Yeah, when 10.3 came out, jumping in full bore was such a great idea! Unless you were stupid enough to turn on encrypting your home folder. Or you stupidly had firewire drives connected to your mac. Why would anyone jump right in with Apple's history of having such brutal bugs on the initial release.
The original poster basically was pointing out a sound strategy. Wait for the idiots, um, I mean the brave, er, 'early adopters' to install the new OS, find all the huge problems that are bound to be in there, and wait for them to be solved. No one's saying "If it ain't perfect, I'm not touching it!". But, you know, if you're going to offer a feature like File Vault, shouldn't you at least try to make sure it doesn't corrupt and destroy ALL your data???
Agreed, with one caveat. Not all early adopters are fools who rush in (you know the rest). The smart ones test on non-mission-critical systems with many redundant backups. They provide a service to the community (as well as to themselves). Watch places like macfixit for bug reports, and then commit or wait for a point release (though those, to be sure, have their share of bugs as well, and the advice above applies to them as well).
You guys are thrilled, but I'm not. Bugs will have to wait for the point release. This is what I've been afraid of.
If you're the same melgross who reads and posts on arstechnica, wait a few weeks for the early adopters to try it out and find serious bugs. Actually, whether or not you're the same person, I'd suggest two sites to check during the days/weeks after the Tiger release:
Early adopters there will probably have reports out after a few days and you can decide whether any bugs found are critical for you.
Personally, I think you're right to be cautious. I well remember the Panther Firewire bug and I daily thank Dog it did not bite me. Some fanbois here would rather forget that one and just tell you "yippee! Install!" (Oops! You mean installing your brand spanking new OS just trashed my external hard drive? Thanks, Apple!)
Then after that you get to decide whether the Tiger bugs are worse than the Panther bugs, and proceed from there
Some of us are developers, and cannot afford to be behind on OS updates, since we have to make sure our software works with them.
And I, for one, do not appreciate being called an idiot.
Charles, see my 2 posts above. A lot of The Rest Of Us (who read macfixit and the like) do apprecate the services early adopters provide -- by choice or by necessity. Presumably, given that your business depends on it, you're smart about how you update, backup, etc.
I am one of those who can afford *not* to live on the bleeding edge, so I wait to upgrade. Data safety/integrity and a functional system are more important to me than the latest and greatest. Obviously developers have a different set of needs and concerns. Your concerns are valid for your business. My concerns (and melgross's) are valid for ours.
There are some on this board, though, who seem to advocate a happy-go-lucky approach for All Of Us. "Just buy it and install it! Everything will be fine! It will always have bugs anyway! Don't worry, be happy!" Presumably you are not one of them.
I pre-ordered Tiger from Amazon with the free "Super Saver Shipping", which means it will arrive at least a week after it is released. Which in turn means that I'll have at least a week to watch online forums to see what bugs come up and decide if I want to install it right away or wait for an update.
So why order it now if I might not install it for several weeks after I receive it? Because Amazon is offering a $35 rebate. If you know you're going to upgrade to Tiger eventually, you might as well take advantage of the rebate offer. Panther still retails for $129, so I doubt the price of Tiger will drop anytime in the next year (or ever).
If you're the same melgross who reads and posts on arstechnica, wait a few weeks for the early adopters to try it out and find serious bugs. Actually, whether or not you're the same person, I'd suggest two sites to check during the days/weeks after the Tiger release:
Early adopters there will probably have reports out after a few days and you can decide whether any bugs found are critical for you.
Personally, I think you're right to be cautious. I well remember the Panther Firewire bug and I daily thank Dog it did not bite me. Some fanbois here would rather forget that one and just tell you "yippee! Install!" (Oops! You mean installing your brand spanking new OS just trashed my external hard drive? Thanks, Apple!)
Then after that you get to decide whether the Tiger bugs are worse than the Panther bugs, and proceed from there
Best of luck.
It's difficult to decide to whom I should reply, so I've picked you, since you seem to know my posts elsewhere. A lot of my post is speaking in general, so don't get upset at some things I might say. You'll know what I mean.
Yes, I am somewhat cautious. I am also a beta tester, so I know the pitfalls.
I owned a commercial Photo lab here in NYC, and have owned almost every piece of imaging, editing, graphics, 3D, and publishing software ever written. I still do. My upgrades cost over $9,000 a year.
I'm quite familiar with bugs, thank you. I kept a machine at work just for the purpose of testing new software. I still do that at home. As I mentioned at the other Insider thread dealing with this issue, I have already ordered the upgrade, and will apply it as soon as it comes in. But only on that one machine.
If you are an enthusiast, and do nothing of importance on your machine, then by all means, apply it right away.
I report bugs to several sites on a regular basis, Macfixit is one of them, Macintouch is another, Apple_Xnet is another etc.
I'm upset not because Apple hasn't fixed ALL of the bugs, that would be a ridiculous thing to expect. The head of OS development at MS said that XP had 68,000 KNOWN bugs upon release, so we can be happy if 10.4 only has hundreds.
What upsets me is that introducing it now is unnecessary. No one expected it now. Everyone (even here) expected it at the Dev. conf. They have come out with new software before that depended upon an upgrade to the OS that wasn't out yet. FCP is one of those.
The conf. is two months away. A short time to wait, but a long time to enable the clearing out more bugs, and stabilizing some shaky features. Possibly that one feature that didn't quite make it could have been included.
You do realize that there are thousands of folders in X. Apple, and even the FreeBSD team doesn't know what all of them do. Some of the code is from the "60's. If they remove it, some things don't work, but they don't know why. Tracing those four or five lines could take a couple of programmers a couple of months. Multiply that by a thousand or so, and you can see why every extra day they have is a blessing.
I know you think that I'm overdoing it, but I'm not. If you knew this from the inside as I do, you would understand.
Remember even a security update causes problems in seemingly unrelated areas. Apple should worry less about secrecy and spread the testing program out to ten or even fifty times as many testers. They would catch more.
In the other thread, some idiot claimed to be a beta tester and said that he, like Apple, tested E V E R Y T H I N G (his emphasis). LOL, a beta tester tests only a small portion of the OS. Apple can't do it either. They test what they changed. If there is a problem, they TRY to fix it. But, as I mentioned above, they don't even know what all the code is.
Sorry this went on so long. I had to stop myself.
We'll see tomorrow, and then come back here, and the other thread, and jaw some more.
Why? Its a freakin' OS update. Its not like there's any earth-shattering features that will make life any better. I think some people need to get out more.
Don't be hating. We all have different interests and hobbies. You're smart enough to understand that?
It's difficult to decide to whom I should reply, so I've picked you, since you seem to know my posts elsewhere. A lot of my post is speaking in general, so don't get upset at some things I might say. You'll know what I mean.
Yes, I am somewhat cautious. I am also a beta tester, so I know the pitfalls.
<snip>
We'll see tomorrow, and then come back here, and the other thread, and jaw some more.
Mel, your comments make perfect sense to me. But I think you already knew that. You also demonstrated that you know what you're talking about, but I think you already knew I knew that.
And if you're still in/around NYC, you're up late Or early.
I'm not around my computer much on Fridays, and then the computer goes dark for Sabbath observance (mine), but I'll catch up thereafter.
For me, I will install Tiger the moment I get it day one.
I'm just not worried about it. I'll back up my data before hand, and I have multiple Macs, so if Tiger is a train wreck, I will have lost a day but not much more.
But there has been an interesting question raised: why is Apple releasing Tiger now? There have been a few stories--I don't know if they are true--about Jobs pushing the Tiger team to get it done.
But why? Hypothetical possibilities:
1. Pro Apps to be released require Tiger, and Apple needs to book the revenue.
2. Q2 revenue forecasts require Tiger sales. Maybe hardware sales are slack. Maybe it was planned all along to have Tiger a big piece of Q2 revenue with hardware pushing Q3 and beyond.
3. Apple has a surprise or two up their sleeves which require Tiger. A new offering or new hardware? Maybe something that requires H.264 or Quicktime 7?
Who knows for sure. It's interesting to think about. Or, maybe, just maybe, Apple thinks Tiger is simply done. No one is pointing out critical errors, just risks. And the reports on the builds have gotten much better.
As a veteran on MacOS updates (I survived 7.5.3!), I have to say that this one reeks of being rushed out the door to meet an artificial deadline.
Gold Master on March 31st? Please....
On the bright side, we'll get to see whatever hardware revs Apple is so anxious to deploy that further bug-killing can't wait.
On the downside, Apple's star has been rising sharply lately - and those of us who've been around awhile know that that is about the time the press likes to jump on them like sharks. They don't need a PR blunder like the Firewire drive fiasco.
Six months more testing would have made the Newton a winner instead of a Doonesbury punchline. I've always admired Jobs' "We'll ship when it's ready" attitude.
I truly hope it's ready.
Seeing as Puma came out within 6 months, Jaguar came out 11 months later and Panther came out roughly 14 months after that... 10 months development time since the WWDC build for Tiger is not rushing it at all.
Six months more testing would have made the Newton a winner instead of a Doonesbury punchline. I've always admired Jobs' "We'll ship when it's ready" attitude.
I truly hope it's ready.
I'm going to buy Tiger straight away but will install once it is safe - i'll try it out on my sisters Mac! Filevault was the kind of thing new users would use to see what it was like, if it erased data that is not good. Firewire drives also were a major problem.
Unfortunately I remember Jobs being quoted saying he'll release before Windows 64bit and fix the bugs quickly. THIS is not good enough for a company trying to gain market share and respect from the industry. Apple are a life-style company and this OS update better be bug-free. I heard .Mac was still not working properly.
What time do you guys think apple will release tiger if it is released on April 1st? Midnight, morning, afternoon
Panther was announced on the 8th October 2003 just before 9AM EST, but Apple have not been following patterns as much recently. New PowerBooks were announced on a Monday - not the usual Tuesday. The important thing to remember is that it took a week from Panther being declared Gold Master to be announced. It shipped the 24th October at 8.00PM. Free upgrades (plus $20 handling) was for all PowerMacs G5s and all other computers bought after 8th October. If they are keeping this the same as before PowerBook upgrades should be free - they come out 31st Jan, PowerMac G5s came out 23 June but shipped a lot later if I remember correctly - so that may be the reason? New PowerBook users will be pissed though - me being one of them! Mac minis should, IMO receive a free upgrade as well, otherwise people will just not buy new computers until the OS comes out.
Comments
**** THE PROOF THAT TIGER IS EVIL ****
T I G E R
84 73 71 69 82 - as ASCII values
3 1 8 6 1 - digits added
\\_/ \\_/ \\_/ \\_/ \\_/
3 1 8 6 1 - digits added
Thus, "TIGER" is 31861.
Subtract 97 from the number - this is the year Vesuvius erupted, written backwards. It gives 31764.
Add 0791 to it - this is the year IBM announced S/370, written backwards - you will get 32555.
Subtract 38, the symbol of slavery. The result will be 32517.
Add 1983, the year Microsoft introduced Windows 1.0 - the result is 34500.
Turn the number backwards, and add 1778 - the year Oliver Pollock invented '$', the symbol of
exploitation, suffering and injustice. The number is now 2321.
This, when read backwards, gives 1232. This is 666 in octal, the number of the Beast...
Evil, QED.
( http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/evilfinder/ef.shtml )
Originally posted by Louzer
Yeah, when 10.3 came out, jumping in full bore was such a great idea! Unless you were stupid enough to turn on encrypting your home folder. Or you stupidly had firewire drives connected to your mac. Why would anyone jump right in with Apple's history of having such brutal bugs on the initial release.
The original poster basically was pointing out a sound strategy. Wait for the idiots, um, I mean the brave, er, 'early adopters' to install the new OS, find all the huge problems that are bound to be in there, and wait for them to be solved. No one's saying "If it ain't perfect, I'm not touching it!". But, you know, if you're going to offer a feature like File Vault, shouldn't you at least try to make sure it doesn't corrupt and destroy ALL your data???
Agreed, with one caveat. Not all early adopters are fools who rush in (you know the rest). The smart ones test on non-mission-critical systems with many redundant backups. They provide a service to the community (as well as to themselves). Watch places like macfixit for bug reports, and then commit or wait for a point release (though those, to be sure, have their share of bugs as well, and the advice above applies to them as well).
Originally posted by melgross
You guys are thrilled, but I'm not. Bugs will have to wait for the point release. This is what I've been afraid of.
If you're the same melgross who reads and posts on arstechnica, wait a few weeks for the early adopters to try it out and find serious bugs. Actually, whether or not you're the same person, I'd suggest two sites to check during the days/weeks after the Tiger release:
1) arstechnica.com -- forums -- macintoshian achaia, and
2) www.macfixit.com.
Early adopters there will probably have reports out after a few days and you can decide whether any bugs found are critical for you.
Personally, I think you're right to be cautious. I well remember the Panther Firewire bug and I daily thank Dog it did not bite me. Some fanbois
Then after that you get to decide whether the Tiger bugs are worse than the Panther bugs, and proceed from there
Best of luck.
Originally posted by Louzer
The original poster basically was pointing out a sound strategy. Wait for the idiots, um, I mean the brave, er, 'early adopters' to install the new OS
Some of us are developers, and cannot afford to be behind on OS updates, since we have to make sure our software works with them.
And I, for one, do not appreciate being called an idiot.
Originally posted by CharlesS
Some of us are developers, and cannot afford to be behind on OS updates, since we have to make sure our software works with them.
And I, for one, do not appreciate being called an idiot.
Charles, see my 2 posts above. A lot of The Rest Of Us (who read macfixit and the like) do apprecate the services early adopters provide -- by choice or by necessity. Presumably, given that your business depends on it, you're smart about how you update, backup, etc.
I am one of those who can afford *not* to live on the bleeding edge, so I wait to upgrade. Data safety/integrity and a functional system are more important to me than the latest and greatest. Obviously developers have a different set of needs and concerns. Your concerns are valid for your business. My concerns (and melgross's) are valid for ours.
There are some on this board, though, who seem to advocate a happy-go-lucky approach for All Of Us. "Just buy it and install it! Everything will be fine! It will always have bugs anyway! Don't worry, be happy!" Presumably you are not one of them.
So why order it now if I might not install it for several weeks after I receive it? Because Amazon is offering a $35 rebate. If you know you're going to upgrade to Tiger eventually, you might as well take advantage of the rebate offer. Panther still retails for $129, so I doubt the price of Tiger will drop anytime in the next year (or ever).
Originally posted by Qo'noS
If you're the same melgross who reads and posts on arstechnica, wait a few weeks for the early adopters to try it out and find serious bugs. Actually, whether or not you're the same person, I'd suggest two sites to check during the days/weeks after the Tiger release:
1) arstechnica.com -- forums -- macintoshian achaia, and
2) www.macfixit.com.
Early adopters there will probably have reports out after a few days and you can decide whether any bugs found are critical for you.
Personally, I think you're right to be cautious. I well remember the Panther Firewire bug and I daily thank Dog it did not bite me. Some fanbois
Then after that you get to decide whether the Tiger bugs are worse than the Panther bugs, and proceed from there
Best of luck.
It's difficult to decide to whom I should reply, so I've picked you, since you seem to know my posts elsewhere. A lot of my post is speaking in general, so don't get upset at some things I might say. You'll know what I mean.
Yes, I am somewhat cautious. I am also a beta tester, so I know the pitfalls.
I owned a commercial Photo lab here in NYC, and have owned almost every piece of imaging, editing, graphics, 3D, and publishing software ever written. I still do. My upgrades cost over $9,000 a year.
I'm quite familiar with bugs, thank you. I kept a machine at work just for the purpose of testing new software. I still do that at home. As I mentioned at the other Insider thread dealing with this issue, I have already ordered the upgrade, and will apply it as soon as it comes in. But only on that one machine.
If you are an enthusiast, and do nothing of importance on your machine, then by all means, apply it right away.
I report bugs to several sites on a regular basis, Macfixit is one of them, Macintouch is another, Apple_Xnet is another etc.
I'm upset not because Apple hasn't fixed ALL of the bugs, that would be a ridiculous thing to expect. The head of OS development at MS said that XP had 68,000 KNOWN bugs upon release, so we can be happy if 10.4 only has hundreds.
What upsets me is that introducing it now is unnecessary. No one expected it now. Everyone (even here) expected it at the Dev. conf. They have come out with new software before that depended upon an upgrade to the OS that wasn't out yet. FCP is one of those.
The conf. is two months away. A short time to wait, but a long time to enable the clearing out more bugs, and stabilizing some shaky features. Possibly that one feature that didn't quite make it could have been included.
You do realize that there are thousands of folders in X. Apple, and even the FreeBSD team doesn't know what all of them do. Some of the code is from the "60's. If they remove it, some things don't work, but they don't know why. Tracing those four or five lines could take a couple of programmers a couple of months. Multiply that by a thousand or so, and you can see why every extra day they have is a blessing.
I know you think that I'm overdoing it, but I'm not. If you knew this from the inside as I do, you would understand.
Remember even a security update causes problems in seemingly unrelated areas. Apple should worry less about secrecy and spread the testing program out to ten or even fifty times as many testers. They would catch more.
In the other thread, some idiot claimed to be a beta tester and said that he, like Apple, tested E V E R Y T H I N G (his emphasis). LOL, a beta tester tests only a small portion of the OS. Apple can't do it either. They test what they changed. If there is a problem, they TRY to fix it. But, as I mentioned above, they don't even know what all the code is.
Sorry this went on so long. I had to stop myself.
We'll see tomorrow, and then come back here, and the other thread, and jaw some more.
Originally posted by Louzer
Why? Its a freakin' OS update. Its not like there's any earth-shattering features that will make life any better. I think some people need to get out more.
Don't be hating. We all have different interests and hobbies. You're smart enough to understand that?
Originally posted by melgross
It's difficult to decide to whom I should reply, so I've picked you, since you seem to know my posts elsewhere. A lot of my post is speaking in general, so don't get upset at some things I might say. You'll know what I mean.
Yes, I am somewhat cautious. I am also a beta tester, so I know the pitfalls.
<snip>
We'll see tomorrow, and then come back here, and the other thread, and jaw some more.
Mel, your comments make perfect sense to me. But I think you already knew that. You also demonstrated that you know what you're talking about, but I think you already knew I knew that.
And if you're still in/around NYC, you're up late
I'm not around my computer much on Fridays, and then the computer goes dark for Sabbath observance (mine), but I'll catch up thereafter.
Cheers.
I'm just not worried about it. I'll back up my data before hand, and I have multiple Macs, so if Tiger is a train wreck, I will have lost a day but not much more.
But there has been an interesting question raised: why is Apple releasing Tiger now? There have been a few stories--I don't know if they are true--about Jobs pushing the Tiger team to get it done.
But why? Hypothetical possibilities:
1. Pro Apps to be released require Tiger, and Apple needs to book the revenue.
2. Q2 revenue forecasts require Tiger sales. Maybe hardware sales are slack. Maybe it was planned all along to have Tiger a big piece of Q2 revenue with hardware pushing Q3 and beyond.
3. Apple has a surprise or two up their sleeves which require Tiger. A new offering or new hardware? Maybe something that requires H.264 or Quicktime 7?
Who knows for sure. It's interesting to think about. Or, maybe, just maybe, Apple thinks Tiger is simply done. No one is pointing out critical errors, just risks. And the reports on the builds have gotten much better.
Originally posted by Frank777
Sorry guys, I'm with Mel on this one.
As a veteran on MacOS updates (I survived 7.5.3!), I have to say that this one reeks of being rushed out the door to meet an artificial deadline.
Gold Master on March 31st? Please....
On the bright side, we'll get to see whatever hardware revs Apple is so anxious to deploy that further bug-killing can't wait.
On the downside, Apple's star has been rising sharply lately - and those of us who've been around awhile know that that is about the time the press likes to jump on them like sharks. They don't need a PR blunder like the Firewire drive fiasco.
Six months more testing would have made the Newton a winner instead of a Doonesbury punchline. I've always admired Jobs' "We'll ship when it's ready" attitude.
I truly hope it's ready.
Seeing as Puma came out within 6 months, Jaguar came out 11 months later and Panther came out roughly 14 months after that... 10 months development time since the WWDC build for Tiger is not rushing it at all.
Originally posted by ZO
Honestly though... I wonder how they worked out QuickTime 7... last I looked it was still in testing. Maybe it was finalized today as well.
No signs of prerelease info in the version that is installed with 8A425.
Maybe for Tiger its fine.... we're still going through a few bugs. Although overall, it seems to work perfectly
Originally posted by Frank777
Six months more testing would have made the Newton a winner instead of a Doonesbury punchline. I've always admired Jobs' "We'll ship when it's ready" attitude.
I truly hope it's ready.
I'm going to buy Tiger straight away but will install once it is safe - i'll try it out on my sisters Mac! Filevault was the kind of thing new users would use to see what it was like, if it erased data that is not good. Firewire drives also were a major problem.
Unfortunately I remember Jobs being quoted saying he'll release before Windows 64bit and fix the bugs quickly. THIS is not good enough for a company trying to gain market share and respect from the industry. Apple are a life-style company and this OS update better be bug-free. I heard .Mac was still not working properly.
Originally posted by Fitzy55
What time do you guys think apple will release tiger if it is released on April 1st? Midnight, morning, afternoon
Panther was announced on the 8th October 2003 just before 9AM EST, but Apple have not been following patterns as much recently. New PowerBooks were announced on a Monday - not the usual Tuesday. The important thing to remember is that it took a week from Panther being declared Gold Master to be announced. It shipped the 24th October at 8.00PM. Free upgrades (plus $20 handling) was for all PowerMacs G5s and all other computers bought after 8th October. If they are keeping this the same as before PowerBook upgrades should be free - they come out 31st Jan, PowerMac G5s came out 23 June but shipped a lot later if I remember correctly - so that may be the reason? New PowerBook users will be pissed though - me being one of them! Mac minis should, IMO receive a free upgrade as well, otherwise people will just not buy new computers until the OS comes out.
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/5368/
Be like tiger.
Originally posted by ikDigital
April 15th!
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/5368/
Be like tiger.
Ummh... ever heard of things like "April Fool's Day"?
durandal
Originally posted by ikDigital
April 15th!
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/5368/
Be like tiger.
I'm thinking April fool. sorry to burst your bubble but it's not genuine. All press releases are on Macs web-site first and it's not there, also WHY?