Actually my last PC was an ABit BP6-based dual Celeron beast I homebuilt in '99.
I had the same machine about that time. Here... the good old days of cheap SMP. The board was shit (CPU power stabilization capacitor was the wrong size, Highpoint ATA66 drive compatibility was a nightmare... typical asian sweatshop engineering), but it certainly did recognize the HDs automatically.
Quote:
That thing got retired when I got my 20" iMac G5 last September. Thankfully I no longer have to even think about BIOS and all the other wonderful trappings of Windows PCs.
Now you have to deal with the trappings of MAC PCs.
from their notes, it seems to run fine on certain motherboards, but not all, presumably due to specific driver dependencies in the current rev. ie: if you know what the hardware will be (apple-branded), no need to support any other motherboards.
so it may just be a matter building PCs with the same low-level components as the official apple brand models.
so it may just be a matter building PCs with the same low-level components as the official apple brand models.
Unless Apple includes a proprietary impossible-to-buy chip, in which case a crack will appear in a week or two. Anyway, I seriously doubt that Apple is going to put significant development effort into locking the OS.
3) Apple has already said that the new Intel Macs won't be BIOS based.
Not that I don't believe you, but could you provide a link to this? All I've found so far is Apple stating that they definitely won't be Open Firmware-based.
Not that I don't believe you, but could you provide a link to this? All I've found so far is Apple stating that they definitely won't be Open Firmware-based.
I'll see if I can find one - it was among the flurry of info coming from Apple at WWDC.
With all PC Intel Mobos shipping with TCPA, I think it's far more of a stretch to say that these computers WONT come with TCPA than will.
Also, the fact that there is a linux driver for TCPA doesn't mean jack. On linux, you or someone else can just remove it.
Intrinsically, Apple having TCPA doesn't mean they will "take advantage" of it. However, it does mean that they have the ABILITY to.
Imagine if all your iTMS-bought media was encrypted for YOUR computer. Apple may not want to do it, but the media companies might make them.
One thing I really don't like about Apple is that they are now the bitch of the RIAA. Already, Apple has proven they aren't afraid of deleting media from your computer (read the EULA on iTMS, or just read a testimonial).
Would it surprise me if Apple integrated TCPA functionality into the OS? Not a bit. The minute it starts limiting the use of MY computer, that's when I'll stop buying Apple.
Since I'm pretty positive Vista (Longhorn/Win2006) will fail, I'm guessing Windows XP will be supported for the next decade. Perhaps I'll switch to that until Linux gets its act together.
Already, Apple has proven they aren't afraid of deleting media from your computer (read the EULA on iTMS, or just read a testimonial).
Care to give some links for these? Not only the appropriate EULA snippet, but the testimonials, complete with some proof? Because this is the first *whiff* I've heard of such shenanigans.
Care to give some links for these? Not only the appropriate EULA snippet, but the testimonials, complete with some proof? Because this is the first *whiff* I've heard of such shenanigans.
Well I haven't found the specific one I was looking for, this is good though:
The story I was referring to is that a guy bought some iTMS songs in the US, brought his laptop to europe (at the time there was no iTMS store there). When the laptop figured out where it was, it deleted all purchased music immediately.
Apple ended up giving him a gift card, but it took a very long time IIRC, where they presented the EULA he agreed to.
The story I was referring to is that a guy bought some iTMS songs in the US, brought his laptop to europe (at the time there was no iTMS store there). When the laptop figured out where it was, it deleted all purchased music immediately.
On the PCs in the past 4 years, you never have touch the BIOS unless you're doing something funky such as custom tuning memory timings.
Even then, most of the mobo companies now have in-Windows BIOS tuning programs.
Get out of the old and get into the cold!
erm, i have several relatively new x86 based boards. In several case we must go into the BIOS enable USB disk booting and worse other boards will NOT detect or even 'allow' booting from a USB based disk.
erm, u need to go in to the BIOS to tell the machine to boot from a CD/DVD Rom. Many boards by default have the first boot device set up as Floppy the second as HDD-0. You must physically go into the BIOS an rearrange the device booting sequence. In fact, some machines will still refuse to boot from the CD/DVD disks unless you go into the BIOS an completely disable ALL other HDD devices and make CDROM the first boot device. This is with boards not much older than 6 months-1 year and usually AMD based boards.
I my experience your statement
"you never have touch the BIOS unless you're doing something funky such as custom tuning memory timings'
Um, you mean where Apple was shipping MusicMatch Jukebox with the iPod for Windows, then switched to iTunes, and on installation warned the user that the new upgrade would disable MusicMatch Jukebox, and confirmed they wanted to continue?
Yeeeeeeeah, real sneaky there.
Edit: reread, and it's not clear if it only disabled MusicMatch software that had been shipped by Apple, or *any* MusicMatch installation. If the latter, that's pretty sloppy, I'll agree. If the former, um, y'know, that's kind of what an upgrade does - replace the old with the new. In either case, it *did* warn users.
"Hey there, I'm going to do X." "Okay." "Great, I did X." "OMG! You did X! How could you, you bastard!"
Quote:
The story I was referring to is that a guy bought some iTMS songs in the US, brought his laptop to europe (at the time there was no iTMS store there). When the laptop figured out where it was, it deleted all purchased music immediately.
Apple ended up giving him a gift card, but it took a very long time IIRC, where they presented the EULA he agreed to.
If this is as accurate as your above story, I'm going to wait for some more rigorous data...
Edit2: It's amazing what entering "itunes us europe move delete eula" into google will get you.
His songs were not deleted. They worked fine outside the US... until he had to reinstall his system, which triggered a re-authorization of the *still existing* song files. The re-authorization required using the authorization system on the iTMS... when he was outside the US. *bzzt* EULA violation.
I agree it's stupid, but it's the idiotic record labels insisting that everything be micro-managed on a per-market basis (DVD Regions, anyone?).
That was my bad, after rereading past the point where he said
I've now discovered that if you leave the country, your songs may just disappear, as mine have.
I read this when it was first posted (in 2003), what do you want from me?
Also, good job on tracking that story down. As you said, it's VERY hard to find these little bits of trivia sometimes.
Regardless, I still don't trust Apple to shy away from strict DRM and I think anyone would be naive to do so. It seems to me it might as well have deleted his songs, as they're basically encrypted and can't be accessed. Just junk data.
It shouldn't be much less of a disincentive to trust Apple.
If their computers come with TCPA, and I think it's safe to say they will, there's a very good chance they'll use it.
Edit: reread, and it's not clear if it only disabled MusicMatch software that had been shipped by Apple, or *any* MusicMatch installation.
IIRC, it would merely delete the link between MusicMatch and your iPod, i.e. from the point on that you use iTunes, you cannot use MusicMatch any more to update your iPod. MusicMatch, IIRC, remained fully functional.
damn kickaha is on fire here this is one of the most sensible round-ups of this whole TPM-on-macIntel-OMFG!!!111!! foofarah.
my thoughts:
1. apple not using BIOS is not because you *have* to fiddle with it but because you *can*. apple would prefer you to not go in and mess with settings as easily as hitting Del on startup and just changing things without really knowing. for example right now you can set some pretty crazy overclocks and bios boots with that but windows won't boot. also, i tink jonathan ives would have a heart attack if shipping macs showed the BIOS Dos-looking text screen when you first start up a macintel.
2. whatever the hell apple uses to prevent os X running on generic pcs, it will be cracked. but in any case apple is in no position to just sell mac os X off the shelf and have to support it, *unless* they command a premium in support charges (in which case they'd rather make that profit from hardware sales)
3. the only other possibility is apple licensing os X for something like Sony Vaios. but apple is very very wary about collaborations with big companies that just don't match their style (as in "operating philosophies"). a Sony mac os X machine might be cool, but sony's internal divisions are a bit of a mess, and they are already in conflict with apple re: music licensing.....
I'd like to further reiterate that TCPA does NOT JUST MEAN that OS X will only run on Apple-branded machines.
It can and may well mean that other sofware will be made that will eliminate your ability to view certain media or transfer ownership of software.
TCPA gives each computer its own unchangeable "serial number" which is used by the software to identify the machine it's running on. It will be used on platforms like Vista (windows 200[6]) to prevent piracy, and in doing so will limit what you do on your own computer (even if you don't pirate). If it is used in OS X, you're guaranteed not to like it.
I hear people making the idiotic and tongue-in-cheek comment all the time about how "if you don't pirate then it shouldn't bother you." Just wait and see how it feels when this happens to you.
I'd like to further reiterate that TCPA does NOT JUST MEAN that OS X will only run on Apple-branded machines.
Replace 'does' with 'may' and you have a factual statement. Right now it's speculation, not fact.
Quote:
It can and may well mean that other sofware will be made that will eliminate your ability to view certain media or transfer ownership of software.
TCPA gives each computer its own unchangeable "serial number" which is used by the software to identify the machine it's running on. It will be used on platforms like Vista (windows 200[6]) to prevent piracy, and in doing so will limit what you do on your own computer (even if you don't pirate). If it is used in OS X, you're guaranteed not to like it.
Oy. The 'if it has any unlawful use, ban it' argument is what the MPAA and RIAA have used against VCRs, MP3 encoders, and such for years, to much outrage and guffawing. Do you really want to join them?
I prefer to wait and see how a technology is being utilized before screaming for public pillory of a company.
Quote:
I hear people making the idiotic and tongue-in-cheek comment all the time about how "if you don't pirate then it shouldn't bother you." Just wait and see how it feels when this happens to you.
What, running a buggy product?
I get the point you're attempting to make, I just don't think you're making it well.
Oy. The 'if it has any unlawful use, ban it' argument is what the MPAA and RIAA have used against VCRs, MP3 encoders, and such for years, to much outrage and guffawing. Do you really want to join them?
I prefer to wait and see how a technology is being utilized before screaming for public pillory of a company.
You really want to wait and see whether or not someone's going to take advantage of power?
I suppose me being a libertarian, I choose not to give power to people and "wait for them to abuse it."
It can and WILL be abused if they implement it.
By the way, you reversing the oppressor and the oppressed role is really disturbing.
What if we implemented a law that would give [insert name of politician you personally dislike] unlimited power in an "emergency situation..."
Would you vote for it? After all, just because it's THERE doesn't mean it's going to get USED, right?
We are the consumers, the people, the average joe. We have the right to say "F-Off" to anything greater than ourselves, unless I missed something.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
What, running a buggy product?
I get the point you're attempting to make, I just don't think you're making it well.
If you see the point I'm trying to make.. well that's the point.
If you can sit there and KNOW that DRM means inconvenience and making everyone pay for the POSSIBLE mistakes of a few, and yet STILL not be afraid of it, then there's no use in debating.
We're not talking about some program like iTunes here, we're talking a whole platform. If they do this, and it goes the way Vista is going and the RIAA (who have made Apple their bitch) want it to go, then we're all going to be living in a world of hurt.
Imagine your computer sending information to 3rd party companies without your permission--whenever you register a product (and btw, they'll FORCE YOU TO ala M$), the software vendors could add that to a pool of data on that machine based on the TCPA code (should they choose to, which they eventually will).
Isn't this why we use Macs over Windows?
I'm not saying it's going to happen, I'm saying it's going to happen IF Apple embraces it. I'm also saying... it wouldn't be that out of character for Apple. If we don't make our opinions known about this, the chances can only be increased.
So what you're saying is that we should all run around like crazy screaming about possibilities when we haven't a clue whether they *MIGHT* come to pass or not, and drive ourselves into a tizzy over them? That's not upholding libertarian views, that's just pointless, IMO.
Seriously - the copyright holders in the MPAA and the RIAA were scared to death that VCRs and MP3 encoders *could* be used for blatantly illegal purposes that *might* harm them, so they tried to get technologies banned *en masse*. They didn't care if there were good legitimate uses for them, because there was a *possible* infringement of their legal rights, they wanted them to be completely absent from the marketplace.
Now flip it around. You, as the consumer, are afraid that DRM *could* be used in a way that *might* harm you, in a way that would be a *possible* infringement of your rights, so you want them completely absent from the marketplace. Really, tell me how this is different, given that DRM has legitimate uses in the current legal environment. Don't get into a 'corporations shouldn't have the rights of people' argument, because I'll agree with you, what I'm interested in is seeing how you can distinguish why one is bad, but the other is good given the current set of laws on the books. I'm sorry you find the argument 'disturbing', but to me it seems rather self-evident.
Let me ask you something simple: have you sent a rational and thought-out letter to Apple to let them know that the possibility of DRM in hardware bothers you, because you are concerned where it might go? I have. If you haven't, please go do so. Adding your *rational* voice to the discussion will help, certainly more than lecturing the rest of us and trying to whip up a pointless frenzy. If Apple gets a flurry of "OMG! You're evil!" comments, they're going to ignore them, and rightfully so. They don't add any value.
There is plenty to be discussed and plenty of information to be conveyed to the ignorant without having to resort to chicken littleing and other emotional pleas. We can certainly do that... we *were* in this thread for a while there.
And, as a consumer, you have the *ultimate* in power in a free-market situation: don't buy. Oh, what's that? You want what they're selling *except* for a certain part of it, and they're not willing to break it out for you? According to the principles of libertarianism, you're up a creek, because, you know, it's *theirs*. You can't 'give them the power' unless you buy their product.
See, I'm a libertarian too - but I prefer to approach the issues with some semblance of rational thought instead of going off on a rant at the first whiff of a possible problem. Try and figure out the flip side of the situation, what your perceived opponent wants, and then discuss it rationally.
Nobody knows if there will be TCPA in the Intel Macs. Period. The possibility is there, but that's all it is, a possibility. How you can jump from that to asserting that Apple will enforce trusted code computing across the board is beyond me. Heck, *take a look* at what's in the dev kits. What's protected? Rosetta. Is that Apple's? No. What's not protected? *EVERYTHING ELSE*.
Seems like a trend there, doesn't it?
Like you said, make your opinion known, but come on... it *is* possible to have a rational discussion of the issues without running to extreme conclusions and stating them as fact.
There's enough FUD flying around about this as it is. Let's not add to it.
1. apple not using BIOS is not because you *have* to fiddle with it but because you *can*. apple would prefer you to not go in and mess with settings as easily as hitting Del on startup and just changing things without really knowing. for example right now you can set some pretty crazy overclocks and bios boots with that but windows won't boot. also, i tink jonathan ives would have a heart attack if shipping macs showed the BIOS Dos-looking text screen when you first start up a macintel.
More BIOS misinformation. It is possible to create locked-down, GUI, happy-looking BIOSes. It is also possible to create crazy, unfriendly, text-mode, overclocking EFI or Open Firmware.
the thing we can agree on, if it will save this thread, is that let's identify who the real 'enemies' are.
do you think apple really wants to have to have separate music stores for every bloody country and not just a global iTMS?
do you think apple really wants to have all this bullshit copy protection and DRM crap for music videos?
do you think that apple engineers were like, oh goody, let's put region protection on dvd-roms and force people to only make region changes 5 times.
libertarian or conservative, the one thing that capitalism has going for it is the focus on consumer.
at this stage, it is in apple's best interest, and their core competitive advantage and unique selling point revolves around ease-of-use for the consumer.
one can assume that their goals would be to reduce DRM in any way they can while still protecting their profits yet still serving the consumer. i am not saying that they are perfect and cannot be criticised, but let's look at the real culprits here.
the MPAAs and RIAAs and all these other owners of "traditional media" content that we still hunger for. the owners of content most suitable for high-definition - FILM and TV shot in HDvideo.
games and software have had 20 years of all sorts of DRM attempts and continue to do so. dongles (edit: and "please insert cd2") still continue to piss the hell out of me and luckily i have not really had to do much with them. software keys, shareware, etc, continues to be in a hack-patch-hack-patch cycle, and in this regard whatever TCPA/TPM for software and games will probably enter this cycle as before. do you realise that if you purchase Reason2/3 a popular music software, if you lose your original cd you are utterly fucked? no one has really figured out yet, last i checked, on properly backing up Reason2 discs without some annoying workarounds. (edit: to the credit of propellerHead they run a good website that helps you store your serial numbers and replacement discs are substantially lower than the original software. the webmaster has been very responsive to my needs in the past as well)
TCPA and TPM concern is first and foremost about our ownership and enjoyment of traditional content such as music and videos which can now be obtained and stored completely digitally, up to "near-2k film quality" or in otherwords 1080p-spec HiDef.
1. TCPA/TPM games and software.
if (you use windows)
{
good bloody luck its all a mess anyway
}
if (you use mac)
{
what sort of rights do you think apple is going to take away from you? by all means petition and give feedback and what not, but why don't you focus your efforts on waiting to see what is there in shipping protests? keep an eye on things, but save your energy
}
2. TCPA/TPM hdtv and movies and music
if (you want to make a difference)
{
my personal feeling is, use bitTorrent. a lot. the more people use it, it will send a message to the record and motion picture associations. it may not be too big a stretch to say that napster and mass music piracy finally catalysed online music distribution and contributed to the development of the iPod, iPod ecosystem, and mp3 player industry. i've enjoyed the whole season4 of alias, currently enjoying Battestar Season2 and 4400 Season 2. DailyShow is good now and then. (my main trouble now is with my absolutely HORKED dsl service... and a windtunnel PC otherwise i'd be bittorrenting more)
Comments
Actually my last PC was an ABit BP6-based dual Celeron beast I homebuilt in '99.
I had the same machine about that time. Here... the good old days of cheap SMP. The board was shit (CPU power stabilization capacitor was the wrong size, Highpoint ATA66 drive compatibility was a nightmare... typical asian sweatshop engineering), but it certainly did recognize the HDs automatically.
That thing got retired when I got my 20" iMac G5 last September. Thankfully I no longer have to even think about BIOS and all the other wonderful trappings of Windows PCs.
Now you have to deal with the trappings of MAC PCs.
http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu....005-08-10#4352
from their notes, it seems to run fine on certain motherboards, but not all, presumably due to specific driver dependencies in the current rev. ie: if you know what the hardware will be (apple-branded), no need to support any other motherboards.
so it may just be a matter building PCs with the same low-level components as the official apple brand models.
Originally posted by imiloa
so it may just be a matter building PCs with the same low-level components as the official apple brand models.
Unless Apple includes a proprietary impossible-to-buy chip, in which case a crack will appear in a week or two. Anyway, I seriously doubt that Apple is going to put significant development effort into locking the OS.
Originally posted by Kickaha
3) Apple has already said that the new Intel Macs won't be BIOS based.
Not that I don't believe you, but could you provide a link to this? All I've found so far is Apple stating that they definitely won't be Open Firmware-based.
Originally posted by CharlesS
Not that I don't believe you, but could you provide a link to this? All I've found so far is Apple stating that they definitely won't be Open Firmware-based.
I'll see if I can find one - it was among the flurry of info coming from Apple at WWDC.
Also, the fact that there is a linux driver for TCPA doesn't mean jack. On linux, you or someone else can just remove it.
Intrinsically, Apple having TCPA doesn't mean they will "take advantage" of it. However, it does mean that they have the ABILITY to.
Imagine if all your iTMS-bought media was encrypted for YOUR computer. Apple may not want to do it, but the media companies might make them.
One thing I really don't like about Apple is that they are now the bitch of the RIAA. Already, Apple has proven they aren't afraid of deleting media from your computer (read the EULA on iTMS, or just read a testimonial).
Would it surprise me if Apple integrated TCPA functionality into the OS? Not a bit. The minute it starts limiting the use of MY computer, that's when I'll stop buying Apple.
Since I'm pretty positive Vista (Longhorn/Win2006) will fail, I'm guessing Windows XP will be supported for the next decade. Perhaps I'll switch to that until Linux gets its act together.
Originally posted by slughead
Already, Apple has proven they aren't afraid of deleting media from your computer (read the EULA on iTMS, or just read a testimonial).
Care to give some links for these? Not only the appropriate EULA snippet, but the testimonials, complete with some proof? Because this is the first *whiff* I've heard of such shenanigans.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Care to give some links for these? Not only the appropriate EULA snippet, but the testimonials, complete with some proof? Because this is the first *whiff* I've heard of such shenanigans.
Well I haven't found the specific one I was looking for, this is good though:
http://pcworld.about.com/news/Nov072003id113336.htm
The story I was referring to is that a guy bought some iTMS songs in the US, brought his laptop to europe (at the time there was no iTMS store there). When the laptop figured out where it was, it deleted all purchased music immediately.
Apple ended up giving him a gift card, but it took a very long time IIRC, where they presented the EULA he agreed to.
The story I was referring to is that a guy bought some iTMS songs in the US, brought his laptop to europe (at the time there was no iTMS store there). When the laptop figured out where it was, it deleted all purchased music immediately.
Hehe... what a sucker!
Originally posted by skatman
You should upgrade your 486 machine, dude!
On the PCs in the past 4 years, you never have touch the BIOS unless you're doing something funky such as custom tuning memory timings.
Even then, most of the mobo companies now have in-Windows BIOS tuning programs.
Get out of the old and get into the cold!
erm, i have several relatively new x86 based boards. In several case we must go into the BIOS enable USB disk booting and worse other boards will NOT detect or even 'allow' booting from a USB based disk.
erm, u need to go in to the BIOS to tell the machine to boot from a CD/DVD Rom. Many boards by default have the first boot device set up as Floppy the second as HDD-0. You must physically go into the BIOS an rearrange the device booting sequence. In fact, some machines will still refuse to boot from the CD/DVD disks unless you go into the BIOS an completely disable ALL other HDD devices and make CDROM the first boot device. This is with boards not much older than 6 months-1 year and usually AMD based boards.
I my experience your statement
"you never have touch the BIOS unless you're doing something funky such as custom tuning memory timings'
is complete bollocks!!
Originally posted by slughead
Well I haven't found the specific one I was looking for, this is good though:
http://pcworld.about.com/news/Nov072003id113336.htm
Um, you mean where Apple was shipping MusicMatch Jukebox with the iPod for Windows, then switched to iTunes, and on installation warned the user that the new upgrade would disable MusicMatch Jukebox, and confirmed they wanted to continue?
Yeeeeeeeah, real sneaky there.
Edit: reread, and it's not clear if it only disabled MusicMatch software that had been shipped by Apple, or *any* MusicMatch installation. If the latter, that's pretty sloppy, I'll agree. If the former, um, y'know, that's kind of what an upgrade does - replace the old with the new. In either case, it *did* warn users.
"Hey there, I'm going to do X." "Okay." "Great, I did X." "OMG! You did X! How could you, you bastard!"
The story I was referring to is that a guy bought some iTMS songs in the US, brought his laptop to europe (at the time there was no iTMS store there). When the laptop figured out where it was, it deleted all purchased music immediately.
Apple ended up giving him a gift card, but it took a very long time IIRC, where they presented the EULA he agreed to.
If this is as accurate as your above story, I'm going to wait for some more rigorous data...
Edit2: It's amazing what entering "itunes us europe move delete eula" into google will get you.
Here's the original article: http://politechbot.com/p-04993.html
And here's the discussion: http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/03/0...id=141&tid=188
And here's the EULA: http://www.info.apple.com/usen/itunes/policies.html
His songs were not deleted. They worked fine outside the US... until he had to reinstall his system, which triggered a re-authorization of the *still existing* song files. The re-authorization required using the authorization system on the iTMS... when he was outside the US. *bzzt* EULA violation.
I agree it's stupid, but it's the idiotic record labels insisting that everything be micro-managed on a per-market basis (DVD Regions, anyone?).
But nothing was deleted.
Originally posted by Kickaha
But nothing was deleted.
That was my bad, after rereading past the point where he said
I've now discovered that if you leave the country, your songs may just disappear, as mine have.
I read this when it was first posted (in 2003), what do you want from me?
Also, good job on tracking that story down. As you said, it's VERY hard to find these little bits of trivia sometimes.
Regardless, I still don't trust Apple to shy away from strict DRM and I think anyone would be naive to do so. It seems to me it might as well have deleted his songs, as they're basically encrypted and can't be accessed. Just junk data.
It shouldn't be much less of a disincentive to trust Apple.
If their computers come with TCPA, and I think it's safe to say they will, there's a very good chance they'll use it.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Edit: reread, and it's not clear if it only disabled MusicMatch software that had been shipped by Apple, or *any* MusicMatch installation.
IIRC, it would merely delete the link between MusicMatch and your iPod, i.e. from the point on that you use iTunes, you cannot use MusicMatch any more to update your iPod. MusicMatch, IIRC, remained fully functional.
my thoughts:
1. apple not using BIOS is not because you *have* to fiddle with it but because you *can*. apple would prefer you to not go in and mess with settings as easily as hitting Del on startup and just changing things without really knowing. for example right now you can set some pretty crazy overclocks and bios boots with that but windows won't boot. also, i tink jonathan ives would have a heart attack if shipping macs showed the BIOS Dos-looking text screen when you first start up a macintel.
2. whatever the hell apple uses to prevent os X running on generic pcs, it will be cracked. but in any case apple is in no position to just sell mac os X off the shelf and have to support it, *unless* they command a premium in support charges (in which case they'd rather make that profit from hardware sales)
3. the only other possibility is apple licensing os X for something like Sony Vaios. but apple is very very wary about collaborations with big companies that just don't match their style (as in "operating philosophies"). a Sony mac os X machine might be cool, but sony's internal divisions are a bit of a mess, and they are already in conflict with apple re: music licensing.....
It can and may well mean that other sofware will be made that will eliminate your ability to view certain media or transfer ownership of software.
TCPA gives each computer its own unchangeable "serial number" which is used by the software to identify the machine it's running on. It will be used on platforms like Vista (windows 200[6]) to prevent piracy, and in doing so will limit what you do on your own computer (even if you don't pirate). If it is used in OS X, you're guaranteed not to like it.
I hear people making the idiotic and tongue-in-cheek comment all the time about how "if you don't pirate then it shouldn't bother you." Just wait and see how it feels when this happens to you.
Originally posted by slughead
I'd like to further reiterate that TCPA does NOT JUST MEAN that OS X will only run on Apple-branded machines.
Replace 'does' with 'may' and you have a factual statement. Right now it's speculation, not fact.
It can and may well mean that other sofware will be made that will eliminate your ability to view certain media or transfer ownership of software.
TCPA gives each computer its own unchangeable "serial number" which is used by the software to identify the machine it's running on. It will be used on platforms like Vista (windows 200[6]) to prevent piracy, and in doing so will limit what you do on your own computer (even if you don't pirate). If it is used in OS X, you're guaranteed not to like it.
Oy. The 'if it has any unlawful use, ban it' argument is what the MPAA and RIAA have used against VCRs, MP3 encoders, and such for years, to much outrage and guffawing. Do you really want to join them?
I prefer to wait and see how a technology is being utilized before screaming for public pillory of a company.
I hear people making the idiotic and tongue-in-cheek comment all the time about how "if you don't pirate then it shouldn't bother you." Just wait and see how it feels when this happens to you.
What, running a buggy product?
I get the point you're attempting to make, I just don't think you're making it well.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Oy. The 'if it has any unlawful use, ban it' argument is what the MPAA and RIAA have used against VCRs, MP3 encoders, and such for years, to much outrage and guffawing. Do you really want to join them?
I prefer to wait and see how a technology is being utilized before screaming for public pillory of a company.
You really want to wait and see whether or not someone's going to take advantage of power?
I suppose me being a libertarian, I choose not to give power to people and "wait for them to abuse it."
It can and WILL be abused if they implement it.
By the way, you reversing the oppressor and the oppressed role is really disturbing.
What if we implemented a law that would give [insert name of politician you personally dislike] unlimited power in an "emergency situation..."
Would you vote for it? After all, just because it's THERE doesn't mean it's going to get USED, right?
We are the consumers, the people, the average joe. We have the right to say "F-Off" to anything greater than ourselves, unless I missed something.
Originally posted by Kickaha
What, running a buggy product?
I get the point you're attempting to make, I just don't think you're making it well.
If you see the point I'm trying to make.. well that's the point.
If you can sit there and KNOW that DRM means inconvenience and making everyone pay for the POSSIBLE mistakes of a few, and yet STILL not be afraid of it, then there's no use in debating.
We're not talking about some program like iTunes here, we're talking a whole platform. If they do this, and it goes the way Vista is going and the RIAA (who have made Apple their bitch) want it to go, then we're all going to be living in a world of hurt.
Imagine your computer sending information to 3rd party companies without your permission--whenever you register a product (and btw, they'll FORCE YOU TO ala M$), the software vendors could add that to a pool of data on that machine based on the TCPA code (should they choose to, which they eventually will).
Isn't this why we use Macs over Windows?
I'm not saying it's going to happen, I'm saying it's going to happen IF Apple embraces it. I'm also saying... it wouldn't be that out of character for Apple. If we don't make our opinions known about this, the chances can only be increased.
Seriously - the copyright holders in the MPAA and the RIAA were scared to death that VCRs and MP3 encoders *could* be used for blatantly illegal purposes that *might* harm them, so they tried to get technologies banned *en masse*. They didn't care if there were good legitimate uses for them, because there was a *possible* infringement of their legal rights, they wanted them to be completely absent from the marketplace.
Now flip it around. You, as the consumer, are afraid that DRM *could* be used in a way that *might* harm you, in a way that would be a *possible* infringement of your rights, so you want them completely absent from the marketplace. Really, tell me how this is different, given that DRM has legitimate uses in the current legal environment. Don't get into a 'corporations shouldn't have the rights of people' argument, because I'll agree with you, what I'm interested in is seeing how you can distinguish why one is bad, but the other is good given the current set of laws on the books. I'm sorry you find the argument 'disturbing', but to me it seems rather self-evident.
Let me ask you something simple: have you sent a rational and thought-out letter to Apple to let them know that the possibility of DRM in hardware bothers you, because you are concerned where it might go? I have. If you haven't, please go do so. Adding your *rational* voice to the discussion will help, certainly more than lecturing the rest of us and trying to whip up a pointless frenzy. If Apple gets a flurry of "OMG! You're evil!" comments, they're going to ignore them, and rightfully so. They don't add any value.
There is plenty to be discussed and plenty of information to be conveyed to the ignorant without having to resort to chicken littleing and other emotional pleas. We can certainly do that... we *were* in this thread for a while there.
And, as a consumer, you have the *ultimate* in power in a free-market situation: don't buy. Oh, what's that? You want what they're selling *except* for a certain part of it, and they're not willing to break it out for you? According to the principles of libertarianism, you're up a creek, because, you know, it's *theirs*. You can't 'give them the power' unless you buy their product.
See, I'm a libertarian too - but I prefer to approach the issues with some semblance of rational thought instead of going off on a rant at the first whiff of a possible problem. Try and figure out the flip side of the situation, what your perceived opponent wants, and then discuss it rationally.
Nobody knows if there will be TCPA in the Intel Macs. Period. The possibility is there, but that's all it is, a possibility. How you can jump from that to asserting that Apple will enforce trusted code computing across the board is beyond me. Heck, *take a look* at what's in the dev kits. What's protected? Rosetta. Is that Apple's? No. What's not protected? *EVERYTHING ELSE*.
Seems like a trend there, doesn't it?
Like you said, make your opinion known, but come on... it *is* possible to have a rational discussion of the issues without running to extreme conclusions and stating them as fact.
There's enough FUD flying around about this as it is. Let's not add to it.
Originally posted by sunilraman
1. apple not using BIOS is not because you *have* to fiddle with it but because you *can*. apple would prefer you to not go in and mess with settings as easily as hitting Del on startup and just changing things without really knowing. for example right now you can set some pretty crazy overclocks and bios boots with that but windows won't boot. also, i tink jonathan ives would have a heart attack if shipping macs showed the BIOS Dos-looking text screen when you first start up a macintel.
More BIOS misinformation. It is possible to create locked-down, GUI, happy-looking BIOSes. It is also possible to create crazy, unfriendly, text-mode, overclocking EFI or Open Firmware.
do you think apple really wants to have to have separate music stores for every bloody country and not just a global iTMS?
do you think apple really wants to have all this bullshit copy protection and DRM crap for music videos?
do you think that apple engineers were like, oh goody, let's put region protection on dvd-roms and force people to only make region changes 5 times.
libertarian or conservative, the one thing that capitalism has going for it is the focus on consumer.
at this stage, it is in apple's best interest, and their core competitive advantage and unique selling point revolves around ease-of-use for the consumer.
one can assume that their goals would be to reduce DRM in any way they can while still protecting their profits yet still serving the consumer. i am not saying that they are perfect and cannot be criticised, but let's look at the real culprits here.
the MPAAs and RIAAs and all these other owners of "traditional media" content that we still hunger for. the owners of content most suitable for high-definition - FILM and TV shot in HDvideo.
games and software have had 20 years of all sorts of DRM attempts and continue to do so. dongles (edit: and "please insert cd2") still continue to piss the hell out of me and luckily i have not really had to do much with them. software keys, shareware, etc, continues to be in a hack-patch-hack-patch cycle, and in this regard whatever TCPA/TPM for software and games will probably enter this cycle as before. do you realise that if you purchase Reason2/3 a popular music software, if you lose your original cd you are utterly fucked? no one has really figured out yet, last i checked, on properly backing up Reason2 discs without some annoying workarounds. (edit: to the credit of propellerHead they run a good website that helps you store your serial numbers and replacement discs are substantially lower than the original software. the webmaster has been very responsive to my needs in the past as well)
TCPA and TPM concern is first and foremost about our ownership and enjoyment of traditional content such as music and videos which can now be obtained and stored completely digitally, up to "near-2k film quality" or in otherwords 1080p-spec HiDef.
1. TCPA/TPM games and software.
if (you use windows)
{
good bloody luck its all a mess anyway
}
if (you use mac)
{
what sort of rights do you think apple is going to take away from you? by all means petition and give feedback and what not, but why don't you focus your efforts on waiting to see what is there in shipping protests? keep an eye on things, but save your energy
}
2. TCPA/TPM hdtv and movies and music
if (you want to make a difference)
{
my personal feeling is, use bitTorrent. a lot. the more people use it, it will send a message to the record and motion picture associations. it may not be too big a stretch to say that napster and mass music piracy finally catalysed online music distribution and contributed to the development of the iPod, iPod ecosystem, and mp3 player industry. i've enjoyed the whole season4 of alias, currently enjoying Battestar Season2 and 4400 Season 2. DailyShow is good now and then. (my main trouble now is with my absolutely HORKED dsl service... and a windtunnel PC
}