two at a time. These long posts are killing me.
As it is, it's 2-1, but there is no reason to believe at this point the Lakers can win the series. Detroit is completely dominating them.
Kept the Lakers under 70 in the Finals for the first time ever!!
Awesome!
I can just picture Jack Nicholson reaching for the Pepto Bismol
In fact I couldn't and still can't understand how so many people and "experts" favored the 2004 Lakers so much.
Congrats to the Pistons for showing us what a team who plays with heart and passion looks like.
Shaq, in a must win game with so many bricks had a whopping 8 rebounds. He had a whopping 7 in Game 2 in LA. Lazy ****.
I have seen nothing so far to believe this series is going back to LA. Nothing.
Go Pistons
That being said, props to the Pistons. What a team! I knew they weren't being given enough credit. Didn't think they were good enough to dominate the Lakers like this! Wow...
Dr. Buss and Kobe may very well not think highly of Coach Jackson, however, Jeanie Buss sure likes him...
Man, she sure is purdee...
What do you think about this hypothesis: Jackson makes a stink about fouls before the game to the press and then instructs his players to loosen up on the fouls thinking that he has both an excuse and has somehow made the refs nervous about calling Laker fouls . . .
Its a pretty preposterous idea but somehow it might be, I mean look at the way the Lakers were playing, George had two fouls in the first minute, at one point they had 20 fouls when the Pistons had 8 . . .
Good game, anytime I get to picture Jack Nicholson angry over his team makes me a little happier
Originally posted by groverat
I have not been following, but I am extremely happy that the Lakers are eating shit. Hopefully this summer will be capped off by the rapist being shown the inside of a prison cell and Karl and Gary riding off into the sunset.
I'll bet you your wedding knives that Kobe goes free.
Nick
About the referees,,,anyone who knows basketball knows that the refs are letting the Pistons get away with what they're not letting the Lakers get away with.
So much for those conspiracy theories.
Look at the second quarter. The Pistons shot almost nothing but freethrows the whole quarter. Without the freethrows the Lakers open up a nice lead for sure as they were shooting around 50% to the Pistons below 30%.
Originally posted by pfflam
What do you think about this hypothesis: Jackson makes a stink about fouls before the game to the press and then instructs his players to loosen up on the fouls thinking that he has both an excuse and has somehow made the refs nervous about calling Laker fouls . . .
Nah, that's just part of coaching. In fact there is a little bit of anger around here over the fact that Jackson hadn't been complaining enough about the disparity in fouls.