...unfortunately, this implies 480p rather than hi-definition,
but apple can spin this, as it is at least as good as dvd.
...besides, every mac sold can do h.264 at 480p via 1.25 ghz
g4 or better, and has either vga or dvi output to serve most
living room scenarios.
i would have to agree, 720p h.264 downloads would be quite revolutionary, i don't think movie studios would commit to this, not yet, unless steve has seriously worked some magic. we'll see.
but 480p h.264 downloads playable on a wide range of macs and possibly an iPod video would be great, marketing spin would be "DVD quality movies at one third the size of a DVD" ~ downloaded right to your computer, synced with your video iPod
something tells me though that this is not quite there yet. next year maybe, with 720p or 1080p fullblown HD downloads for mac-based hometheatre stuff, 480p for ipod video stuff.
hmmm.... speculation runs deep and wild at this stage, i'm feeling lost. damn iSteve and his tricks for drumming up hype and mystery!!!!!
A full movie at 720p, even with H.264 wouldn't come close to fitting on an iPod. If it did, the compression would be so high that you wouldn't want it anyway.
hi mel, meoww!! i thought you were kinda serious when you said "the ds does wireless?"
re: 720p HD on an iPod.
no worries according to my calculations
lets take a 120minute movie. 120 x 60 = 7200 seconds per movie
bitrates for h.264. apple has demonstrated decent quality at
6megabits/second to say 10megabits/sec for 1280x720
6 megabits/second for 7200 seconds conservatively approx. to say 6GB
10 megabits/second for 7200 seconds conservatively approx. to say 10GB
thus, it is possible, using those fantastic base 10 calculations (1,000, 10,000 songs in your pocket etc. etc..) for apple to say:
10 High Definition Movies. In Your Pocket.
The new 100gb iPod VideoHD.
you know that between 6megabits/second and 10megabits/second, for 10 720p 120min movies, say including AAC-encoded 5.1 channel surround or whatever 5.1 surround encoding as per mpeg4 standards, 80gb seems to be the sweet spot here since 100gb drives might be pretty expensive.
given the math above and encoding between 6megabits/sec and 10megabits/sec and the fact that a movie on average is less than a full two hours long, apple could very reasonably market a 80gb iPod Video HiDef as "10 HiDefinition movies. In your pocket."
80gb iPod HiDefinition Edition
[10 HDTV movies] OR [20,000 songs] OR [5 HDTV movies + 10,000 songs]
A full movie at 720p, even with H.264 wouldn't come close to fitting on an iPod. If it did, the compression would be so high that you wouldn't want it anyway.
Are you crazy? I can record the stream from a 1/2 hr tv show on 2 gb of space. If I can do that at regular TV resolution, what's to keep me from doing the same for a movie, boosting the storage required to 8 gigs? And that's uncompressed.
I hope you've paid enough attention to the iPod market to notice that iPods can hold up to 60 GB of data?
Besides - has ANYBODY noticed that Apple has been allowing you to view music videos on the ITMS for at least the last 6 months? So what's the automatic assumption about iPod video and what you'll be able to buy to play on it? Music Videos! WOW! Huge surprise! Sell 'em for five bucks each and they'll start making money on ITMS, I think.8)
[10 HDTV movies] OR [20,000 songs] OR [5 HDTV movies + 10,000 songs]
Well you work under that they will use 6-10mbits/s. Based on their HD movies on the QT pages this is true. However this is like Apple basing all their song amounts on lossless quality audio.
I can certainly compress a 704x400 DVD stream (from an episode of 24) at 1100kbps. To get to that figure I do a calculation recommended on the HandBrake forums:
Number of pixels * Frames per second * 0.16 = bits per second
704*400*25*0.16 = 1,126,400bps or 1100kbps. This runs at ~484MiB/hour for video.
This gives a perfectly acceptable picture. So on a 1280x720 movie:
1280*720*25*0.16 = 3686400 or 3600kbps. 1582MiB/hour or 1.55GiB/hour for video.
This should give the same quality results as my DVD copies using handbrake. In the past Apple has based its recomendations on lossy (128 AAC) formats, they could do the same game here...
125hours of DVD quality with 5.1 audio* on 80GB or 46hours of HD video with 5.1 audio.
*2 channel 128kbps AAC is 56.25MiB/hour thus 5.1 would be 168.75MiB/hour.
Are you crazy? I can record the stream from a 1/2 hr tv show on 2 gb of space. If I can do that at regular TV resolution, what's to keep me from doing the same for a movie, boosting the storage required to 8 gigs? And that's uncompressed.
I hope you've paid enough attention to the iPod market to notice that iPods can hold up to 60 GB of data?
Besides - has ANYBODY noticed that Apple has been allowing you to view music videos on the ITMS for at least the last 6 months? So what's the automatic assumption about iPod video and what you'll be able to buy to play on it? Music Videos! WOW! Huge surprise! Sell 'em for five bucks each and they'll start making money on ITMS, I think.8)
You can download HDTV copies of TV episodes (38 minutes) at 350MB each (xvid/divx).
whoa chill peoples. 350mb divx are ripped from HDTV sources but the final files of bittorrent are NOT HDTV. these divx/xvid rippers also usually recompress the 5.1 surround audio into 2 channel audio.
but yeah, it does look like it is very possible, taking 6-10megabits/sec as the bitrate for high-quality, up-to-apple-standards, h.264 1280x720 video with 5.1channel audio, to fit about 10 HiDef movies on a 60-80gb iPodVideo if such a thing comes out.
a HDTV final movie output at 1280x720 24fps (720-24p), i agree, you could push the bitrate for h.264 compression down to 2-3 megabit per second but quality below 5 megabit/sec for 1280x720 resolution would be pretty crappy. i reckon in general, commercially released 720p stuff encoded in h.264 will not be pushed below 5 megabit/sec at a bare minimum.
below that, it's more of a divx-type visual experience which would not come up to the full fun and enjoyment of 720p HDTV especially on big screens or 1280x1024/ 1280x960 computer LCDs.
whoa chill peoples. 350mb divx are ripped from HDTV sources but the final files of bittorrent are NOT HDTV. these divx/xvid rippers also usually recompress the 5.1 surround audio into 2 channel audio.
but yeah, it does look like it is very possible, taking 6-10megabits/sec as the bitrate for high-quality, up-to-apple-standards, h.264 1280x720 video with 5.1channel audio, to fit about 10 HiDef movies on a 60-80gb iPodVideo if such a thing comes out.
Nobody said it was. I was referring to a file resulting from saving video from a video box feeding cable to a Mac. That is definately NOT hdtv standard, but it serves to allow me to watch a tv show on the run during an hour commute using a vPod (when they come out!) instead of when the networks want me to.
AND, due to the Fair Use provisions, its legal, providing I don't send that copy to Aunt Emma. (or anybody else)
rwahrens... yeah, fair enough... let's say you can download and purchase high quality h.264 720p HDTV of an apple movie store, recompressing that into smaller nuggets for on-the-go vPodding will be cool. just like how if you have apple lossless audio files on your Mac or PC when you autofill your iPod shuffle it can convert to 128kbps aac or whatever to squeeze it onto your portable device.
but this is exactly the kind of stuff that scares the HELL out of movie studios. they do not believe in such fair use. it will be great but a long journey till they give you a full legal 720p HDTV copy which you can then recompress, take on the go, etc. well anyway that's what they're trying to do with this HDCP rubbish which will just be cracked and hacked to death anyway. i say give us that full legal paid for 720p or 1080p HDTV h.264 file and let us do whatever the hell we want to! as long as we don't email a copy to aunt emma or upload it somewhere
rwahrens... yeah, fair enough... let's say you can download and purchase high quality h.264 720p HDTV of an apple movie store, recompressing that into smaller nuggets for on-the-go vPodding will be cool. just like how if you have apple lossless audio files on your Mac or PC when you autofill your iPod shuffle it can convert to 128kbps aac or whatever to squeeze it onto your portable device.
but this is exactly the kind of stuff that scares the HELL out of movie studios. they do not believe in such fair use. it will be great but a long journey till they give you a full legal 720p HDTV copy which you can then recompress, take on the go, etc. well anyway that's what they're trying to do with this HDCP rubbish which will just be cracked and hacked to death anyway. i say give us that full legal paid for 720p or 1080p HDTV h.264 file and let us do whatever the hell we want to! as long as we don't email a copy to aunt emma or upload it somewhere
Well, look at what the RIAA is doing - they're the same sort of stodgy has-beens that can't see a good thing to make money off of if it bit 'em in the tuckus!
In the meantime, artists *have* noticed,and you can bet that they'll be glad to sell us copies of their music videos to cart around as we wish! Then after they've done that for a year or so, maybe the studios will take a hint...
All this debate just proves that Apple is right: The market isn't ready for a Video iPod - the content is not there.
Either Apple has a truly unique content scheme ready for us, or we won't be seeing the Video iPod next week.
What surprises me is that Apple has done nothing since sending out the invitation to debunk the iPod Video news. Apple's happy to have people speculating (incorrectly), but when the NY Times, CNET and BBC are telling the world that the Video iPod is coming, any announcement OTHER than the vPod will DISAPPOINT the audience; Apple doesn't like to disappoint, especially with a "one more thing" announcement. Curious.
All this debate just proves that Apple is right: The market isn't ready for a Video iPod - the content is not there.
Either Apple has a truly unique content scheme ready for us, or we won't be seeing the Video iPod next week.
What surprises me is that Apple has done nothing since sending out the invitation to debunk the iPod Video news. Apple's happy to have people speculating (incorrectly), but when the NY Times, CNET and BBC are telling the world that the Video iPod is coming, any announcement OTHER than the vPod will DISAPPOINT the audience; Apple doesn't like to disappoint, especially with a "one more thing" announcement. Curious.
Haven't you been reading the posts?
Yes, the content IS there! Just go to the ITMS and look at the huge numbers of music videos they have! That's the initial foot in the door Apple needs - let the MV market take off, and after they're sold a few hundred thousand Music Videos, or more, the studios will perhaps realize that the technology IS ready, using Apple DRM built into the ITMS. They already know that their market is there, people want movies, tv content, etc. All it takes is for someone (Apple?) to show the world that technically, they CAN do it!
Can Apple honestly start selling things they (and others) are giving away for free. Just search for "music videos" on google and you'll see loads of sites that have them free. Perhaps offering better quality can help, but I don't see that they can rely on music videos to sell a device, even if the music videos were free.
On the other hand, I noticed today that certain pirating groups are now releasing recordings of TV episodes in UMD format (for PSP), if Apple could get an agreement to do a similar thing for the iPod it would be very successful I imagine, this also ties in quite well with the rumour of somthing happening at the BBC in the UK on the same day.
The BBC are very into experiementing with "new media" (as they call it), so I can see them going for it. Not sure how the US media works, its much more disparate so it might be hard to get a general agreement from them, but perhaps a partnership with Fox and someone else would push sales...
hi mel, meoww!! i thought you were kinda serious when you said "the ds does wireless?"
re: 720p HD on an iPod.
no worries according to my calculations
lets take a 120minute movie. 120 x 60 = 7200 seconds per movie
bitrates for h.264. apple has demonstrated decent quality at
6megabits/second to say 10megabits/sec for 1280x720
6 megabits/second for 7200 seconds conservatively approx. to say 6GB
10 megabits/second for 7200 seconds conservatively approx. to say 10GB
thus, it is possible, using those fantastic base 10 calculations (1,000, 10,000 songs in your pocket etc. etc..) for apple to say:
10 High Definition Movies. In Your Pocket.
The new 100gb iPod VideoHD.
you know that between 6megabits/second and 10megabits/second, for 10 720p 120min movies, say including AAC-encoded 5.1 channel surround or whatever 5.1 surround encoding as per mpeg4 standards, 80gb seems to be the sweet spot here since 100gb drives might be pretty expensive.
given the math above and encoding between 6megabits/sec and 10megabits/sec and the fact that a movie on average is less than a full two hours long, apple could very reasonably market a 80gb iPod Video HiDef as "10 HiDefinition movies. In your pocket."
80gb iPod HiDefinition Edition
[10 HDTV movies] OR [20,000 songs] OR [5 HDTV movies + 10,000 songs]
Yeah, you're right, of course. It was late, somehow I was thinking of something different.
I will have to get after that new punk, rwahrens, though, he has a big mouth.
They did it with the iTunes Music Store, .Mac, and iMovie just to name a few. They'd do it again and people would buy.
What did they do with iMovie that was free? I agree that similar solutions to .Mac can be found elsewhere for free. The difference is that current music video sites (like Yahoo's Launch) are legal, whereas ITMS's content was previously free, but illegal. Apple would need to offer 'added-value' like they do with ITMS+iPod - ease of use and quality come to mind. Do people really want portable music videos, we'll see...
Comments
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by retiarius
...unfortunately, this implies 480p rather than hi-definition,
but apple can spin this, as it is at least as good as dvd.
...besides, every mac sold can do h.264 at 480p via 1.25 ghz
g4 or better, and has either vga or dvi output to serve most
living room scenarios.
i would have to agree, 720p h.264 downloads would be quite revolutionary, i don't think movie studios would commit to this, not yet, unless steve has seriously worked some magic. we'll see.
but 480p h.264 downloads playable on a wide range of macs and possibly an iPod video would be great, marketing spin would be "DVD quality movies at one third the size of a DVD" ~ downloaded right to your computer, synced with your video iPod
something tells me though that this is not quite there yet. next year maybe, with 720p or 1080p fullblown HD downloads for mac-based hometheatre stuff, 480p for ipod video stuff.
hmmm.... speculation runs deep and wild at this stage, i'm feeling lost. damn iSteve and his tricks for drumming up hype and mystery!!!!!
A full movie at 720p, even with H.264 wouldn't come close to fitting on an iPod. If it did, the compression would be so high that you wouldn't want it anyway.
re: 720p HD on an iPod.
no worries according to my calculations
lets take a 120minute movie. 120 x 60 = 7200 seconds per movie
bitrates for h.264. apple has demonstrated decent quality at
6megabits/second to say 10megabits/sec for 1280x720
6 megabits/second for 7200 seconds conservatively approx. to say 6GB
10 megabits/second for 7200 seconds conservatively approx. to say 10GB
thus, it is possible, using those fantastic base 10 calculations (1,000, 10,000 songs in your pocket etc. etc..) for apple to say:
10 High Definition Movies. In Your Pocket.
The new 100gb iPod VideoHD.
you know that between 6megabits/second and 10megabits/second, for 10 720p 120min movies, say including AAC-encoded 5.1 channel surround or whatever 5.1 surround encoding as per mpeg4 standards, 80gb seems to be the sweet spot here since 100gb drives might be pretty expensive.
given the math above and encoding between 6megabits/sec and 10megabits/sec and the fact that a movie on average is less than a full two hours long, apple could very reasonably market a 80gb iPod Video HiDef as "10 HiDefinition movies. In your pocket."
80gb iPod HiDefinition Edition
[10 HDTV movies] OR [20,000 songs] OR [5 HDTV movies + 10,000 songs]
Originally posted by melgross
A full movie at 720p, even with H.264 wouldn't come close to fitting on an iPod. If it did, the compression would be so high that you wouldn't want it anyway.
Are you crazy? I can record the stream from a 1/2 hr tv show on 2 gb of space. If I can do that at regular TV resolution, what's to keep me from doing the same for a movie, boosting the storage required to 8 gigs? And that's uncompressed.
I hope you've paid enough attention to the iPod market to notice that iPods can hold up to 60 GB of data?
Besides - has ANYBODY noticed that Apple has been allowing you to view music videos on the ITMS for at least the last 6 months? So what's the automatic assumption about iPod video and what you'll be able to buy to play on it? Music Videos!
Originally posted by sunilraman
80gb iPod HiDefinition Edition
[10 HDTV movies] OR [20,000 songs] OR [5 HDTV movies + 10,000 songs]
Well you work under that they will use 6-10mbits/s. Based on their HD movies on the QT pages this is true. However this is like Apple basing all their song amounts on lossless quality audio.
I can certainly compress a 704x400 DVD stream (from an episode of 24) at 1100kbps. To get to that figure I do a calculation recommended on the HandBrake forums:
Number of pixels * Frames per second * 0.16 = bits per second
704*400*25*0.16 = 1,126,400bps or 1100kbps. This runs at ~484MiB/hour for video.
This gives a perfectly acceptable picture. So on a 1280x720 movie:
1280*720*25*0.16 = 3686400 or 3600kbps. 1582MiB/hour or 1.55GiB/hour for video.
This should give the same quality results as my DVD copies using handbrake. In the past Apple has based its recomendations on lossy (128 AAC) formats, they could do the same game here...
125hours of DVD quality with 5.1 audio* on 80GB or 46hours of HD video with 5.1 audio.
*2 channel 128kbps AAC is 56.25MiB/hour thus 5.1 would be 168.75MiB/hour.
Originally posted by rwahrens
Are you crazy? I can record the stream from a 1/2 hr tv show on 2 gb of space. If I can do that at regular TV resolution, what's to keep me from doing the same for a movie, boosting the storage required to 8 gigs? And that's uncompressed.
I hope you've paid enough attention to the iPod market to notice that iPods can hold up to 60 GB of data?
Besides - has ANYBODY noticed that Apple has been allowing you to view music videos on the ITMS for at least the last 6 months? So what's the automatic assumption about iPod video and what you'll be able to buy to play on it? Music Videos!
You can download HDTV copies of TV episodes (38 minutes) at 350MB each (xvid/divx).
Originally posted by eAi
You can download HDTV copies of TV episodes (38 minutes) at 350MB each (xvid/divx).
Exactly! THAT'S compressed, so it takes up less space...just what I was tying to tell that idiot.
but yeah, it does look like it is very possible, taking 6-10megabits/sec as the bitrate for high-quality, up-to-apple-standards, h.264 1280x720 video with 5.1channel audio, to fit about 10 HiDef movies on a 60-80gb iPodVideo if such a thing comes out.
below that, it's more of a divx-type visual experience which would not come up to the full fun and enjoyment of 720p HDTV especially on big screens or 1280x1024/ 1280x960 computer LCDs.
I assume this is not the little game where you shoot asteroids into little peices that has been around for a decade...
... but what are they talking about?
Originally posted by sunilraman
whoa chill peoples. 350mb divx are ripped from HDTV sources but the final files of bittorrent are NOT HDTV. these divx/xvid rippers also usually recompress the 5.1 surround audio into 2 channel audio.
but yeah, it does look like it is very possible, taking 6-10megabits/sec as the bitrate for high-quality, up-to-apple-standards, h.264 1280x720 video with 5.1channel audio, to fit about 10 HiDef movies on a 60-80gb iPodVideo if such a thing comes out.
Nobody said it was. I was referring to a file resulting from saving video from a video box feeding cable to a Mac. That is definately NOT hdtv standard, but it serves to allow me to watch a tv show on the run during an hour commute using a vPod (when they come out!) instead of when the networks want me to.
AND, due to the Fair Use provisions, its legal, providing I don't send that copy to Aunt Emma. (or anybody else)
but this is exactly the kind of stuff that scares the HELL out of movie studios. they do not believe in such fair use. it will be great but a long journey till they give you a full legal 720p HDTV copy which you can then recompress, take on the go, etc. well anyway that's what they're trying to do with this HDCP rubbish which will just be cracked and hacked to death anyway. i say give us that full legal paid for 720p or 1080p HDTV h.264 file and let us do whatever the hell we want to! as long as we don't email a copy to aunt emma or upload it somewhere
Originally posted by sunilraman
rwahrens... yeah, fair enough... let's say you can download and purchase high quality h.264 720p HDTV of an apple movie store, recompressing that into smaller nuggets for on-the-go vPodding will be cool. just like how if you have apple lossless audio files on your Mac or PC when you autofill your iPod shuffle it can convert to 128kbps aac or whatever to squeeze it onto your portable device.
but this is exactly the kind of stuff that scares the HELL out of movie studios. they do not believe in such fair use. it will be great but a long journey till they give you a full legal 720p HDTV copy which you can then recompress, take on the go, etc. well anyway that's what they're trying to do with this HDCP rubbish which will just be cracked and hacked to death anyway. i say give us that full legal paid for 720p or 1080p HDTV h.264 file and let us do whatever the hell we want to! as long as we don't email a copy to aunt emma or upload it somewhere
Well, look at what the RIAA is doing - they're the same sort of stodgy has-beens that can't see a good thing to make money off of if it bit 'em in the tuckus!
In the meantime, artists *have* noticed,and you can bet that they'll be glad to sell us copies of their music videos to cart around as we wish! Then after they've done that for a year or so, maybe the studios will take a hint...
Either Apple has a truly unique content scheme ready for us, or we won't be seeing the Video iPod next week.
What surprises me is that Apple has done nothing since sending out the invitation to debunk the iPod Video news. Apple's happy to have people speculating (incorrectly), but when the NY Times, CNET and BBC are telling the world that the Video iPod is coming, any announcement OTHER than the vPod will DISAPPOINT the audience; Apple doesn't like to disappoint, especially with a "one more thing" announcement. Curious.
Originally posted by Sport73
All this debate just proves that Apple is right: The market isn't ready for a Video iPod - the content is not there.
Either Apple has a truly unique content scheme ready for us, or we won't be seeing the Video iPod next week.
What surprises me is that Apple has done nothing since sending out the invitation to debunk the iPod Video news. Apple's happy to have people speculating (incorrectly), but when the NY Times, CNET and BBC are telling the world that the Video iPod is coming, any announcement OTHER than the vPod will DISAPPOINT the audience; Apple doesn't like to disappoint, especially with a "one more thing" announcement. Curious.
Haven't you been reading the posts?
Yes, the content IS there! Just go to the ITMS and look at the huge numbers of music videos they have! That's the initial foot in the door Apple needs - let the MV market take off, and after they're sold a few hundred thousand Music Videos, or more, the studios will perhaps realize that the technology IS ready, using Apple DRM built into the ITMS. They already know that their market is there, people want movies, tv content, etc. All it takes is for someone (Apple?) to show the world that technically, they CAN do it!
On the other hand, I noticed today that certain pirating groups are now releasing recordings of TV episodes in UMD format (for PSP), if Apple could get an agreement to do a similar thing for the iPod it would be very successful I imagine, this also ties in quite well with the rumour of somthing happening at the BBC in the UK on the same day.
The BBC are very into experiementing with "new media" (as they call it), so I can see them going for it. Not sure how the US media works, its much more disparate so it might be hard to get a general agreement from them, but perhaps a partnership with Fox and someone else would push sales...
Originally posted by eAi
but perhaps a partnership with Fox and someone else would push sales...
That would be brilliant! Imagine Jobs, Gore and Co helping Fox... ah the irony!!
Originally posted by sunilraman
hi mel, meoww!! i thought you were kinda serious when you said "the ds does wireless?"
re: 720p HD on an iPod.
no worries according to my calculations
lets take a 120minute movie. 120 x 60 = 7200 seconds per movie
bitrates for h.264. apple has demonstrated decent quality at
6megabits/second to say 10megabits/sec for 1280x720
6 megabits/second for 7200 seconds conservatively approx. to say 6GB
10 megabits/second for 7200 seconds conservatively approx. to say 10GB
thus, it is possible, using those fantastic base 10 calculations (1,000, 10,000 songs in your pocket etc. etc..) for apple to say:
10 High Definition Movies. In Your Pocket.
The new 100gb iPod VideoHD.
you know that between 6megabits/second and 10megabits/second, for 10 720p 120min movies, say including AAC-encoded 5.1 channel surround or whatever 5.1 surround encoding as per mpeg4 standards, 80gb seems to be the sweet spot here since 100gb drives might be pretty expensive.
given the math above and encoding between 6megabits/sec and 10megabits/sec and the fact that a movie on average is less than a full two hours long, apple could very reasonably market a 80gb iPod Video HiDef as "10 HiDefinition movies. In your pocket."
80gb iPod HiDefinition Edition
[10 HDTV movies] OR [20,000 songs] OR [5 HDTV movies + 10,000 songs]
Yeah, you're right, of course. It was late, somehow I was thinking of something different.
I will have to get after that new punk, rwahrens, though, he has a big mouth.
Originally posted by eAi
Can Apple honestly start selling things they (and others) are giving away for free.
They did it with the iTunes Music Store, .Mac, and iMovie just to name a few. They'd do it again and people would buy.
Originally posted by CosmoNut
They did it with the iTunes Music Store, .Mac, and iMovie just to name a few. They'd do it again and people would buy.
What did they do with iMovie that was free? I agree that similar solutions to .Mac can be found elsewhere for free. The difference is that current music video sites (like Yahoo's Launch) are legal, whereas ITMS's content was previously free, but illegal. Apple would need to offer 'added-value' like they do with ITMS+iPod - ease of use and quality come to mind. Do people really want portable music videos, we'll see...