Apple releases Mac OS X 10.3.8

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  • Reply 41 of 105
    louzerlouzer Posts: 1,054member
    Oh, crap, I forgot one. You should disconnect all external drives, devices, etc.
  • Reply 42 of 105
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matthew64

    Make this a standard proceedure when installing ANY Apple update:



    1) Run Repair Permissions in the Disk Utility before installing



    2) If it is a major OS update, download the combo update when it is available instead of using Software Update.



    3) Run Repair Permissions again after the update is successfully installed.




    That is, if you want to completely waste your time.



    1. Running Repair Permissions before installing is not going to make one bit of difference. Software Update runs as root, and it does give a damn what the permissions are on the drive. This step literally does absolutely nothing for you.



    2. All Repair Permissions does is make sure the permissions of files on your disk are the same as the permissions that are set in the packages in /Library/Receipts. Plus, there's no One True Way that the permissions need to be for most files. While running Repair Permissions after an update will turn up a list of files that got changed, just because the permissions for a file may be different in the software update you just installed does not necessarily mean that those permissions are wrong. So the permissions for /private/etc/slpsa.conf are -rwxr-xr-x in BSD.pkg but -rw-r--r-- in MacOSXUpdate10.3.8Patch.pkg. Does that mean the 10.3.8 package is wrong? Both sets of permissions work.



    Repairing permissions after an Apple software update is only important if you think Apple would be incompetent enough to release an update with completely FUBARed permissions. I think Apple is better than this, people. In fact, I'd be more inclined to trust the permissions on their newer updates than their older ones, since they could have found a mistake and fixed it in a later version. For example, that slpsa.conf file I mentioned above, which incidentally was the only file that Repair Permissions found with changed permissions when I ran it. The 10.3.8 package says -rw-r--r--. Doesn't that make more sense than -rwxr-xr-x for a configuration file? Why does the executable bit have to be set on that file? It's not a binary or a shell script, it's just a configuration file! Seems to me that someone at Apple actually noticed this was wrong and fixed it, only to have Repair Permissions set it back to the way it came in 10.3.0 or whatever version of Panther the user originally installed. For this reason, I really with Repair Permissions would check the newer Apple packages first rather than the older ones. Of course, if they did that, there wouldn't be a long list of changed files to give people that don't understand what permissions are the sense that they did some mystical voodoo magic which will make their computer run better.



    In short, I could kind of understand if people wanted to run Repair Permissions after installing a third-party package by a vendor you don't trust. And in a setting like a lab, you probably do want to run Repair Permissions every once in a while just to make sure that some file or folder didn't inadvertently become writable by users that shouldn't have write access. And if you want to run Repair Permissions after installing an Apple software update, it probably won't hurt anything, but proclaiming that you must do so is just plain ridiculous. And running Repair Permissions before running a software update is completely pointless, especially if you were going to run it after the update anyway. I guarantee you that there will be absolutely zero difference to any of your files whether you run Repair Permissions before the update or not if you were going to run it afterward. Guaranteed.



    Why is this advice harmful, and why does it get my ire up so much when I hear people parroting it? Well, think about it. By telling newbies that they have to perform this voodoo ritual of running Repair Permissions twice every software update, you've turned a nice, convenient feature into a confusing, time-consuming process. While Software Update is a quick, easy, and painless thing to do when you can just get it started and then go have a cup of coffee and let it finish whenever it's ready, if you have to mess with Repair Permissions it becomes a chore. This is going to breed a generation of users who just don't bother with Software Update because it's a pain in the ass. So you'll end up with unapplied security updates, machines still running 10.3.1, and if someone ever finds a really nasty security hole, all these users will be wide open. You'll also generate a lot of bad press about Apple ("Mac OS X is so retarded, you have to repair permissions every time you do a simple Software Update!"), as we all know the effect these rumors have, whether informed or no.



    In summary, don't listen to the members of the cargo cult of Repair Permissions. They don't understand what is really going on when they do this stuff, and they are out to waste your time.
  • Reply 43 of 105
    louzerlouzer Posts: 1,054member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by CharlesS

    That is, if you want to completely waste your time.



    1. Running Repair Permissions before installing is not going to make one bit of difference. Software Update runs as root, and it does give a damn what the permissions are on the drive. This step literally does absolutely nothing for you.





    Actually, repairing permissions may help things, but, like you said, it has nothing to do with software update. If you're permissions get wonked on some files, things may become unstable or not working properly because some files which should be readable aren't, or some program that should be runnable can't. Repairing these can fix some issues, but that has no bearing on the update. The only thing that repairing permissions before an update can help is if its the permissions of the Installer app (or one of its dependencies) is screwed up (you know, if it loses its 'executable' bit, it can't run!).



    I've run repair permissions many times, and except for the incredibly annoying "cdrom" file system file, and now those stupid 'at' files, the only thing that's ever come up is the utmp/wtmp files, which aren't much use in the normal lives of people (last time I remember, these stored login details and fun stuff like that). So I stopped worrying about it on an update. I've never had a serious permission leak on my computers. Maybe lucky, I guess.



    But look at the brightside, CharlesS. They wonks have stopped telling us to to a pre-bind after every update.
  • Reply 44 of 105
    kcmackcmac Posts: 1,051member
    The guy at Daring Fireball agrees in a more subtle way than Charles. I quit this routine as well since it did seem tedious. I still use the combo updater though because I have the bandwidth and I can.
  • Reply 45 of 105
    bergzbergz Posts: 1,045member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by kcmac

    The guy at Daring Fireball agrees in a more subtle way than Charles. I quit this routine as well since it did seem tedious. I still use the combo updater though because I have the bandwidth and I can.



    What advantages does the Combo have?



    --B
  • Reply 46 of 105
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bergz

    What advantages does the Combo have?



    --B




    If your computer dies and you didn't back up the OS then having a combo 10.3.8 allows you to go straight there in one step rather than running all eight incremental updates to get back to where you came from.



    Of course, some people have so much bandwidth that it's faster to get an update from the net than it is from a backup CD.



    -



    On the startup issues, I believe that there was a solution posted in the 10.3.7 discussions. It has something to do with declaring to your computer that it's okay if it has an ethernet connection but can't actually get onto the internet at the moment.



    Mendosi
  • Reply 47 of 105
    zozo Posts: 3,115member
    CharleS, I never knew about the Cargo Cult thing. Fascinating (learn something new every day indeed)



    Regarding using combo updater inetead of normal: Over the years, and even until the most recent updates, I have seen that a Combo update is sure to update everything properly. Also, as pointed out, its a must have thing when and if you have to do a full re-install. And... because Apple so kindlyy offers updates via the Akamai network, I download at 110% of my bandwidth speed. I downloaded the 107MB update in about 1 minute. Akamai is crazy fast
  • Reply 48 of 105
    :-):-) Posts: 110member
    Hi



    Software Update offers me two 10.3.8 updates, one at 27.7 MB and the other at 16.4 MB



    What's up with that?? Any difference? Should I install both or just one?



    thanks

    :-)
  • Reply 49 of 105
    zozo Posts: 3,115member
    Thats weird.



    I'd just chose Bob
  • Reply 50 of 105
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ZO

    Thats weird.



    I'd just chose Bob




    "I'm never calling it Planet Bob..."



    Also, there seem to be some issues with iShock X flooding the log file with thousands of entries until there is no more hard drive space left. See http://www.macaddict.com/forums/topic/52157 for a discussion.

    (Not SPAM, just one of the other forums I visit and I thought it might be relevant.)
  • Reply 51 of 105
    smalmsmalm Posts: 656member
    I have one HD with 10.3.3 installed, updated step by step to 3.8 and second HD with 10.3.3 installed, updated to 3.7 (combo) and now to 3.8.



    Now for the second installation Software Update offers me security update 2004-09-16 which was for 10.3.4!
  • Reply 52 of 105
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Louzer

    Actually, repairing permissions may help things, but, like you said, it has nothing to do with software update. If you're permissions get wonked on some files, things may become unstable or not working properly because some files which should be readable aren't, or some program that should be runnable can't. Repairing these can fix some issues, but that has no bearing on the update. The only thing that repairing permissions before an update can help is if its the permissions of the Installer app (or one of its dependencies) is screwed up (you know, if it loses its 'executable' bit, it can't run!).



    Yes, but the point was that the guy was recommending running Repair Permission before and after every update! If he's going to run it afterward anyway, it's not going to make any difference that he ran it beforehand whatsoever (well, except for your example of Software Update losing its executable bit, but that's a reeeeally contrived example and not very likely to happen)! It's a classic example of cargo cult behavior - following a ritual that one doesn't really understand in order to obtain a goal that doesn't really have a lot to do with the ritual you're performing. It is not necessary to run Repair Permissions every time you do a software update.



    Repair Permissions is a tool for you to use if you are experiencing some permissions-related problem. There's no need to use it if you aren't having any problems (except, possibly, in a lab setting, where you do want to make sure unprivileged users can't get into places they shouldn't).
  • Reply 53 of 105
    rokrok Posts: 3,519member
    well, i repaired permissions, ran the combo installer, and my internet browsing speed is back! yes! safari would take MINUTES to load pages under 10.3.7 (which is why i would not install it on my home computer), but now it's back to normal!
  • Reply 54 of 105
    aslan^aslan^ Posts: 599member
    Thanks for the cargo cult link, that was a pretty interesting read. I wonder if any of that stuff got saved at all.



    EDIT: theres a link at the bottom of that wiki page that points to a presentation on cargo cults, couple of good pictures in there.



    Also Ill second not repairing permissions for no reason, Ive never had to repair permissions and would only do so if I was having a problem where the recommended solution was to repair permissions. Funnily enough I dont recall ever having so much as a problem where I would have to look up the solution. I guess thats why I switched to a mac three years ago, looking forward to the arrival of my mac mini... to be my second mac.



    I wonder if repairing permissions would fix my three year old battery
  • Reply 55 of 105
    Quote:

    Originally posted by male82uk

    It seems to be that upon start up it tries to read too far into the network after signing on to the mac. However if i take out the network cable then it is as fast as it was before the update 10.3.7. any more ideas cos it's becoming a pain in the arse now as i either have to get to the network cable and unplug before start up or sign on and read the complete shakespeares work!! both seem like a load of hassle that shouldn't be nessesary!! \



    Same problem here. Our DNS servers didn't work this morning for about two hours (the network itself was ok, I was able to print, connect to our database server, etc.). As long as the DNS was out of order the finder took about 2 min. to properly load, ActivityMonitor labeled it in red and as "Finder(Hung)". As soon as access to the internet was again enabled the machine booted as fast as always. Any idea what the Finder is looking up on the network [I never had this problem before 10.3.8]?
  • Reply 56 of 105
    Hey, I just go by recommendations made to me by certified Mac OS dudes! Most of which is precautionary. Anyone who has had issues with updates because a system is having problems can relate. You guys can be as anal as you wish. I stay with the side of caution.
  • Reply 57 of 105
    Quote:

    Originally posted by L'ermite

    Same problem here. Our DNS servers didn't work this morning for about two hours (the network itself was ok, I was able to print, connect to our database server, etc.). As long as the DNS was out of order the finder took about 2 min. to properly load, ActivityMonitor labeled it in red and as "Finder(Hung)". As soon as access to the internet was again enabled the machine booted as fast as always. Any idea what the Finder is looking up on the network [I never had this problem before 10.3.8]?



    This is a welcome surprise cos i found no other people who had problems like this.However the network hasn't had any changes around the time of 10.3.7 update. We do work primarily on a PC network running NT and smb server access to numerous servers however things haven't changed there still.

    The fact that i can open up any other program while it is trying to load finder with no problems confuses things. Opening an internet browser would work but no page would load at all.

    Does any one know how i can get around this hassle or if it is a problem that i will have to put up with and wait for tiger with the promise of improving smb and NT compatibility? Move fun comes when they upgrade the pc system which is in the pipeline too...!

    I can see head aches coming on here!!1
  • Reply 58 of 105
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matthew64

    Hey, I just go by recommendations made to me by certifiable Mac OS dudes!



    Fixed.



    Quote:

    Most of which is precautionary. Anyone who has had issues with updates because a system is having problems can relate. You guys can be as anal as you wish. I stay with the side of caution.



    Well, I've already shown that one of your steps, running Repair Permissions before the update, accomplishes exactly nothing. So your position is on the side of superstition, not caution. And since Repair Permissions after an update isn't necessary 99% of the time, I think those that are rigidly following this voodoo ritual are better candidates for being "anal" than those who aren't.



    But hey, here's a new precautionary measure for you! Always make sure you type 10 copies of the Hail Mary in TextEdit and save them in /tmp in each of RTF, .txt, and Word format before you apply a software update! And then after the update, be sure to do the same thing again! Because to do so is to stay on the side of caution! And if you don't, you're anal!



    Now where's my voodoo chicken...
  • Reply 59 of 105
    Did not realize this was the "prick" forum!!!



    If there's a reason my procedure is not sound, state the reason, some technical reference from Apple and leave it at that.



    No reason to be self-righteous pricks! It you people are in IT, your users must love you.
  • Reply 60 of 105
    louzerlouzer Posts: 1,054member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matthew64

    Hey, I just go by recommendations made to me by certified Mac OS dudes! Most of which is precautionary. Anyone who has had issues with updates because a system is having problems can relate. You guys can be as anal as you wish. I stay with the side of caution.



    Umm, actually following all the recommendations by a certified Mac OS dude is being 'anal' (you know, like people who must make their bed, wash their dishes, and clean the house before going to work, or those who insist on putting dishes in the dishwasher after meals, instead of just piling them in the sink until there's enough to warrant putting them in the dishwasher. I mean, do you know how much effort it is to open the door, put in a plate, and then close the door? But think of the savings when you put in 5 plates at once!).



    Not giving a crap and just downloading is just being "spontaneous".



    But if they were good certified mac dudes, I'm sure they have you doing complete backups before updating (because anyone who doesn't recommend that ain't much of a certified anything. Hell, it'd be like your doctor not telling you to quit smoking. Sure, you might not listen, but they should be telling you, anyway). Of all 'suggestions' I've heard, the only one that makes sense is 'make a full back-up before proceeding'.



    BTW, if you believe repairing permissions before an update is 'sound thinking', you probably should just dump that idea and set up a cron job to repair permissions daily, because if you think there's going to be problems with them, then that's not just an issue with software update, but just running Mac OS X as well. Same goes for running fsck.



    I've always equated the "I follow these steps and never had a problem" quotes to the 'bear patrol' episode of the Simpsons.



    However, if you want to think of it differently, you could just forget the idea that it helps the update, and is just good computer maintenance practice, and what better time to remember to run maintenance tasks then when there's an update (sort of like the recommendations to change your smoke alarm batteries and test those things when you change your clocks, not because the clock change can affect them, but its a way to remember to do that).



    [Oh crap, I forgot a couple of recommended steps! Don't forget to run all your maintenance scripts before and after updating as well! And clear those caches! Man, there's lots of 'suggested' things to do before and after applying an update. You'd think you were upgrading from OS 9 to OS X with the effort some would have you do!]
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