the iMac G5 or G4?

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
after i read this:

MacNN:



Apple said that it does not expect the G5 to be available in PowerBooks "anytime soon..certainly not before the end of the year" and noted similar challenges for the iMac.



i started to realize that we propobly will not see G5 in iMac, but when i read this:



Delivering Higher Performance: The e600 and e700 Cores and Platforms

The next planned step in Freescale?s performance roadmap is the e600 core and corresponding e600 platform. An enhanced version of the high-performance G4 core used in the award-winning, high-performance MPC74xx family of PowerPC host processors, the e600 core is planned to scale beyond 2 GHz and to support chip multiprocessing (CMP) while maintaining full compatibility with the PowerPC instruction set architecture. Like its G4 predecessor, the superscalar e600 core is designed to issue four instructions per clock cycle (three instructions plus one branch) into eleven independent execution units, and to include a full 128-bit implementation of Freescale's advanced AltiVec Single Instruction Multiple Data (SIMD) vector processing technology.



Freescale Semiconductor also disclosed today at SNDF its plans to develop the next-generation 32/64-bit e700 PowerPC core and corresponding e700 platform. Processor products engineered around Freescale?s forthcoming e700 SoC platform are planned to be capable of running both 32-bit and 64-bit software and scaling to 3 GHz and beyond in next-generation process technologies.





i started to speculate that the reason of new iMac delay is this.. freescale will introduce e600 or e700 and they exprerience some turbulence right now..



what do you think?
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 104
    pbpb Posts: 4,233member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by danko

    Freescale Semiconductor also disclosed today at SNDF its plans to develop the next-generation 32/64-bit e700 PowerPC core and corresponding e700 platform. Processor products engineered around Freescale?s forthcoming e700 SoC platform are planned to be capable of running both 32-bit and 64-bit software and scaling to 3 GHz and beyond in next-generation process technologies.



    Can you provide some link for those? Is it the old news, well known here, or something new?
  • Reply 2 of 104
    auroraaurora Posts: 1,142member
    I think Motorola is why Apple has been getting hammered for years by Intel/AMD. Lots of promises and little substance. They are why Apple had to get another cpu maker involved in the first place otherwise we would have Dual G4s at 1.5 in todays Powermacs. Moto/Freescale whatever is why Apple is now known as a Great software maker but has the SLOWEST hardware. G4 gets a lion share of the blame.
  • Reply 3 of 104
    ipodandimacipodandimac Posts: 3,273member
    iMac G5--the delay makes perfect sense if the processor is any cause. By September the Power Macs should be caught up in supply/demand, so it makes sense.
  • Reply 4 of 104
    dankodanko Posts: 15member
    if imac will get G5, that will propobly will steal a lot of customers who wanted to buy a G5 PowerMac.. PowerMac sales decrease not increase.. so i doub that apple will introduce G5 on iMac.. G5 will be only on PowerUser machines.. and e600 on concumer based machines.



    and then we have Freescale.. freescale is the new company, with "some" new people.. that means new blood, new thinking..



    e600 (G4+ or whatever it will be called) platform is what we will see in iMac and next PB update. e600 will be beetween 2-3Ghz...



    i dont think SJ/Apple want to release a 2Ghz G5 on iMac for less money then PM G5 dual 1.8mhz.. that will kill PM sales..



    if you look at Freescales roadmap you can see that G2/603e and G3 will also be boost up.. propobly for some low-end home electronics from Apple.. otherwise why should Freescale bother to develop them when Apple just want to use G5?!



    Kormac77.. give us some info about iMac.. i think you know..



    then we have a e700, a 64-bit G4 processor.. that means that PowerBooks will not have G5, they will have cheaper and less power hungry e700 processor than G5 monster. and all other consumer based products will have e600...
  • Reply 5 of 104
    I suspect the September iMac will be a G4 but with an updated form factor. If Apple is liquid cooling towers, I can't believe they are going to put a G5 in an iMac.



    Personally, I doubt we'll see a G5 iMac before we see a release of Tiger. What's the point of having a 64-bit consumer desktop when you don't have a true 64-bit OS? Look for a G5 iMac a couple months after Tiger hits the shelves.
  • Reply 6 of 104
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    The e600 is just Freescale's name for the G4. It doesn't make sense that they'd be waiting and redesigning the whole machine just to keep a G4 in there.



    And doesn't it make sense that the same problems that prevented them from getting to 3 Ghz with the PowerMac is also delaying the G5 iMac? I don't think there's anything mysterious going on here - things are what they seem.
  • Reply 7 of 104
    3.14163.1416 Posts: 120member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Michael Grey

    What's the point of having a 64-bit consumer desktop when you don't have a true 64-bit OS?



    The same point of having 64-bit professional desktops: the G5 is fast. Until Tiger, its 64-bit capability is a nonissue, but its speed isn't.
  • Reply 8 of 104
    auroraaurora Posts: 1,142member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Michael Grey

    I suspect the September iMac will be a G4 but with an updated form factor. If Apple is liquid cooling towers, I can't believe they are going to put a G5 in an iMac.



    Personally, I doubt we'll see a G5 iMac before we see a release of Tiger. What's the point of having a 64-bit consumer desktop when you don't have a true 64-bit OS? Look for a G5 iMac a couple months after Tiger hits the shelves.




    your philosophy is backwards, you have to have the hardware in place before you can sell and use the software. this is why Imac has to be a 64 bit machine. If not then why have tiger with only 10% of the market able to run it. makes more sense to get out 64 bit machines before releasing tiger. As far as moto/freescale goes it has bothered me that they have the e600 on the map but this could have been done to try to get Apple to buy its products. they new Apple had gotten with IBM and was building a G4 replacement . anyways G4 is ready for the green pastures because if it wasnt it wouldnt be in Emac and ibook.
  • Reply 9 of 104
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    I don't really think there's any credible doubt left about the iMac getting a new architecture. Whether it's a 970 derivative is an open question, mostly hinging on where IBM is with yields at 90nm. Power and heat dissipation are secondary issues, because the iMac is a desktop plugged into a wall: If Apple wants to put a G5 in, they can. The result might look markedly different from the current design, but who expects them to merely tweak the current design? It's over two years old.



    The MPC7448, which is apparently just a 7447 die-shrunk to 90nm, will keep the iBook and the eMac chugging along for a while yet. What's interesting about the G4 core, at this point, is that at 90nm it's small enough, and certainly cool enough, to appear in a dual core variant. A dual core G4 with an onboard memory controller — eliminating the MaxBus bottleneck — and clocked near the 2GHz range would be a good performer. It wouldn't be fully 64 bit, buton the other hand it should be considerably easier to cool than a 970fx. I expect something like this to surface in a PowerBook at some point, although Apple might be tempted to cram dual processors into anything that can't run away fast enough. I don't know.



    We know so little about the future Freescale cores that it's hard to speculate. I know that Freescale higher-ups have gone on record gleefully hinting at summer surprises and a "high performance PowerPC," but there are too many variables there, including the awkward transition to 90nm, to predict anything with any surety.
  • Reply 10 of 104
    The password is consumer. The iMac is not a pro machine. A G5 is great for professionals who can afford the extra benefits that a G5 and tweaked pro software (FCP, Maya, etc.) will bring. But even then they understand thay are paying for a feature they can't fully take advantage of...yet.



    There is no doubt the iMac will eventually get a G5 but putting one in will be an expensive proposition. Until it gets paired with an OS that can take fully advantage of it, there's not much incentive for the home user to shell out the extra cash for it.
  • Reply 11 of 104
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Aurora

    If not then why have tiger with only 10% of the market able to run it.



    TIGER WILL RUN ON G3s



    the 64 bit stuff is just "extra" for people that want (or need) to use it.



    It will be YEARS before Apple has a system that will only run on 64 bit machines, probably about 5 years after they stop selling 32bit computers.
  • Reply 12 of 104
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Michael Grey

    The password is consumer. The iMac is not a pro machine. A G5 is great for professionals who can afford the extra benefits that a G5 and tweaked pro software (FCP, Maya, etc.) will bring. But even then they understand thay are paying for a feature they can't fully take advantage of...yet.



    There is no doubt the iMac will eventually get a G5 but putting one in will be an expensive proposition. Until it gets paired with an OS that can take fully advantage of it, there's not much incentive for the home user to shell out the extra cash for it.




    The fact that it's a consumer machine makes the 64-bitness even less relevant, not more relevant. As pi said above, it's the speed of the chip that's important, not the fact that the OS can use the 64-bitness.
  • Reply 13 of 104
    pbpb Posts: 4,233member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Michael Grey



    There is no doubt the iMac will eventually get a G5 but putting one in will be an expensive proposition. Until it gets paired with an OS that can take fully advantage of it, there's not much incentive for the home user to shell out the extra cash for it.




    Sure, but here is the puzzle: the fact that Tiger is officially now advertised as a 64-bit OS, going to be loaded in all the Apple lines somewhere next year, means that sooner or later the 64-bit hardware will go down to the consumer ranks. This will require major changes in the design of the current machines. The third generation iMac is expected this September, and it will be completely redesigned. Now, if it does not receive a 64-bit processor the time of a major redesign (this September), when it will get it? After 2-3 years? Maybe, I don't know. Or perhaps the redesign will be appropriate so that it can host for now a e600 and subsequently, say next year, its 64-bit variant, the e700. Only problem is that, for the time being, these processors don't exist.
  • Reply 14 of 104
    rickagrickag Posts: 1,626member
    My first thought was, yes, Motorola delay again. Except M.Isobe posted thisover at Arstechnica.



    Quote:

    " Freescale said they will release one more discrete G4+. Because the chip will be pin-compatible with 7447A, Apple can use current mother board design and replace the processor when new chip will be available."



    Not concrete proof the next iMac will use a G5 or derivative, but very convincing, no? If the "Motorola/Freescale stated" next G4 is be pin compatible with the current G4 and Apple was going to use it, then what's the hold up. Wouldn't be the motherboard, shouldn't be heating issues. That would leave a catastrophic failure in the form factor? not likely. Unless people subscribe to the belief the iMac will get PCI express or other cutting edge tech before the towers. also not likely.
  • Reply 15 of 104
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Michael Grey

    The password is consumer. The iMac is not a pro machine. A G5 is great for professionals who can afford the extra benefits that a G5 and tweaked pro software (FCP, Maya, etc.) will bring. But even then they understand thay are paying for a feature they can't fully take advantage of...yet.



    The password is indeed consumer, and if you look at Steve's demos of e.g. iPhoto and iTMS, his great concern with consumer offerings is that they offer instant gratification, instant feedback. The consumer apps he's offering, GarageBand not least among them, make instant feedback a pretty hefty chore. But it's no less useful to consumers than it is to pros to have filters work now, to eliminate progress bars and renders and what-not whenever possible. It's not just convenient, it's user friendly.



    The G5 implies a high-bandwidth overall system, too, which is also mandatory if iPhoto and iMovie and the system itself are going to be throwing data around - and into the GPU as well, as of Tiger.



    Quote:

    There is no doubt the iMac will eventually get a G5 but putting one in will be an expensive proposition. Until it gets paired with an OS that can take fully advantage of it, there's not much incentive for the home user to shell out the extra cash for it.



    There is no evidence that the 970fx is an intrinsically expensive chip. Once yields are good, it shouldn't cost much. It's physically small, and that correlates directly to cost.



    Cooling it is another matter entirely...
  • Reply 16 of 104
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,255member
    I welcome Apple using the freescale chips in iBooks and the low end Powerbooks but the iMac is a midrange system and thus will be competing against the Athlon64. It needs grunt.



    3+1branch is not equal to the 970s 4+1branch. The iMac needs speed. As for cannibalizing the Powermac G5 that's inevitable in some cases. Apple shouldn't be forcing consumers to buy Pro machines to get speed. Expandability yes but speed should be infused amongst the whole Apple lineup.



    I'm more inclined to think the delay in the iMac may be due to either chip availability or design work. Apple just made a huge order for Xserves and they still have to ship the Powermacs as well. Things may be a little tight for a couple of months.
  • Reply 17 of 104
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,752member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    I don't really think there's any credible doubt left about the iMac getting a new architecture. Whether it's a 970 derivative is an open question, mostly hinging on where IBM is with yields at 90nm.



    It is a given that we have a new system coming. I'm thinking that the 970 is not even in the equation. There are a number of reasons for that thought not the least of which would be putting all of ones eggs into one basket. After all the Motorola problems that Apple has had and now the IBM problems I can't see them focusing on just one manufacture. If I was in Jobs shoes I'd want to keep as many manufactures as possible interested in PPC. Unfortunately due to slippage at Apple they can really have more than two on the hook at any one time.



    The other issues revolve around known heat issues with the 970FX. Yes it is an improvement over the 970 but that really isn't saying much. I don't see this as a secondary issue, it is the hallmark of Apples systems that they are power efficient.

    Quote:

    Power and heat dissipation are secondary issues, because the iMac is a desktop plugged into a wall: If Apple wants to put a G5 in, they can. The result might look markedly different from the current design, but who expects them to merely tweak the current design? It's over two years old.



    They can do whatever they want to the design as long as they get the cost down to a point that is very cost effective. It is hard to imagine anyone that is informed about PC's and Apple's products going out an buying the current iMac.

    Quote:



    The MPC7448, which is apparently just a 7447 die-shrunk to 90nm, will keep the iBook and the eMac chugging along for a while yet. What's interesting about the G4 core, at this point, is that at 90nm it's small enough, and certainly cool enough, to appear in a dual core variant. A dual core G4 with an onboard memory controller — eliminating the MaxBus bottleneck — and clocked near the 2GHz range would be a good performer. It wouldn't be fully 64 bit, buton the other hand it should be considerably easier to cool than a 970fx. I expect something like this to surface in a PowerBook at some point, although Apple might be tempted to cram dual processors into anything that can't run away fast enough. I don't know.



    It is very clear that SMP is the wave of the future, Intel has pretty much stated as so. I do wonder if Intel is reacting to developments at IBM or Freescale. Not that either of these manufactures are a big threat to Intel with current products but it is very obvious that it would not take much for either IBM or Freescale to throw 2 cores on a die and still have a cheaper chip than Intel can currently ship. Since SMP offers real advantages to the consumer, it is very likely that much of the hardware world will be SMP very shortly.

    Quote:



    We know so little about the future Freescale cores that it's hard to speculate. I know that Freescale higher-ups have gone on record gleefully hinting at summer surprises and a "high performance PowerPC," but there are too many variables there, including the awkward transition to 90nm, to predict anything with any surety.



    Nothing would be more exciting than to have Freescale introduce a multicore G4 with improved I/O and high clock rates. Done right this could really drive the portable and lowcost markets. The problem is this may not be where Apple is headed. There are real advantages for them if they where to move to 64 bit processing across the board. Now if Freescale is excited about a low power 64 bit machine that is all the better. That would provide incentive for IBM to address their 90nm process and the power hungery design of the 970. It has been rumored on and off that Apple was in the midst of a low power 64 bit design with IBM, maybe that is actually happening with Freescale.
  • Reply 18 of 104
    auroraaurora Posts: 1,142member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by discstickers

    TIGER WILL RUN ON G3s



    the 64 bit stuff is just "extra" for people that want (or need) to use it.



    It will be YEARS before Apple has a system that will only run on 64 bit machines, probably about 5 years after they stop selling 32bit computers.




    My point is the ability to take advantage of what tiger a 64 bit os will offer. Panther runs on G3s but its slow imagine more bloated os.
  • Reply 19 of 104
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Aurora

    My point is the ability to take advantage of what tiger a 64 bit os will offer. Panther runs on G3s but its slow imagine more bloated os.



    I would say that being seriously interested in Tiger's 64 bit features and owning a G3 (or even G4) are mutually exclusive. And I believe that the "bloat" in tiger will be handled, in large part, by the GPU. And if you're still kicking on a Rev A white iBook, maybe it's time to upgrade...
  • Reply 20 of 104
    quagmirequagmire Posts: 558member
    I say G5 is a must for the imac. Even though we all wanted Powermac do be all dual, I think apple had another reason besides the people. The other reason is to get a fast G5 in the imac topping 2.0 Ghz to increase sales for its life saving product. The dual 1.8 Ghz G5 Powermac will still be alot faster then the imac G5 at 2.0 Ghz since it is dual. Apple has a history of disieving its customers to get them confused and off the trail and then surprise them when they introduce it. I think at the paris event we will also see new keyboards and mouse.
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