... Yes Intel dominates the lowend and midrange but Apple would be a fool to ditch IBM when there is so much low hanging fruit to pick from the loins of the POWER5.
IBM has apparently abandoned the low-end Wintel world (selling it to Lenovo) so it might be that Apple is IBM's primary entry into the "small-iron" market. IBM probably makes more profit on Apple selling a G5 than they did selling a ValuePoint PC.
Yes, but since Intel has much more marketshare and experience, they might have better luck scaling up the same chip and getting better yields.
Marketshare has nothing to do with production. And, like I said before, Intel wouldn't be changing (i.e. scaling) the chip, its not theirs to change, so its not like they'd be able to go in, find some ways to make the chip better and easier to produce, and then produce better versions. And even if they could (i.e. were allowed), why would they? To help a competitor? What sense does that make? Where in the grand scheme of all this "Intel making PowerPC chips for Apple" does it actually benefit Intel? They'd get much more benefit in switching Apple over. In fact, if you think about it, all Intel would have to do is to come across the same issues IBM has, say they "can't produce it in mass quantities, but, hey, we've got a box full of Xeon's over here ready to go".
Just drop the whole "Intel producing IBM's chips" thing. Its completely illogical.
Don't forget also that Intel is the larger GPU maker.
Remember how the macmini motherboard is ? A real mess. Intel could help by making 1 chip for GPU, FW800, 802.11, USB, etc... This would save space, heat, and... cost of course !
What does intel being a GPU maker have to do with any of this? So we all can have Intel Extreme 2 Video in our computers! Running shared memory! Woohoo!
And larger than whom? Larger then IBM? Yeah, but IBM doesn't make graphics cards, as neither does Apple. They wisely OEM that kind of thing.
BTW, the Mac mini motherboard isn't a real mess. Not sure where that came from. It doesn't run hot (helps that its a G4 in there), and what are you going to do with all that space saving? (Oh, and FW800 ain't appearing on the mini or any consumer mac anytime soon, its a 'pro' feature to apple).
If IBM doesn't get it's ass in gear and deliver by end of this year,
I want the Kamino-ans to make the next Apple CPUs
They whipped up a massive clone army (and just wondering... where did all the ships and hardware come from ???) in like what 10+ years?
btw
i wonder why the Emperor after episode 3, before episode 4, essentially stopped using clone army? it all evolved into stormtroopers, disposable tie fighters, massive fleet of star destroyers.... which is cool, but why they dropped the clones? maybe the rebels took out clone production facilities...? \
Hey, thanks for ruining the episodes 2 and 3 for me! Idiot star wars freaks, can't leave stuff to themselves. Always assume everyone else are freakazoids who've stood in line and seen the movies 4 times by now.
You're probably one of those who went around telling everyone Vader was Luke's second uncle twice removed after seeing Empire as well.
Just don't turn this into one of those "Can you believe Han doesn't shoot first anymore!" whine-fests!
Intel sells more "GPU" or chipsets than ATI and NVidia. Sorry but that's true. I don't talk about high end GPU like an ATI 9800 mobility. Think iBook, mac mini.
In "mess" I mean a lot of components. If you can reduce all these differents chips to 1, you'll save a lot of efforts and MONEY.
It's all about integration. Apple laptops are far behind in this field. Airport card ? FW chip ? USB chip ? etc...
It's been a frustrating time for Apple waiting for IBM to catch up on the technology their scientists are developing. I don't see a G5 in a PB until IBM moves to the 65 nm process, meaning that Apple needs Freescale to deliver on their dual core G4s rather soon. The Apple/IBM roadmap, however, is rather strong and I don't see Apple moving to Intel and missing out on what IBM can offer in the future. We'll just have to wait for WWDC for an indication as to where Apple is going in the next 12 months. I'm hoping for some Freescale performance boosts in the consumer line and an IBM bump in the PM line.
Intel sells more "GPU" or chipsets than ATI and NVidia. Sorry but that's true. I don't talk about high end GPU like an ATI 9800 mobility. Think iBook, mac mini.
In "mess" I mean a lot of components. If you can reduce all these differents chips to 1, you'll save a lot of efforts and MONEY.
It's all about integration. Apple laptops are far behind in this field. Airport card ? FW chip ? USB chip ? etc...
Less heat/space/cost. That how industry works.
Sure, that makes sense for a laptop, but you said the mini. And having 5 chips instead of one doesn't make it 'messy', it just has more chips. I read 'messy' to mean there's three daughtercards, wires all over the place trying to hook pieces together, etc.
Oh, and the Mac crowd is already up-in-arms over the crappy video cards in all of Apple's "low-cost"/consumer computers (nvidia 5200???). I can't imagine the uproar if Apple switched to an integrated, shared memory, non-upgradeable video system like what Intel has now.
Hey, thanks for ruining the episodes 2 and 3 for me! Idiot star wars freaks, can't leave stuff to themselves. Always assume everyone else are freakazoids who've stood in line and seen the movies 4 times by now.
You're probably one of those who went around telling everyone Vader was Luke's second uncle twice removed after seeing Empire as well.
Just don't turn this into one of those "Can you believe Han doesn't shoot first anymore!" whine-fests!
i dont understand how what i said ruined episode 2 and 3 for you in any way. if so, your the freak. if you havent watched episode 2 and 3 by now, it means that by the time you do, you'll forget whatever you read here anyway.
I doubt we'll see Apple's use of Intel processors in Macs. It's just too much to ask developers to do. After finally "completing" the transition to OS X, do you think Apple is going to ask developers to re-engineer and re-write code for applications written for OS X and the PowerPC?
I think we may see a lite version of OS X for some sort of mobile device that will run on Intel processors. You won't find them in a Mac anytime soon.
Sure, that makes sense for a laptop, but you said the mini. And having 5 chips instead of one doesn't make it 'messy', it just has more chips. I read 'messy' to mean there's three daughtercards, wires all over the place trying to hook pieces together, etc.
Oh, and the Mac crowd is already up-in-arms over the crappy video cards in all of Apple's "low-cost"/consumer computers (nvidia 5200???). I can't imagine the uproar if Apple switched to an integrated, shared memory, non-upgradeable video system like what Intel has now.
Having 5 chips instead of one makes it more expensive to produce, as well as taking up room on an already small board that could be used for something else.
But it's not that simple either. Intel doesn't produce those chips.
You all may not remember, but a few years ago Intel was touting that it's new mobile cpu had wi/fi built-in.
NONE, I repeat, NONE, of Intels customers wanted the feature turned on.
Intel dropped it.
We are now hearing that the Mini is having disappointing sales after a good beginning. Apple does have to do something there. Fixing the board so as to eliminate the "mess" left over from the unused feature (the iPod connector, remember), and add another memory slot is good. Selling it with 512MB RAM would be good also. Putting Extreme capable chips in all machines would be good. Especially those with weak cpu's.
The other thing that Apple should wake up to is wi/fi and Bluetooth.
As someone who was a partner in an audio manufacturing firm, and who has designed numerous pieces of electronics, I can tell you that most of the expense of adding those two comes from the packaging of the chips themselves, and the cost of the connectors built into the mobo.
If Apple just added the chips directly to the mobo, along with their support circuits, it would cost far less than it does now, and would take up far less real estate in the machine. Remember that cell phones and PDA's, with both wi/fi and Bluetooth built-in, some of which are no bigger than Apple's wi/fi module itself, are on the market.
Why they don't do this is beyond me. I've spoken to their engineers about it. It appears to be a political decision rather than an engineering one.
I doubt we'll see Apple's use of Intel processors in Macs. It's just too much to ask developers to do. After finally "completing" the transition to OS X, do you think Apple is going to ask developers to re-engineer and re-write code for applications written for OS X and the PowerPC?
I think we may see a lite version of OS X for some sort of mobile device that will run on Intel processors. You won't find them in a Mac anytime soon.
Say something else, this has been repeated ad infinitum
^^^Forgive the continuation of OTness, but I thought the clone army of Episode III _became_ the stormtroopers of Episode IV. For example, in Episode IV Leia asks Luke "Aren't you a little short to be a stormtrooper?". However I am not a Star Wars expert, I have only seen Episode III once, and I don't mean to turn this into a Star Wars thread.
Never explicitly stated but it is believed that the elite troops in 4-6 are still clones, while the average Stormtrooper is just a regular soldier pressed into duty. Also, Luke isn't up to military requirements for duty.
Never explicitly stated but it is believed that the elite troops in 4-6 are still clones, while the average Stormtrooper is just a regular soldier pressed into duty. Also, Luke isn't up to military requirements for duty.
shh... not so loud. you're ruining the whole star wars series for Louzer
bwah ha ha ha ha
but yeah, wow... never realised that before... re: clones alongside 'regular blokes' who signed up with the empire because of the "benefits, and you get to push people around (except when they mindtrick you )"
We seem to have veered off here in some odd, inexplicable way.
*raises hand* hmm i agree, i also think i'm partly to blame \
edit: but also i think it has to do with the minor star wars reference in the original "apple to use intel" article right at the top re: apple users being jedi or something.
edit2: i blame the media saturation with 'starwars'
i think IBM just needs to kick it into gear in the next few months. i think switching to Intel would be a poor move, since it'd be completely different technology, and us apple geeks would probably revolt. also, integrated chipsets are a terrible idea. brings a whole new meaning to non-user-upgradable. if anything, we need to be able to change out GPU's and the like. integrated graphics only allows for frustration and slower processing.
As far as processors go. Apple needs to find a way of optimizing every link in the chain before pondering changes like CPU.
People are actually receiving 2.7 duallies so IBM is producing them in shipping capable numbers. I'm not so fixated on 3GHz. I think it's rather childish to get all worked up over a 300Mhz delta.
I'm looking for that next Macintosh architecture that surprises. Right now it's going to take a bit more than PCI-Express to wow me but I will be happy to move forward nontheless
The other thing that Apple should wake up to is wi/fi and Bluetooth.
Huh??
Apple was one of the first PC makers to support wifi and bluetooth. All their laptops now come with wifi standard (not true on the PC side) and most of their computers come with bluetooth standard or it can be added BTO. How many PC's have bluetooth included?
Comments
Originally posted by hmurchison
... Yes Intel dominates the lowend and midrange but Apple would be a fool to ditch IBM when there is so much low hanging fruit to pick from the loins of the POWER5.
IBM has apparently abandoned the low-end Wintel world (selling it to Lenovo) so it might be that Apple is IBM's primary entry into the "small-iron" market. IBM probably makes more profit on Apple selling a G5 than they did selling a ValuePoint PC.
Originally posted by Placebo
Yes, but since Intel has much more marketshare and experience, they might have better luck scaling up the same chip and getting better yields.
Marketshare has nothing to do with production. And, like I said before, Intel wouldn't be changing (i.e. scaling) the chip, its not theirs to change, so its not like they'd be able to go in, find some ways to make the chip better and easier to produce, and then produce better versions. And even if they could (i.e. were allowed), why would they? To help a competitor? What sense does that make? Where in the grand scheme of all this "Intel making PowerPC chips for Apple" does it actually benefit Intel? They'd get much more benefit in switching Apple over. In fact, if you think about it, all Intel would have to do is to come across the same issues IBM has, say they "can't produce it in mass quantities, but, hey, we've got a box full of Xeon's over here ready to go".
Just drop the whole "Intel producing IBM's chips" thing. Its completely illogical.
Originally posted by NicononoUK
Don't forget also that Intel is the larger GPU maker.
Remember how the macmini motherboard is ? A real mess. Intel could help by making 1 chip for GPU, FW800, 802.11, USB, etc... This would save space, heat, and... cost of course !
What does intel being a GPU maker have to do with any of this? So we all can have Intel Extreme 2 Video in our computers! Running shared memory! Woohoo!
And larger than whom? Larger then IBM? Yeah, but IBM doesn't make graphics cards, as neither does Apple. They wisely OEM that kind of thing.
BTW, the Mac mini motherboard isn't a real mess. Not sure where that came from. It doesn't run hot (helps that its a G4 in there), and what are you going to do with all that space saving? (Oh, and FW800 ain't appearing on the mini or any consumer mac anytime soon, its a 'pro' feature to apple).
Originally posted by sunilraman
If IBM doesn't get it's ass in gear and deliver by end of this year,
I want the Kamino-ans to make the next Apple CPUs
They whipped up a massive clone army (and just wondering... where did all the ships and hardware come from ???) in like what 10+ years?
btw
i wonder why the Emperor after episode 3, before episode 4, essentially stopped using clone army? it all evolved into stormtroopers, disposable tie fighters, massive fleet of star destroyers.... which is cool, but why they dropped the clones? maybe the rebels took out clone production facilities...?
Hey, thanks for ruining the episodes 2 and 3 for me! Idiot star wars freaks, can't leave stuff to themselves. Always assume everyone else are freakazoids who've stood in line and seen the movies 4 times by now.
You're probably one of those who went around telling everyone Vader was Luke's second uncle twice removed after seeing Empire as well.
Just don't turn this into one of those "Can you believe Han doesn't shoot first anymore!" whine-fests!
In "mess" I mean a lot of components. If you can reduce all these differents chips to 1, you'll save a lot of efforts and MONEY.
It's all about integration. Apple laptops are far behind in this field. Airport card ? FW chip ? USB chip ? etc...
Less heat/space/cost. That how industry works.
Originally posted by NicononoUK
Intel sells more "GPU" or chipsets than ATI and NVidia. Sorry but that's true. I don't talk about high end GPU like an ATI 9800 mobility. Think iBook, mac mini.
In "mess" I mean a lot of components. If you can reduce all these differents chips to 1, you'll save a lot of efforts and MONEY.
It's all about integration. Apple laptops are far behind in this field. Airport card ? FW chip ? USB chip ? etc...
Less heat/space/cost. That how industry works.
Sure, that makes sense for a laptop, but you said the mini. And having 5 chips instead of one doesn't make it 'messy', it just has more chips. I read 'messy' to mean there's three daughtercards, wires all over the place trying to hook pieces together, etc.
Oh, and the Mac crowd is already up-in-arms over the crappy video cards in all of Apple's "low-cost"/consumer computers (nvidia 5200???). I can't imagine the uproar if Apple switched to an integrated, shared memory, non-upgradeable video system like what Intel has now.
Originally posted by Louzer
Hey, thanks for ruining the episodes 2 and 3 for me! Idiot star wars freaks, can't leave stuff to themselves. Always assume everyone else are freakazoids who've stood in line and seen the movies 4 times by now.
You're probably one of those who went around telling everyone Vader was Luke's second uncle twice removed after seeing Empire as well.
Just don't turn this into one of those "Can you believe Han doesn't shoot first anymore!" whine-fests!
i dont understand how what i said ruined episode 2 and 3 for you in any way. if so, your the freak. if you havent watched episode 2 and 3 by now, it means that by the time you do, you'll forget whatever you read here anyway.
please.
I think we may see a lite version of OS X for some sort of mobile device that will run on Intel processors. You won't find them in a Mac anytime soon.
Originally posted by Louzer
Sure, that makes sense for a laptop, but you said the mini. And having 5 chips instead of one doesn't make it 'messy', it just has more chips. I read 'messy' to mean there's three daughtercards, wires all over the place trying to hook pieces together, etc.
Oh, and the Mac crowd is already up-in-arms over the crappy video cards in all of Apple's "low-cost"/consumer computers (nvidia 5200???). I can't imagine the uproar if Apple switched to an integrated, shared memory, non-upgradeable video system like what Intel has now.
Having 5 chips instead of one makes it more expensive to produce, as well as taking up room on an already small board that could be used for something else.
But it's not that simple either. Intel doesn't produce those chips.
You all may not remember, but a few years ago Intel was touting that it's new mobile cpu had wi/fi built-in.
NONE, I repeat, NONE, of Intels customers wanted the feature turned on.
Intel dropped it.
We are now hearing that the Mini is having disappointing sales after a good beginning. Apple does have to do something there. Fixing the board so as to eliminate the "mess" left over from the unused feature (the iPod connector, remember), and add another memory slot is good. Selling it with 512MB RAM would be good also. Putting Extreme capable chips in all machines would be good. Especially those with weak cpu's.
The other thing that Apple should wake up to is wi/fi and Bluetooth.
As someone who was a partner in an audio manufacturing firm, and who has designed numerous pieces of electronics, I can tell you that most of the expense of adding those two comes from the packaging of the chips themselves, and the cost of the connectors built into the mobo.
If Apple just added the chips directly to the mobo, along with their support circuits, it would cost far less than it does now, and would take up far less real estate in the machine. Remember that cell phones and PDA's, with both wi/fi and Bluetooth built-in, some of which are no bigger than Apple's wi/fi module itself, are on the market.
Why they don't do this is beyond me. I've spoken to their engineers about it. It appears to be a political decision rather than an engineering one.
Originally posted by amac4me
I doubt we'll see Apple's use of Intel processors in Macs. It's just too much to ask developers to do. After finally "completing" the transition to OS X, do you think Apple is going to ask developers to re-engineer and re-write code for applications written for OS X and the PowerPC?
I think we may see a lite version of OS X for some sort of mobile device that will run on Intel processors. You won't find them in a Mac anytime soon.
Say something else, this has been repeated ad infinitum
Originally posted by DavidH
^^^Forgive the continuation of OTness, but I thought the clone army of Episode III _became_ the stormtroopers of Episode IV. For example, in Episode IV Leia asks Luke "Aren't you a little short to be a stormtrooper?". However I am not a Star Wars expert, I have only seen Episode III once, and I don't mean to turn this into a Star Wars thread.
Never explicitly stated but it is believed that the elite troops in 4-6 are still clones, while the average Stormtrooper is just a regular soldier pressed into duty. Also, Luke isn't up to military requirements for duty.
Originally posted by Kesh
Never explicitly stated but it is believed that the elite troops in 4-6 are still clones, while the average Stormtrooper is just a regular soldier pressed into duty. Also, Luke isn't up to military requirements for duty.
shh... not so loud. you're ruining the whole star wars series for Louzer
but yeah, wow... never realised that before... re: clones alongside 'regular blokes' who signed up with the empire because of the "benefits, and you get to push people around (except when they mindtrick you
Originally posted by melgross
We seem to have veered off here in some odd, inexplicable way.
*raises hand* hmm i agree, i also think i'm partly to blame
edit: but also i think it has to do with the minor star wars reference in the original "apple to use intel" article right at the top re: apple users being jedi or something.
edit2: i blame the media saturation with 'starwars'
People are actually receiving 2.7 duallies so IBM is producing them in shipping capable numbers. I'm not so fixated on 3GHz. I think it's rather childish to get all worked up over a 300Mhz delta.
I'm looking for that next Macintosh architecture that surprises. Right now it's going to take a bit more than PCI-Express to wow me but I will be happy to move forward nontheless
The other thing that Apple should wake up to is wi/fi and Bluetooth.
Huh??
Apple was one of the first PC makers to support wifi and bluetooth. All their laptops now come with wifi standard (not true on the PC side) and most of their computers come with bluetooth standard or it can be added BTO. How many PC's have bluetooth included?
Now that they have shipped dual core FIRST with a nice fat front side bus they are TOO WAY COOL for Macs.
The RIGHT way that Apple should do this is to have BOTH PPC and Intel based MACchines !
The EASY way to do this is to buy SUN.
The pyridine shift that makes this SORT OF INEVITABLE is the fact that SOON all HOT gaming clients will be PPC.
BUT MOST OF THE SERVERS WILL CONTINUE TO INTEL AND MANY OF THOSE WILL BE SUN SOLARIS !!!
Originally posted by MACchine
Once Intel put a decent floating point processor on their chips they became good enough to put in a Mac.
Now that they have shipped dual core FIRST with a nice fat front side bus they are TOO WAY COOL for Macs.
The RIGHT way that Apple should do this is to have BOTH PPC and Intel based MACchines !
The EASY way to do this is to buy SUN.
The pyridine shift that makes this SORT OF INEVITABLE is the fact that SOON all HOT gaming clients will be PPC.
BUT MOST OF THE SERVERS WILL CONTINUE TO INTEL AND MANY OF THOSE WILL BE SUN SOLARIS !!!
was going to give you the smackdown for over-enthusiasm but nah, no worries mate
welcome to AppleInsider
the PPC IBM architecture IS very promising, we Mac fans are just waiting to reap the rewards... SOON !!