You're making a bit much of a very small number of people who "would have died anyway."
I felt it was prudent to have some sort of legitimate figure on how many people pass away without a disastrous hurricane coming through. Now we have perspective. We've concluded that no matter how low or high the body count, a "very small number" of them would have passed away anyway. It reinforces the premise that the staggering numbers we're about to see are arguably due to Katrina and her aftermath.
intelligent discussion doesn't include his long winded rants
Far, far worse, however, are rants like yours that are simply personal attacks and have nothing to do with the thread topic.
Shawn's expressing his view of the discussion of the daily death rates on the death toll. I think CosmoNut's point about accounting for the daily death rate is an very interesting one that helps us understand how this event impacts the people. We all have different views, but, unlike your personal attack, they are all on topic.
Far, far worse, however, are rants like yours that are simply personal attacks and have nothing to do with the thread topic.
Shawn's expressing his view of the discussion of the daily death rates on the death toll. I think CosmoNut's point about accounting for the daily death rate is an very interesting one that helps us understand how this event impacts the people. We all have different views, but, unlike your personal attack, they are all on topic.
Your reasoning that pointing out a personal attack is in fact a personal attack defies all logic.
Cosmo has already replied but the premise he brought up is a good one and shows the cluelessness of Shawn's "motive" attack.
Something within our culture has taken death and made it an unnatural state. Death is a natural occurance and so are natural disasters. The debate about what degree of these deaths were natural and what degree are preventable will probably never end or be objectively resolvable. However that doesn't excuse the fact that pointing out that these natural things take place is proof of some sort of malicious "motive" is just a personal attack covering weak and irrational reasoning.
After checking there is an agreement saying that the normal death toll, will have a very small influence in the death toll.
Yeah. So far very little has been released as far as a good estimate of the total number killed. That may take some time, so this thread may go on for a while.
The Bush admin has begun to throw a media cordon around the disaster area, just as they have done in Iraq. The order has gone out: no pictures of bodies.
It's part of the basic Rove strategy. Get the president on TV "looking presidential" in tightly scripted and art directed tableau (shirt sleeves, check, firemen, check, hugging a black person, check, in front of military hardware, check).
But they must also control the pictures the president isn't in: the ones that might link the president in people's minds to bad shit.
What they absolutely don't want, and won't allow to be reported, is any instance where the circumstances of a death make clear that a more timely response might have made a difference. I guarantee you will see no reports from the scene that have this grim fact in play.
Further, ala the fuzzed up math of Iraq, once you control access to the area you can say whatever you want about what happened, is happening, should have happened, etc.
There was a time when my line of thought here might have been thought shockingly cynical but that time is gone. Anyone who isn't a fool knows precisely how far the Bush admin will go to control the message.
Oh, and in case you think I'm making this up: (via the Washington Monthly)
Reuters: "The U.S. agency leading Hurricane Katrina rescue efforts said Tuesday that it does not want the news media to photograph the dead as they are recovered."
Bob Brigham: "We are in Jefferson Parish, just outside of New Orleans. At the National Guard checkpoint, they are under orders to turn away all media. All of the reporters are turning they?re TV trucks around."
Salt Lake Tribune: "'[FEMA has] people here who are search-and-rescue certified, paramedics, haz-mat certified,' said a Texas firefighter. 'We're sitting in here having a sexual-harassment class while there are still [victims] in Louisiana who haven't been contacted yet.' The firefighter, who has encouraged his superiors back home not to send any more volunteers for now, declined to give his name because FEMA has warned them not to talk to reporters."
Brian Williams, NBC News: "While we were attempting to take pictures of the National Guard (a unit from Oklahoma) taking up positions outside a Brooks Brothers on the edge of the Quarter, the sergeant ordered us to the other side of the boulevard. The short version is: there won't be any pictures of this particular group of guard soldiers on our newscast tonight."
Naturally, it's all because the filthy media jackals would just get in the way of FEMA's good works.
Perhaps not photographing the dead is out of respect for the dead?
If you can recocnize the dead certainly.
If not, it's a good question. In a photographic forum, there was a thread about this subject some months ago (about a photo of a dead african). Some people say that the truth should not be hided, even if the pic was shocking, others said that it was not respectefull for the dead, and was a sort of voyeurism.
It's also important to note the numerous moves made by FEMA in an attempt to give the agency good press, even before it was getting this horrible press. In fact, it appears that FEMA may have put more evergy in PR than saving lives from the beginning. Therefore, in the context of FEMA's actions over the past week and a half, the order is far from benign.
Perhaps not photographing the dead is out of respect for the dead?
We're not talking about gristly snuff pictures for the Post. We're talking about access for reporters so they can report what's going on in the disaster area.
But I know you'll have another reason (other than the obvious true one) for why that is perfectly reasonable.
Elephant over stars and stripes, and now over all human decency, logic, truth, pragmatism, results, justice or history.
"Elephant over stars and stripes, and now over all human decency, logic, truth, pragmatism, results, justice or history."
Huh?
The American people know how bad this situation is. We know thousands of people are dead. We know hundreds of thousands are homeless. We have responded to this tragedy with unprecedented donations of money and goods and time. What is being hidden from us? We get it.
The Bush admin has begun to throw a media cordon around the disaster area, just as they have done in Iraq. The order has gone out: no pictures of bodies.
Yes, because we all can easily follow the logic that someone isn't truly dead until you can take a picture of their body.
I'm sure whoever is blamed politically will get off easy because a headline that reads 20,000 dead won't have any impact unless we see a decaying corpse. I mean a picture of the gravesite, or grave markers, or grieving families would have absolutely NO impact.
Quote:
What they absolutely don't want, and won't allow to be reported, is any instance where the circumstances of a death make clear that a more timely response might have made a difference. I guarantee you will see no reports from the scene that have this grim fact in play.
Yeah we wouldn't understand why someone would care to prevent your form of fuzzy logic. It is the same sort of nonsense that had the NAACP running ads where Bush was responsible for the dragging death of a black man in his state. It is the same sort of logic that has ads where Bush is a Nazi or is shown throwing old women off cliffs.
No one can understand why someone would care to avoid letting people play politics with the dead by using your wonderful brand of logical leaps.
Our Beauracracy failed big time. Borders, Wars,Patriot act,Homeland Security. Everyday the Libertarian party looks better,also keeping power at the State level seems better then having the Congressional Clowns and the latest President F it all up. Lets face it these are stooges for the special Interest who feed the populas enough commercials until they buy the spin. Heck we bought Bush for another 4
Comments
Originally posted by ShawnJ
You're making a bit much of a very small number of people who "would have died anyway."
I felt it was prudent to have some sort of legitimate figure on how many people pass away without a disastrous hurricane coming through. Now we have perspective. We've concluded that no matter how low or high the body count, a "very small number" of them would have passed away anyway. It reinforces the premise that the staggering numbers we're about to see are arguably due to Katrina and her aftermath.
Originally posted by trumptman
intelligent discussion doesn't include his long winded rants
Far, far worse, however, are rants like yours that are simply personal attacks and have nothing to do with the thread topic.
Shawn's expressing his view of the discussion of the daily death rates on the death toll. I think CosmoNut's point about accounting for the daily death rate is an very interesting one that helps us understand how this event impacts the people. We all have different views, but, unlike your personal attack, they are all on topic.
Originally posted by giant
Far, far worse, however, are rants like yours that are simply personal attacks and have nothing to do with the thread topic.
Shawn's expressing his view of the discussion of the daily death rates on the death toll. I think CosmoNut's point about accounting for the daily death rate is an very interesting one that helps us understand how this event impacts the people. We all have different views, but, unlike your personal attack, they are all on topic.
Your reasoning that pointing out a personal attack is in fact a personal attack defies all logic.
Cosmo has already replied but the premise he brought up is a good one and shows the cluelessness of Shawn's "motive" attack.
Something within our culture has taken death and made it an unnatural state. Death is a natural occurance and so are natural disasters. The debate about what degree of these deaths were natural and what degree are preventable will probably never end or be objectively resolvable. However that doesn't excuse the fact that pointing out that these natural things take place is proof of some sort of malicious "motive" is just a personal attack covering weak and irrational reasoning.
Nick
Originally posted by Powerdoc
After checking there is an agreement saying that the normal death toll, will have a very small influence in the death toll.
Yeah. So far very little has been released as far as a good estimate of the total number killed. That may take some time, so this thread may go on for a while.
*twiddles thumbs*
Debate
Infight
Blame
Fingerpoint
Do nothing
The Bush admin has begun to throw a media cordon around the disaster area, just as they have done in Iraq. The order has gone out: no pictures of bodies.
It's part of the basic Rove strategy. Get the president on TV "looking presidential" in tightly scripted and art directed tableau (shirt sleeves, check, firemen, check, hugging a black person, check, in front of military hardware, check).
But they must also control the pictures the president isn't in: the ones that might link the president in people's minds to bad shit.
What they absolutely don't want, and won't allow to be reported, is any instance where the circumstances of a death make clear that a more timely response might have made a difference. I guarantee you will see no reports from the scene that have this grim fact in play.
Further, ala the fuzzed up math of Iraq, once you control access to the area you can say whatever you want about what happened, is happening, should have happened, etc.
There was a time when my line of thought here might have been thought shockingly cynical but that time is gone. Anyone who isn't a fool knows precisely how far the Bush admin will go to control the message.
In fact, it's all they're good at.
Reuters: "The U.S. agency leading Hurricane Katrina rescue efforts said Tuesday that it does not want the news media to photograph the dead as they are recovered."
Bob Brigham: "We are in Jefferson Parish, just outside of New Orleans. At the National Guard checkpoint, they are under orders to turn away all media. All of the reporters are turning they?re TV trucks around."
Salt Lake Tribune: "'[FEMA has] people here who are search-and-rescue certified, paramedics, haz-mat certified,' said a Texas firefighter. 'We're sitting in here having a sexual-harassment class while there are still [victims] in Louisiana who haven't been contacted yet.' The firefighter, who has encouraged his superiors back home not to send any more volunteers for now, declined to give his name because FEMA has warned them not to talk to reporters."
Brian Williams, NBC News: "While we were attempting to take pictures of the National Guard (a unit from Oklahoma) taking up positions outside a Brooks Brothers on the edge of the Quarter, the sergeant ordered us to the other side of the boulevard. The short version is: there won't be any pictures of this particular group of guard soldiers on our newscast tonight."
Naturally, it's all because the filthy media jackals would just get in the way of FEMA's good works.
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Perhaps not photographing the dead is out of respect for the dead?
If you can recocnize the dead certainly.
If not, it's a good question. In a photographic forum, there was a thread about this subject some months ago (about a photo of a dead african). Some people say that the truth should not be hided, even if the pic was shocking, others said that it was not respectefull for the dead, and was a sort of voyeurism.
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Perhaps not photographing the dead is out of respect for the dead?
We're not talking about gristly snuff pictures for the Post. We're talking about access for reporters so they can report what's going on in the disaster area.
But I know you'll have another reason (other than the obvious true one) for why that is perfectly reasonable.
Elephant over stars and stripes, and now over all human decency, logic, truth, pragmatism, results, justice or history.
Huh?
The American people know how bad this situation is. We know thousands of people are dead. We know hundreds of thousands are homeless. We have responded to this tragedy with unprecedented donations of money and goods and time. What is being hidden from us? We get it.
Originally posted by addabox
We may never know the actual death toll in NO.
The Bush admin has begun to throw a media cordon around the disaster area, just as they have done in Iraq. The order has gone out: no pictures of bodies.
Yes, because we all can easily follow the logic that someone isn't truly dead until you can take a picture of their body.
I'm sure whoever is blamed politically will get off easy because a headline that reads 20,000 dead won't have any impact unless we see a decaying corpse. I mean a picture of the gravesite, or grave markers, or grieving families would have absolutely NO impact.
What they absolutely don't want, and won't allow to be reported, is any instance where the circumstances of a death make clear that a more timely response might have made a difference. I guarantee you will see no reports from the scene that have this grim fact in play.
Yeah we wouldn't understand why someone would care to prevent your form of fuzzy logic. It is the same sort of nonsense that had the NAACP running ads where Bush was responsible for the dragging death of a black man in his state. It is the same sort of logic that has ads where Bush is a Nazi or is shown throwing old women off cliffs.
No one can understand why someone would care to avoid letting people play politics with the dead by using your wonderful brand of logical leaps.
You are one sick puppy.
Nick
No one needs a picture of that.
Originally posted by addabox
Naturally, it's all because the filthy media jackals would just get in the way of FEMA's good works.
Well actually, yeah.
A report said that 30 people were found dead in a nursing home. Many of them were in their wheelchairs, abandoned by the workers there.
No one needs a picture of that.
I think pictures are exactly what is needed to drive home to the American people what has happened.
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Well actually, yeah.
That's demonstratably false in this case.