It's surprising that apple presumably does not have a better OGL implemented right now. AFAIK they were the first PC maker to use OGL outside from SGI, they have been developing it for years, the bought Raycer Graphics, and now they getting to integrate Core Image. What's the Fu**ing holdup with them and everything they do?
I'm starting to think their address suits them perfectly. Because they crashed a few years ago, and are not rebooting. THe address should be more like infinite disappointment. Everything (besides the iPod) they have is dying , and outdated before it hits the streets. And it takes a year and a day after the announcement to actually get your hands these products that seemed behind the competition the day they were announced.
Actually Apple was late to the OpenGL party. For years they pushed their own proprietary Quickdraw3D as the Macintosh API for 3D development. Once QD3D went up in smoke Apple new OpenGL was their only hope as they sure weren't going to get MS' DirectX technology.
Apple then licensed the OpenGL libraries from Conix and away they went. Apple has never really had a stellar implementation but that's not a suprise. They've been bustin' their asses over the last 5 years getting OSX up to a usable state. I think we begin to see Apple improve the components of OSX. We've been through this before. Look how long it took us to get Write Combining in AGP. WWDC had plenty of OpenGL sessions. I wouldn't be suprised to see OpenGL performance improve greatly in Tiger and Panther updates. Considering Tiger leans heavily on GLSlang, I expect a very good implementation.
Apple has done wonderful things with Core Audio and I'm very impressed. I think Quicktime and OpenGL are the next technologies to see some nice optimizations and improvements. I think Apple would benefit more or rather "we" would benefit more if Apple aquired some 3D maker. Core Audio has improved because Logic users have been vocal about any shortcomings. If Apple owned a 3D company and shipped an app its users would be vocal about shortcomings as well leading to quicker improvements.
As for Audio. I expect to see Logic 7 announced at AES in Oct. It's looking to be a great update with new Apple Loop support, and new UI and new Beat features ala ProTools Beat Detective. As for interfaces the one I have my eye on is the RME Fireface 800. Gobs of inputs and power, there will likely be some new mLAN interfaces out next Winter NAMM 2005 that should be interesting.
Apple is actually executing quite well. One only needs to look at the Longhorn gutting that is currently going on to realize how difficult OS development is. Tiger needs to ship will all the major feature working..if they are a bit slower that's fine, optimizations can come later but ship it on time.
Your talking the best of all worlds there man I hear you big time. I still love the idea you had about a Core 3D API, and/or SDK.
If Apple, and/or an Apple/Pixar cooperative was to buy (I dream of it) Luxology at a deserving price I have no doubts we would have no worries.
I love the look of Modo, and I have always been impressed with Brad Peebler. ( I bought two of his video tapes, and I don't even use LW)
The Nexus Renderer looks more than incredible -no pixar pun intendedl. I would think that Apple would be in a great position to create an incredible 3D platform with Peebler, and co. on board working in close proximity Apple, and Pixar developers.
I read @CGTalk that Pixar had used Lightwave modeler in the past for projects at times. I also think Pixar is probably using Luxology in some form, or another now.
I think it would be a great benefit to all 3 companies if something like this would happen.
ProMac G5 Dual (Dual Core) 3.4Ghz G5 New ProMac G5 enclosure IBM/Nvidia/Apple/Nforce3 spec motherboard. (IBM is manufacturing Nvidia processors so why not?) 1.6Ghz FSB per processor 1MB L2 Cache per processor 1GB Dual Channel 667Mhz DDR2 Ram (?)(BTO) Expandable to 8GB (16 GB) (Same as now) 250GB SATA HD (BTO*) Option for SCSI or ATA RAID PCI-X card (BTO*) <-- This wont ever happen from Apple store. but I left it 8x Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive (configurable BTO*) 2x PCIe One filled (ATI X800) (added - configurable Nvidia, QuadroFX 4400 Pro Cards BTO*) 2X PCI-X 64bit/133Mhz 1x PCI Slot (?) (same as BOXX, and Alienware) 2x FireWire 800 2x FW 400 3x USB 2.0 3x USB $4299 - $5299 (without BTO'ops) (Base Range is hard to equate -adjusted)
EDU $4xxx/. (adjusted)
-------------------------------------- Dual (Dual Core) 3GHz G5 New ProMac G5 enclosure IBM/Nvidia/Apple/Nforce3 spec motherboard 1.5Ghz FSB per processor 1MB L2 Cache per processor 512MB Dual Channel 667Mhz DDR2 Ram (BTO*) Expandable to 8GB (16GB) (Same as now) 250GB SATA HD (BTO*) Option for SCSI PCI-X card w/HD's 8x Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive (BTO*) 2x PCIe One filled (ATI X600) (BTO Configurable*) 1x PCI-X 64Bit/133Mhz 1x PCI-X 64Bit/100Mhz 2x FireWire 800 2x FW 400 2x USB 2.0 2x USB $3699 (Base Range is hard to equate - but not adjusted) EDU $3499
* (BTO) just means is, or was adjusted in BTO options pulldown nothing more
AFAIK PC versions of Nvidia's Pro 3D cards could be as easy to install on a Macintosh as they are on a PC if they came w/o the full firmware, and drivers installed.
I think from what I have read they could come with a cross driver setup, and a Mac, and PC CD to configure them accordingly upon installation. This alone would make Apple a much more attractive platform for many of their current, and would be customers.
You guys are killing me with those prices. I bought my B&W G3/350 for $1500. That was a middle of the pack PowerMac at the time. Are processors, etc. that much more expensive these days to justify $3000+ for the CPU? And it's way too many models. One of Steve's big pushes when he came back was to SIMPLIFY the line. Remember that product square thingy he shows off at MacWorlds?
Pro Desktop = PowerMac
Pro Laptop = PowerBook
Consumer Desktop = iMac
Consumer Laptop = iBook
Low, Middle, and High end for each. (PowerBook line currently has 5 models because of SuperDrive option - Don't know why that's not just a BTO line item.)
The eMac is the anomaly. But it started as a special edu only product.
If Apple goes with the pricing you suggest, they just drive a bigger and bigger gap between the iMac and PowerMac product lines.
Maybe I just fall in a demographic Apple's not interested in selling to. I want more power and flexibilty than the iMac offers, but I'm not a pro user so I can't justify/write off the expense of a full-blown workstation class machine that the PowerMac has become (and you are suggesting it go further down that path).
Apple should do with the Pro line what they've done with the Consumer line. Have a high (iMac) and low (eMac) form factor PowerMac. Call the new PowerMac a Home Office or Small Business machine.
Uber-workstation class machines are great for the movie studio, scientific engineering, and product design crowd. But it leaves the enthusiast, gamer, home movie editor, local newsletter publisher with no good options.
I agree there needs to be a nice computer with expandability for $2000 including Monitor and a memory upgrade. I'd envision something like this next March/April
Powermac G5 2.2Ghz 970MP
1Ghz FSB
512MB of RAM(8GB Max)
4 PCI Express Slots
Nvidia 5700FX Ultra or ATI X300
120GB HD 8X Superdrive
10/100/1000
$1499
Powermac G5 2.5Ghz 970MP
1Ghz FSB
1024MB of RAM (16GB Max)
4 PCI Express Slots
Nvidia 6600 GT or ATI X600
160GB HD 16x DL Superdrive
10/100/1000
$2299
Powermac G5 2.8Ghz 970MP Dual Socket
1Ghz FSB
2048MB of RAM
6 PCI Express Slots
Nvidia 6800 Ultra or ATI X800 Premium
400GB HD 16x DL Superdrive
10/100/1000 x2 Dual ports
$3499
Ah there. Enough differentiation and some room between the lines. Cheap on the low end but expandable and expensive on the high end for those that need max expandability.
You guys are killing me with those prices. I bought my B&W G3/350 for $1500. That was a middle of the pack PowerMac at the time. Are processors, etc. that much more expensive these days to justify $3000+ for the CPU? And it's way too many models. One of Steve's big pushes when he came back was to SIMPLIFY the line. Remember that product square thingy he shows off at MacWorlds?
Pro Desktop = PowerMac
Pro Laptop = PowerBook
Consumer Desktop = iMac
Consumer Laptop = iBook
Low, Middle, and High end for each. (PowerBook line currently has 5 models because of SuperDrive option - Don't know why that's not just a BTO line item.)
The eMac is the anomaly. But it started as a special edu only product.
If Apple goes with the pricing you suggest, they just drive a bigger and bigger gap between the iMac and PowerMac product lines.
Maybe I just fall in a demographic Apple's not interested in selling to. I want more power and flexibilty than the iMac offers, but I'm not a pro user so I can't justify/write off the expense of a full-blown workstation class machine that the PowerMac has become (and you are suggesting it go further down that path).
Apple should do with the Pro line what they've done with the Consumer line. Have a high (iMac) and low (eMac) form factor PowerMac. Call the new PowerMac a Home Office or Small Business machine.
Uber-workstation class machines are great for the movie studio, scientific engineering, and product design crowd. But it leaves the enthusiast, gamer, home movie editor, local newsletter publisher with no good options.
- Jasen.
As you mentioned.
Pro Desktop = PowerMac <--Bingo!
Pro Laptop = PowerBook
Consumer Desktop = iMac
Consumer Laptop = iBook
That is no Pro Desktop. It has not been in a while.
What I was emphasizing is that there needs to be a Macintosh Pro desktop for their pro applications used by Pro's. If you look again we called it the ProMac, not the PowerMac.
We pretty much left the PowerMac alone. But, the PowerMac should still be able to run the Pro apps if a consumer wants to upgrade to a more "Power" full version Mac above the consumer line (iMac). The current PowerMac line is sh*t for those in need of a Professional workstation. It has been for a long time.
The regular PowerMac pricing scheme should remain, but I was emphasizing that there is better products out there, and some people are willing to pay the price for configuring in such additional options as a Pro 3D graphics card.
My figures on the ProMac were a bit high without the Nvidia Quadro FX 4400 configured as the option, but I didn't want anyone to get the impression that such a machine wouldn't come at a higher price range than what they are used to seeing. So I inflated it a bit for shock value. If you want an approximation on what such a Machine should cost go to the Alienware site, and configure a Dual AMD Opteron 2.4GHz MJ-12 DCC workstation with an Nvidia Quadro FX 4000. Then figure out what else is important to you and it adds up quickly.
BOXX has a similar pricing scheme, but they don't have the FX 4000 they do have an FX 3000, but in the end theirs is far more expensive for a lesser machine.
I appreciate your comments about Apple offering something more in Pro
Audio, but a digital sequencing application such as Logic,
does not offer much help to musicians or songwriters wishing to make high quality multi-track recordings of voice, acoustic instruments and other miked or line-in analog sounds.
The pre-recorded band in a box idea might be fun for the novice musician, but digital recording and post production of analog sound requires a multi-channel analog to digital interface.
At the time being, Protools still seems to corner the market on the best (though damn pricey) outboard gear needed to get this done in any professional manner. At the very minimum, you need at least 8-16 I/O's
What I was hoping for was a truly professional AUDIO workstation
rather than a 3D rendering workstation.
In either case the (dual) dual core G5 setups mentioned above as
the Apple Pro Series should allow BTO configurations to suite
the needs of any serious professional in either media,
including a G5 compatible, high end sound card. specifically geared for multi-track audio recording.
As far as software, I'm fairly sure that Final Cut Pro HD could be tweaked
a bit more to compete with anything that Protools offers.
But ProTools is an audio app. Final Cut Pro HD is a video app. What is the correlation you are trying to make in your statement? I have no idea what it is you are getting at.
Quote:
As far as software, I'm fairly sure that Final Cut Pro HD could be tweaked
a bit more to compete with anything that Protools offers.
I suppose I was hoping that Final Cut could be improved in Sound Studio and Compressor to include the best features of Protools TDM software and thus enable musicians to not only record their music from scratch, but then also enable them to create a matching DVD.
The current cost of Protools gear and plug ins, is still way beyond the financial means of most "starving artists " who simply want to make highest possible quality recordings of their compositions without
taking out a second mortgage.
Until these cost come down, many musicians like me will simply go back to using their good old noisy tape gear and then use their Mac
for burning the final mix off their Macke console..
"My opinion is that OS X should be the unquestioned premiere platform for everything OpenGL. But it is just not."
OS X is the worst platform for OpenGL development, by far. MS and Linux are both about on equal footing.
It is extremely depressing to have a three thousand dollar machine with a top of the line video card and shoddy GL support. I've seen many other developers wondering out loud why they should even be bothering with OS X versions of their apps with the drivers being so buggy and out of date in comparison to the other two platforms.
The next line of PowerMacs should continue to get upgrades in processors speed, drive size, and get PCIe slots. It's alright for them to stay really high in price, because people that buy them generally have a high budget to cover it.
I just really, really wish Apple would release a single model of a slimmed down PowerMac.
Just imagine a single processor G5 in a minitower that's not so small that it skyrockets costs, like the Cube did. This thing would be marketed as "The Mac the way you want it." It would be geared towards the budget-conscious who don't want to be constrained to the limiting iMac or eMac designs, and can't afford the high price of a Dual PM G5. I truly believe there is a market for this... particularly switchers who weren't happy with Apple's hardware and Mac users that just want a cheap, fast, flexible computer to run OS X on.
This thing should be all about keeping costs down and flexibility open. Easy-access internals should be a given. Only release 1 model to keep price down and to not overlap with existing products. Here's how I see it:
1.8GHz G5
900MHz FSB
512MB L2 cache
256MB RAM
Combo Drive
80GB Serial ATA HD
One PCI slot & one 3.5" drive bay
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
8x AGP
56K internal modem
$999
This is of course after the PM line all gets bumped and starts at 2GHz. eMac line should drop to $599-$799. The PowerMac G5 Express is the perfect computer for those who want a computer and not an internet appliance. $2000 for that is just too much.
Currently there is no room for a both a PM and ProPM line, short of going quattro on the Pro models.
If the PM line has gone across the 3GHz line within the next 6-8 months and there are dual cores aviable in good numbers, then might be the time to split the PM to PM and pPM.
Anyone else that get the feeling that SATA is killing FW?
My point is that many internal hardisks are SATA so hence the motherboard or a card has to support SATA. This opens up the field for external SATA cases (http://www.xpcgear.com/sataenclosure.html) and I assume that DVD burners etc also will come. With such SATA already in place due to the HD the use for FW and USB 2 is relegated to non ATA devices like scanners and video cameras
I really liked the idea of a compact trimmed down cheap G5.
Had there been signs of IBM actually getting their act together, I'd be optimistic. But so far, all signs point at the opposite. No act gotten together yet.
I maintain my position that 2.8 GHz will be the fastest next time they bump the powermacs.
Comments
for multitrack recording.
Currently Digidesign seems to be the only one's matching up mid level and pro hardware to the G5 lineup.
There are several other affordable outboard interfaces available,
but nothing from what I've seen in an integrated 8 I/O Pro sound card.
Rumors of ProBand make me wonder what may be available from Apple
for analog and digital multichannel I/O's in the future.
I'm starting to think their address suits them perfectly. Because they crashed a few years ago, and are not rebooting. THe address should be more like infinite disappointment. Everything (besides the iPod) they have is dying , and outdated before it hits the streets. And it takes a year and a day after the announcement to actually get your hands these products that seemed behind the competition the day they were announced.
Apple then licensed the OpenGL libraries from Conix and away they went. Apple has never really had a stellar implementation but that's not a suprise. They've been bustin' their asses over the last 5 years getting OSX up to a usable state. I think we begin to see Apple improve the components of OSX. We've been through this before. Look how long it took us to get Write Combining in AGP. WWDC had plenty of OpenGL sessions. I wouldn't be suprised to see OpenGL performance improve greatly in Tiger and Panther updates. Considering Tiger leans heavily on GLSlang, I expect a very good implementation.
Apple has done wonderful things with Core Audio and I'm very impressed. I think Quicktime and OpenGL are the next technologies to see some nice optimizations and improvements. I think Apple would benefit more or rather "we" would benefit more if Apple aquired some 3D maker. Core Audio has improved because Logic users have been vocal about any shortcomings. If Apple owned a 3D company and shipped an app its users would be vocal about shortcomings as well leading to quicker improvements.
As for Audio. I expect to see Logic 7 announced at AES in Oct. It's looking to be a great update with new Apple Loop support, and new UI and new Beat features ala ProTools Beat Detective. As for interfaces the one I have my eye on is the RME Fireface 800. Gobs of inputs and power, there will likely be some new mLAN interfaces out next Winter NAMM 2005 that should be interesting.
Apple is actually executing quite well. One only needs to look at the Longhorn gutting that is currently going on to realize how difficult OS development is. Tiger needs to ship will all the major feature working..if they are a bit slower that's fine, optimizations can come later but ship it on time.
If Apple, and/or an Apple/Pixar cooperative was to buy (I dream of it) Luxology at a deserving price I have no doubts we would have no worries.
I love the look of Modo, and I have always been impressed with Brad Peebler. ( I bought two of his video tapes, and I don't even use LW)
The Nexus Renderer looks more than incredible -no pixar pun intendedl. I would think that Apple would be in a great position to create an incredible 3D platform with Peebler, and co. on board working in close proximity Apple, and Pixar developers.
I read @CGTalk that Pixar had used Lightwave modeler in the past for projects at times. I also think Pixar is probably using Luxology in some form, or another now.
I think it would be a great benefit to all 3 companies if something like this would happen.
Think of it. If it's good enough for Pixar...
Nexus/RenderMan <--Ouch!
ProMac G5
Dual (Dual Core) 3.4Ghz G5
1.6Ghz FSB per processor
1MB L2 Cache per processor
1GB Dual Channel 667Mhz DDR2 Ram
Expandable to 8GB
250GB SATA HD
Option for SCSI PCI-X card w/HD's
8x Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive
2x PCIe One filled (ATI X800)
2X PCI-X 64bit/133Mhz
$3999
EDU $3799
--------------------------------------
Dual (Dual Core) 3GHz G5
1.5Ghz FSB per processor
1MB L2 Cache per processor
512MB Dual Channel 667Mhz DDR2 Ram
Expandable to 8GB
250GB SATA HD
Option for SCSI PCI-X card w/HD's
8x Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive
2x PCIe One filled (ATI X600)
1x PCI-X 64Bit/133Mhz
1x PCI-X 64Bit/100Mhz
$3699
EDU $3499
--------------------------------------
PowerMac G5
Dual 3.5Ghz G5
1.6Ghz FSB per processor
512K L2 Cache per processor
1GB Dual Channel 533Mhz DDR2 ram
Expandable to 8GB
160GB SATA HD
8X Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive
2X PCIe One Filled (X600)
2X PCI-X 64Bit/133Mhz
$2999
EDU 2799
Dual 3Ghz G5
1.5Ghz FSB Per Processor
512K L2 Cache per processor
512MB Dual Channel 533Mhz DDR2 ram
Expandable to 8GB
160GB SATA HD
8X DVD-R/RW Drive
1X PCIe (X600)
2X PCI-X 64bit/100Mhz
1X PCI-X 64Bit/133Mhz
$2499
EDU $2299
1.25GHz FSB per processor
512K L2 Cache per processor
256MB Dual Channel 533Mhz DDR ram
Expandable to 4GB
80GB SATA HD
8X DVD-R/RW Drive
1X 8x AGP Pro graphics (9800XT)
3X PCI-X 64bit/100Mhz
$1999
EDU $1899
Dual 1.8Ghz G5
900Mhz FSB Per processor
512 L2 Cache per processor
256MB 533Mhz DDR ram
Expandable to 4GB
80GB SATA HD
8X DVD-R/RW drive
1X 8X AGP pro graphics (9600XT)
3X PCI-X 64bit/100Mhz
$1499
EDU $1399
Originally posted by Altivec_2.0
Here's what Apple should do IMO
ProMac G5
Dual (Dual Core) 3.4Ghz G5
1.6Ghz FSB per processor
1MB L2 Cache per processor
1GB Dual Channel 667Mhz DDR2 Ram
Expandable to 8GB
250GB SATA HD
Option for SCSI PCI-X card w/HD's
8x Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive
2x PCIe One filled (ATI X800)
2X PCI-X 64bit/133Mhz
$3999
EDU $3799
--------------------------------------
Dual (Dual Core) 3GHz G5
1.5Ghz FSB per processor
1MB L2 Cache per processor
512MB Dual Channel 667Mhz DDR2 Ram
Expandable to 8GB
250GB SATA HD
Option for SCSI PCI-X card w/HD's
8x Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive
2x PCIe One filled (ATI X600)
1x PCI-X 64Bit/133Mhz
1x PCI-X 64Bit/100Mhz
$3699
EDU $3499
--------------------------------------
PowerMac G5
Dual 3.5Ghz G5
1.6Ghz FSB per processor
512K L2 Cache per processor
1GB Dual Channel 533Mhz DDR2 ram
Expandable to 8GB
160GB SATA HD
8X Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive
2X PCIe One Filled (X600)
2X PCI-X 64Bit/133Mhz
$2999
EDU 2799
Dual 3Ghz G5
1.5Ghz FSB Per Processor
512K L2 Cache per processor
512MB Dual Channel 533Mhz DDR2 ram
Expandable to 8GB
160GB SATA HD
8X DVD-R/RW Drive
1X PCIe (X600)
2X PCI-X 64bit/100Mhz
1X PCI-X 64Bit/133Mhz
$2499
EDU $2299
adjusted via -onlooker
ProMac G5 Dual (Dual Core) 3.4Ghz G5
New ProMac G5 enclosure
IBM/Nvidia/Apple/Nforce3 spec motherboard. (IBM is manufacturing Nvidia processors so why not?)
1.6Ghz FSB per processor
1MB L2 Cache per processor
1GB Dual Channel 667Mhz DDR2 Ram (?)(BTO)
Expandable to 8GB (16 GB) (Same as now)
250GB SATA HD (BTO*)
Option for SCSI or ATA RAID PCI-X card (BTO*) <-- This wont ever happen from Apple store. but I left it
8x Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive (configurable BTO*)
2x PCIe One filled (ATI X800) (added - configurable Nvidia, QuadroFX 4400 Pro Cards BTO*)
2X PCI-X 64bit/133Mhz
1x PCI Slot (?) (same as BOXX, and Alienware)
2x FireWire 800 2x FW 400
3x USB 2.0 3x USB
$4299 - $5299 (without BTO'ops) (Base Range is hard to equate -adjusted)
EDU $4xxx/. (adjusted)
--------------------------------------
Dual (Dual Core) 3GHz G5
New ProMac G5 enclosure
IBM/Nvidia/Apple/Nforce3 spec motherboard
1.5Ghz FSB per processor
1MB L2 Cache per processor
512MB Dual Channel 667Mhz DDR2 Ram (BTO*)
Expandable to 8GB (16GB) (Same as now)
250GB SATA HD (BTO*)
Option for SCSI PCI-X card w/HD's
8x Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive (BTO*)
2x PCIe One filled (ATI X600) (BTO Configurable*)
1x PCI-X 64Bit/133Mhz
1x PCI-X 64Bit/100Mhz
2x FireWire 800 2x FW 400
2x USB 2.0 2x USB
$3699 (Base Range is hard to equate - but not adjusted)
EDU $3499
--------------------------------------
PowerMac G5
Dual 3.2Ghz G5 (adjusted)
1.6Ghz FSB per processor
512K L2 Cache per processor
1GB Dual Channel 533Mhz DDR2 ram
Expandable to 8GB (16GB)
160GB SATA HD (BTO*)
8X Dual Layer DVD-R/RW Drive (BTO*)
2X PCIe One Filled (X600) (BTO*)
2X PCI-X 64Bit/133Mhz
$2999
EDU 2799
Dual 3Ghz G5
1.5Ghz FSB Per Processor
512K L2 Cache per processor
512MB Dual Channel 533Mhz DDR2 ram
Expandable to 8GB (16GB)
160GB SATA HD (BTO*)
8X DVD-R/RW Drive
1X PCIe (X600) (BTO*)
2X PCI-X 64bit/100Mhz
1X PCI-X 64Bit/133Mhz
$2699 (adjusted)
* (BTO) just means is, or was adjusted in BTO options pulldown nothing more
AFAIK PC versions of Nvidia's Pro 3D cards could be as easy to install on a Macintosh as they are on a PC if they came w/o the full firmware, and drivers installed.
I think from what I have read they could come with a cross driver setup, and a Mac, and PC CD to configure them accordingly upon installation. This alone would make Apple a much more attractive platform for many of their current, and would be customers.
Pro Desktop = PowerMac
Pro Laptop = PowerBook
Consumer Desktop = iMac
Consumer Laptop = iBook
Low, Middle, and High end for each. (PowerBook line currently has 5 models because of SuperDrive option - Don't know why that's not just a BTO line item.)
The eMac is the anomaly. But it started as a special edu only product.
If Apple goes with the pricing you suggest, they just drive a bigger and bigger gap between the iMac and PowerMac product lines.
Maybe I just fall in a demographic Apple's not interested in selling to. I want more power and flexibilty than the iMac offers, but I'm not a pro user so I can't justify/write off the expense of a full-blown workstation class machine that the PowerMac has become (and you are suggesting it go further down that path).
Apple should do with the Pro line what they've done with the Consumer line. Have a high (iMac) and low (eMac) form factor PowerMac. Call the new PowerMac a Home Office or Small Business machine.
Uber-workstation class machines are great for the movie studio, scientific engineering, and product design crowd. But it leaves the enthusiast, gamer, home movie editor, local newsletter publisher with no good options.
- Jasen.
I agree there needs to be a nice computer with expandability for $2000 including Monitor and a memory upgrade. I'd envision something like this next March/April
Powermac G5 2.2Ghz 970MP
1Ghz FSB
512MB of RAM(8GB Max)
4 PCI Express Slots
Nvidia 5700FX Ultra or ATI X300
120GB HD 8X Superdrive
10/100/1000
$1499
Powermac G5 2.5Ghz 970MP
1Ghz FSB
1024MB of RAM (16GB Max)
4 PCI Express Slots
Nvidia 6600 GT or ATI X600
160GB HD 16x DL Superdrive
10/100/1000
$2299
Powermac G5 2.8Ghz 970MP Dual Socket
1Ghz FSB
2048MB of RAM
6 PCI Express Slots
Nvidia 6800 Ultra or ATI X800 Premium
400GB HD 16x DL Superdrive
10/100/1000 x2 Dual ports
$3499
Ah there. Enough differentiation and some room between the lines. Cheap on the low end but expandable and expensive on the high end for those that need max expandability.
Originally posted by jasenj1
You guys are killing me with those prices. I bought my B&W G3/350 for $1500. That was a middle of the pack PowerMac at the time. Are processors, etc. that much more expensive these days to justify $3000+ for the CPU? And it's way too many models. One of Steve's big pushes when he came back was to SIMPLIFY the line. Remember that product square thingy he shows off at MacWorlds?
Pro Desktop = PowerMac
Pro Laptop = PowerBook
Consumer Desktop = iMac
Consumer Laptop = iBook
Low, Middle, and High end for each. (PowerBook line currently has 5 models because of SuperDrive option - Don't know why that's not just a BTO line item.)
The eMac is the anomaly. But it started as a special edu only product.
If Apple goes with the pricing you suggest, they just drive a bigger and bigger gap between the iMac and PowerMac product lines.
Maybe I just fall in a demographic Apple's not interested in selling to. I want more power and flexibilty than the iMac offers, but I'm not a pro user so I can't justify/write off the expense of a full-blown workstation class machine that the PowerMac has become (and you are suggesting it go further down that path).
Apple should do with the Pro line what they've done with the Consumer line. Have a high (iMac) and low (eMac) form factor PowerMac. Call the new PowerMac a Home Office or Small Business machine.
Uber-workstation class machines are great for the movie studio, scientific engineering, and product design crowd. But it leaves the enthusiast, gamer, home movie editor, local newsletter publisher with no good options.
- Jasen.
As you mentioned.
- Pro Desktop = PowerMac <--Bingo!
- Pro Laptop = PowerBook
- Consumer Desktop = iMac
- Consumer Laptop = iBook
That is no Pro Desktop. It has not been in a while.What I was emphasizing is that there needs to be a Macintosh Pro desktop for their pro applications used by Pro's. If you look again we called it the ProMac, not the PowerMac.
We pretty much left the PowerMac alone. But, the PowerMac should still be able to run the Pro apps if a consumer wants to upgrade to a more "Power" full version Mac above the consumer line (iMac). The current PowerMac line is sh*t for those in need of a Professional workstation. It has been for a long time.
The regular PowerMac pricing scheme should remain, but I was emphasizing that there is better products out there, and some people are willing to pay the price for configuring in such additional options as a Pro 3D graphics card.
My figures on the ProMac were a bit high without the Nvidia Quadro FX 4400 configured as the option, but I didn't want anyone to get the impression that such a machine wouldn't come at a higher price range than what they are used to seeing. So I inflated it a bit for shock value. If you want an approximation on what such a Machine should cost go to the Alienware site, and configure a Dual AMD Opteron 2.4GHz MJ-12 DCC workstation with an Nvidia Quadro FX 4000. Then figure out what else is important to you and it adds up quickly.
BOXX has a similar pricing scheme, but they don't have the FX 4000 they do have an FX 3000, but in the end theirs is far more expensive for a lesser machine.
Audio, but a digital sequencing application such as Logic,
does not offer much help to musicians or songwriters wishing to make high quality multi-track recordings of voice, acoustic instruments and other miked or line-in analog sounds.
The pre-recorded band in a box idea might be fun for the novice musician, but digital recording and post production of analog sound requires a multi-channel analog to digital interface.
At the time being, Protools still seems to corner the market on the best (though damn pricey) outboard gear needed to get this done in any professional manner. At the very minimum, you need at least 8-16 I/O's
What I was hoping for was a truly professional AUDIO workstation
rather than a 3D rendering workstation.
In either case the (dual) dual core G5 setups mentioned above as
the Apple Pro Series should allow BTO configurations to suite
the needs of any serious professional in either media,
including a G5 compatible, high end sound card. specifically geared for multi-track audio recording.
As far as software, I'm fairly sure that Final Cut Pro HD could be tweaked
a bit more to compete with anything that Protools offers.
As far as software, I'm fairly sure that Final Cut Pro HD could be tweaked
a bit more to compete with anything that Protools offers.
The current cost of Protools gear and plug ins, is still way beyond the financial means of most "starving artists " who simply want to make highest possible quality recordings of their compositions without
taking out a second mortgage.
Until these cost come down, many musicians like me will simply go back to using their good old noisy tape gear and then use their Mac
for burning the final mix off their Macke console..
OS X is the worst platform for OpenGL development, by far. MS and Linux are both about on equal footing.
It is extremely depressing to have a three thousand dollar machine with a top of the line video card and shoddy GL support. I've seen many other developers wondering out loud why they should even be bothering with OS X versions of their apps with the drivers being so buggy and out of date in comparison to the other two platforms.
I just really, really wish Apple would release a single model of a slimmed down PowerMac.
Just imagine a single processor G5 in a minitower that's not so small that it skyrockets costs, like the Cube did. This thing would be marketed as "The Mac the way you want it." It would be geared towards the budget-conscious who don't want to be constrained to the limiting iMac or eMac designs, and can't afford the high price of a Dual PM G5. I truly believe there is a market for this... particularly switchers who weren't happy with Apple's hardware and Mac users that just want a cheap, fast, flexible computer to run OS X on.
This thing should be all about keeping costs down and flexibility open. Easy-access internals should be a given. Only release 1 model to keep price down and to not overlap with existing products. Here's how I see it:
1.8GHz G5
900MHz FSB
512MB L2 cache
256MB RAM
Combo Drive
80GB Serial ATA HD
One PCI slot & one 3.5" drive bay
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
8x AGP
56K internal modem
$999
This is of course after the PM line all gets bumped and starts at 2GHz. eMac line should drop to $599-$799. The PowerMac G5 Express is the perfect computer for those who want a computer and not an internet appliance. $2000 for that is just too much.
If the PM line has gone across the 3GHz line within the next 6-8 months and there are dual cores aviable in good numbers, then might be the time to split the PM to PM and pPM.
Anyone else that get the feeling that SATA is killing FW?
Originally posted by DrBoar
Anyone else that get the feeling that SATA is killing FW?
How can you compare FireWire to SATA? One is a Drive, and the other is a robust data transfer protocol. I don't see the connection.
If you were comparing FireWire to USB 2.0 I would say no because FireWire kicks it's a-ss all over the place.
I really liked the idea of a compact trimmed down cheap G5.
Three GHz was promised this summer, and we got 2.5, so if IBM has gotten their act together, why not expect, say, 3.2?
I maintain my position that 2.8 GHz will be the fastest next time they bump the powermacs.