If they can sell 10 million or so the first year, it sure will help. right now MS doesn't seem to know what it wants to do, or when it will do it as far as HD-DVD goes.
If they can sell 10 million or so the first year, it sure will help. right now MS doesn't seem to know what it wants to do, or when it will do it as far as HD-DVD goes.
I think that the format war is pretty much finished. We're just waiting for the de facto winner. While Xbox looks good, it will be squashed by PS3 and later on by Nintendo Revolution.
It will be interesting to see what Revolution will include. If it's Blue-Ray, we have a winner...
I think that the format war is pretty much finished. We're just waiting for the de facto winner. While Xbox looks good, it will be squashed by PS3 and later on by Nintendo Revolution.
It will be interesting to see what Revolution will include. If it's Blue-Ray, we have a winner...
I just came off the ARs thread about the Sony/MS thing. Talk about nutty
Why don't you read some posts? There have been good reasons why not.
I did read the thread, and still think it's a good idea.
<ramble>
Apple had OSX Intel for some time. Who's to say that they didn't have a working (even partially) version for Cell to check wether they would use it or not? IBM would have certainly given Apple (one of the co-designers of PPC) a bit of notice that Cell was on it's way.
It all depends on how much time Apple is prepared to spend on such projects. They've had OSX Intel for 5 years running the same build as the PPC.
Yes this could (if it is even remotely on the cards) cut into their real low end sales, but for someone who needs a general purpose computer with a couple of monitors attached with a nice amount of drive and RAM, ofcourse a single tasking PS3 would not be an option. Someone who wants to play games and surf the web it would be fine.
Apple would get a dollar amount per unit sold. If it's $15 (like some embedded OS vendors) then it's $15,000,000 for every million units, $150,000,000 for every 10 million. Consoles sell in the many millions, if Apple had $15 for each PS2 sold they'd have an extra $1,374,300,000 ( 91.62 million PS2 units worldwide as of 20 July, c|net). Not a small amount of money, but probably not a business unit's worth either. Factor in a small group of people working on this (engineers and liasons for sony and thirdparty developers for example) and you're looking at a tidy sum for not too much effort, imho!
Factor in the extra exposure, an extra factor of coolness, more developers learning about our chosen OS, and yet more "halo-effect" for Apple computers then it looks pretty good.
And if the PS3 is going to be an expensive unit as they keep saying, well maybe Apple could get more than $15/unit?
</ramble>
If, and it's a pretty big 'if', this is true then we're in for a few exciting years!
I did read the thread, and still think it's a good idea.
<ramble>
Apple had OSX Intel for some time. Who's to say that they didn't have a working (even partially) version for Cell to check wether they would use it or not? IBM would have certainly given Apple (one of the co-designers of PPC) a bit of notice that Cell was on it's way.
It all depends on how much time Apple is prepared to spend on such projects. They've had OSX Intel for 5 years running the same build as the PPC.
Yes this could (if it is even remotely on the cards) cut into their real low end sales, but for someone who needs a general purpose computer with a couple of monitors attached with a nice amount of drive and RAM, ofcourse a single tasking PS3 would not be an option. Someone who wants to play games and surf the web it would be fine.
Apple would get a dollar amount per unit sold. If it's $15 (like some embedded OS vendors) then it's $15,000,000 for every million units, $150,000,000 for every 10 million. Consoles sell in the many millions, if Apple had $15 for each PS2 sold they'd have an extra $1,374,300,000 ( 91.62 million PS2 units worldwide as of 20 July, c|net). Not a small amount of money, but probably not a business unit's worth either. Factor in a small group of people working on this (engineers and liasons for sony and thirdparty developers for example) and you're looking at a tidy sum for not too much effort, imho!
Factor in the extra exposure, an extra factor of coolness, more developers learning about our chosen OS, and yet more "halo-effect" for Apple computers then it looks pretty good.
And if the PS3 is going to be an expensive unit as they keep saying, well maybe Apple could get more than $15/unit?
</ramble>
If, and it's a pretty big 'if', this is true then we're in for a few exciting years!
Add salt.
Boy, are you reaching. Sony just makes a profit on these things. You really think they want to share it? You're making up numbers like you know what it would be worth. But you don't.
Sony has its own OS. That's what it will use. When vendors don't have their own they use Linux. Why? So that they DON'T have to pay a fee.
Some people dream big. Just remember that it's just your dream. And when you wake up...
XNU's Mach component is based on Mach 3.0, although it's not used as a microkernel.
When compared to Linux or Windows, it certainly qualifies as a microkernel. Being a feature-rich desktop OS, I'm not entirely sure it's possible to realistically implement a true microkernel. Beyond that, Linus is a smart guy with some great accomplishments, but he's not infallible, or even necessarily "right most of the time." If he were, Transmeta might not be a big mass of hot air.
But I don't want to sound like I don't respect the guy. Linux is a great thing, and it has been hacked into many different forms, but ultimately I think Darwin, XNU, or whatever you want to call it is actually a better foundation for embeddeded application than is Linux. Of course, given the amount of development on the subject it's a lot easier to deal with embedded Linux than it might be to embed Darwin.
When compared to Linux or Windows, it certainly qualifies as a microkernel. Being a feature-rich desktop OS, I'm not entirely sure it's possible to realistically implement a true microkernel. Beyond that, Linus is a smart guy with some great accomplishments, but he's not infallible, or even necessarily "right most of the time." If he were, Transmeta might not be a big mass of hot air.
But I don't want to sound like I don't respect the guy. Linux is a great thing, and it has been hacked into many different forms, but ultimately I think Darwin, XNU, or whatever you want to call it is actually a better foundation for embeddeded application than is Linux. Of course, given the amount of development on the subject it's a lot easier to deal with embedded Linux than it might be to embed Darwin.
Linux got great early free press, and that helped to catapult it to where it is today. There are other UNIX derivitives that are actually better in many ways, as well as being less messy. But it was new, and free, and pushed as being unique. It went from there. Thr BSD's are considered to be cleaner though.
Man, my daydreaming the other day about itunes/iphoto supported on the psp mightn't be too crazy. Imagine having these intergrated into your console as well, playlists from itunes in games, iphoto in, um, iphoto.. on a games machine...
yeah, not that great, but itunes for music and movies on the ps3 & psp would be awesome!
Boy, are you reaching. Sony just makes a profit on these things. You really think they want to share it? You're making up numbers like you know what it would be worth. But you don't.
Sony has its own OS. That's what it will use. When vendors don't have their own they use Linux. Why? So that they DON'T have to pay a fee.
Some people dream big. Just remember that it's just your dream. And when you wake up...
We pay pay that kind of royalty on an embedded OS. We pay the fee for all sorts of corporate support reasons for a well known OS with a long track record, with experienced paid engineers reacting to our problems. I understand that paid doesn't always mean good.
Yeah I don't think this is gonna happen. It just makes no sense at all.
SOMETHING is going to have to happen between Apple and Sony. They are bickering over iTunesMS Japan and someone is going to have to blink. Maybe giving into FairPlay is worth installing OSX on PS3's! I'd do it. Apple needs to open up iTunes someday and you might as well get something for it now.
It has a microkernel and a generally more "real-time" behavior.
So? Having a microkernel does not mean it's better. Darwin is OK, but it's in no way comparable to Linux/*BSD.
That's why noone uses it. Not even hobbyists. It's alive only because Apple wants to keep it alive. As opposed to Linux and *BSD that are kept alive by... users.
And I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "real-time" behavior.
When compared to Linux or Windows, it certainly qualifies as a microkernel. Being a feature-rich desktop OS, I'm not entirely sure it's possible to realistically implement a true microkernel. Beyond that, Linus is a smart guy with some great accomplishments, but he's not infallible, or even necessarily "right most of the time." If he were, Transmeta might not be a big mass of hot air.
You are confusing Linux with Linus. They're not one and the same. While it is true that Linus (Torvalds) wrote Linux, the kernel, it is also true that today, as a result of years of work on the project, it is estimated that only about 2% of the kernel remains his original work. The rest is re-written, much by people around him, and some by people employed by IBM, HP, Intel, etc.
Well, something seems to be going on between Apple and Sony.
Don't you guys remember the last big keynote address, where Ken Kutaragi, President of Sony, came onstage and started rambling about how Apple and Sony hoped to work together, and it looked almost as if Steve was about to give the cut-off sign as if he were about to give away something?
Maybe this is that thing.. maybe Steve is blindsiding us all again.. after the Intel keynote, I could believe almost anything of Apple..
We pay pay that kind of royalty on an embedded OS. We pay the fee for all sorts of corporate support reasons for a well known OS with a long track record, with experienced paid engineers reacting to our problems. I understand that paid doesn't always mean good.
Embedded OS's are completely different from general purpose OS's. One area of difference is the amount of code. An embedded OS might have 5% of the code of an OS X or an XP. They are also operation specific: Control that engine, control that film processor, etc. I've had several on my machines over the years.
If Apple would license X to Sony, they would ask for more than that, perhaps as much as MS gets for XP, around $35-45.
PS2 sales were about 20 million units a year; pretty good. With the high price being asked for this, it might not sell more than half that. At least until they lower the price substantially. They they couldn't afford to pay for the OS.
Embedded OS's are completely different from general purpose OS's. One area of difference is the amount of code. An embedded OS might have 5% of the code of an OS X or an XP. They are also operation specific: Control that engine, control that film processor, etc. I've had several on my machines over the years.
If Apple would license X to Sony, they would ask for more than that, perhaps as much as MS gets for XP, around $35-45.
PS2 sales were about 20 million units a year; pretty good. With the high price being asked for this, it might not sell more than half that. At least until they lower the price substantially. They they couldn't afford to pay for the OS.
So how hard would it be to run Apple widgets on PSP ... the embedded os and graphics engine just need to run java/html and something that emulates QE?
Comments
Originally posted by Gene Clean
It's their way to win the format war.
If they can sell 10 million or so the first year, it sure will help. right now MS doesn't seem to know what it wants to do, or when it will do it as far as HD-DVD goes.
Originally posted by melgross
If they can sell 10 million or so the first year, it sure will help. right now MS doesn't seem to know what it wants to do, or when it will do it as far as HD-DVD goes.
I think that the format war is pretty much finished. We're just waiting for the de facto winner. While Xbox looks good, it will be squashed by PS3 and later on by Nintendo Revolution.
It will be interesting to see what Revolution will include. If it's Blue-Ray, we have a winner...
Originally posted by Gene Clean
I think that the format war is pretty much finished. We're just waiting for the de facto winner. While Xbox looks good, it will be squashed by PS3 and later on by Nintendo Revolution.
It will be interesting to see what Revolution will include. If it's Blue-Ray, we have a winner...
I just came off the ARs thread about the Sony/MS thing. Talk about nutty
Originally posted by Kickaha
Didn't Sony just shut down its online music store?
Where did you hear that?
Originally posted by melgross
Why don't you read some posts? There have been good reasons why not.
I did read the thread, and still think it's a good idea.
<ramble>
Apple had OSX Intel for some time. Who's to say that they didn't have a working (even partially) version for Cell to check wether they would use it or not? IBM would have certainly given Apple (one of the co-designers of PPC) a bit of notice that Cell was on it's way.
It all depends on how much time Apple is prepared to spend on such projects. They've had OSX Intel for 5 years running the same build as the PPC.
Yes this could (if it is even remotely on the cards) cut into their real low end sales, but for someone who needs a general purpose computer with a couple of monitors attached with a nice amount of drive and RAM, ofcourse a single tasking PS3 would not be an option. Someone who wants to play games and surf the web it would be fine.
Apple would get a dollar amount per unit sold. If it's $15 (like some embedded OS vendors) then it's $15,000,000 for every million units, $150,000,000 for every 10 million. Consoles sell in the many millions, if Apple had $15 for each PS2 sold they'd have an extra $1,374,300,000 ( 91.62 million PS2 units worldwide as of 20 July, c|net). Not a small amount of money, but probably not a business unit's worth either. Factor in a small group of people working on this (engineers and liasons for sony and thirdparty developers for example) and you're looking at a tidy sum for not too much effort, imho!
Factor in the extra exposure, an extra factor of coolness, more developers learning about our chosen OS, and yet more "halo-effect" for Apple computers then it looks pretty good.
And if the PS3 is going to be an expensive unit as they keep saying, well maybe Apple could get more than $15/unit?
</ramble>
If, and it's a pretty big 'if', this is true then we're in for a few exciting years!
Add salt.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Such as?
It has a microkernel and a generally more "real-time" behavior.
Originally posted by switch_hmg
I did read the thread, and still think it's a good idea.
<ramble>
Apple had OSX Intel for some time. Who's to say that they didn't have a working (even partially) version for Cell to check wether they would use it or not? IBM would have certainly given Apple (one of the co-designers of PPC) a bit of notice that Cell was on it's way.
It all depends on how much time Apple is prepared to spend on such projects. They've had OSX Intel for 5 years running the same build as the PPC.
Yes this could (if it is even remotely on the cards) cut into their real low end sales, but for someone who needs a general purpose computer with a couple of monitors attached with a nice amount of drive and RAM, ofcourse a single tasking PS3 would not be an option. Someone who wants to play games and surf the web it would be fine.
Apple would get a dollar amount per unit sold. If it's $15 (like some embedded OS vendors) then it's $15,000,000 for every million units, $150,000,000 for every 10 million. Consoles sell in the many millions, if Apple had $15 for each PS2 sold they'd have an extra $1,374,300,000 ( 91.62 million PS2 units worldwide as of 20 July, c|net). Not a small amount of money, but probably not a business unit's worth either. Factor in a small group of people working on this (engineers and liasons for sony and thirdparty developers for example) and you're looking at a tidy sum for not too much effort, imho!
Factor in the extra exposure, an extra factor of coolness, more developers learning about our chosen OS, and yet more "halo-effect" for Apple computers then it looks pretty good.
And if the PS3 is going to be an expensive unit as they keep saying, well maybe Apple could get more than $15/unit?
</ramble>
If, and it's a pretty big 'if', this is true then we're in for a few exciting years!
Add salt.
Boy, are you reaching. Sony just makes a profit on these things. You really think they want to share it? You're making up numbers like you know what it would be worth. But you don't.
Sony has its own OS. That's what it will use. When vendors don't have their own they use Linux. Why? So that they DON'T have to pay a fee.
Some people dream big. Just remember that it's just your dream. And when you wake up...
Originally posted by JLL
Where did you hear that?
I could have *SWORN* it was a big news about a month ago, but actually heading to the Sony Connect site... well, it's still up. Bugger. Nevermind.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
It has a microkernel
From XNU: The Kernel:
XNU's Mach component is based on Mach 3.0, although it's not used as a microkernel.
See Mach kernel obsolete? (et.al.) for some discussion about this.
Originally posted by sjk
XNU's Mach component is based on Mach 3.0, although it's not used as a microkernel.
When compared to Linux or Windows, it certainly qualifies as a microkernel. Being a feature-rich desktop OS, I'm not entirely sure it's possible to realistically implement a true microkernel. Beyond that, Linus is a smart guy with some great accomplishments, but he's not infallible, or even necessarily "right most of the time." If he were, Transmeta might not be a big mass of hot air.
But I don't want to sound like I don't respect the guy. Linux is a great thing, and it has been hacked into many different forms, but ultimately I think Darwin, XNU, or whatever you want to call it is actually a better foundation for embeddeded application than is Linux. Of course, given the amount of development on the subject it's a lot easier to deal with embedded Linux than it might be to embed Darwin.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
When compared to Linux or Windows, it certainly qualifies as a microkernel. Being a feature-rich desktop OS, I'm not entirely sure it's possible to realistically implement a true microkernel. Beyond that, Linus is a smart guy with some great accomplishments, but he's not infallible, or even necessarily "right most of the time." If he were, Transmeta might not be a big mass of hot air.
But I don't want to sound like I don't respect the guy. Linux is a great thing, and it has been hacked into many different forms, but ultimately I think Darwin, XNU, or whatever you want to call it is actually a better foundation for embeddeded application than is Linux. Of course, given the amount of development on the subject it's a lot easier to deal with embedded Linux than it might be to embed Darwin.
Linux got great early free press, and that helped to catapult it to where it is today. There are other UNIX derivitives that are actually better in many ways, as well as being less messy. But it was new, and free, and pushed as being unique. It went from there. Thr BSD's are considered to be cleaner though.
yeah, not that great, but itunes for music and movies on the ps3 & psp would be awesome!
</ENDDAYDREAM>
Originally posted by melgross
Boy, are you reaching. Sony just makes a profit on these things. You really think they want to share it? You're making up numbers like you know what it would be worth. But you don't.
Sony has its own OS. That's what it will use. When vendors don't have their own they use Linux. Why? So that they DON'T have to pay a fee.
Some people dream big. Just remember that it's just your dream. And when you wake up...
We pay pay that kind of royalty on an embedded OS. We pay the fee for all sorts of corporate support reasons for a well known OS with a long track record, with experienced paid engineers reacting to our problems. I understand that paid doesn't always mean good.
The PS2 unit sales were reported here: http://cnet.com.au/games/ps2/soa/Son...0056080,00.htm
Reaching? Perhaps, but it's FUN!
enjoy!
Originally posted by baranovich
Yeah I don't think this is gonna happen. It just makes no sense at all.
SOMETHING is going to have to happen between Apple and Sony. They are bickering over iTunesMS Japan and someone is going to have to blink. Maybe giving into FairPlay is worth installing OSX on PS3's! I'd do it. Apple needs to open up iTunes someday and you might as well get something for it now.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
It has a microkernel and a generally more "real-time" behavior.
So? Having a microkernel does not mean it's better. Darwin is OK, but it's in no way comparable to Linux/*BSD.
That's why noone uses it. Not even hobbyists. It's alive only because Apple wants to keep it alive. As opposed to Linux and *BSD that are kept alive by... users.
And I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "real-time" behavior.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
When compared to Linux or Windows, it certainly qualifies as a microkernel. Being a feature-rich desktop OS, I'm not entirely sure it's possible to realistically implement a true microkernel. Beyond that, Linus is a smart guy with some great accomplishments, but he's not infallible, or even necessarily "right most of the time." If he were, Transmeta might not be a big mass of hot air.
You are confusing Linux with Linus. They're not one and the same. While it is true that Linus (Torvalds) wrote Linux, the kernel, it is also true that today, as a result of years of work on the project, it is estimated that only about 2% of the kernel remains his original work. The rest is re-written, much by people around him, and some by people employed by IBM, HP, Intel, etc.
Linus != Linux.
Even if you did manage to hack Darwin to run on a machine without OF, it would run like CRAP!
1) The processor isn't designed for general purpose computing.
2) No accelerated 3D would be supported or engineered by anyone.
3) No other form of acceleration would be likely, like using the SPEs or whatever.
4) Only 256MB RAM. Didn't we go through this crap with the old Mini specs? It isn't enough!
Come on guys, use your noodle!
Don't you guys remember the last big keynote address, where Ken Kutaragi, President of Sony, came onstage and started rambling about how Apple and Sony hoped to work together, and it looked almost as if Steve was about to give the cut-off sign as if he were about to give away something?
Maybe this is that thing.. maybe Steve is blindsiding us all again.. after the Intel keynote, I could believe almost anything of Apple..
Originally posted by switch_hmg
We pay pay that kind of royalty on an embedded OS. We pay the fee for all sorts of corporate support reasons for a well known OS with a long track record, with experienced paid engineers reacting to our problems. I understand that paid doesn't always mean good.
The PS2 unit sales were reported here: http://cnet.com.au/games/ps2/soa/Son...0056080,00.htm
Reaching? Perhaps, but it's FUN!
enjoy!
Embedded OS's are completely different from general purpose OS's. One area of difference is the amount of code. An embedded OS might have 5% of the code of an OS X or an XP. They are also operation specific: Control that engine, control that film processor, etc. I've had several on my machines over the years.
If Apple would license X to Sony, they would ask for more than that, perhaps as much as MS gets for XP, around $35-45.
PS2 sales were about 20 million units a year; pretty good. With the high price being asked for this, it might not sell more than half that. At least until they lower the price substantially. They they couldn't afford to pay for the OS.
Originally posted by melgross
Embedded OS's are completely different from general purpose OS's. One area of difference is the amount of code. An embedded OS might have 5% of the code of an OS X or an XP. They are also operation specific: Control that engine, control that film processor, etc. I've had several on my machines over the years.
If Apple would license X to Sony, they would ask for more than that, perhaps as much as MS gets for XP, around $35-45.
PS2 sales were about 20 million units a year; pretty good. With the high price being asked for this, it might not sell more than half that. At least until they lower the price substantially. They they couldn't afford to pay for the OS.
So how hard would it be to run Apple widgets on PSP ... the embedded os and graphics engine just need to run java/html and something that emulates QE?