Ummm, a fire that burned too hot to approach with manned hose teams for about 12 hours??? JP doesn't burn hot enough to fuse anything, just melt metal.
Sure it does--especially when burning in an oven like environment. Jet Propulsion (JP) fuel burning on a runway gets hot enough to melt aluminum. Now fire it up inside a concrete container filled with wood and paper and you have yourself one hot fire. The WTC showed us that when burned in a confined environment that A-1 does in fact burn hot enough to soften Iron girders.
I'm not saying all of the Aluminum burned only some of it. Most of the plane wreckage was turned to shrapnel upon impact IMHO. I'll use a car analogy again: Have you ever seen what happens to a car traveling 90MPH when it crashes or have you ever seen an Indy/Nascar high speed crash? These crashes are relatively low speed when compared to 500MPH. Now add in the fact that airplanes are not designed to withstand the kind a lateral forces flight 77 was subjected to when it rammed headlong into a concrete wall.
Something y'all should take into account is that this accident had a known cause. This was not a typical airline accident where all of the debris must be gathered and sifted through to determine why the plane crashed. They/we knew why it crashed. Because of that the need to meticulously gather all of the plane fragments was lessened. There was no need to reconstruct the engines and airframe to determine the cause of failure so they didn't. The wreckage was sifted through and the human remains gathered. The rest was simply scooped up and trucked away.
Note--JP is Jet Fuel as already stated. There are a few variants such as JP-5 (Navy is the primary user of this) JP-8 (Airforce uses this) and A-1 or Jet-A is the commercial blend. Basically it's all Kerosene with a few other trace ingredients such as Naphtha.
As to why the videos have not been released: Why show terrorist exactly how this was done? The NY attack was too public to keep under wraps. The videos where on TV before the Military knew what was happening (or so it seems). NY is too populated to keep something like that under wraps. The Pentagon OTOH is a lot more isolated. Its easier to keep the details hidden so that terrorist can't take notes and say "you know we could've done more damage if we hit at such height at x speed at some angles yaw and pitch". Why give more information than necessary?
One of the most telling points in this thread so far is how those who accuse anyone doubting that the official version represents the sum of reality re. 9-11, have consistently refused to, or are unable to offer a sensible explanation as to why our government would refuse to release multiple tapes of an event involving a national carrier's aircraft hitting a publicly funded building. Long sentence, phew.
What is best? Blind faith, or absolute proof? Secrecy or openness?
One of the most telling points in this thread so far is how those who accuse anyone doubting that the official version represents the sum of reality re. 9-11, have consistently refused to, or are unable to offer a sensible explanation as to why our government would refuse to release multiple tapes of an event involving a national carrier's aircraft hitting a publicly funded building. Long sentence, phew.
What is best? Blind faith, or absolute proof? Secrecy or openness?
I gave you a reasonable reason. Read my post directly above yours.
I gave you a reasonable reason. Read my post directly above yours.
Unfortunately I don't think that either you or I really believe that answer though. Footage from a gas station isn't going to help anyone crash a plane any better. I think we all need a better response than that.
And the Pentagon isn't isolated in the least. Have you ever driven around it? I don't know where you live or if you have ever visited D.C.
My best guess at this point in time is that the footage would be evidence towards the fact that Bush seriously screwed up on that day.
There have been some test crashes of planes into the type of reinforced concrete structures that the nuclear industry uses for reactor containment buildings and certain other 'hardened' structures. I recall seeing video of one such crash from 1988, but am still googling the actual vidclip.
IIRC, that '88 test was a modified F4 or F104 on a rocket sled driven into the structure faster than any of the 9/11 impacts, and the plane was absolutely shredded... even the engines were in pieces. The structure was barely scuffed.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
As for fuel dripping down stairwells and elevator shafts, sure, but when you are already on the ground floor, you just make icky burning muck with no more downward room to go.
As for fireball size, it would seem reasonable that the Pentagon would generate a larger fireball for the same amount of fuel on board. Just because the WTC is all glass and fuel will act like a near solid at those velocities so much of it will carry into the structure. Solid limestone walls will resist fuel penetration somewhat where there aren't already holes or windows, making more splatter and more fireball because of it.
Spent some time there, but semi-regular use of down under terminology is a less than accurate way to determine location or nationality.
Sure but good enough to know u meant jet petroleum of some sort... I only needed less-than-accurate accuracy
If a person says "y'all" etc. and if they said they like eating at G&G every morning, I'll assume you're talking about grits n' gravy and are some sort of southerner in the U.S...would I be wrong? Sure, if the person is a Russian with a southern affectation ...but not that they meant grits 'n' gravy
Hardly an indictment of who you are as a person Your real identity is still safe
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Remember that very few planes crash head on into a hardened structure, most crash dropping vertically onto belly, side or upside down, so the impact is wide and the debris has a chance to spread out everywhere as does the fuel which is less focussed in its burn.
Some others rip apart pre-crash.
This one is nose first, super fast into something far stronger than the relatively brittle WTC facade (brittle laterally!). These steel beams already are bearing enormous vertical weight. This makes them very brittle from side damage.
Pentagon was a more solid object. The fuel all propelled forward with the entirety of the plane, most of which is aluminum and burns very easily and quickly. There's not all that much steel in planes. Aluminum and composites.
I buy the the majority was swallowed up into the face (the large hole that the water obscures) and it is obvious that there was a large hole there since the collapse literally points to that hole. It all slides down sloping to the left since nothing was supporting it.
Look at how cars crumple down to nothing in impacts. Look at how the WTC planes were consumed immediately in impact.
As much as I'd love for there to be a Bush-sponsored/Israeli supported plan to have the U.S. be attacked Reichstag-style so that he can rise to power (massive EYEROLL) I doubt it. We can have all kinds of fun with that idea. No need to make the Pentagon attack be a fake for that to be true.
I just think a jetliner indeed hit the Pentagon. With people on it. Hijacked by Islamic radicals.
You can then proceed to cobble all kinds of conspiracy theories based on that all you want.
Minor point. Aluminum does burn but it does not generate gas. When wood burns it largely turns into carbon dioxide, a gas, which is carried away in the air. When aluminum burns it forms aluminum oxide which is a refractory material. It doesn't even melt till extremely high temperatures. The point is that even if the aluminum burned it would leave a large pile of ash.
A second point to consider, airplanes are very large but they are mostly composed of empty space. They are not built heavy like buildings.
I always asked myself that question. I think the answer is quite simple: protection. And this is very legitimate imo.
No conspiracy at all.
Crap answer. There is no protection. NOT releasing the films is as dangerous as releasing them. As much as the terrorists might learn, we all might learn more to protect ourselves.
What, praytell, could you possibly learn from that video that would help protect yourself from having a jetliner unexpectedly slammed into your office building?
What, praytell, could you possibly learn from that video that would help protect yourself from having a jetliner unexpectedly slammed into your office building?
What the hell could you learn about flying a plane from watching the video?
Shortly after the beginning of the war in Afghanistan one of Osama's videos was released on TV. The US government was unhappy that network TV was spreading his words. In the video though, he was seen in front of some rock. A geologist watching the news recognized the type of rock and the fact that it was only located in one specific and small region of Afghanistan so he alerted the authorities. Ultimately the US was able to find the location, unfortunately too late. But it's one less place Osama can hide and one of the many videos the US government would have elected to keep private.
Comments
Originally posted by AirSluf
Ummm, a fire that burned too hot to approach with manned hose teams for about 12 hours??? JP doesn't burn hot enough to fuse anything, just melt metal.
Sure it does--especially when burning in an oven like environment. Jet Propulsion (JP) fuel burning on a runway gets hot enough to melt aluminum. Now fire it up inside a concrete container filled with wood and paper and you have yourself one hot fire. The WTC showed us that when burned in a confined environment that A-1 does in fact burn hot enough to soften Iron girders.
I'm not saying all of the Aluminum burned only some of it. Most of the plane wreckage was turned to shrapnel upon impact IMHO. I'll use a car analogy again: Have you ever seen what happens to a car traveling 90MPH when it crashes or have you ever seen an Indy/Nascar high speed crash? These crashes are relatively low speed when compared to 500MPH. Now add in the fact that airplanes are not designed to withstand the kind a lateral forces flight 77 was subjected to when it rammed headlong into a concrete wall.
Something y'all should take into account is that this accident had a known cause. This was not a typical airline accident where all of the debris must be gathered and sifted through to determine why the plane crashed. They/we knew why it crashed. Because of that the need to meticulously gather all of the plane fragments was lessened. There was no need to reconstruct the engines and airframe to determine the cause of failure so they didn't. The wreckage was sifted through and the human remains gathered. The rest was simply scooped up and trucked away.
Note--JP is Jet Fuel as already stated. There are a few variants such as JP-5 (Navy is the primary user of this) JP-8 (Airforce uses this) and A-1 or Jet-A is the commercial blend. Basically it's all Kerosene with a few other trace ingredients such as Naphtha.
As to why the videos have not been released: Why show terrorist exactly how this was done? The NY attack was too public to keep under wraps. The videos where on TV before the Military knew what was happening (or so it seems). NY is too populated to keep something like that under wraps. The Pentagon OTOH is a lot more isolated. Its easier to keep the details hidden so that terrorist can't take notes and say "you know we could've done more damage if we hit at such height at x speed at some angles yaw and pitch". Why give more information than necessary?
What is best? Blind faith, or absolute proof? Secrecy or openness?
Originally posted by sammi jo
One of the most telling points in this thread so far is how those who accuse anyone doubting that the official version represents the sum of reality re. 9-11, have consistently refused to, or are unable to offer a sensible explanation as to why our government would refuse to release multiple tapes of an event involving a national carrier's aircraft hitting a publicly funded building. Long sentence, phew.
What is best? Blind faith, or absolute proof? Secrecy or openness?
I gave you a reasonable reason. Read my post directly above yours.
Originally posted by faust9
I gave you a reasonable reason. Read my post directly above yours.
Unfortunately I don't think that either you or I really believe that answer though. Footage from a gas station isn't going to help anyone crash a plane any better. I think we all need a better response than that.
And the Pentagon isn't isolated in the least. Have you ever driven around it? I don't know where you live or if you have ever visited D.C.
My best guess at this point in time is that the footage would be evidence towards the fact that Bush seriously screwed up on that day.
IIRC, that '88 test was a modified F4 or F104 on a rocket sled driven into the structure faster than any of the 9/11 impacts, and the plane was absolutely shredded... even the engines were in pieces. The structure was barely scuffed.
Studies since 9/11 reference similar science.
Originally posted by neutrino23
I've barely followed this but I have a question. If flight 77 did not hit the pentagon then what happened to it and the people that were on board?
Ever see close encounters?
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
As for fuel dripping down stairwells and elevator shafts, sure, but when you are already on the ground floor, you just make icky burning muck with no more downward room to go.
As for fireball size, it would seem reasonable that the Pentagon would generate a larger fireball for the same amount of fuel on board. Just because the WTC is all glass and fuel will act like a near solid at those velocities so much of it will carry into the structure. Solid limestone walls will resist fuel penetration somewhat where there aren't already holes or windows, making more splatter and more fireball because of it.
Originally posted by AirSluf
Spent some time there, but semi-regular use of down under terminology is a less than accurate way to determine location or nationality.
Sure but good enough to know u meant jet petroleum of some sort...
If a person says "y'all" etc. and if they said they like eating at G&G every morning, I'll assume you're talking about grits n' gravy and are some sort of southerner in the U.S...would I be wrong? Sure, if the person is a Russian with a southern affectation
Hardly an indictment of who you are as a person
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Some others rip apart pre-crash.
This one is nose first, super fast into something far stronger than the relatively brittle WTC facade (brittle laterally!). These steel beams already are bearing enormous vertical weight. This makes them very brittle from side damage.
Pentagon was a more solid object. The fuel all propelled forward with the entirety of the plane, most of which is aluminum and burns very easily and quickly. There's not all that much steel in planes. Aluminum and composites.
I buy the the majority was swallowed up into the face (the large hole that the water obscures) and it is obvious that there was a large hole there since the collapse literally points to that hole. It all slides down sloping to the left since nothing was supporting it.
Look at how cars crumple down to nothing in impacts. Look at how the WTC planes were consumed immediately in impact.
As much as I'd love for there to be a Bush-sponsored/Israeli supported plan to have the U.S. be attacked Reichstag-style so that he can rise to power (massive EYEROLL) I doubt it. We can have all kinds of fun with that idea. No need to make the Pentagon attack be a fake for that to be true.
I just think a jetliner indeed hit the Pentagon. With people on it. Hijacked by Islamic radicals.
You can then proceed to cobble all kinds of conspiracy theories based on that all you want.
A second point to consider, airplanes are very large but they are mostly composed of empty space. They are not built heavy like buildings.
Originally posted by bunge
Why don't they just release the films of the impact? The attacks on the WTC are widely available, why not these?
I always asked myself that question. I think the answer is quite simple: protection. And this is very legitimate imo.
No conspiracy at all.
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
I always asked myself that question. I think the answer is quite simple: protection. And this is very legitimate imo.
No conspiracy at all.
Crap answer. There is no protection. NOT releasing the films is as dangerous as releasing them. As much as the terrorists might learn, we all might learn more to protect ourselves.
Your answer is no answer at all.
::best Foghorn Leghorn accent::
I demand, I say, I demand an INVESTIGATION!!!
I'd laugh if it wasn't so serious and probably true.
Who has the list of contractors involved in the rebuilding? Are they publicly held?
Originally posted by drewprops
What, praytell, could you possibly learn from that video that would help protect yourself from having a jetliner unexpectedly slammed into your office building?
What the hell could you learn about flying a plane from watching the video?
Shortly after the beginning of the war in Afghanistan one of Osama's videos was released on TV. The US government was unhappy that network TV was spreading his words. In the video though, he was seen in front of some rock. A geologist watching the news recognized the type of rock and the fact that it was only located in one specific and small region of Afghanistan so he alerted the authorities. Ultimately the US was able to find the location, unfortunately too late. But it's one less place Osama can hide and one of the many videos the US government would have elected to keep private.