New G4 noise comments
Hi guys !
Right now, I'm in some computer store in Montreal, and I'm writing this on the new dual 1 GHz. There are two of them in the store, placed on two separate tables and separated by a small wall. The store environnement noise is pretty low, so I'm able to compare the sounds of those new G4, from a pretty "objective" (but non-scientific) point of view. Here are my comments on them.
First, it's about two new dual 1 GHz, separated by a simple glass wall. One of the G4 (Lets call it A) is hooked to the 23 inches LCD display, and the second is hooked to the 17 inches (lets call it
. Configurations are exactly the same. Same ATI 9000 card, same HD, same Ram, basic configuration.
They are both pretty fast. Appears to be very comparable to the 867 MHz (which isn't it this store).
About noise level, YES THEY ARE LOUD ! But not that loud. The AMD in the back (far away in the store) is about the same level of noise, maybe a bit louder. Sound type is different. The A and B machines both makes an acceptable level of noise, not much louder than any powerfull computers I heard recently. But there's a strange things happening here :
The A machine is clearly a bit louder than the B machine. They have the same conf, except A is driving a larger display. A is producing much more heat in the back. Is it because of the 23 inches display ? It's the only difference between these machines !
B makes an acceptable level of noise, it's not as loud as people says on the net. But A is definitely louder, at the limit of my "acceptable" level. B is clearly louder than my good old Mac IIci (which has a very huge power supply and a big fan), but not that much.
That's it for the moment. I must stop writing on the B machine, because the store droids will get mad !
[ 09-04-2002: Message edited by: Kali ]</p>
Right now, I'm in some computer store in Montreal, and I'm writing this on the new dual 1 GHz. There are two of them in the store, placed on two separate tables and separated by a small wall. The store environnement noise is pretty low, so I'm able to compare the sounds of those new G4, from a pretty "objective" (but non-scientific) point of view. Here are my comments on them.
First, it's about two new dual 1 GHz, separated by a simple glass wall. One of the G4 (Lets call it A) is hooked to the 23 inches LCD display, and the second is hooked to the 17 inches (lets call it
. Configurations are exactly the same. Same ATI 9000 card, same HD, same Ram, basic configuration.They are both pretty fast. Appears to be very comparable to the 867 MHz (which isn't it this store).
About noise level, YES THEY ARE LOUD ! But not that loud. The AMD in the back (far away in the store) is about the same level of noise, maybe a bit louder. Sound type is different. The A and B machines both makes an acceptable level of noise, not much louder than any powerfull computers I heard recently. But there's a strange things happening here :
The A machine is clearly a bit louder than the B machine. They have the same conf, except A is driving a larger display. A is producing much more heat in the back. Is it because of the 23 inches display ? It's the only difference between these machines !
B makes an acceptable level of noise, it's not as loud as people says on the net. But A is definitely louder, at the limit of my "acceptable" level. B is clearly louder than my good old Mac IIci (which has a very huge power supply and a big fan), but not that much.
That's it for the moment. I must stop writing on the B machine, because the store droids will get mad !
[ 09-04-2002: Message edited by: Kali ]</p>
Comments
A silencing solution for those pesky power supply fans that seem to be a lot of the culprit. Let's all thank Martin Kaufmann for his excellent How-To-Fix-It report complete with photos.
Brian,
The ATI Radeon 9000 Pro video card has NO FAN. It looks like the same small heatsink that we've seen on old ATI 128 Pro AGP Cards. I was amazed to see this the first time.
The noise is primarily from the power supply's overactive 6800 RPM Delta brand fans putting out an incredible 47 decibles. The above solution lowers that decible reading to a mere 31 decibles @4550 RPM.
[ 09-05-2002: Message edited by: Multimedia ]</p>
<strong>But there's a strange things happening here :
The A machine is clearly a bit louder than the B machine. They have the same conf, except A is driving a larger display. A is producing much more heat in the back. Is it because of the 23 inches display ? It's the only difference between these machines !
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Given the displays are most likely connected via ADC, and are thus powered by the PSUs inside the computers, this sounds quite plausible.
Bye,
RazzFazz
In some sense, this is relatively good news to me, because I'll have the 17" display on my new G4. The B machine (the one with the 17") was less noisy than the other and it made an "acceptable" level of noise (I was scared by all the negtive posts I saw on the net). Under the desk, it should solve the noise problem. Too bad, since it's a nice looking computer, much more beautifull than on photos.
Some people's negative and overreacting post on the noise level are going to shun other people off.
Remember the news about people finding "cracks" in their Cube? That killed half the Cube sales, while the pricetag killed the other half.
This is actively hurting Apple's sales, and thus Apple as a whole. And it doesn't make your machines quieter either.
My brother's G4 400 (Sawtooth) is in my opinion a very quiet machine. Compared to my Beige G3, with 3 additional fans (2 case, 1 CPU) it surely is.
He thinks it's loud. I think my Beige G3 is quiet, compared to my PC (1 CPU fan, 1 12cm case fan, 1 PSU fan, 2 server SCSI harddisks, 2 ATA harddisks, 3 CD-ROMs) it's almost completely silent.
And believe it or not, even my dragster-noise-leveled PC is quieter than some I have seen at LANs.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people who are upgrading from very old, or fairly recent machines won't notice anything else than the pitch change, not the noise level. And that is stuff you get used to very fast.
I'm going to record the bootup sequence of my 3 comps and router here in my room.
If, after publishing that, someone still thinks his setup is loud, let me know.
G-News
<a href="http://www.g-news.ch/files/noise.mp3"; target="_blank">www.g-news.ch/files/noise.mp3</a>
The file is recorded with an Apple Microphone using SndSampler, with an input gain of 1.30. (so you actually hear something) no automatic gain control.
What you hear first is the Beige G3 tower, with the stock PSU/case fan, an additional 8cm case fan and an additional 6cm case fan, as well as a low profile 6cm Pentium cooler fan for the CPU upgrade.
There's an IBM 75GXo 45GB, a WD Caviar 6GB and an IBM Deskstar 9GB SCSI drive in there.
Also the router, cooled with a 8cm fan is in the background, but probably not audible.
Then I turn on a 19" rackmountable Server with a 12cm filtered case fan, a 4cm P2 cooler and a PSU fan (8cm). Harddisk is a 27GB IBM ATA. (machine NHP 300HDplus, <a href="http://www.g-news.ch/articles/nhp300hdplus)" target="_blank">www.g-news.ch/articles/nhp300hdplus)</a>
Lastly I turn on the PC "Workstation" (NP 500XP, <a href="http://www.g-news.ch/articles/nhp500xp)," target="_blank">www.g-news.ch/articles/nhp500xp),</a> featuring a 12cm case fan (Papst), a 8cm PSU fan and a 4 cm P3 cooler. Two internal Quantum and Fujitsu UltraWide Server harddisk, 2 ATA harddrives (seagate and Maxtor) with 800 and 400MB space, and 3 CD-ROMs, 24x, 20x and 2x speed considerably add to the noise.
Low and deep noise I generally from 12cm fans, high pitched whine is from SCSI drives.
Turning off, I first turned off the server, then the PC. Notice how the mac suddenly seems whisper quiet in comparison.
I'm bad a guessing, but I'd guess the Beige G3 is about as loud as the new PMs, the server is probably about 10db louder (twice as loud) and the PC again beats the server by 5 or more db.
Now tell me your PowerMac is louder than that.
G-News
[ 09-05-2002: Message edited by: G-News ]</p>
The B machine (minimum configuration with the 17" display) was noisy, but at an acceptable level. Under the desk it should be fine. The A machine (with the 23" display) was a bit more noisy, with an higher pitch sound (fans rotating a bit faster because of heat). The A machine was about at my maximum tolerable noise level. But this mean that, if I add some guts to those machines, (PCI cards, a second drive, etc) they will be noisier and they will cut my "tolerance line". Maybe they'll be tolerable under the desk, but definitely not on it.
But take note : the PCs in the store made more noise than the A machine. One of them was an ADM sitting alone on a desk, in another part of the store. It was making a noise level a bit higher than the A machine. The sound it made was like air moving, not fans rotating. Another PC, elsewhere in the store, was an Athlon. It was clearly the winner in the noise level. Much more air noise than all other machines in this store. Very annoying. When I heard it, I said to myself "Geez ! I don't want this machine, definitely too noisy".
This was significant, because it's a silent store. Not much people, no sounds from the outside. Very quiet. So I was able to compare the machines.
By the way, the B machine made a sound very similar to what a diapositive projection device makes when in function. Same noise level and same "kind" of sound (air moving, with a rotating fan noise).
I know this may appears very approximate, confused or subjective. IMHO, the new G4 noise level are about at the maximum tolerable for the typical Mac user. The new machine are noisy, but NOT that much, especially compared to PCs. Anyway, Apple should definitely work on this and use premium quality for their fans, even if this may rise the prices a bit. I'm ready to pay for this.
Whatever happened to the technology that was used in the silent iMac?
Does the new iMac G4 have a fan?
Obviously a powerful computer has to process more calculations, therfore has more electricity running through it and will get hotter so it will have to have some sort of fan, but is it seriously as loud as a dustbuster?
Andrew
Oh, and what are those four holes on the front?
The fans rarely runs at their fastest mode. I was able to make them run fast only by opening the G4's case. After closing the case, the fans highest mode then kick in for about 10 secs approximately and suddenly return to the normal mode. In the normal mode, the sound is VERY comparable to the diapos projector noise, both in "volume" (or intensity) and in "quality" (noise type).
The four holes on the front are clearly for air sucking purposes AND decoration. Because the main air entry is just below the case, under the front side. You may place your fingers below the case and feel the fresh air entering the case. Air may come in even if the holes were closed. So I guess the holes are there just to help a bit.
I can't compare with older G4 towers. There were none in the store, yesterday.
The power Mac noise is begining to become a real concern for Mac users, now. This is sad. Some day, because of the CPU power getting higher and higher, we will get to the same noise level as the PCs.
Can we reduce the G4 sound (noise) by placing some rubber sheets inside the case ?
You know, those thick foam like pads, placed everywhere inside the case, may reduce the noise level ? What do you think ?
[ 09-05-2002: Message edited by: Kali ]</p>
there will be allways guys finding "it" acceptable.
The find the puck mouse acceptable and nearly all
Apple feels pleased to serve their customers.
I for myself don't feel as a mac addict but a customer (my wife may think the opposite
Therefore I will post critics if I find something is wrong with this masterpieces of apple-engineering.
The new G4s are loud PERIOD
I own a fast PC too - self assembled - and it is relatively quiet. But my new G4 - under my desk - is loud.
Excuse me: has been loud. Two days after arriving I changed the psu fans. This alone got me about 10 dB.
This week I changed the bit 120 mm fan. Now my Mac is quiet. really quiet.
I believe if you are not a mac-addict you will not be so happy with you mac if you work several hours a day with it. You will spent some extra bucks for new fans.
BTW: If you change fans avoid using ADC-connected monitors. Using them really gets more stress to the psu and then you will need fans with high air throughput.
Apples original fans have 6VA = 12VA allone for the PSU. So be shure to know what you do (read fan specs) if you exchange fans.
And: ADC is a very stupid idea. It brings no benefit to the user to use the psu of the mac for its monitor. It only has bad effects - here noise which would not be neccessary otherwise.
Last: I don´t care with apples sales. This is the duty of apples managers (SJ). Apple should care with its customers - to make good sales. I am one. And if others will profit from my experience its ok.
Apple should read and take care of negative feedback too.
LASTLAST: Over all I find the new macs good machines which make too much wind...
One can also help make that box quieter by:
1. Putting it on the floor under the desk where it belongs IF you are one of those users who thinks that computers belong on the desk next to your ears.
If that's not quiet enough you can also:
2. Swap out the power supply fans by following the excellent tutorial link below.
If it's still too loud then:
3. Surround the PM with an inexpensive foam lined plywood or oak open front and open bottom/top rear box you can build in a few hours.
and/or
4. Buy a desk that has a compartment for the computer that you can line with foam before putting it inside.
This fan fix is going to cost us $20 and a half hour of very easy "work" to reduce the noise by one third. A lot of the MDD PM noise is due to a poor suplier choice by Apple for the twin power supply fans. They just didn't do their homework on those fans. It's very easily fixed. I certainly plan to do this hack. It's a no brainer.
Check it out ? <a href="http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/g4_mirrored_drive_doors/noise_reduction/g4_ddr_noise_reduction.html"; target="_blank">http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/g4_mirrored_drive_doors/noise_reduction/g4_ddr_noise_reduction.html</a>;
I'm on the same page with kiu77 now. My apologies for the anger before I editied this reply today.
[ 09-14-2002: Message edited by: Multimedia ]</p>
[QB]Hi Kali and G_News,
This week I changed the bit 120 mm fan. Now my Mac is quiet. really quiet.
I believe if you are not a mac-addict you will not be so happy with you mac if you work several hours a day with it. You will spent some extra bucks for new fans.
BTW: If you change fans avoid using ADC-connected monitors. Using them really gets more stress to the psu and then you will need fans with high air throughput.
Apples original fans have 6VA = 12VA allone for the PSU. So be shure to know what you do (read fan specs) if you exchange fans.
And: ADC is a very stupid idea. It brings no benefit to the user to use the psu of the mac for its monitor. It only has bad effects - here noise which would not be neccessary otherwise.
Well Put kiu77,
Problem is, One needs to use ADC if one wants twinview without eating a PCI slot right off the bat.
What 120mm fan did you buy to replace the big guy in your PM?
Brand, model number and price please. And what store did you buy it at and why that make and model?
Please thank you.
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
coming from apple, to whom engineering design and aethetics play a big part in their products; then even cared as much as to build an art form (and dead silent) computer.
why a $3k-4k carefully designed computer is so noisy is beyond my understanding, specially considering that the "fixing" doesnt cost more than $100 rrp.
You can build a really powerhorse PC computer (one that smashes any current mac by far) with a noise level as low as 25dB, which is 4-6 times quieter than these G4s.
Heck, do we need to point apple to <a href="http://www.carillondirect.com"; target="_blank">carillon</a>to make them learn about how to build silent (and powerful) computers? didnt apple have the best engineering dpt in the industry?
i'll stay stuck to my icebook500 until some other silent mac appears.
<strong>
why a $3k-4k carefully designed computer is so noisy is beyond my understanding, specially considering that the "fixing" doesnt cost more than $100 rrp.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Has anyone done any testing to see if those silent replacement fans are actually powerful enough to keep the PSU sufficiently cool, even in extreme cases such as a Mac with an ADC-powered display, 4 hard drives, 2 optical drives, and several PCI and FireWire devices, on a sunny summer afternoon? Sure, that's an extreme case, but the fans supplied by Apple must be able to deal with such cases. They can't just use silent but under-powered fans and tell everyone to "avoid using ADC-connected monitors" or something.
Bye,
RazzFazz
[ 09-06-2002: Message edited by: RazzFazz ]</p>
I use my G4 867 QS in my home recording studio and believe you me .. its bloody loud ! this is a mega problem for mixing and recording because the noise interferes with my sound monitoring.... Apple are supposedly making these boxen for pro Audio so how can they justify this is beyond me !
Someone should get the sack over the Apple HW engineering. fixing this problem for the QS and wind tunnel models should have been a very high priority for the company that has just bought Emagic...... blah !
especially considering that its such a simple and cheap solution.... its not like we're talking rocket science here
I would have changed my QS to a new PM but if the new ones are even LOUDER .. there's no way I'm going to do that .
I'll receive my dual 867 MHz next week, and I'm still nervous about the noise problem.
I know that, some time in the future, I'll load this Mac with some internal guts (second HD, better video card, MO drive and maybe a PCI TV card). So this is going to run the machine hotter, and it may be noisier. This is unacceptable.
Begin: Two days after purchase I replaced the two 60 mm fan of the psu with 60 mm Pabst models. This helped a lot because not wind noise is accused to be the annoying sound but the low frequency bearing noise. This you can hear conducted from fan case trough metal enclosure to plastic to air to ear...
You can only do this if you don´t use an Apple ADC-monitor. If you need a second display take an Apple ADC-to-DVI-adapter and connect via DVI.
If you plan to change this psu fans pay attention not to buy thermoregulated fans. The fans are sitting in the cold air stream and therefor never will speed up. Thermoregulation is done by your Mac. So be shure to buy 2 high quality fans with a width of 25 mm.
If you would like to get Pabst fans outside Germany and find it difficult to get one you can order them via <a href="http://www.farnell.com"; target="_blank">www.farnell.com</a> in over 40 countrys. Other brands may be ok too.
Be shure not to buy super low power models. The originals fans use 6 watts of electrical power each. This is very much for 60 mm fans. At least 2.4 watts should be used if you plan to add a second hard drive etc.
A full loaded Mac will be not cool enough with my oder accelarateyourmac modifications. And again I want to warn to change fans if you use ADC-Monitors.
The change of psu fans makes about 10 dB less noise.
Much more difficult is the topic to replace the 120 mm big fan. I first ordered a Enermax 120 mm (width 25 mm) with adjustable speed. It set the speed to maximum. Oh how quiet my Mac has been after replacing the big fan. More quiet than an iMac LCD. But only for five minutes. Then the Mac steps the speed up. 30 secs later down again. And up and down...
I opened the case and found the cooler to be to hot.
Well.
I then orderd the xt fan and decided not to use super low nois but only a big Pabst "low noise" (width 38 mm, type 4212 NGM).
This one uses 3 watts compared to the 2 watts of the super low noise model. Today it arrived and sh... it too makes bearing noise but less than the original Delta fan. Although only beeing a 119 mm fan exactly it has about 0,5 mm thicker edges. So I had to file a little.
The result wa quietness. About 3 dB more noise than the Enermax but way below the original Delta.
But agin the speed startet to cycle up and down after 5 minutes. And the cooler grow to hot for my taste.
So I compared the Pabst and the RC="a free running at 5 V (this is the voltage the board provides to the big fan when the cpus are not much stressed - just surfing). I had to notice the Delta move about three times as much air than the Pabst in identical conditions. Now wonder because the Delta has a power of about 20 watts.
Still not the end of the story:
My last try has been to isolate conductance of the bearing noise using burr stripes (Klettband in german - I don´t know how to translate) to fix the fan avoiding direct contact to the metal parts of the case.
After doing this I saw that the cage for the optical drives doesn't leave enough space and therefore crimps the stripes. So there was only a low acoustical isolation left.
I gave up for the first.
It should be possible to cat out a part of the cage for the optical drives to fix the fan more loosly and get a better isolation.
But I need time to plan something better.
What shall I say? My Mac now sound "just acceptable" with the Pabst psu fans and the original Delta 120 mm fan.
Maybe I will find a better solution for the last over the weekend.
But meanwhile I believe it would be good if someone starts to organize a big worldwide petition for apple to work for a solution. Maybe on a special website...
Any recomendations for quite fans ?
[ 09-09-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>