In fairness, they don't do any testing at Indy to get full info on it.
Although the track was just resurfaced this year, F1 has raced on the banking for the past 5 years. Michelin deserve all of the blame in this incident.
Here's the statement that the FIA released this morning:
Quote:
"Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.
At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.
The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams? lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that ?tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances?.
A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally ? from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.
The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.
What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.
It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules."
Although the track was just resurfaced this year, F1 has raced on the banking for the past 5 years. Michelin deserve all of the blame in this incident.
Here's the statement that the FIA released this morning:
Well in a technical point of vue, I think that slowing down at the 13 is very difficult to achieve in a race. Drivers do not look at their speed meter while driving. By instinct most drivers would have not reduce their speed in the turn 13 if someone was behind them. An accident could have occur and the drama will be there.
All party involved are right here, it's unfortunate that the people who paid to see the race where screwed.
I would love to see an F1 Driver try and handle a 3400 pound stockcar with 800 horsepower and none of the technology that he is used to. I highly doubt that that driver could handle himself with such a heavy and poor handling racecar (compared to F1 and IRL) in a 43 car pack at 190 mph - not to mention bump drafting and racing three and four wide into a corner.
First off, don't confuse all of us as nascar haters. I think Nascar is fine: i just like indy more, and i like F1 more than indy. But to get to the point, Jeff Gordon made the conversion from open to closed wheel racing pretty quickly. Good drivers are good drivers, but since the F1 circuit draws from a much larger pool of top racers than any other circuit, logic dictates that its drivers are the best overall. That's just statistics -- no snobbiness intended.
Red Bull was supposed to be cultivating an All-American F1 team. I'm not sure if that's still in the works or not, but if there ever is an American team, I'm sure we'll see some top American prospects, and perhaps even established racers in other divisions, jump at the chance to race with the world's best. Nascar drivers included.
Red Bull was supposed to be cultivating an All-American F1 team. I'm not sure if that's still in the works or not, but if there ever is an American team, I'm sure we'll see some top American prospects, and perhaps even established racers in other divisions, jump at the chance to race with the world's best. Nascar drivers included.
Thanks for the clarification, Cool Gut's original post had an edge to it.
As for the American F1 deal and Nascar drivers, I think it comes down to money. Nascar is this country's largest spectator sport and there are billions of dollars associated with the Nextel Cup, as you know. What is the incentive for a Nextel Cup driver to leave for F1? Even when F1 races are broadcast here in the US, what kind of ratings do they draw? Other than guys like Borris Said and Robbie Gordon, who are already established road racers, I can't think of any Nextel Cup guy who would jump ship.
F1 is for Pansies,Fairy's and Lightweights, you want a real car get into a Nascar and dont cry about ovals they also have some tracks for you like Sears, etc. This crap of one kind of tire to Qualify and another for Racing is more Pantywaist where is my mommy kind of crap. Nascar dont Play those games. I like the #15 car. What do you expect from a bunch of non rednecks? Racing?
What is the incentive for a Nextel Cup driver to leave for F1? . . . I can't think of any Nextel Cup guy who would jump ship.
You're absolutely right. It's all about the money. If someone with deep pockets wanted to breed F1 interest in the states, though, his best opportunity in doing so would be to grab a guy like Gordon or Hornish Jr. and try to get him into an F1 car. Both of these guys have established careers in Nascar and Indy respectively, and both, I'm pretty sure, have actually driven F1 cars before, just not in any sort of competition.
Anyway, that's just a pile of hope and dreams without substance.
Out of curiosity, do you plan on getting VIP section tickets to any NASCAR or Indy races in the near future? I'm on the long-term product dev side of things, so I don't make it out to many of the events, but I might be at Homestead in November. (If you ever put on an RFID wristband at a race, that's me. . .)
First off, don't confuse all of us as nascar haters. I think Nascar is fine: i just like indy more, and i like F1 more than indy. But to get to the point, Jeff Gordon made the conversion from open to closed wheel racing pretty quickly. Good drivers are good drivers, but since the F1 circuit draws from a much larger pool of top racers than any other circuit, logic dictates that its drivers are the best overall. That's just statistics -- no snobbiness intended.
Red Bull was supposed to be cultivating an All-American F1 team. I'm not sure if that's still in the works or not, but if there ever is an American team, I'm sure we'll see some top American prospects, and perhaps even established racers in other divisions, jump at the chance to race with the world's best. Nascar drivers included.
I was at the Brickyard 400 like 2 years ago and the PA guy interviewed Gordon, he talked about making a special trip into indy durring F1 testing and trying out an F1 car on the road course, and the driver of the f1 car (I don't know what driver it was) drove a Nascar that Gordon brought in and Gordon said somthing like "I would love to race F1 ifr I didn't have it so good here in Nascar" and the F1 driver according to gordon liked the Nascar and said that it was fun to drive in a differant way, no whistles and bells, just the driver and his skill.
F1 is for Pansies,Fairy's and Lightweights, you want a real car get into a Nascar and dont cry about ovals they also have some tracks for you like Sears, etc. This crap of one kind of tire to Qualify and another for Racing is more Pantywaist where is my mommy kind of crap. Nascar dont Play those games. I like the #15 car. What do you expect from a bunch of non rednecks? Racing?
Hate to pop your bubble, but Nascar uses (or at least used to use) several compounds of goodyears. A very slick compound is used to qualify, it is all about speed. In the race, a differant, beetter handeling, longer lasting compound is used to race.
Also: IIRC F1 allows one set of tires per race baring a tire failure...Nascar changes tires like 3-4 times per race. so tires are more of a key for F1
How true is this exactly? It seems there are only about 40 Nascar races or so. If you assume 100,000 to 300,000 people per race, that's about 4-12 million people. The Big Ten college football conference alone has something like 5.5 million people per year. I'm guessing Nascar isn't close to being "the country's largest spectator sport."
As for the hillbilly reference, Rusty is from St. Louis, point leader Jimmie Johnson is from the San Diego area, yesterday's race winner, Greg Biffle, is from Oregon.
Euro's dont know what they are saying except some excuses for a bunch of sissy's making more excuses because they cant race on the P.O.S. French Tire. Nascars have more dents and scrapes in one race then F1 gets in a whole season of ..of ....i was going to say racing........
Euro's dont know what they are saying except some excuses for a bunch of sissy's making more excuses because they cant race on the P.O.S. French Tire. Nascars have more dents and scrapes in one race then F1 gets in a whole season of ..of ....i was going to say racing........
I wouldn't call 'dents and scrapes' a sign of a good driver. Sloppy, perhaps.
Nascars have more dents and scrapes in one race then F1 gets in a whole season of ..of ....i was going to say racing........
That's because those heavy and ugly piece of shit cars can't turn for **** and the drivers aren't good enough for anything else. Except maybe demolition derbies.
I wouldn't call 'dents and scrapes' a sign of a good driver. Sloppy, perhaps.
No, they just have to actually drive the car. It's not like formula snooze where they have so many driving aids that the car practically drives itself.
No, they just have to actually drive the car. It's not like formula snooze where they have so many driving aids that the car practically drives itself.
True, Also what the Euro's dont know is we have Infineon this weekend. Not a Oval but lots of corners and they arent driving little airplanes as F1 they are driving 3500lbs of auto that hit 200mph! Watch out im coming through!
No, they just have to actually drive the car. It's not like formula snooze where they have so many driving aids that the car practically drives itself.
Hey, NASCAR, 1940's calling ... they want their cars back.
I suspect heads will roll at michelin, as they will have to pony up £ millions compensation.
Why Michelin? When it was the FIA that just wouldn't budge on the matter. Michelin brought along working tyres and the FIA should've let them run the new tyres but have no points for those guys...
Michelin made a mistake, but the FIA couldn't bring it to themselves to create a workaround. Michelin were right to tell it's team's drivers not to race for safety. The FIA were right that it is braking the rules, but there should have been a workaround.
Comments
Originally posted by danielctull
In fairness, they don't do any testing at Indy to get full info on it.
Although the track was just resurfaced this year, F1 has raced on the banking for the past 5 years. Michelin deserve all of the blame in this incident.
Here's the statement that the FIA released this morning:
"Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.
At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.
The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams? lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that ?tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances?.
A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally ? from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.
The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.
What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.
It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules."
Originally posted by audiopollution
Although the track was just resurfaced this year, F1 has raced on the banking for the past 5 years. Michelin deserve all of the blame in this incident.
Here's the statement that the FIA released this morning:
Well in a technical point of vue, I think that slowing down at the 13 is very difficult to achieve in a race. Drivers do not look at their speed meter while driving. By instinct most drivers would have not reduce their speed in the turn 13 if someone was behind them. An accident could have occur and the drama will be there.
All party involved are right here, it's unfortunate that the people who paid to see the race where screwed.
Originally posted by DanMacMan
I would love to see an F1 Driver try and handle a 3400 pound stockcar with 800 horsepower and none of the technology that he is used to. I highly doubt that that driver could handle himself with such a heavy and poor handling racecar (compared to F1 and IRL) in a 43 car pack at 190 mph - not to mention bump drafting and racing three and four wide into a corner.
First off, don't confuse all of us as nascar haters. I think Nascar is fine: i just like indy more, and i like F1 more than indy. But to get to the point, Jeff Gordon made the conversion from open to closed wheel racing pretty quickly. Good drivers are good drivers, but since the F1 circuit draws from a much larger pool of top racers than any other circuit, logic dictates that its drivers are the best overall. That's just statistics -- no snobbiness intended.
Red Bull was supposed to be cultivating an All-American F1 team. I'm not sure if that's still in the works or not, but if there ever is an American team, I'm sure we'll see some top American prospects, and perhaps even established racers in other divisions, jump at the chance to race with the world's best. Nascar drivers included.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
That's just statistics -- no snobbiness intended.
Red Bull was supposed to be cultivating an All-American F1 team. I'm not sure if that's still in the works or not, but if there ever is an American team, I'm sure we'll see some top American prospects, and perhaps even established racers in other divisions, jump at the chance to race with the world's best. Nascar drivers included.
Thanks for the clarification, Cool Gut's original post had an edge to it.
As for the American F1 deal and Nascar drivers, I think it comes down to money. Nascar is this country's largest spectator sport and there are billions of dollars associated with the Nextel Cup, as you know. What is the incentive for a Nextel Cup driver to leave for F1? Even when F1 races are broadcast here in the US, what kind of ratings do they draw? Other than guys like Borris Said and Robbie Gordon, who are already established road racers, I can't think of any Nextel Cup guy who would jump ship.
Originally posted by DanMacMan
What is the incentive for a Nextel Cup driver to leave for F1? . . . I can't think of any Nextel Cup guy who would jump ship.
You're absolutely right. It's all about the money. If someone with deep pockets wanted to breed F1 interest in the states, though, his best opportunity in doing so would be to grab a guy like Gordon or Hornish Jr. and try to get him into an F1 car. Both of these guys have established careers in Nascar and Indy respectively, and both, I'm pretty sure, have actually driven F1 cars before, just not in any sort of competition.
Anyway, that's just a pile of hope and dreams without substance.
Out of curiosity, do you plan on getting VIP section tickets to any NASCAR or Indy races in the near future? I'm on the long-term product dev side of things, so I don't make it out to many of the events, but I might be at Homestead in November. (If you ever put on an RFID wristband at a race, that's me. . .)
Originally posted by DanMacMan
I can't think of any Nextel Cup guy who would jump ship.
What makes you think they're good enough for F1?
"Ah cain't handle all them instramants on mah wheel Billy Bob".
NASCAR is the most retarded sport on earth. And those fugly piece of shit cars are 3400 pounds?? No wonder they have to race them in oval tracks. lol
I think they even have horns.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
First off, don't confuse all of us as nascar haters. I think Nascar is fine: i just like indy more, and i like F1 more than indy. But to get to the point, Jeff Gordon made the conversion from open to closed wheel racing pretty quickly. Good drivers are good drivers, but since the F1 circuit draws from a much larger pool of top racers than any other circuit, logic dictates that its drivers are the best overall. That's just statistics -- no snobbiness intended.
Red Bull was supposed to be cultivating an All-American F1 team. I'm not sure if that's still in the works or not, but if there ever is an American team, I'm sure we'll see some top American prospects, and perhaps even established racers in other divisions, jump at the chance to race with the world's best. Nascar drivers included.
I was at the Brickyard 400 like 2 years ago and the PA guy interviewed Gordon, he talked about making a special trip into indy durring F1 testing and trying out an F1 car on the road course, and the driver of the f1 car (I don't know what driver it was) drove a Nascar that Gordon brought in and Gordon said somthing like "I would love to race F1 ifr I didn't have it so good here in Nascar" and the F1 driver according to gordon liked the Nascar and said that it was fun to drive in a differant way, no whistles and bells, just the driver and his skill.
Originally posted by Aurora
F1 is for Pansies,Fairy's and Lightweights, you want a real car get into a Nascar and dont cry about ovals they also have some tracks for you like Sears, etc. This crap of one kind of tire to Qualify and another for Racing is more Pantywaist where is my mommy kind of crap. Nascar dont Play those games. I like the #15 car.
Hate to pop your bubble, but Nascar uses (or at least used to use) several compounds of goodyears. A very slick compound is used to qualify, it is all about speed. In the race, a differant, beetter handeling, longer lasting compound is used to race.
Also: IIRC F1 allows one set of tires per race baring a tire failure...Nascar changes tires like 3-4 times per race. so tires are more of a key for F1
Originally posted by DanMacMan
Nascar is this country's largest spectator sport
How true is this exactly? It seems there are only about 40 Nascar races or so. If you assume 100,000 to 300,000 people per race, that's about 4-12 million people. The Big Ten college football conference alone has something like 5.5 million people per year. I'm guessing Nascar isn't close to being "the country's largest spectator sport."
Originally posted by DanMacMan
As for the hillbilly reference, Rusty is from St. Louis, point leader Jimmie Johnson is from the San Diego area, yesterday's race winner, Greg Biffle, is from Oregon.
Maybe hick is a better description.
Originally posted by Aurora
Euro's dont know what they are saying except some excuses for a bunch of sissy's making more excuses because they cant race on the P.O.S. French Tire. Nascars have more dents and scrapes in one race then F1 gets in a whole season of ..of ....i was going to say racing........
I wouldn't call 'dents and scrapes' a sign of a good driver. Sloppy, perhaps.
Originally posted by Aurora
Nascars have more dents and scrapes in one race then F1 gets in a whole season of ..of ....i was going to say racing........
That's because those heavy and ugly piece of shit cars can't turn for **** and the drivers aren't good enough for anything else. Except maybe demolition derbies.
Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent
Maybe hick is a better description.
lol I'm quite fond of the term redneck myself.
NASCAR= NECKCAR
Maybe the bridgstone runners could have started at the front. or the other teams could have had a time penalty. or both.
I suspect heads will roll at michelin, as they will have to pony up £ millions compensation.
Originally posted by audiopollution
I wouldn't call 'dents and scrapes' a sign of a good driver. Sloppy, perhaps.
No, they just have to actually drive the car. It's not like formula snooze where they have so many driving aids that the car practically drives itself.
Originally posted by BenRoethig
No, they just have to actually drive the car. It's not like formula snooze where they have so many driving aids that the car practically drives itself.
True, Also what the Euro's dont know is we have Infineon this weekend. Not a Oval but lots of corners and they arent driving little airplanes as F1 they are driving 3500lbs of auto that hit 200mph! Watch out im coming through!
Originally posted by BenRoethig
No, they just have to actually drive the car. It's not like formula snooze where they have so many driving aids that the car practically drives itself.
Hey, NASCAR, 1940's calling ... they want their cars back.
Originally posted by brandnewfatboy
I suspect heads will roll at michelin, as they will have to pony up £ millions compensation.
Why Michelin? When it was the FIA that just wouldn't budge on the matter. Michelin brought along working tyres and the FIA should've let them run the new tyres but have no points for those guys...
Michelin made a mistake, but the FIA couldn't bring it to themselves to create a workaround. Michelin were right to tell it's team's drivers not to race for safety. The FIA were right that it is braking the rules, but there should have been a workaround.