There is no possible way in all hell that a 1.7 Ghz Celeron with a GeForce2 MX400 could get 2.5x the FPS in Quake 3 than a 800 Mhz G4 with a Geforce 4 MX440. (Plus, who's going to play Q3 at 640x480 on these machines?)
<hr></blockquote>
The reason for using 640x480 is that it limits the influence of the video card, thus only testing the CPU.
Quake is very CPU bound but that is another matter.
[quote]1. There is no possible way in all hell that a 1.7 Ghz Celeron with a GeForce2 MX400 could get 2.5x the FPS in Quake 3 than a 800 Mhz G4 with a Geforce 4 MX440. (Plus, who's going to play Q3 at 640x480 on these machines?)<hr></blockquote>
Can we smell vertical sync not being on? Remember that an LCD can be comfortable to use at 40 to 60Hz and they don't mention whether Vsync is on or not in their testing methodology...
Although Q3 really likes memory bandwidth (a major P4/C4 advantage) a GeForce 2 MX would limit it severely. Anyone with an iMac wish to rerun this test?
We all knew Macs are gonna be slower, no shit. But tell them to turn it on, and configure a network or burn a CD or make a movie...then we will see how speedy it is. You can drop a Corvette engine into a Nova but its not going to get the ladies. Talk to me about style and utility, not speed.
<strong>We all knew Macs are gonna be slower, no shit. But tell them to turn it on, and configure a network or burn a CD or make a movie...then we will see how speedy it is. You can drop a Corvette engine into a Nova but its not going to get the ladies. Talk to me about style and utility, not speed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's what it's really about. The Mac user generally has a more keen sense of Aesthestics. No one asks BMW or Mercedes to come out with some cheap auto which will only serve to destroy the reputation they worked hard to build.
When Apple cloned I saw the most pititful case design ever. I'm very afraid of another stint with clones. Macs are eye catching...functional and show that extra thought has been put into them. PC's are square boxy common denominator utilitarian devices. I gotta laugh when I see the fanatics cutting holes in their cases and adding neon just to jazz up what is basically a boring case.
Let's not get into the software either. I want to slap the next fool talking about 1000's of software titles. The PC has so many bomb(not in the good sense) apps...buggy...crappy UI that it's no sense in counting them as a viable product IMO. PC's just disrupt my Feng Shui Man..there's just something wrong about them.
Gary McWilliams with the WSJ had a pretty good analysis of the Gateway strategy. Unfortunately I can't find it on-line. Some interesting points:
Brad Shaw VP of Gateway marketing said that they chose to use the iMac comparsion in order to communicate to PC users what the Profile is, i.e. capitalize on Apple's marketing of AIO machines.
"Apple has a larger share of voice. That's something we can draft on."
John Lister CEO of Lister Butler Consulting feels that the adds are a ploy to "..impress people that (Gateway's) reputation should be up there with Apple...taking their brand building a step forward."
Basically, it seems that Gateway wants the consumer to associate the Profile with the quality and appeal of the iMac and then hope to get sales based upon price.
Sounds risky, particularly if Apple fights back. There is a history of lawsuits in the computer industry based on unfair comparison ads, which is why they are so rare today. Also if Apple upgrades the iMac and/or provides it own perfomance/price tests, Gateway's head-to head camparsion suddenly turns into advertising for Apple.
I happened to be in a store next to a Gateway Store, so I decided to stop in and take a look at the Profile 4.
Trust me, Apple doesn't have anything to worry about at least with this, it is the biggest piece of sh#@t I've seen.
It looks and feels like a piece of crap, and it can't hold a candle to the iMac's look, feel or elegance.
I think Gateway is doing Apple a favor by comparing the Profile4 in their ads, it can only help sell the iMac when people see the difference in person.
Remember the Gateway customer who made national news when, after terrible service and being unable to get his Gateway to work, smashed it with a sledge hammer in front of a Gateway store? It made the news because the store had him arrested. Now, wouldn't he be great in a Switch ad? <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Oh wait, Apple's to stupid to actually make a good ad. Dumb company, brilliant products. Funny commercials are the only commercials people remember, usually.
[quote] ...people don't like AIO computers. <hr></blockquote>
Ummmmmmmmmm, I like my iBook. Lots of people here love their PowerBooks. The old Compact Macs sold well. So have iMacs. They saved Apple, for crying out loud! You speak for yourself, but don't grasp the general feeling of the public, I think. College kids, offices, the average adult that fears computers (cables, complexity, etc. are allayed by the iMac's attractiveness)... Need I go on? Remember, laptops are All In One.
Actually I don't think that people like AIO computers. We like laptops because they're portable.
I think a lot of iMac sales come because people just can't afford Powermacs. If Apple had affordable towers they'd cut down on iMac sales at least by half. I've seen gumdrop iMacs in service for professional graphic design. There are a lot of iMac buyers out there that would rather have a tower but just can't afford it. The common refrain about affordable towers is that they'd eat powermac sales. Yes they'd eat a few, but they'd eat even more iMac sales and, when you think about it, that's a great thing. Entering e/iMac prices, a tower sans expensive display, would have a much bigger profit margin than any of Apple's AIO's, more than enough to offset a few lost PM sales.
While the iMac is great for some, it's existence has more to do with Steve's dogged pursuit of jis own personal computing ideal and the harsh realities of Mac hardware pricing. Given the option, a great many (probably a majority) of iMac owners would rather have a similarly priced tower.
The problem with AIO's is that there advantages are rapidly minimized. Besides the G4, display, and superdrive, an iMac offers little real advantage over an iBook. It's got more storage and it's faster, but the iBook goes anywhere and at least justifies it's lack of expandability through it's portable nature. Towards the end of the gumdrop's life, there was absolutely no reason to choose one over an iBook. Now it offers some features over the portables, so if you need/want to burn DVD's or need a big-screen then you get the iMac. Fine, one travels and the other doesn't, but don't tell me that people who need a desktop anyway wouldn't rather get a nice expandable box for their money.
The lack of cheap BOXES!!! is the single greatest impediment to increased mac sales. Frankly, it's baffling why they don't have one. We know the profit margins would be greater than on any of their AIO's and we know that people PREFER that form of desktop.
They now have DP powermacs, they could easily slot SP towers into the eMac to iMac price range 999-1499 (excluding superdrive models) and keep AIO's for the computing simpletons (the grandma, grandpa, "What's a mouse?" set). I guarantee you that cheap towers would outsell all Apple AIO's, even without the display that would be included for the same money in the AIO option.
I bet you Apple is selling a LOT of DP867's right now to people who were considering superdrive iMac 15 or 17's. Why. At the same price point people would rather have more speed and expansion than more features but a sealed slower machine.
anyone who says these ads are beneficial to Apple has a problem. They criticially point out every major concern PC users have about buying a mac and make them seem true. That they are slower and more expensive and don't run as much software but look good. That's the exact opposite of what Apple has been trying to do with the Switc ads and I have a feeling a lot more people will be influenced by these TV commercials than switch ads in newsweek and bus stops
I have also been into the local Gateway store to see the new Profile. Keep in mind that I am a current pc user when i say this: It is a POS! However, they did have a 700x that I hadn't noticed before. For the same price of an 17" iMac, it comes with an 18" digital LCD, 2.53ghz cpu, 512mb RDRAM. My wife used it and loved the monitor and speed. How am i supposed to convince her to switch now?? We don't have an Apple store here!!
<strong>anyone who says these ads are beneficial to Apple has a problem. They criticially point out every major concern PC users have about buying a mac and make them seem true. That they are slower and more expensive and don't run as much software but look good. That's the exact opposite of what Apple has been trying to do with the Switc ads and I have a feeling a lot more people will be influenced by these TV commercials than switch ads in newsweek and bus stops</strong><hr></blockquote>
TV ads don't usually work that way. In almost every TV ad, the product that tries to undercut another doesn't specifically reference others by name. They don't even display the logo of the other brand or anything...just a generic item. When you compare Lysol to PineSol, you get a generic yellow looking bottle with no label on it as the 'competitor.'
I haven't seen the Gateway commercial yet, but I can say with confidence that any extra time the iMac gets on TV is good. It's the repitition of seeing the iMac(or any other product) on the the TV. That's the whole deal with putting Macs on TV shows. For one, it's cheaper than commercial space. Second, it gets to be on TV for a long, long time.
By virtually targetting the Profile 4 at the iMac, Gateway might win over a few fence sitters who aren't ready to switch, but they aren't targetting their biggest threat, the rest of the Windows/x86 industry. It's not the Mac platform that is killing Gateway, it's Dell and HP.
<strong>I have also been into the local Gateway store to see the new Profile. Keep in mind that I am a current pc user when i say this: It is a POS! However, they did have a 700x that I hadn't noticed before. For the same price of an 17" iMac, it comes with an 18" digital LCD, 2.53ghz cpu, 512mb RDRAM. My wife used it and loved the monitor and speed. How am i supposed to convince her to switch now?? We don't have an Apple store here!!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's like I said in my previous post, CHEAP BOXES!!! People don't inherently like AIO computers. A large percentage of iMac users make do with iMacs because macs in general are to expensive and there aren't really other options (in that price range) if you want a mac. But the PC (including Gateway) has no such restrictions. The Gateway ad is great because it rides on the iMac's visibility while pointing out all the flaws. When people then check gateways store they'll find that the gateway towers are an even better deal. Some might buy profiles, but even more will buy towers. It takes the inner spec hunter's anxiety in every consumer and amplifies with apparently better pricing.
Having it's most serious failings publicly demonstrated will not be good for Apple, consumers don't need further assurance that macs are too slow, too expensive, and too 'different'. There's just enough truth in each of those thoughts (and especially in the first two) to do serious damage to Apple's evangelical 'switch' message.
I've seen the ad several times now, and I think it is going to hurt Apple's chance to grow it's market share.
Unfortunately, for most things, it is true that the Profile XL is much faster then the iMac, so Apple can't really respond to the ad at all. While it probably wont cause any Mac users to switch, the commercials will keep some PC and first time users away from the Mac.
Apple really should put the fastest bus and G4 they can in the iMac -- It looks like that the PC side is going to give them some tough competition.
Just saw the commercial. It's ugly. Oh, so is the Profile. IMO Apple doesn't have to worry. About Gateway that is. Though it certainly couldn't hurt to up iMac performance and/or lower price.
Is it me or did the iMac just look better. Forget whatever the dumb narrator is saying, no one listens anyway. The iMac just looks better. Apple needs to advertise MacOS X specifically though! And the iMac needs a faster bus/DDR-RAM and 1 Ghz G4 (for the megahurtz weenies.)
Comments
agent302.
There is no possible way in all hell that a 1.7 Ghz Celeron with a GeForce2 MX400 could get 2.5x the FPS in Quake 3 than a 800 Mhz G4 with a Geforce 4 MX440. (Plus, who's going to play Q3 at 640x480 on these machines?)
<hr></blockquote>
The reason for using 640x480 is that it limits the influence of the video card, thus only testing the CPU.
Quake is very CPU bound but that is another matter.
Can we smell vertical sync not being on? Remember that an LCD can be comfortable to use at 40 to 60Hz and they don't mention whether Vsync is on or not in their testing methodology...
Although Q3 really likes memory bandwidth (a major P4/C4 advantage) a GeForce 2 MX would limit it severely. Anyone with an iMac wish to rerun this test?
<strong>We all knew Macs are gonna be slower, no shit. But tell them to turn it on, and configure a network or burn a CD or make a movie...then we will see how speedy it is. You can drop a Corvette engine into a Nova but its not going to get the ladies. Talk to me about style and utility, not speed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's what it's really about. The Mac user generally has a more keen sense of Aesthestics. No one asks BMW or Mercedes to come out with some cheap auto which will only serve to destroy the reputation they worked hard to build.
When Apple cloned I saw the most pititful case design ever. I'm very afraid of another stint with clones. Macs are eye catching...functional and show that extra thought has been put into them. PC's are square boxy common denominator utilitarian devices. I gotta laugh when I see the fanatics cutting holes in their cases and adding neon just to jazz up what is basically a boring case.
Let's not get into the software either. I want to slap the next fool talking about 1000's of software titles. The PC has so many bomb(not in the good sense) apps...buggy...crappy UI that it's no sense in counting them as a viable product IMO. PC's just disrupt my Feng Shui Man..there's just something wrong about them.
Brad Shaw VP of Gateway marketing said that they chose to use the iMac comparsion in order to communicate to PC users what the Profile is, i.e. capitalize on Apple's marketing of AIO machines.
"Apple has a larger share of voice. That's something we can draft on."
John Lister CEO of Lister Butler Consulting feels that the adds are a ploy to "..impress people that (Gateway's) reputation should be up there with Apple...taking their brand building a step forward."
Basically, it seems that Gateway wants the consumer to associate the Profile with the quality and appeal of the iMac and then hope to get sales based upon price.
Sounds risky, particularly if Apple fights back. There is a history of lawsuits in the computer industry based on unfair comparison ads, which is why they are so rare today. Also if Apple upgrades the iMac and/or provides it own perfomance/price tests, Gateway's head-to head camparsion suddenly turns into advertising for Apple.
No kidding. Using them is like writing with the wrong hand, drinking skunky beer, or listening to Michael Bolton cover Otis.
The Gateway Profile's will not sell. Targeting the iMac is folly.
Trust me, Apple doesn't have anything to worry about at least with this, it is the biggest piece of sh#@t I've seen.
It looks and feels like a piece of crap, and it can't hold a candle to the iMac's look, feel or elegance.
I think Gateway is doing Apple a favor by comparing the Profile4 in their ads, it can only help sell the iMac when people see the difference in person.
Oh and don't forget, only the iMac rums OS X
Remember the Gateway customer who made national news when, after terrible service and being unable to get his Gateway to work, smashed it with a sledge hammer in front of a Gateway store? It made the news because the store had him arrested. Now, wouldn't he be great in a Switch ad? <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Oh wait, Apple's to stupid to actually make a good ad. Dumb company, brilliant products. Funny commercials are the only commercials people remember, usually.
[quote] ...people don't like AIO computers. <hr></blockquote>
Ummmmmmmmmm, I like my iBook. Lots of people here love their PowerBooks. The old Compact Macs sold well. So have iMacs. They saved Apple, for crying out loud! You speak for yourself, but don't grasp the general feeling of the public, I think. College kids, offices, the average adult that fears computers (cables, complexity, etc. are allayed by the iMac's attractiveness)... Need I go on? Remember, laptops are All In One.
I think a lot of iMac sales come because people just can't afford Powermacs. If Apple had affordable towers they'd cut down on iMac sales at least by half. I've seen gumdrop iMacs in service for professional graphic design. There are a lot of iMac buyers out there that would rather have a tower but just can't afford it. The common refrain about affordable towers is that they'd eat powermac sales. Yes they'd eat a few, but they'd eat even more iMac sales and, when you think about it, that's a great thing. Entering e/iMac prices, a tower sans expensive display, would have a much bigger profit margin than any of Apple's AIO's, more than enough to offset a few lost PM sales.
While the iMac is great for some, it's existence has more to do with Steve's dogged pursuit of jis own personal computing ideal and the harsh realities of Mac hardware pricing. Given the option, a great many (probably a majority) of iMac owners would rather have a similarly priced tower.
The problem with AIO's is that there advantages are rapidly minimized. Besides the G4, display, and superdrive, an iMac offers little real advantage over an iBook. It's got more storage and it's faster, but the iBook goes anywhere and at least justifies it's lack of expandability through it's portable nature. Towards the end of the gumdrop's life, there was absolutely no reason to choose one over an iBook. Now it offers some features over the portables, so if you need/want to burn DVD's or need a big-screen then you get the iMac. Fine, one travels and the other doesn't, but don't tell me that people who need a desktop anyway wouldn't rather get a nice expandable box for their money.
The lack of cheap BOXES!!! is the single greatest impediment to increased mac sales. Frankly, it's baffling why they don't have one. We know the profit margins would be greater than on any of their AIO's and we know that people PREFER that form of desktop.
They now have DP powermacs, they could easily slot SP towers into the eMac to iMac price range 999-1499 (excluding superdrive models) and keep AIO's for the computing simpletons (the grandma, grandpa, "What's a mouse?" set). I guarantee you that cheap towers would outsell all Apple AIO's, even without the display that would be included for the same money in the AIO option.
I bet you Apple is selling a LOT of DP867's right now to people who were considering superdrive iMac 15 or 17's. Why. At the same price point people would rather have more speed and expansion than more features but a sealed slower machine.
<strong>anyone who says these ads are beneficial to Apple has a problem. They criticially point out every major concern PC users have about buying a mac and make them seem true. That they are slower and more expensive and don't run as much software but look good. That's the exact opposite of what Apple has been trying to do with the Switc ads and I have a feeling a lot more people will be influenced by these TV commercials than switch ads in newsweek and bus stops</strong><hr></blockquote>
TV ads don't usually work that way. In almost every TV ad, the product that tries to undercut another doesn't specifically reference others by name. They don't even display the logo of the other brand or anything...just a generic item. When you compare Lysol to PineSol, you get a generic yellow looking bottle with no label on it as the 'competitor.'
I haven't seen the Gateway commercial yet, but I can say with confidence that any extra time the iMac gets on TV is good. It's the repitition of seeing the iMac(or any other product) on the the TV. That's the whole deal with putting Macs on TV shows. For one, it's cheaper than commercial space. Second, it gets to be on TV for a long, long time.
By virtually targetting the Profile 4 at the iMac, Gateway might win over a few fence sitters who aren't ready to switch, but they aren't targetting their biggest threat, the rest of the Windows/x86 industry. It's not the Mac platform that is killing Gateway, it's Dell and HP.
<strong>I have also been into the local Gateway store to see the new Profile. Keep in mind that I am a current pc user when i say this: It is a POS! However, they did have a 700x that I hadn't noticed before. For the same price of an 17" iMac, it comes with an 18" digital LCD, 2.53ghz cpu, 512mb RDRAM. My wife used it and loved the monitor and speed. How am i supposed to convince her to switch now?? We don't have an Apple store here!!
It's like I said in my previous post, CHEAP BOXES!!! People don't inherently like AIO computers. A large percentage of iMac users make do with iMacs because macs in general are to expensive and there aren't really other options (in that price range) if you want a mac. But the PC (including Gateway) has no such restrictions. The Gateway ad is great because it rides on the iMac's visibility while pointing out all the flaws. When people then check gateways store they'll find that the gateway towers are an even better deal. Some might buy profiles, but even more will buy towers. It takes the inner spec hunter's anxiety in every consumer and amplifies with apparently better pricing.
Having it's most serious failings publicly demonstrated will not be good for Apple, consumers don't need further assurance that macs are too slow, too expensive, and too 'different'. There's just enough truth in each of those thoughts (and especially in the first two) to do serious damage to Apple's evangelical 'switch' message.
<strong>When is Gateway going to go out of business?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very soon....
[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Power Apple ]</p>
Unfortunately, for most things, it is true that the Profile XL is much faster then the iMac, so Apple can't really respond to the ad at all. While it probably wont cause any Mac users to switch, the commercials will keep some PC and first time users away from the Mac.
Apple really should put the fastest bus and G4 they can in the iMac -- It looks like that the PC side is going to give them some tough competition.
Is it me or did the iMac just look better. Forget whatever the dumb narrator is saying, no one listens anyway. The iMac just looks better. Apple needs to advertise MacOS X specifically though! And the iMac needs a faster bus/DDR-RAM and 1 Ghz G4 (for the megahurtz weenies.)
<strong>But cows are still dumb and big cats are still cunning, I'd rather be a rare cunning cat than a typical dumb cow.
Yup!
I'd rather be hunted to extinction rather than bred to be eaten or injected with rBGH.