London News: Post Experiences, Discussion Here

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  • Reply 141 of 170
    sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by midwinter

    It's been hot as hell in London for the past few weeks.



    Hence the fact that the Brazilian man was wearing light clothing, that could never have concealed a 'suicide bomb', contrary to the heavy, bulky jacket bullshit issed by the UK authorities.



    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...537457,00.html
  • Reply 142 of 170
    sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Alex London

    That shit is shit.



    Until you get murdered by the state for no reason. But then, its too late huh?
  • Reply 143 of 170
    sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by aplnub

    Maybe they should add don't break the law and keep your visa updated.



    Agreed about the Visa thing...but that was not why he was murdered. He was murdered because he was running to catch a train. Since when was running to catch a train against the law?
  • Reply 144 of 170
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by sammi jo

    Agreed about the Visa thing...but that was not why he was murdered. He was murdered because he was running to catch a train. Since when was running to catch a train against the law?



    That's what doesn't make any sense, either. Loads of people of all stripes and colors and clothing styles run to catch tube trains. I mean, hell, it's not as if London is all white people, although the BNP apparently has plans for that.



    Why was this guy singled out?
  • Reply 145 of 170
    sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by midwinter

    That's what doesn't make any sense, either. Loads of people of all stripes and colors and clothing styles run to catch tube trains. I mean, hell, it's not as if London is all white people, although the BNP apparently has plans for that.



    Why was this guy singled out?




    And according to the Metropolitan Police, the man did NOT jump the barrier. Also, according the Guardian story, the alleged killer is "on leave", but still has not been identified. How convenient.



    This looks as though Scotland Yard (and the UK Home Office) is covering up for some as of yet unknown third party, taking the heat for awhile, not identifying anyone, until the story gets old and the media drop the coverage. It is most probable that none of their guys had anything to do with it; the methods used here are most atypical of UK cops, even armed undercover officers. This man was held down, he was in custody, then he took 7 bullets in the head in quick succession. This looks like a pre-arranged, deliberate and clinical kill, more characteristic of a foreign intelligence hit squad., and not a case of bad policework. Whoever the killers are, instead of hitting an Islamic man, they messed up and got a Brazilian electrician instead.



    BTW, who does targeted assassinations with the blessing of both the UK and US governments?



    I shall stick my neck out and make a prediction: This story will disappear from the mainstream, and the real killers' identities will remain unknown. If Scotland Yard does eventually come up with names and faces, it will be necessary to hear from eyewitnesses who saw it all happen...to confirm or reject Scotland Yard's story.
  • Reply 146 of 170
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    The tactic is unusual. The London police have been getting instructions from the Israelis on how to deal with this (headshots). Even Livingstone has defended the policy of shooting to kill.



    Again, what I don't understand is what this guy did to get singled out. Was he followed? Was he pointed out? If he wasn't dressed strangely and was merely running to catch a tube train (which is a little odd, considering you usually don't have to wait more than a couple of minutes for one), how did he even get the attention of the police?
  • Reply 147 of 170
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by midwinter

    The tactic is unusual. The London police have been getting instructions from the Israelis on how to deal with this (headshots). Even Livingstone has defended the policy of shooting to kill.



    Again, what I don't understand is what this guy did to get singled out. Was he followed? Was he pointed out? If he wasn't dressed strangely and was merely running to catch a tube train (which is a little odd, considering you usually don't have to wait more than a couple of minutes for one), how did he even get the attention of the police?




    agreed, If he was followed from his home, they should have had plenty of time to intercept him before he arrived at the subway.
  • Reply 148 of 170
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by sammi jo

    This looks as though Scotland Yard (and the UK Home Office) is covering up for some as of yet unknown third party, taking the heat for awhile, not identifying anyone, until the story gets old and the media drop the coverage. It is most probable that none of their guys had anything to do with it; the methods used here are most atypical of UK cops, even armed undercover officers. This man was held down, he was in custody, then he took 7 bullets in the head in quick succession. This looks like a pre-arranged, deliberate and clinical kill, more characteristic of a foreign intelligence hit squad., and not a case of bad policework. Whoever the killers are, instead of hitting an Islamic man, they messed up and got a Brazilian electrician instead.



    You are so quick with your conspiracy theories, sammi. Let's at least leave the most realistic alternatives open. I don't think the english media, or the world press, will let this story slip away.
  • Reply 149 of 170
    sunilramansunilraman Posts: 8,133member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by New

    You are so quick with your conspiracy theories, sammi. Let's at least leave the most realistic alternatives open. I don't think the english media, or the world press, will let this story slip away.



    well, if the 7 quick shots to the head is true, then it would seem that they were after someone that they had compelling evidence on, that they were going to bring this guy DOWN. either that or the police were playing too much counterstrike at the local net cafes and got really good at headshots



    the mistaken identity reasons will surface eventually. unfortunately, it won't bring this innocent brazilian dude back to life
  • Reply 150 of 170
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    The shoot for kill policy is wrong. I am glad that the french prime minister, said that he will not applie this policy.



    "kill and then discuss"
  • Reply 151 of 170
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by sunilraman

    well, if the 7 quick shots to the head is true, then it would seem that they were after someone that they had compelling evidence on, that they were going to bring this guy DOWN. either that or the police were playing too much counterstrike at the local net cafes and got really good at headshots



    the mistaken identity reasons will surface eventually. unfortunately, it won't bring this innocent brazilian dude back to life




    Yeah, but I'm afraid that right now, with the information presented to me, I find it bad policing more likely than the grand israeli conspiracy.



    Sammi seems to want to drag everything into a conspiracy theory cycle. As her first instinct. To me, who maybe shares many of her basic political views, this is kind of hard to swallow.



    This seems to me to be a case of substituting good political analysis, with area 52 yada yada. It just hurts the discussion. When solid evidence is one the table, fine, let's discuss it. But In most cases, the most likely explanation happens to be true.
  • Reply 152 of 170
    aplnubaplnub Posts: 2,590member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by sammi jo

    Agreed about the Visa thing...but that was not why he was murdered. He was murdered because he was running to catch a train. Since when was running to catch a train against the law?



    By no means I am saying that running for a train is against the law.
  • Reply 153 of 170
    aplnubaplnub Posts: 2,590member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Powerdoc

    The shoot for kill policy is wrong. I am glad that the french prime minister, said that he will not applie this policy.



    "kill and then discuss"




    Is shoot first ask later really wrong?



    It is a catch 22 (not a win-win) and I would rather they shoot first and ask later. The second they comtemplate shooting and someone does trigger a bomb, then shooting first makes sense.



    As far as the FPM saying they won't, that is not a big surprise. However, I wonder how quickly (or at all) that policy would change if this was in Paris in the FPM's metro stop instead of London.
  • Reply 154 of 170
    nofeernofeer Posts: 2,422member
    should the death penalty be used for terrorists???maybe britain and europe should consider changing their views
  • Reply 155 of 170
    sammi josammi jo Posts: 4,634member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by New

    Yeah, but I'm afraid that right now, with the information presented to me, I find it bad policing more likely than the grand israeli conspiracy.



    Sammi seems to want to drag everything into a conspiracy theory cycle. As her first instinct. To me, who maybe shares many of her basic political views, this is kind of hard to swallow.



    This seems to me to be a case of substituting good political analysis, with area 52 yada yada. It just hurts the discussion. When solid evidence is one the table, fine, let's discuss it. But In most cases, the most likely explanation happens to be true.




    I'm not sure why you are using that tired 'conspiracy theory' fall back. It seems to have become an almost Pavlovian response to anyone who doubts official, (but absurd) explanations. I have no problems with official stories that make sense....but here, there are problems. If something looks decidely unkosher, or makes little sense, or is improbable, or unlikely, or out of character, etc etc, then there is a good chance that another explanation is, at the very least, possible, or deserves air. It is a great shame that we are expected to toe the line and digest what we are told, by default, in a faith-based, rather than fact-based standpoint.



    The "foreign intelligence" possibility is off-message, I grant you that: it would be most embarassing for the Blair administration if a 'foreign "anti-terrorist" squad' had screwed up and killed an innocent man in cold blood. But a "conspiracy theory", unfortunately, has connotations of "Elvis, UFOs, and the Weekly World News"..and to label something a C.T. has become a fashionable and highly effective tool to link distasteful explanations with "wackoism", and thereby trashing valid lines of inquiry, by inappropriate and often kneejerk-type association.



    We always have to be aware that the national media have a history of always tending towards government lapdog status, rather than watchdog, certainly when it comes to 'heavy' types of issue, such as this. On the other hand, as regards trivia, personal scandal, sex, and fluff-stuff etc., the national media are watchdogs, especially here in the USA (and other western style democracies). I would far prefer this upside-down sense of priorities to be reversed....but that is way too much to ever expect.
  • Reply 156 of 170
    aplnubaplnub Posts: 2,590member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by sammi jo

    We always have to be aware that the national media have a history of always tending towards government lapdog status, rather than watchdog, certainly when it comes to 'heavy' types of issue, such as this.



    You would be hard pressed to prove that in the USA.
  • Reply 157 of 170
    crazychestercrazychester Posts: 1,339member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by aplnub

    Is shoot first ask later really wrong?



    If I'd just had several bullets fired into my brain, I think one of my final thoughts would very likely be something along the lines of "Gee, this is really wrong." Possibly even "this is really, really wrong."



    How about you?



    On a more practical level, a live terrorist seems much better value to me than a dead one given perpetrating terrorist acts and maintaining a terrorist network relies on a high degree of secrecy in order to be successful. Using intelligence to uncover terrorist cells involves significantly less difficulty and risk, I would have thought, than trying to spot some guy with a bomb strapped to his body wandering around in a large city crowd.
  • Reply 158 of 170
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by crazychester

    On a more practical level, a live terrorist seems much better value to me than a dead one given perpetrating terrorist acts and maintaining a terrorist network relies on a high degree of secrecy in order to be successful. Using intelligence to uncover terrorist cells involves significantly less difficulty and risk, I would have thought, than trying to spot some guy with a bomb strapped to his body wandering around in a large city crowd.



    The argument goes like this: unless you kill the suicide bomber, he/she may still be able to set off the bomb.



    This is the Israeli tactic that London has adopted.
  • Reply 159 of 170
    aplnubaplnub Posts: 2,590member
    What about the situation I described in the rest of my post you left out?



    Quote:

    Originally posted by aplnub

    Is shoot first ask later really wrong?



    It is a catch 22 (not a win-win) and I would rather they shoot first and ask later. The second they comtemplate shooting and someone does trigger a bomb, then shooting first makes sense.













    Yes, 7 bullets to the head woud suck and my last thought would probably be WTH is going on!!









    Quote:

    Originally posted by crazychester

    If I'd just had several bullets fired into my brain, I think one of my final thoughts would very likely be something along the lines of "Gee, this is really wrong." Possibly even "this is really, really wrong."



    How about you?



    On a more practical level, a live terrorist seems much better value to me than a dead one given perpetrating terrorist acts and maintaining a terrorist network relies on a high degree of secrecy in order to be successful. Using intelligence to uncover terrorist cells involves significantly less difficulty and risk, I would have thought, than trying to spot some guy with a bomb strapped to his body wandering around in a large city crowd.




  • Reply 160 of 170
    curiousuburbcuriousuburb Posts: 3,325member
    FYI:



    Police have now arrested all 4 suspected bombers in the failed "2nd" round of attacks on July 21.
    • 1 in Birmingham yesterday (Tazered)

      (the Metropolitan police chief reportedly criticized those who tazered that suspect rather than providing a few new 9mm skull openings, but it looks like the correct decision because dead men can't reveal their accomplices and it appears that the remaining arrests were in part aided by information provided by that suspect while in custody)

    • 2 in London today (CS gas in apartment, both alive and in custody, if a bit teary-eyed)

      ITV/Daily Mail bought video footage from a neighbour across the street that actually shows the "swat team" firing CS gas into the apartment and getting the guys out in skivvies with hands up... gripping footage

    • 1 in Rome with the help of the Italian police (tracked due to use of a Rome Cell phone shortly after the bombings and subsequent calls he made [from the same phone - idiot] in the last two days from Paris, Milan, and Rome)

    very effective policework.



    Note to AG Gonzales and GWB... no torture required. All suspected terrorists caught in a week.
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