This 21st Century Holy Grail comes in the form of a recent FCC regulation requiring all cable companies to provide a Firewire-enabled Cable box to any customer who asks. (Yes, some government agencies are still on our side after all!) This law went into effect April 1st, and by now most Cable companies have complied.
So Apple could devise a device that could use Firewire to interface with set top boxes. Play iTunes playlists, watch iMovies, play trailers, watch DVD's all from your Mac. What about TiVo like control over the set top box? (without the need for IR).
How about the other direction? Play movies on your Mac via Firewire or Airport Extreme (or FireWireless?) .Mac could make itself useful by publishing channel guides like TiVo does.
Heck, Just buy TiVo and build it in to the "iServe"
Buying TiVo aint such a bad idea. It may fall under "not invented here" syndrome, but then again, neither was Shake or Logic. TiVo does have Apple-size brand recognition though.
The other option is an Apple-branded TiVo. But based on all the improvements Apple would bring to the already stellar product, maybe they should build it in house.
Apple had better get something out there before Microsoft (or someone else) gets it right. To leave Microsoft unopposed in this area is to concede the digital convergence of television to Monopoly forces
Thing is, they're not necessarily unopposed. There's TiVO, but more importantly, the cable and satellite companies are starting to roll their own TiVO-like devices as set top boxes. Since they're also the ones supplying the signal, they might be able to muscle out any other players. On the other hand, it just takes one stupid company to let MS into the fold, like DirectTV has (wisely) done with TiVO, and the ball starts to roll. Let's not forget the Sonys and Philips of the world either. In any case, I think the signal providers are the 800 lb. gorillas here, and Apple may just be wary of getting into that brouhaha just yet.
Buying TiVO, IMO, could be a very good idea if the market for DVRs and such stays open to third parties like them. TiVO is very close to getting shut out of the market it created, and even MS might find its Media PCs are superfluous to consumers when their cable boxes gain this functionality just for ordering service.
Exactly. What Apple can do here is add value by contributing a whole new thing, not by trying to compete in one of several insane markets.
How?
AirPort Express AV. One inexpensive, unobtrusive little box that vanishes into any existing setup. A wireless connection to the computer, so that you don't have to buy another PC for your stereo(!?). Then you can stream whatever you want from your Mac to your stereo. The rest, as BuonRotto points out, will be taken care of by dedicated devices whether they're actually better or not, because that's the shape of the "market" right now. Steve has argued that recording is better left to a dedicated device anyway, just because you can 100% guarantee that a TiVo will dedicate all its available resources to its job no matter how many people are using it. You can't guarantee that with the family Mac.
Also, Apple will stay on the good side of the content publishing industry by making the digital media trip one-way from the Mac. Nobody in film or television wants it to be easy to play with their content on the premiere digital editing platform. The Phantom Edit might have thrilled consumers, but it terrified the industry.
One inexpensive, unobtrusive little box that vanishes into any existing setup. A wireless connection to the computer, so that you don't have to buy another PC for your stereo(!?).
Wireless is not fast enough to do this digitally yet.
This is why there is no Wi-DVI, but there IS Wi-RCA and even Wi-S-video.
I think we'll need a sustainable 150 megabit/sec in order to do 1024x768 plus lossless 5.1 channel audio
The logistics of bringing innovation to the market, keeping costs down, making it easy to use, great design and overall marketability have always held us (humanity) back. Today's market makes it even scarier for large companies to release new products, especially with R&D, manufacturing and marketing costs. Personally I don't think Apple will delve into this market, despite the obvious fact that we all want Apple to make something, because we feel they'll make it best. There are so many reasons for Apple not to release an "AV media server", and still it's kind of sad and frustrating that the one company I look towards for inspiration and understanding with regards to the upper echelon of the corporate world and their understanding of the consumer, wouldn't have the "balls" (pardon the vernacular, and I don't think you can oversimplify the issue in this way, if Apple loses we'll all lose)to release something that no one excepted r ever seen before. QuickTime is probably the biggest reason for the enthusiasm, it's the best media "center" out there and still we can't get it to do what we all want. Well at least we have the opportunity to conjecture, perhaps it's more fun that way.
Did any of that make sense? I'm tired; building out my own loft/ production studio by hand it was a long weekend.
Wireless is not fast enough to do this digitally yet.
This is why there is no Wi-DVI, but there IS Wi-RCA and even Wi-S-video.
I think we'll need a sustainable 150 megabit/sec in order to do 1024x768 plus lossless 5.1 channel audio
You're assuming no compression, I take it. Even the audio over AirPort Express is compressed in the Apple Lossless format.
H.264 looks like it might *might* make this possible... dunno about 1024x768, but 640x480 (ie, NTSC quality) should be doable over 802.11g without a problem, and without image degradation any worse than satellite video (which is MPEG-2).
[l]Thing is, they're not necessarily unopposed... [/i]
The key word in my post was convergence, and by that I mean the convergence between digital television and computers. Like it or not only Microsoft is currently adding convergence to their operating system.
TiVo has some convergence features for Macs, but it's a one way trip. El Gato is a convergence device maker, but not incorporated, as in the Media Centers, into the operating system itself. Apple needs to get on this if they want to have a digital hub. Without this capability, the Apple digital hub is missing a spoke.
Not that it matters, but yes. Lossless formats are either a bear to compress & decompress (not gonna happen with anything less than a G5 in real time), or so large they make little difference.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Even the audio over AirPort Express is compressed in the Apple Lossless format.
Apple lossless makes almost no difference. It's something though.
Also, Airtunes only does 2 channels. 6 channels (dolby 5.1) simultaneously in real time would probably require a high-end G4 at one end, and a high-end G3 at the other.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
H.264 looks like it might *might* make this possible... dunno about 1024x768, but 640x480 (ie, NTSC quality) should be doable over 802.11g without a problem, and without image degradation any worse than satellite video (which is MPEG-2).
H.264 is not lossless. Even if it were, NTSC is 60hertz (FPS). That's 18,432,000 pixels/sec (640x480x60hz). In addition, encoding would be pretty dang ridiculous on the fly at those framerates. iChat AV for tiger (which uses H.264) only encodes 1 of those (significantly smaller) streams, and it requires a high-end G4. Imagine 4 times the framerate! ARG!
With Apple lossless and Mpeg2, the bitrate is 29,600kbps, which is technically within the 54mbit limit of 802.11g. However, the amount of power required to compress the stream would be insane.
The ONLY way to do it would be to have it transport pre-compressed media files only. Perhaps in DVD format or something simple.
However, uncompressed, on the fly use of a 2nd display over 802.11g is quite impossible, even at NTSC quality.
From what I understand, H.264 actually uses less power to decode than mpeg2. You should have a look at Wikipedia's entry on H.264. And NTSC is actually 30 FPS (not 60) since only half of the lines are updated every 1/60 sec. As far as Apple lossless codec for audio goes, it gives about a 2:1 compression rate, which, while not extraordinary, is not bad.
That makes the whole thing within range of the 802.11g Wi-fi's 54 Mbps. Apple would probably be wise though to wait for WIMAX, which promises much higher bitrates. Once everything is in the "Apple audio-video box", it's just a matter of using Firewire to send it out to a digital cable box (assuming it's not already integrated).
I don't want my computer in my home theatre -- its too big, too noisy, and too expensive. All I want is a device to access my computer's content, and deliver it to the home theater. Ethernet in, component+digital audio out, whatever decoding in the middle is required, and a remote to control the thing (actually just the codes for my programmable remote would be fine, but in practice that wouldn't fly). $300, dead quiet, looks at home in the A/V rack. The software can just be part of the iLife package -- iTV or something. The hardware is just an interface to the iLife package from your A/V system.
What part of this wish list does TiVo not address? And with TiVo-to-Go, you'll be able to copy recorded TV content onto a computer for burning to disc or viewing on the road.
If you're looking for something that will let you play your pirated divx movies, though, you're going to have to look elsewhere. It will never come from Apple, that's for sure.
Just got off the phone with my buddy. He just won a Tivo 40hr unit from work.
He had a lot of issues setting up up as he has Comcast Cable and Broadband and Vonage. The problems centered around a switch that he bought and his Airport Base Station.
Well it seems he didn't need his switch. He was able to jack into the LAN port on the ABS and get everything working fine. Even after the horrendous trial and error he and his girlfriend love it already. He's even got the Home Media Option working and can listen to AAC files from iTunes(not the protected ones) and view his photos from iPhoto. He says it's really cool.
If Apple's going to compete in this space they'll need to decide on what is cheaper...developing a competitive product from the ground up or just buying Tivo and making that a winner.
My opinion is that Apple definitely needs to be in this space. The iPod has given them incredible mindshare. They can stick it to Microsoft, Virgin and those other wannabes by parlaying iPod success into gold. I've notice that sales from iTunes has tapered somewhat. This could be due to the fact that we still don't have many options for listening to iTunes content in the living room and in the auto.
The iPod is now a 2 billion dollar industry and rising. Apple can easily make it into a 5 billion dollar industry within 2 years by expanding the reach.
What part of this wish list does TiVo not address? And with TiVo-to-Go, you'll be able to copy recorded TV content onto a computer for burning to disc or viewing on the road.
If you're looking for something that will let you play your pirated divx movies, though, you're going to have to look elsewhere. It will never come from Apple, that's for sure.
Price, iLife integration, seamless multiple nodes (i.e. 2+ TVs). My computer has numerous uses for reams and reams of disk storage so if my PVR is on the computer it gives me flexibility in how that disk space is used. Adding storage to a computer is easy, even if I upgrade the computer. TiVo doesn't offer many options here.
Programmer - what if your PVR acts as a file server for your computer as well?
ie: an Apple "iServe" with TiVo functionality and network addressable file storage. With space for four SATA drive modules and soft RAID capability if desired.
I see a product that can be a combination file server / firewall / PVR / AV Hub. Am I being unrealistic to think that Apple could produce such a device starting at ~ $1K?
And would anybody be willing to drop a grand on such a device? I would for sure.
I think it's a great idea... without the PVR capability.
I want a server nowhere near my theatre setup. Apple excels at making their computers quieter than average - but not silent.
PVR in the home entertainment center, networked to the file server? Perfect. An iPVR should be a cheap little device that can access media files off of the server and present them (audio and/or image) on the equipment you already have.
Tivo *almost* has this, but not quite... they don't allow the PVR files to be taken off of their system and stored elsewhere. It's *so close*.
Well it seems he didn't need his switch. He was able to jack into the LAN port on the ABS and get everything working fine. Even after the horrendous trial and error he and his girlfriend love it already. He's even got the Home Media Option working and can listen to AAC files from iTunes(not the protected ones) and view his photos from iPhoto. He says it's really cool.
Hi,
Can you verify that it can play AAC files. I have a TiVO and have been waiting for this functionality (and putting suggestion after suggestion) but have not been able to find/see an upgrade. If it really exists I'll find it.
Programmer - what if your PVR acts as a file server for your computer as well?
ie: an Apple "iServe" with TiVo functionality and network addressable file storage. With space for four SATA drive modules and soft RAID capability if desired.
I see a product that can be a combination file server / firewall / PVR / AV Hub. Am I being unrealistic to think that Apple could produce such a device starting at ~ $1K?
And would anybody be willing to drop a grand on such a device? I would for sure.
So what do I use on my other TV? And these devices typically come with unreplaceable low-end disks. My computer gets whatever I buy for it. Hard disks are noisy so I don't want one in my theatre. I also don't want my theatre devices turned on when I'm not using them. There are all sorts of other reasons to not put the storage at the point of consumption. If I could I would put my computer somewhere other than where I use it from.
Comments
Originally posted by slughead
I think Apple's waiting for a cable box with firewire that's widely available.
Either that or they just don't want to deal with it or don't care.
Theoretically they're already available:
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...40426151111599
Quoting from your link, slughead:
This 21st Century Holy Grail comes in the form of a recent FCC regulation requiring all cable companies to provide a Firewire-enabled Cable box to any customer who asks. (Yes, some government agencies are still on our side after all!) This law went into effect April 1st, and by now most Cable companies have complied.
So Apple could devise a device that could use Firewire to interface with set top boxes. Play iTunes playlists, watch iMovies, play trailers, watch DVD's all from your Mac. What about TiVo like control over the set top box? (without the need for IR).
How about the other direction? Play movies on your Mac via Firewire or Airport Extreme (or FireWireless?) .Mac could make itself useful by publishing channel guides like TiVo does.
Heck, Just buy TiVo and build it in to the "iServe"
The other option is an Apple-branded TiVo. But based on all the improvements Apple would bring to the already stellar product, maybe they should build it in house.
Originally posted by Aphelion
Apple had better get something out there before Microsoft (or someone else) gets it right. To leave Microsoft unopposed in this area is to concede the digital convergence of television to Monopoly forces
Thing is, they're not necessarily unopposed. There's TiVO, but more importantly, the cable and satellite companies are starting to roll their own TiVO-like devices as set top boxes. Since they're also the ones supplying the signal, they might be able to muscle out any other players. On the other hand, it just takes one stupid company to let MS into the fold, like DirectTV has (wisely) done with TiVO, and the ball starts to roll. Let's not forget the Sonys and Philips of the world either. In any case, I think the signal providers are the 800 lb. gorillas here, and Apple may just be wary of getting into that brouhaha just yet.
Buying TiVO, IMO, could be a very good idea if the market for DVRs and such stays open to third parties like them. TiVO is very close to getting shut out of the market it created, and even MS might find its Media PCs are superfluous to consumers when their cable boxes gain this functionality just for ordering service.
How?
AirPort Express AV. One inexpensive, unobtrusive little box that vanishes into any existing setup. A wireless connection to the computer, so that you don't have to buy another PC for your stereo(!?). Then you can stream whatever you want from your Mac to your stereo. The rest, as BuonRotto points out, will be taken care of by dedicated devices whether they're actually better or not, because that's the shape of the "market" right now. Steve has argued that recording is better left to a dedicated device anyway, just because you can 100% guarantee that a TiVo will dedicate all its available resources to its job no matter how many people are using it. You can't guarantee that with the family Mac.
Also, Apple will stay on the good side of the content publishing industry by making the digital media trip one-way from the Mac. Nobody in film or television wants it to be easy to play with their content on the premiere digital editing platform. The Phantom Edit might have thrilled consumers, but it terrified the industry.
Originally posted by Amorph
One inexpensive, unobtrusive little box that vanishes into any existing setup. A wireless connection to the computer, so that you don't have to buy another PC for your stereo(!?).
Wireless is not fast enough to do this digitally yet.
This is why there is no Wi-DVI, but there IS Wi-RCA and even Wi-S-video.
I think we'll need a sustainable 150 megabit/sec in order to do 1024x768 plus lossless 5.1 channel audio
Did any of that make sense? I'm tired; building out my own loft/ production studio by hand it was a long weekend.
Originally posted by slughead
Wireless is not fast enough to do this digitally yet.
This is why there is no Wi-DVI, but there IS Wi-RCA and even Wi-S-video.
I think we'll need a sustainable 150 megabit/sec in order to do 1024x768 plus lossless 5.1 channel audio
You're assuming no compression, I take it. Even the audio over AirPort Express is compressed in the Apple Lossless format.
H.264 looks like it might *might* make this possible... dunno about 1024x768, but 640x480 (ie, NTSC quality) should be doable over 802.11g without a problem, and without image degradation any worse than satellite video (which is MPEG-2).
Originally posted by BuonRotto
[l]Thing is, they're not necessarily unopposed... [/i]
The key word in my post was convergence, and by that I mean the convergence between digital television and computers. Like it or not only Microsoft is currently adding convergence to their operating system.
TiVo has some convergence features for Macs, but it's a one way trip. El Gato is a convergence device maker, but not incorporated, as in the Media Centers, into the operating system itself. Apple needs to get on this if they want to have a digital hub. Without this capability, the Apple digital hub is missing a spoke.
Originally posted by Kickaha
You're assuming no compression, I take it.
Not that it matters, but yes. Lossless formats are either a bear to compress & decompress (not gonna happen with anything less than a G5 in real time), or so large they make little difference.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Even the audio over AirPort Express is compressed in the Apple Lossless format.
Apple lossless makes almost no difference. It's something though.
Also, Airtunes only does 2 channels. 6 channels (dolby 5.1) simultaneously in real time would probably require a high-end G4 at one end, and a high-end G3 at the other.
Originally posted by Kickaha
H.264 looks like it might *might* make this possible... dunno about 1024x768, but 640x480 (ie, NTSC quality) should be doable over 802.11g without a problem, and without image degradation any worse than satellite video (which is MPEG-2).
H.264 is not lossless. Even if it were, NTSC is 60hertz (FPS). That's 18,432,000 pixels/sec (640x480x60hz). In addition, encoding would be pretty dang ridiculous on the fly at those framerates. iChat AV for tiger (which uses H.264) only encodes 1 of those (significantly smaller) streams, and it requires a high-end G4. Imagine 4 times the framerate! ARG!
With Apple lossless and Mpeg2, the bitrate is 29,600kbps, which is technically within the 54mbit limit of 802.11g. However, the amount of power required to compress the stream would be insane.
The ONLY way to do it would be to have it transport pre-compressed media files only. Perhaps in DVD format or something simple.
However, uncompressed, on the fly use of a 2nd display over 802.11g is quite impossible, even at NTSC quality.
That makes the whole thing within range of the 802.11g Wi-fi's 54 Mbps. Apple would probably be wise though to wait for WIMAX, which promises much higher bitrates. Once everything is in the "Apple audio-video box", it's just a matter of using Firewire to send it out to a digital cable box (assuming it's not already integrated).
Originally posted by Programmer
I don't want my computer in my home theatre -- its too big, too noisy, and too expensive. All I want is a device to access my computer's content, and deliver it to the home theater. Ethernet in, component+digital audio out, whatever decoding in the middle is required, and a remote to control the thing (actually just the codes for my programmable remote would be fine, but in practice that wouldn't fly). $300, dead quiet, looks at home in the A/V rack. The software can just be part of the iLife package -- iTV or something. The hardware is just an interface to the iLife package from your A/V system.
What part of this wish list does TiVo not address? And with TiVo-to-Go, you'll be able to copy recorded TV content onto a computer for burning to disc or viewing on the road.
If you're looking for something that will let you play your pirated divx movies, though, you're going to have to look elsewhere. It will never come from Apple, that's for sure.
He had a lot of issues setting up up as he has Comcast Cable and Broadband and Vonage. The problems centered around a switch that he bought and his Airport Base Station.
Well it seems he didn't need his switch. He was able to jack into the LAN port on the ABS and get everything working fine. Even after the horrendous trial and error he and his girlfriend love it already. He's even got the Home Media Option working and can listen to AAC files from iTunes(not the protected ones) and view his photos from iPhoto. He says it's really cool.
If Apple's going to compete in this space they'll need to decide on what is cheaper...developing a competitive product from the ground up or just buying Tivo and making that a winner.
My opinion is that Apple definitely needs to be in this space. The iPod has given them incredible mindshare. They can stick it to Microsoft, Virgin and those other wannabes by parlaying iPod success into gold. I've notice that sales from iTunes has tapered somewhat. This could be due to the fact that we still don't have many options for listening to iTunes content in the living room and in the auto.
The iPod is now a 2 billion dollar industry and rising. Apple can easily make it into a 5 billion dollar industry within 2 years by expanding the reach.
Originally posted by Reid
What part of this wish list does TiVo not address? And with TiVo-to-Go, you'll be able to copy recorded TV content onto a computer for burning to disc or viewing on the road.
If you're looking for something that will let you play your pirated divx movies, though, you're going to have to look elsewhere. It will never come from Apple, that's for sure.
Price, iLife integration, seamless multiple nodes (i.e. 2+ TVs). My computer has numerous uses for reams and reams of disk storage so if my PVR is on the computer it gives me flexibility in how that disk space is used. Adding storage to a computer is easy, even if I upgrade the computer. TiVo doesn't offer many options here.
ie: an Apple "iServe" with TiVo functionality and network addressable file storage. With space for four SATA drive modules and soft RAID capability if desired.
I see a product that can be a combination file server / firewall / PVR / AV Hub. Am I being unrealistic to think that Apple could produce such a device starting at ~ $1K?
And would anybody be willing to drop a grand on such a device? I would for sure.
I want a server nowhere near my theatre setup. Apple excels at making their computers quieter than average - but not silent.
PVR in the home entertainment center, networked to the file server? Perfect. An iPVR should be a cheap little device that can access media files off of the server and present them (audio and/or image) on the equipment you already have.
Tivo *almost* has this, but not quite... they don't allow the PVR files to be taken off of their system and stored elsewhere. It's *so close*.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Well it seems he didn't need his switch. He was able to jack into the LAN port on the ABS and get everything working fine. Even after the horrendous trial and error he and his girlfriend love it already. He's even got the Home Media Option working and can listen to AAC files from iTunes(not the protected ones) and view his photos from iPhoto. He says it's really cool.
Hi,
Can you verify that it can play AAC files. I have a TiVO and have been waiting for this functionality (and putting suggestion after suggestion) but have not been able to find/see an upgrade. If it really exists I'll find it.
Thanks,
Scott
ATI Theater 550 Pro
If you watch the entire demo you will see that ATI expects this chip to be in video cards, PC motherboards, and laptops!
Press Release
Would the upcoming core video in Tiger make good use of this chip? Built in MPEG-2 hardware decoding might be useful for FCP and Motion, No?
Imagine if the rev,2 iMac3 had this chip on it's motherboard! How about if the long awaited Powerbook revisions had this?
Take the digital hub to the next level Apple!
http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2004/4790.html
What gives! Apple, don't let us down.
Originally posted by Aphelion
Programmer - what if your PVR acts as a file server for your computer as well?
ie: an Apple "iServe" with TiVo functionality and network addressable file storage. With space for four SATA drive modules and soft RAID capability if desired.
I see a product that can be a combination file server / firewall / PVR / AV Hub. Am I being unrealistic to think that Apple could produce such a device starting at ~ $1K?
And would anybody be willing to drop a grand on such a device? I would for sure.
So what do I use on my other TV? And these devices typically come with unreplaceable low-end disks. My computer gets whatever I buy for it. Hard disks are noisy so I don't want one in my theatre. I also don't want my theatre devices turned on when I'm not using them. There are all sorts of other reasons to not put the storage at the point of consumption. If I could I would put my computer somewhere other than where I use it from.