Look I'm no Troll. I plan to buy into Blu-Ray because I feel like this format war is inevitable now and I like movies enough that I'll buy both players. However there's one thing that irks me and it's that too many Blu-Ray fans simply do not know enough about the fomat to sell it right.
Here's some pointers
Storage
Blu-Ray has an advantage in storage but that really is only going to come into play for BD-R and BD-RE. For movie distribution the extra space doesn't really come into play. Studios aren't going to start packing a bunch of movies on disc because they can unless we're talking about series like the Sopranos and more. That's only like less than %10 of the market. Not something you can really sell someone on in most circumstance.
Computer Companies
Forget the computer companies. I work in the industry and if doesn't matter one hoot that Apple, Dell and HP are support BD. These people order parts and put'em in a box. They do design but on a very small scale. Everything they do now is generally outsourced..they manufacture nothing. Thus I roll my eyes when this is brought up. We have to extrapolate then needs of the computing industry with that of movie distribution. If I'm releasing a movie on disc I'm not overly concerned with it's application as a computer storage device. In fact I may wish that my intellectual property is NOT on a computer for fear of piracy.
PS3
Do not bring up the PS3 it'll only make you look like a fool. The PS3 is not due to 2H 2006. No one knows what it's going to cost. And it really doesn't help your point.
Do bring up the technical merits of BD that every studio should be keen on.
Do bring up the Java support in the player(BD-j).
Do bring up that BD navigation features that blow DVD away.
Graphics Planes two full resolution frame accurate "overlays". One handles the subtitles which can be moved or color changed for even font changed. The other is for menus and buttons and is available at any time. Ever notice how when sifting through the extras on a DVD that you have to navigate back to a Main Menu? With BD that's over...a press of a button displays a navigation set of buttons from anywhere on the disc.
Buttons are 256 colors have animation and sounds for feedback. Menu pages can be chosen and navigated without interrupting the audio/video stream.
BD-J mode. Full Java support! A BD disc can be authored in pure Java with millions of colors and graphics support. Scaling of video is supported for that "Picture in Picture" effect.
Internet Connection- Yes the BD players in some cases will be able to connect to the internet and grab content or unlock other sections of Audio/Video programming. Imagine PBS offering discs in BD that a user could then login and see information from their website based on the DVD!
The BD Player may offer flash memory for storing just about whatever you want. There's even support for Hard Drives built right in.
In short BD is a tour de force that your studio, whether it be a game or movie studio, should be looking at and imagining the possibilities. Good luck .
Do not bring up the PS3 it'll only make you look like a fool. The PS3 is not due to 2H 2006. No one knows what it's going to cost. And it really doesn't help your point.
hmurchison,
I think you're underestimating this point. I know PS3 won't be out until Q4 2006 but
1) by Q4 2006 neither HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc players may be either affordable, adopted by the masses or the dominant format.
2) PS3 may be priced very agressively since Sony will be competing with the Xbox360 and the Nintendo Revolution.
Most likely Sony will be selling it at a loss, so it might be fair to say the PS3 could be an affordable Blu-Ray disc player. Who knows what the prices on non-gaming machines B-RD players will be by Q4 2006, but the fact that you can play games and movies on the same device will be appealing to many and with the market the PS3 is going after (let's say adults 18-35), I wouldn't dismiss it as an irrelevant fact.
Now I'm not saying that Blu-Ray disc support on PS3 is essential to the survival or dominance of the format, but I just think you can't say it's a non-issue either. The gaming crowd is a huge one will probably help the format become very popular. Just my 2 cents on the matter.
Hard as I try, I can't get my pants wet over those "features".
I knows strobe. It'll depend on how fluid they work in the real world. I can see why disc authors are a little jazzed about Blu-Ray as long as the costs are close enough to HD-DVD.
MonkeyAstronaught- Yeah I don't want to trivialize the importance of the PS3 for BD but it's rather premature to use it as a statement that BD will have some advantage from it. We'll see..this is going to be interesting.
Apple and Panny have been working together closely. Note that Panny is the one large company that isn't supporting HDV for HD recording. Panny has to have something coming and April might be that timeframe.
I don't know how this will tie into Blu-Ray but anything is possible right now.
Blu-Ray has an advantage in storage but that really is only going to come into play for BD-R and BD-RE. For movie distribution the extra space doesn't really come into play. Studios aren't going to start packing a bunch of movies on disc because they can unless we're talking about series like the Sopranos and more. That's only like less than %10 of the market. Not something you can really sell someone on in most circumstance.
Ever watch a movie on two DVDs? Don't you love the part where it asks you to switch discs?
Longer movies may not be a large part of the overall market, but they make up a larger proportion of the movies actually worth watching. Furthermore, with sequels so popular these days, the production studios can cram two or three movies on a single blue ray DVD, then sell them for the price of three movies for a greater margin compared to three discs. Finally, consider all those movies that fit on one DVD, but require a second for special features. If the production company can fit everything on one disc, higher margins.
I pretty much agree with you that Blue Ray is dead in the water, but not for the reasons you describe. You're being too logical about all this. Corporations are not logical, they simply choose the path of least resistance and charge - being careful not to peer more than a financial quarter or two into the future. HD-DVD is the path of least resistance, since it requires less initial investment.
Ever watch a movie on two DVDs? Don't you love the part where it asks you to switch discs?
Longer movies may not be a large part of the overall market, but they make up a larger proportion of the movies actually worth watching. Furthermore, with sequels so popular these days, the production studios can cram two or three movies on a single blue ray DVD, then sell them for the price of three movies for a greater margin compared to three discs. Finally, consider all those movies that fit on one DVD, but require a second for special features. If the production company can fit everything on one disc, higher margins.
I pretty much agree with you that Blue Ray is dead in the water, but not for the reasons you describe. You're being too logical about all this. Corporations are not logical, they simply choose the path of least resistance and charge - being careful not to peer more than a financial quarter or two into the future. HD-DVD is the path of least resistance, since it requires less initial investment.
Lord of the rings extended editions, and gift sets all have 4 DVD's. It would be nice to get them all on one. One for each version that is. 3 dvd's, and not 12.
I hope that means DVD-RAM support. I love that format. My DVD recorder supports it and it's very cool and erasable 100,000 times. Probably won't happen tho.
You know the real lynchpin here is going to be an acceptable bitrate for AVC or VC-1.
I'm hearing a bunch of guesses but we won't know until more encoders ship(meaning Tiger and QT7)
For instance
Let's say AVC HD looks good at 12mbps
Then the video consumers 5.5GB per hour and then we can toss in about 6Mbps throughput for the new lossles DTC or Dolby Digital + and we're at 18Mbps total meaning about 8.1GB for hour. Single Layer HD-DVD just misses the mark at 15GB so a dual layer is required.
But if AVC requires 15-16Mbps to equal 19.8 ATSC MPEG2 broadcasts then our numbers jump even more.
This is the problem. Blu-Rays storage is definite advantage when looking at the single layer discs which Hollywood loves because because of the costs of manufacturing.
If AVC and VC-1 don't shine at 12Mbps or lower then HD-DVD is going to be in trouble because they'll have to go dual layer to support the lossles audio and extras. Advantage Blu-Ray.
This format war is going to be more complex than it would normally appear. HD-DVD's success hinges on using the effecient codecs. BD hinges on packaging its wonderful tech at an affordable price.
Rdram had 3.2 gigs of mem band at pc800 dual channel and it was faster than DDR266(pc2100).
But Dram makers where looking at it this way the move from sdram to ddr was they could use mostly all existing equipment they owned and ddr was based mostly on Sdram Something dram maker where making for years and the investment in R&d.
To make Rdram they had to buy alot of new equipment to replace what they had and then they had to pretty much throw away all there money invested into Sdram and there was royalties on top of that.Then the down time of getting and replacing new equipment.
Now with Dvd disk makers can pretty much move to hd-dvd.It will cost them Alot less to move to hd-dvd than BRay.If they move to blue ray most of the equipment possably is not goin to work with b-ray and then they will have to buy equipment,spend more money inproving the making of the disk,training workers and then the the money lost in sales when u are not making as many disk's per day becuse of removing and adding new equipment.
My 44MB Syquest disks still work which is more than I can say about most of my 2yr old software CDs.
Umm...what the hell are you doing to your CDs? I don't have a single 2 year old CD that doesn't work. In fact I don't have a 5 year old CD that doesn't work. I don't really take great care of them I just don't slide them over asphalt...
Will Sony's latest peace offering be shot down as well? The HD-DVD camp would have nothing to do with it the last time. They wouldn't even agree to discuss it. I can't imagine what kind of compromise is being offered by Sony but at least they are trying. Makes me want to go with Sony/Blu-Ray even more.
Will Sony's latest peace offering be shot down as well? The HD-DVD camp would have nothing to do with it the last time. They wouldn't even agree to discuss it. I can't imagine what kind of compromise is being offered by Sony but at least they are trying. Makes me want to go with Sony/Blu-Ray even more.
And just what "offering" is this? I'm all for a unification of sorts but there is little real information on how that can happen coming from this Sony exec.
I agree, the article has no real information. It seems to me the only real "compromise" is for one side to give up, which doesn't seem likely.
Now a question. I recently upgrade my receiver to a 7.1 one. Looking through my DVDs, including some very recent ones, I found only one at 6.1 and none at 7.1. Is 6.1 and 7.1 just a marketing gimmick, or at present is there not enough room on the disk for expanded sound? How does additional capacity for expanded sound enter into the DVD HD/BR debate or do both formats have enough capacity so that it doesn't really matter?
And just what "offering" is this? I'm all for a unification of sorts but there is little real information on how that can happen coming from this Sony exec.
Here is what I think a good unification would be.
Both formats use a blue laser. That being said. I don't think it says anywhere that the blue laser can't read the red laser DVD content. (but red wont read the blue) So, I think that if all the Hardware DVD players were made using the blue laser technology from the start, sony would have the players out there, (couple pennies per player on the patent) and HD-DVD, and Blue DVD's could both be used as they were needed. THis would be in everybody's best interest, The Studios, the Consumer, and the 2 competing camps.
Comments
Look I'm no Troll. I plan to buy into Blu-Ray because I feel like this format war is inevitable now and I like movies enough that I'll buy both players. However there's one thing that irks me and it's that too many Blu-Ray fans simply do not know enough about the fomat to sell it right.
Here's some pointers
Storage
Blu-Ray has an advantage in storage but that really is only going to come into play for BD-R and BD-RE. For movie distribution the extra space doesn't really come into play. Studios aren't going to start packing a bunch of movies on disc because they can unless we're talking about series like the Sopranos and more. That's only like less than %10 of the market. Not something you can really sell someone on in most circumstance.
Computer Companies
Forget the computer companies. I work in the industry and if doesn't matter one hoot that Apple, Dell and HP are support BD. These people order parts and put'em in a box. They do design but on a very small scale. Everything they do now is generally outsourced..they manufacture nothing. Thus I roll my eyes when this is brought up. We have to extrapolate then needs of the computing industry with that of movie distribution. If I'm releasing a movie on disc I'm not overly concerned with it's application as a computer storage device. In fact I may wish that my intellectual property is NOT on a computer for fear of piracy.
PS3
Do not bring up the PS3 it'll only make you look like a fool. The PS3 is not due to 2H 2006. No one knows what it's going to cost. And it really doesn't help your point.
Do bring up the technical merits of BD that every studio should be keen on.
Do bring up the Java support in the player(BD-j).
Do bring up that BD navigation features that blow DVD away.
Graphics Planes two full resolution frame accurate "overlays". One handles the subtitles which can be moved or color changed for even font changed. The other is for menus and buttons and is available at any time. Ever notice how when sifting through the extras on a DVD that you have to navigate back to a Main Menu? With BD that's over...a press of a button displays a navigation set of buttons from anywhere on the disc.
Buttons are 256 colors have animation and sounds for feedback. Menu pages can be chosen and navigated without interrupting the audio/video stream.
BD-J mode. Full Java support! A BD disc can be authored in pure Java with millions of colors and graphics support. Scaling of video is supported for that "Picture in Picture" effect.
Internet Connection- Yes the BD players in some cases will be able to connect to the internet and grab content or unlock other sections of Audio/Video programming. Imagine PBS offering discs in BD that a user could then login and see information from their website based on the DVD!
The BD Player may offer flash memory for storing just about whatever you want. There's even support for Hard Drives built right in.
In short BD is a tour de force that your studio, whether it be a game or movie studio, should be looking at and imagining the possibilities. Good luck .
Originally posted by hmurchison
PS3
Do not bring up the PS3 it'll only make you look like a fool. The PS3 is not due to 2H 2006. No one knows what it's going to cost. And it really doesn't help your point.
hmurchison,
I think you're underestimating this point. I know PS3 won't be out until Q4 2006 but
1) by Q4 2006 neither HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc players may be either affordable, adopted by the masses or the dominant format.
2) PS3 may be priced very agressively since Sony will be competing with the Xbox360 and the Nintendo Revolution.
Most likely Sony will be selling it at a loss, so it might be fair to say the PS3 could be an affordable Blu-Ray disc player. Who knows what the prices on non-gaming machines B-RD players will be by Q4 2006, but the fact that you can play games and movies on the same device will be appealing to many and with the market the PS3 is going after (let's say adults 18-35), I wouldn't dismiss it as an irrelevant fact.
Now I'm not saying that Blu-Ray disc support on PS3 is essential to the survival or dominance of the format, but I just think you can't say it's a non-issue either. The gaming crowd is a huge one will probably help the format become very popular. Just my 2 cents on the matter.
Originally posted by strobe
Hard as I try, I can't get my pants wet over those "features".
I knows strobe. It'll depend on how fluid they work in the real world. I can see why disc authors are a little jazzed about Blu-Ray as long as the costs are close enough to HD-DVD.
MonkeyAstronaught- Yeah I don't want to trivialize the importance of the PS3 for BD but it's rather premature to use it as a statement that BD will have some advantage from it. We'll see..this is going to be interesting.
Watch it very closely.
Originally posted by Sam Damon
Watch the Apple-Panasonic connection.
Watch it very closely.
Do you mean the Apple pioneer connection, or has Apple made a new connection?
Originally posted by onlooker
Do you mean the Apple pioneer connection, or has Apple made a new connection?
No.
I mean the Apple-Panasonic connection. Those working with FCP get it. If you're not, start digging.
Have a nice day.
Apple and Panny have been working together closely. Note that Panny is the one large company that isn't supporting HDV for HD recording. Panny has to have something coming and April might be that timeframe.
I don't know how this will tie into Blu-Ray but anything is possible right now.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Storage
Blu-Ray has an advantage in storage but that really is only going to come into play for BD-R and BD-RE. For movie distribution the extra space doesn't really come into play. Studios aren't going to start packing a bunch of movies on disc because they can unless we're talking about series like the Sopranos and more. That's only like less than %10 of the market. Not something you can really sell someone on in most circumstance.
Ever watch a movie on two DVDs? Don't you love the part where it asks you to switch discs?
Longer movies may not be a large part of the overall market, but they make up a larger proportion of the movies actually worth watching. Furthermore, with sequels so popular these days, the production studios can cram two or three movies on a single blue ray DVD, then sell them for the price of three movies for a greater margin compared to three discs. Finally, consider all those movies that fit on one DVD, but require a second for special features. If the production company can fit everything on one disc, higher margins.
I pretty much agree with you that Blue Ray is dead in the water, but not for the reasons you describe. You're being too logical about all this. Corporations are not logical, they simply choose the path of least resistance and charge - being careful not to peer more than a financial quarter or two into the future. HD-DVD is the path of least resistance, since it requires less initial investment.
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Ever watch a movie on two DVDs? Don't you love the part where it asks you to switch discs?
Longer movies may not be a large part of the overall market, but they make up a larger proportion of the movies actually worth watching. Furthermore, with sequels so popular these days, the production studios can cram two or three movies on a single blue ray DVD, then sell them for the price of three movies for a greater margin compared to three discs. Finally, consider all those movies that fit on one DVD, but require a second for special features. If the production company can fit everything on one disc, higher margins.
I pretty much agree with you that Blue Ray is dead in the water, but not for the reasons you describe. You're being too logical about all this. Corporations are not logical, they simply choose the path of least resistance and charge - being careful not to peer more than a financial quarter or two into the future. HD-DVD is the path of least resistance, since it requires less initial investment.
Lord of the rings extended editions, and gift sets all have 4 DVD's. It would be nice to get them all on one. One for each version that is. 3 dvd's, and not 12.
Originally posted by Sam Damon
Watch the Apple-Panasonic connection.
Watch it very closely.
I hope that means DVD-RAM support. I love that format. My DVD recorder supports it and it's very cool and erasable 100,000 times. Probably won't happen tho.
I'm hearing a bunch of guesses but we won't know until more encoders ship(meaning Tiger and QT7)
For instance
Let's say AVC HD looks good at 12mbps
Then the video consumers 5.5GB per hour and then we can toss in about 6Mbps throughput for the new lossles DTC or Dolby Digital + and we're at 18Mbps total meaning about 8.1GB for hour. Single Layer HD-DVD just misses the mark at 15GB so a dual layer is required.
But if AVC requires 15-16Mbps to equal 19.8 ATSC MPEG2 broadcasts then our numbers jump even more.
This is the problem. Blu-Rays storage is definite advantage when looking at the single layer discs which Hollywood loves because because of the costs of manufacturing.
If AVC and VC-1 don't shine at 12Mbps or lower then HD-DVD is going to be in trouble because they'll have to go dual layer to support the lossles audio and extras. Advantage Blu-Ray.
This format war is going to be more complex than it would normally appear. HD-DVD's success hinges on using the effecient codecs. BD hinges on packaging its wonderful tech at an affordable price.
Rdram had 3.2 gigs of mem band at pc800 dual channel and it was faster than DDR266(pc2100).
But Dram makers where looking at it this way the move from sdram to ddr was they could use mostly all existing equipment they owned and ddr was based mostly on Sdram Something dram maker where making for years and the investment in R&d.
To make Rdram they had to buy alot of new equipment to replace what they had and then they had to pretty much throw away all there money invested into Sdram and there was royalties on top of that.Then the down time of getting and replacing new equipment.
Now with Dvd disk makers can pretty much move to hd-dvd.It will cost them Alot less to move to hd-dvd than BRay.If they move to blue ray most of the equipment possably is not goin to work with b-ray and then they will have to buy equipment,spend more money inproving the making of the disk,training workers and then the the money lost in sales when u are not making as many disk's per day becuse of removing and adding new equipment.
Originally posted by strobe
My 44MB Syquest disks still work which is more than I can say about most of my 2yr old software CDs.
Umm...what the hell are you doing to your CDs? I don't have a single 2 year old CD that doesn't work. In fact I don't have a 5 year old CD that doesn't work. I don't really take great care of them I just don't slide them over asphalt...
Originally posted by 1984
Will Sony's latest peace offering be shot down as well? The HD-DVD camp would have nothing to do with it the last time. They wouldn't even agree to discuss it. I can't imagine what kind of compromise is being offered by Sony but at least they are trying. Makes me want to go with Sony/Blu-Ray even more.
And just what "offering" is this? I'm all for a unification of sorts but there is little real information on how that can happen coming from this Sony exec.
Now a question. I recently upgrade my receiver to a 7.1 one. Looking through my DVDs, including some very recent ones, I found only one at 6.1 and none at 7.1. Is 6.1 and 7.1 just a marketing gimmick, or at present is there not enough room on the disk for expanded sound? How does additional capacity for expanded sound enter into the DVD HD/BR debate or do both formats have enough capacity so that it doesn't really matter?
Originally posted by hmurchison
And just what "offering" is this? I'm all for a unification of sorts but there is little real information on how that can happen coming from this Sony exec.
Here is what I think a good unification would be.
Both formats use a blue laser. That being said. I don't think it says anywhere that the blue laser can't read the red laser DVD content. (but red wont read the blue) So, I think that if all the Hardware DVD players were made using the blue laser technology from the start, sony would have the players out there, (couple pennies per player on the patent) and HD-DVD, and Blue DVD's could both be used as they were needed. THis would be in everybody's best interest, The Studios, the Consumer, and the 2 competing camps.