Aha! SO you have burned using the DL DVD+R disks? That's good to know as you're the first person that I've heard that has been successful in burning DL DVD+R disks.
Thanks.
CJ
Yeah I have burned on a LaCie DVD±RW DL onto Verbatim 8.5GB DVD+R using an iMac G3 600MHz. I haven't tried on my new PowerBook yet. I have only copied DVDs, I haven't made data DVDs, this was all using toast and mactheripper. I would use them more if they weren't £30 a pack (for 5)!
sorry, single layer DVDs are more cost effective. DVDs can only be stored a few years as they do not age well. As a backup they aren't very reliable after two years (or is this just CDs?)
True of both, but if you only back up once every 2 years...well, you are playing with fire...
Toast Titanium 6.0.9 does indeed support 8.5gb DL DVD+/-R burning using a Pioneer DVR-109 drive... but I agree, current DL disc prices are insanely high right now for everyday backup purposes.
$19 for TDK 50 pack 8x DVD-R vs $19 for Memorex 3 pack 2x DL DVD-R
Wait... I can see why apple may have decided to cripple the DL on the iMac, but why on earth cripple it on the PowerMac? Just so they have something cool to release later on? That's messed up...
I had no idea that the good life of a DVD or CD was only two years. That is a little disturbing.
Two years sound a little short. I still have CDs I burnt from 7 years ago, and they are still ok.
In any case, I've since consolidated my CDs into DVDs. Cut my stack of media to a fifth its original size! Will do the same again when Blueray comes to town.
Wait... I can see why apple may have decided to cripple the DL on the iMac, but why on earth cripple it on the PowerMac? Just so they have something cool to release later on? That's messed up...
Power Mac G5 Rev. A
Early - Pioneer 106 (4X)
Later - Pioneer 107 (8X, but crippled to 4X via a firmware patch)
Power Mac G5 Rev. B
Early - Pioneer 107 (8X enabled)
Mid - Pioneer 108 (16X & DL support, but crippled to 8X and no DL support via a firmware patch)
Later - Pioneer 109 (16X & DL support, but crippled to 8X and no DL support via a firmware patch)
You'll notice that both the later Rev. A and early Rev. B machines feature exactly the same drive mechanism (the Pioneer DVR-107D or a variation thereof), but the Rev. A can only manage 4X whereas the Rev. B can manage 8X). This is because the drive on the Rev. A machine was crippled via a firmware patch which Apple installed. When Apple released the Rev. B machines one of the key selling points was that this new machine supported 8X burns, which is bullshit because obviously the later Rev. A machines were also perfectly able to support this feature ? but Apple crippled them to make the Rev. B machines look better and to make us think that the G5 line was moving forward with the release of the Rev. B.
It's kind of like a printer manufacturer fitting an 8 colour cartridge to a printer, but crippling the printer via software to make sure that you can only ever use 4 of the colours. You pay for the 8 colour cartridge, but you only get to use 4 of the colours. Then that manufacturer releases a new printer and shouts from the rooftops about how they've developed an 8 colour printer and haven't we been working hard and aren't we great? Well, no you're not great, you're a bunch of conning bastards...
Apple have been at it again with the later Rev. B machines which ship with the 108 mechanism that is actually capable of 16X burns and DL support. Again the drive is crippled via an Apple only firmware patch. Hence if you buy a Power Mac G5 today you'll only get 8X burns.
Currently, it's the OS that doesn't support the 16X or DL functionality ? you can still benefit from these features if you install third party software on your Mac (Toast, PatchBurn Lacie etc.).
There are a number of theories as to why Apple does this.
The first is that Apple are drip feeding us the functionality and making it appear as though each successive revision of the Power Mac G5 line brings us more functionality, when really, this isn't true. A 'new' feature like 8X burns will doubtless encourage sales of the Rev. B for instance. Lets face it, Apple were struggling with the PM G5 so who can blame them?
The second theory is that Apple does this to maintain product parity ? they can't have half the Rev. B machines out there supporting 16X & DL and the other half only supporting 8X - and everybody asking why. All of the printed sales collateral says 8X so lets just keep it at that. The people with the early machines would moan that they didn't have the functionality etc.
I think the real reason is a mixture of both. I just think it's a bit underhand of Apple to say 'the new revision burns DVDs at twice the speed of the old revision - isn't that great?' when obviously that statement is a croc of shit. Jobs should be going on stage and saying 'it's taken us six months to catch-up with the PC industry, but we've finally implemented 16X and DL' that would be closer to the truth.
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple release a Rev. C machine shortly and they harp on about how it's got 16X and DL support. Can you imagine if Apple haven't been able to squeeze any more performance out of the G5 or implement the G5 MP, and all they come out with is 'yes with this revision we've un-crippled the drives'?
Again I wouldn't be happy if Apple say that Tiger unlocks the 'crippled' functionality of the 108 drive ? because I don't believe that you should have to purchase Tiger in order to fully enjoy the functionality of the hardware you already own. Let's face it, who are Apple kidding, it's just another carrot to get you to pony-up again for Tiger.
Perhaps the 10.3.9 update that we are all waiting for will also un-cripple the drives? That would be the fair thing to do...
Even still, 16X and DL support is nothing to shout about... PCs have had it for a while now and Apple are simply playing catch-up. It won't be log before the Pioneer 110 starts to surface...
Again I wouldn't be happy if Apple say that Tiger unlocks the 'crippled' functionality of the 108 drive ? because I don't believe that you should have to purchase Tiger in order to fully enjoy the functionality of the hardware you already own. Let's face it, who are Apple kidding, it's just another carrot to get you to pony-up again for Tiger.
Perhaps the 10.3.9 update that we are all waiting for will also un-cripple the drives? That would be the fair thing to do...
Even still, 16X and DL support is nothing to shout about... PCs have had it for a while now and Apple are simply playing catch-up. It won't be log before the Pioneer 110 starts to surface...
You seem quite angry! Can someone not hack the firmware? Maybe Apple had software bugs and wanted to catch up? BUT surely they'd make more money if when they released the PowerMacs they were 16x DL? It would attract customers and allow potential switchers. It would put me off a PowerMac if it didn't have DL. Didn't Apple also block some 5GB iPod mini drives?
You seem quite angry! Can someone not hack the firmware? Maybe Apple had software bugs and wanted to catch up? BUT surely they'd make more money if when they released the PowerMacs they were 16x DL? It would attract customers and allow potential switchers. It would put me off a PowerMac if it didn't have DL. Didn't Apple also block some 5GB iPod mini drives?
If I'm angry, it's only because I don't think Apple are doing themselves any favours.
I'd prefer to see regular 'mini-bumps' to the Power Mac G5 line rather than the one single speed-bump that we've seen so far. That way the Power Mac G5 line could grow organically, and take advantage of all the little benefits that present themselves along the way. We've already had four different SuperDrive mechanisms in the G5 line-up (I'm only counting the Pioneer mechs here). There hasn't been a single point in time where the G5s have taken full advantage of the 'current' drives on offer. By the time Apple implements full support the ship has already sailed and Apple are back playing catch-up again.
In saying that, bear two things in mind:
1. The PM G5 family has been pretty stagnant of late, nobody's buying them so I think Apple are saving up all the plus points they can.
2. I don't know what I'm talking about ? I've never run an international company and I'm just 'venting'. There are probably several good reasons why Apple have made the decisions that they have, and we'll never know about them.
With regards to the firmware, yes, you can hack the firmware (I do). You then you have to resort to third party hacks like PatchBurn, and they don't always give you the full functionality of the drive ? they usually only allow you to use the drive. For instance, the 108 mechanism isn't recognised by OS X, so you can't do anything with it ? but PatchBurn will at least allow you to use the drive, albeit without 16X or DL support.
I just hope that if there is indeed a treat for existing PM G5 users, Apple can pull something better than 'de-crippling existing hardware' out of the hat.
I did hear rumours about Apple crippling the iPod mini ? but I never saw any conclusive proof.
If I'm angry, it's only because I don't think Apple are doing themselves any favours.
Yeah, I can't understand it either. It seems stupid to me. Unless there are bugs which Tiger solves? And they are advertising them as DVD-RW only so the consumers don't know.
I heard a story that IBM used to do this with mainframes. These were mostly leased machines that only IBM was allowed to service.
They'd lease the customer a single processor box, but actually ship it with 2 CPUs, but with one disabled.
Then, when/if the customer wanted to upgrade to 2 CPUs, IBM would send an engineer who would kick everyone else out of the room, open the cover, flip a switch, close the cover, and charge the customer for installing the second CPU.
I heard a story that IBM used to do this with mainframes. These were mostly leased machines that only IBM was allowed to service.
They'd lease the customer a single processor box, but actually ship it with 2 CPUs, but with one disabled.
Then, when/if the customer wanted to upgrade to 2 CPUs, IBM would send an engineer who would kick everyone else out of the room, open the cover, flip a switch, close the cover, and charge the customer for installing the second CPU.
I'm pretty sure IBM still does this. As does ADC, the tape library people. They provide a client with a BIG tape library (think larger than rack sized) and then sell the tape slots in 100 unit bundles. Need to expand your backup capacity? No need to get new library hardware, just pay to activate the next bank of 100 tape slots oh and once you are 70% in use they will offer to send you out another box at no additional charge. (since they can be linked)
I had no idea that the good life of a DVD or CD was only two years. That is a little disturbing.
Don't worry, only the very earliest CDs were this short lived. Early CDs were found to start breaking down after only a few years.
However this was quickly remmedied with changes in their composition and manufacturing process. Even discs from the early nineties can be expected to last over a decade.
While disc life certainly isn't infinite, it is no longer a problem unless you plan on keeping your data for a few decades...
* Disclaimer: Defective discs can still be problematic
I'm pretty sure IBM still does this. As does ADC, the tape library people. They provide a client with a BIG tape library (think larger than rack sized) and then sell the tape slots in 100 unit bundles. Need to expand your backup capacity? No need to get new library hardware, just pay to activate the next bank of 100 tape slots oh and once you are 70% in use they will offer to send you out another box at no additional charge. (since they can be linked)
Dave
Lots of people do this. I think HP does it with their high-end Itaniums too.
Back to the Superdrive issue... I think people are upset because they are used to the enthusiast PC market, where everything has the latest and greatest. Apple has to also think about corporate buyers and stable specifications. They are selling a "Power Macintosh G5" not an agglomeration of parts; if a "Power Macintosh G5" has x, y, and z, they ship it with x, y, and z, even if faster/better versions of x, y, and z are out.
All high-end computer vendors do this, partly because it takes time to integrate and test, and they don't want surprises when servicing time comes. Dell does this too... their Dimension line is targeted towards enthusiasts/consumers, and will have the latest and greatest, while their corporate Optiplex line has much more stable specifications (and is marketed as such). Arguably, Apple should have an equivalent to the Dimension line, but for marketing reasons (e.g. consumer stuff shouldn't be faster than their pro stuff) and because Macs are much less interchangeable agglomerations of generic parts (even if they do use lots of standard PC parts), and more of a integrated product.
Not to sound like ann Apple apologist, because I think Apple is kinda in a hard spot, since they still have to compete with the PC mass market while trying to remain unique, but having worked in large IT environments, and knowing the marketing practices, which are different than the consumer/enthusiast PC mass market, I empathize a little bit with Apple why they do this.
Comments
Originally posted by cj3209
Maccrazy:
Aha! SO you have burned using the DL DVD+R disks? That's good to know as you're the first person that I've heard that has been successful in burning DL DVD+R disks.
Thanks.
CJ
Yeah I have burned on a LaCie DVD±RW DL onto Verbatim 8.5GB DVD+R using an iMac G3 600MHz. I haven't tried on my new PowerBook yet. I have only copied DVDs, I haven't made data DVDs, this was all using toast and mactheripper. I would use them more if they weren't £30 a pack (for 5)!
Originally posted by MacCrazy
sorry, single layer DVDs are more cost effective. DVDs can only be stored a few years as they do not age well. As a backup they aren't very reliable after two years (or is this just CDs?)
True of both, but if you only back up once every 2 years...well, you are playing with fire...
Originally posted by a_greer
True of both, but if you only back up once every 2 years...well, you are playing with fire...
no my point was that 12x the cost is not worth it if they don't last long, if you back up every day/week that's a lot of money wasted IMO.
$19 for TDK 50 pack 8x DVD-R vs $19 for Memorex 3 pack 2x DL DVD-R
That's roughly $0.08/gb vs $0.75/gb respectively.
Originally posted by aplnub
I had no idea that the good life of a DVD or CD was only two years. That is a little disturbing.
It is suppose to be many many years, but cheap media sometimes does not last as long.
Originally posted by aplnub
I had no idea that the good life of a DVD or CD was only two years. That is a little disturbing.
Two years sound a little short. I still have CDs I burnt from 7 years ago, and they are still ok.
In any case, I've since consolidated my CDs into DVDs. Cut my stack of media to a fifth its original size! Will do the same again when Blueray comes to town.
Originally posted by Algol
Wait... I can see why apple may have decided to cripple the DL on the iMac, but why on earth cripple it on the PowerMac? Just so they have something cool to release later on? That's messed up...
Power Mac G5 Rev. A
Early - Pioneer 106 (4X)
Later - Pioneer 107 (8X, but crippled to 4X via a firmware patch)
Power Mac G5 Rev. B
Early - Pioneer 107 (8X enabled)
Mid - Pioneer 108 (16X & DL support, but crippled to 8X and no DL support via a firmware patch)
Later - Pioneer 109 (16X & DL support, but crippled to 8X and no DL support via a firmware patch)
You'll notice that both the later Rev. A and early Rev. B machines feature exactly the same drive mechanism (the Pioneer DVR-107D or a variation thereof), but the Rev. A can only manage 4X whereas the Rev. B can manage 8X). This is because the drive on the Rev. A machine was crippled via a firmware patch which Apple installed. When Apple released the Rev. B machines one of the key selling points was that this new machine supported 8X burns, which is bullshit because obviously the later Rev. A machines were also perfectly able to support this feature ? but Apple crippled them to make the Rev. B machines look better and to make us think that the G5 line was moving forward with the release of the Rev. B.
It's kind of like a printer manufacturer fitting an 8 colour cartridge to a printer, but crippling the printer via software to make sure that you can only ever use 4 of the colours. You pay for the 8 colour cartridge, but you only get to use 4 of the colours. Then that manufacturer releases a new printer and shouts from the rooftops about how they've developed an 8 colour printer and haven't we been working hard and aren't we great? Well, no you're not great, you're a bunch of conning bastards...
Apple have been at it again with the later Rev. B machines which ship with the 108 mechanism that is actually capable of 16X burns and DL support. Again the drive is crippled via an Apple only firmware patch. Hence if you buy a Power Mac G5 today you'll only get 8X burns.
Currently, it's the OS that doesn't support the 16X or DL functionality ? you can still benefit from these features if you install third party software on your Mac (Toast, PatchBurn Lacie etc.).
There are a number of theories as to why Apple does this.
The first is that Apple are drip feeding us the functionality and making it appear as though each successive revision of the Power Mac G5 line brings us more functionality, when really, this isn't true. A 'new' feature like 8X burns will doubtless encourage sales of the Rev. B for instance. Lets face it, Apple were struggling with the PM G5 so who can blame them?
The second theory is that Apple does this to maintain product parity ? they can't have half the Rev. B machines out there supporting 16X & DL and the other half only supporting 8X - and everybody asking why. All of the printed sales collateral says 8X so lets just keep it at that. The people with the early machines would moan that they didn't have the functionality etc.
I think the real reason is a mixture of both. I just think it's a bit underhand of Apple to say 'the new revision burns DVDs at twice the speed of the old revision - isn't that great?' when obviously that statement is a croc of shit. Jobs should be going on stage and saying 'it's taken us six months to catch-up with the PC industry, but we've finally implemented 16X and DL' that would be closer to the truth.
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple release a Rev. C machine shortly and they harp on about how it's got 16X and DL support. Can you imagine if Apple haven't been able to squeeze any more performance out of the G5 or implement the G5 MP, and all they come out with is 'yes with this revision we've un-crippled the drives'?
Again I wouldn't be happy if Apple say that Tiger unlocks the 'crippled' functionality of the 108 drive ? because I don't believe that you should have to purchase Tiger in order to fully enjoy the functionality of the hardware you already own. Let's face it, who are Apple kidding, it's just another carrot to get you to pony-up again for Tiger.
Perhaps the 10.3.9 update that we are all waiting for will also un-cripple the drives? That would be the fair thing to do...
Even still, 16X and DL support is nothing to shout about... PCs have had it for a while now and Apple are simply playing catch-up. It won't be log before the Pioneer 110 starts to surface...
Originally posted by Messiah
Again I wouldn't be happy if Apple say that Tiger unlocks the 'crippled' functionality of the 108 drive ? because I don't believe that you should have to purchase Tiger in order to fully enjoy the functionality of the hardware you already own. Let's face it, who are Apple kidding, it's just another carrot to get you to pony-up again for Tiger.
Perhaps the 10.3.9 update that we are all waiting for will also un-cripple the drives? That would be the fair thing to do...
Even still, 16X and DL support is nothing to shout about... PCs have had it for a while now and Apple are simply playing catch-up. It won't be log before the Pioneer 110 starts to surface...
You seem quite angry! Can someone not hack the firmware? Maybe Apple had software bugs and wanted to catch up? BUT surely they'd make more money if when they released the PowerMacs they were 16x DL? It would attract customers and allow potential switchers. It would put me off a PowerMac if it didn't have DL. Didn't Apple also block some 5GB iPod mini drives?
Originally posted by MacCrazy
You seem quite angry! Can someone not hack the firmware? Maybe Apple had software bugs and wanted to catch up? BUT surely they'd make more money if when they released the PowerMacs they were 16x DL? It would attract customers and allow potential switchers. It would put me off a PowerMac if it didn't have DL. Didn't Apple also block some 5GB iPod mini drives?
If I'm angry, it's only because I don't think Apple are doing themselves any favours.
I'd prefer to see regular 'mini-bumps' to the Power Mac G5 line rather than the one single speed-bump that we've seen so far. That way the Power Mac G5 line could grow organically, and take advantage of all the little benefits that present themselves along the way. We've already had four different SuperDrive mechanisms in the G5 line-up (I'm only counting the Pioneer mechs here). There hasn't been a single point in time where the G5s have taken full advantage of the 'current' drives on offer. By the time Apple implements full support the ship has already sailed and Apple are back playing catch-up again.
In saying that, bear two things in mind:
1. The PM G5 family has been pretty stagnant of late, nobody's buying them so I think Apple are saving up all the plus points they can.
2. I don't know what I'm talking about ? I've never run an international company and I'm just 'venting'. There are probably several good reasons why Apple have made the decisions that they have, and we'll never know about them.
With regards to the firmware, yes, you can hack the firmware (I do). You then you have to resort to third party hacks like PatchBurn, and they don't always give you the full functionality of the drive ? they usually only allow you to use the drive. For instance, the 108 mechanism isn't recognised by OS X, so you can't do anything with it ? but PatchBurn will at least allow you to use the drive, albeit without 16X or DL support.
I just hope that if there is indeed a treat for existing PM G5 users, Apple can pull something better than 'de-crippling existing hardware' out of the hat.
I did hear rumours about Apple crippling the iPod mini ? but I never saw any conclusive proof.
Originally posted by Messiah
If I'm angry, it's only because I don't think Apple are doing themselves any favours.
Yeah, I can't understand it either. It seems stupid to me. Unless there are bugs which Tiger solves? And they are advertising them as DVD-RW only so the consumers don't know.
Originally posted by cj3209
Has ANYONE gotten a dual-layer DVD-R to work?
I didn't think so.
Yes, very easily as it happens, I posted a complete "How-To" on here in Feb. Been successfully burning DL discs (data and video) since.
They'd lease the customer a single processor box, but actually ship it with 2 CPUs, but with one disabled.
Then, when/if the customer wanted to upgrade to 2 CPUs, IBM would send an engineer who would kick everyone else out of the room, open the cover, flip a switch, close the cover, and charge the customer for installing the second CPU.
Originally posted by melevittfl
I heard a story that IBM used to do this with mainframes. These were mostly leased machines that only IBM was allowed to service.
They'd lease the customer a single processor box, but actually ship it with 2 CPUs, but with one disabled.
Then, when/if the customer wanted to upgrade to 2 CPUs, IBM would send an engineer who would kick everyone else out of the room, open the cover, flip a switch, close the cover, and charge the customer for installing the second CPU.
I'm pretty sure IBM still does this. As does ADC, the tape library people. They provide a client with a BIG tape library (think larger than rack sized) and then sell the tape slots in 100 unit bundles. Need to expand your backup capacity? No need to get new library hardware, just pay to activate the next bank of 100 tape slots oh and once you are 70% in use they will offer to send you out another box at no additional charge. (since they can be linked)
Dave
Originally posted by aplnub
I had no idea that the good life of a DVD or CD was only two years. That is a little disturbing.
Don't worry, only the very earliest CDs were this short lived. Early CDs were found to start breaking down after only a few years.
However this was quickly remmedied with changes in their composition and manufacturing process. Even discs from the early nineties can be expected to last over a decade.
While disc life certainly isn't infinite, it is no longer a problem unless you plan on keeping your data for a few decades...
* Disclaimer: Defective discs can still be problematic
Originally posted by Messiah
Power Mac G5 Rev. A
Early - Pioneer 106 (4X)
Later - Pioneer 107 (8X, but crippled to 4X via a firmware patch)
Power Mac G5 Rev. B
Early - Pioneer 107 (8X enabled)
Mid - Pioneer 108 (16X & DL support, but crippled to 8X and no DL support via a firmware patch)
Later - Pioneer 109 (16X & DL support, but crippled to 8X and no DL support via a firmware patch)
A large number of early Rev. B PM G5s, including mine, came with the HL-DT-ST DVD GWA-4082B drives. So those owners are stuck at 8X.
Originally posted by OldCodger73
A large number of early Rev. B PM G5s, including mine, came with the HL-DT-ST DVD GWA-4082B drives. So those owners are stuck at 8X.
Yep!
I've also seen Sony mechanisms in various iterations of the PM G5 line.
Originally posted by DaveGee
I'm pretty sure IBM still does this. As does ADC, the tape library people. They provide a client with a BIG tape library (think larger than rack sized) and then sell the tape slots in 100 unit bundles. Need to expand your backup capacity? No need to get new library hardware, just pay to activate the next bank of 100 tape slots oh and once you are 70% in use they will offer to send you out another box at no additional charge. (since they can be linked)
Dave
Lots of people do this. I think HP does it with their high-end Itaniums too.
Back to the Superdrive issue... I think people are upset because they are used to the enthusiast PC market, where everything has the latest and greatest. Apple has to also think about corporate buyers and stable specifications. They are selling a "Power Macintosh G5" not an agglomeration of parts; if a "Power Macintosh G5" has x, y, and z, they ship it with x, y, and z, even if faster/better versions of x, y, and z are out.
All high-end computer vendors do this, partly because it takes time to integrate and test, and they don't want surprises when servicing time comes. Dell does this too... their Dimension line is targeted towards enthusiasts/consumers, and will have the latest and greatest, while their corporate Optiplex line has much more stable specifications (and is marketed as such). Arguably, Apple should have an equivalent to the Dimension line, but for marketing reasons (e.g. consumer stuff shouldn't be faster than their pro stuff) and because Macs are much less interchangeable agglomerations of generic parts (even if they do use lots of standard PC parts), and more of a integrated product.
Not to sound like ann Apple apologist, because I think Apple is kinda in a hard spot, since they still have to compete with the PC mass market while trying to remain unique, but having worked in large IT environments, and knowing the marketing practices, which are different than the consumer/enthusiast PC mass market, I empathize a little bit with Apple why they do this.
MATSHITA DVD-R UJ-825:
Manufacturer
Model
Revision
Serial Number
Drive Type
Disc Burning
Removable Media
Detachable Drive
Protocol
Unit Number
Socket Type
I guess I don't have a dual layer easter egg in my iMac, do I?