Another Apple advantage becoming a Microsoft advantage:The Internet

Posted:
in Mac Software edited January 2014
I can't believe this is happening.



It appears that yet another area that was supposed to help Apple is instead going to be used against Apple. Apple has conceded browsing on the desktop to Microsoft. However Microsoft makes IE just a little incompatible with websites out there and what was supposed to be the saving grace of the Mac. (Internet being platform neutral) is now likely lead to the purchasing of fewer Macs.



I am an educator and also a parent. Many sites like pbskids.org or sesamestreet.org seem to only work well with IE on the PC. The combination of flash, html, and javascript would be the idea environment for Macs, but instead it doesn't work 100% with the Mac.



This has already started to undermine Apple acceptance both at my school and even in my own home!



My wife, who's basic mentality towards computers is, Mac's good, PC's bad has even hesistated. Our two year old loves computing. However believe it or not he seems to understand Windows better than the Mac, and she prefers browsing on Windows because the speed difference is very noticeable under OS 9 and X. My two year old, understands the buttons that close and minimize, and also understands how the task bar works. He can even go through the start menu to begin programs or use the autostart cd feature to use his favorite programs.



On the Mac, the different window widgets between OS 9 and X confuse him. He does get the dock and can use it to start programs, but the two different minimize techniques, (windows shade and minimize) confuse him. I wouldn't even worry about classic, but the only way many of these sites will work is with Netscape via classic. Not exactly the future of Mac computing.



The situation is similar at my school. The iMacs are a real blessing. Small, silent, and I love never having to clean a mouse because it is so awesome with their professional mouse.



However these teachers do not want to deal with two web browsers. IE on the Mac falls short. Again OS 9 is very consistent but if I started running OS X, (which I really want to do because OS 9 is crash-prone, especially with Netscape) the interface disparity is annoying to them.



Again I obviously have no problem with these issues myself. I consider classic an incredible achievement. It is nearly flawless for me when running OS 9 within OS X. But the widget issues and browser issues are really starting to make it harder to argue for the Mac. The most amazing thing is that internet neutrality and OS X were supposed to make it easier to argue for the Mac.



Our school will purchase more computers this year. It is likely that the fact so many resources are available on the internet will be used to buy... PC's because now we don't lose anything since it is supposedly platform neutral.



In my own household I get tired of my son sitting in front of my own PC. (I have a PowerMac and PC at the same table) He has a Pentium 133 in his room and we also own a SuperMac [email protected] and a Mac 6500. I suggested to my wife that we dump his PC and use by a refurbished iMac for him to run via airport from his room. I was astonished when she said no because of browsing concerns. Instead she wants me to investigate wireless PCI cards to run an inexpensive PC or for us to wait until Apple finishes solving the browser issues.



Yikes!



Nick
«1

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 26
    kelibkelib Posts: 740member
    This is old news to me. I have stated in another thread why I'm going for a PC this time.



    1. My bank doesn't accept Macs for home banking for whatever reason.



    2. I can't get online quotes on mortgage rates and such at the main Mortgage lender in this country.



    3. I can't write flawlessly in my own language in Ms. Office. (The special characters only work in a limited number of fonts and only in size of 12 pt. or less) MS blames Apple for this but solution will at the very first be available with OsX.2



    4. I can't video chat with my friends. Our community uses Yahoo as well as FocusFocus, neither of which are available for Macs at this time.



    4. To view my regular web sites I have to switch between 2 or 3 browsers all the time and I'm getting sick and tired of it. As I stated in #2 that's not even enough.



    I think the browser issue is becoming Apples biggest problem (along with slow hardware). The dangerus thing here is that even Apple solves this problem, let's say within a year and a half, changes are I'll never come back to the platform again and there are 1000's of people like me in similar situation
  • Reply 2 of 26
    serranoserrano Posts: 1,806member
    [quote]Originally posted by kelib:

    <strong>The dangerus thing here is that even Apple solves this problem, let's say within a year and a half, changes are I'll never come back to the platform again and there are 1000's of people like me in similar situation</strong><hr></blockquote>



    it will be the death of apple!!!



    if a wintel suits your needs, by all means buy a pc- it's OK.



  • Reply 3 of 26
    torifiletorifile Posts: 4,024member
    The problem is lazy web designers. They only code their pages for IE for windows and hope it works with other browsers. The problem is ours to solve. We shouldn't tolerate poorly coded pages and the sites that say "looks best in [such and such] browser" should be shunned. Email the webmaster and tell them to get standards compliant. Writing good code isn't easy (or cheap), but it's the only way those of us in the minority are going to be able to see the full promise of the internet.



    But, you're right, it is a problem. But I think that the problem is actually with the browsers on the windows end and because things "look" ok on IE for windows, people assume its the other browser's fault. Unfortunately, there is no fully standards compliant browser, so the task isn't easy. Now I'm rambling, but you get the point. Lazy web designers need to get off their asses and learn to code.
  • Reply 4 of 26
    neutrino23neutrino23 Posts: 1,515member
    Not to dismiss your problems lightly, but have you tried the recent "sneaky peek" versions of Omniweb? Since about sp50 they are fantastic. Fast, reliable and I can view virtually any site. OW works with my bank, works with slide shows on Apple's site (used to be only IE worked), works with a couple of java intensive sites I visit. My experience is not very broad but I have not found a recent site that I can't view with OW.



    I can't help you with ms office or chat software as I use neither. Have you tried Nisus Writer for document creation? It has always been very strong for multiscript document creation. We have used it for years for making English/Japanese documents.
  • Reply 5 of 26
    [quote]Originally posted by neutrino23:

    <strong>Not to dismiss your problems lightly, but have you tried the recent "sneaky peek" versions of Omniweb? Since about sp50 they are fantastic.</strong><hr></blockquote> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />



    Riiiiiiight...

    Now, THAT's a joke.



    Try some web sites that uses any CSS (1 or 2), DHTML, and some heavy JavaScrips and THEN tell me OmniWeb is fantastic. Shoot, I've got some simple web pages that I wrote two years ago that use very basic CSS1 and none of it works in OmniWeb! (BTW, yes, it's all cleanly coded by hand and works in ALL other browsers.)



    trumptman:

    Regarding your using Netscape in Classic, yuck! Have you tried Netscape 6.2 for OSX? For that matter, have you tried the recent builds of Mozilla like 0.9.8 or 0.9.9?
  • Reply 6 of 26
    kelibkelib Posts: 740member
    I have contacted dozens of webmasters. Those kind enough to reply say they're aware of this and it's on their 'to do' list but don't know when they'll have time and financial resources to get into it. We all know what that means.



    The problem with office is that my native language (Icelandic) is not supported in OsX. Office asks the Os for font table number which the Os does not have. We have some temporary fix from Apple Iceland but it's doesn't work with Microsoft software. I can view Icelandic pages in Explorer but the bookmarks are all but unreadable because of mix-up with the characters.



    I can't use OW on two of my most frequently visited sites (Skysports.com for score updates and a Java based chat site). But I agree, OW is by far the best browser for most sites)



    I used to have support from my wife when buying Macs but now she has become increasingly frustrated as well. Even with the fix I mentioned from Apple Iceland we can't read mail sent to us in MIME format. We can but they're all but unreadable. I'll post a screen shot when I get home to show you this.





    None of the things I mentioned above are problem on a Windows based PC. As much I would love to stick with the Mac I just feel I no longer can. However I will keep my old Macs to follow future developments on the OsX front.
  • Reply 7 of 26
    fotnsfotns Posts: 301member
    [quote]Originally posted by torifile:

    <strong>The problem is lazy web designers. They only code their pages for IE for windows and hope it works with other browsers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    It?s called the free market. People will do that which obtains them the maximum benefit for the least cost or effort. In this case, coding for Windows since it makes up 90% of the market.
  • Reply 8 of 26
    kelibkelib Posts: 740member
    [quote]Originally posted by FotNS:

    <strong>

    It’s called the free market. People will do that which obtains them the maximum benefit for the least cost or effort. In this case, coding for Windows since it makes up 90% of the market.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Exactly, with such low marked share it's simply not profitable putting money and effort into it. Sad but true
  • Reply 9 of 26
    jlljll Posts: 2,709member
    [quote]Originally posted by kelib:

    <strong>

    Exactly, with such low marked share it's simply not profitable putting money and effort into it. Sad but true</strong><hr></blockquote>



    But if AOL switches to Gecko and Netscape/Mozilla as a result is getting a 30-40% market share, it will hopefully help.
  • Reply 10 of 26
    emaneman Posts: 7,204member
    For speed definately try Mozilla.
  • Reply 11 of 26
    applenutapplenut Posts: 5,768member
    [quote]Originally posted by trumptman:

    <strong>

    However Microsoft makes IE just a little incompatible with websites out there and what was supposed to be the saving grace of the Mac. (Internet being platform neutral) is now likely lead to the purchasing of fewer Macs.



    Nick</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Actually Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.1.2 Macintosh Edition is the most standards compliant web browser available. Any probblems you experience are because of web designers not following set standards. Not because MS is intentionally limiting their product
  • Reply 12 of 26
    cowerdcowerd Posts: 579member
    [quote]Actually Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.1.2 Macintosh Edition is the most standards compliant web browser available. Any probblems you experience are because of web designers not following set standards. Not because MS is intentionally limiting their product<hr></blockquote>

    Not standards--most web sites don't even conform to simple HTML4, much less validate to CSS1 or CSS2--but for many its Front Page and proprietary tags that will only work in IE Wintel, or DHTML or javascript that only works in IE Wintel because the browser has low-level system access. And then there are many ActiveX controls etc. Even Flash and Shockwave can do lots more stuff on the Wintel side. Even SVG, an open W3C standard is browser crippled (since IE is most used) on the Mac.



    As far as the Internet being an Apple advantage, its always been its easier to get a Mac up and running of the internet, rather than you can do more things with a Mac on the internet. Apple doesn't fully "get" the internet. MS has been heavily involved with XML (not just for sys preferences) and XML-RPC and SOAP, as well as .NET and world domination. The SOAP implementation in OSX seems like just an afterthought to Apple, but it means mucho to people in the web community, including bloggers and people doing P2P and Content Management Systems.



    Its a marketshare issue (and OS issue) much more than a [web] standards issue.
  • Reply 13 of 26
    moogsmoogs Posts: 4,296member
    [quote]I am an educator and also a parent. Many sites like pbskids.org or sesamestreet.org seem to only work well with IE on the PC. The combination of flash, html, and javascript would be the idea environment for Macs, but instead it doesn't work 100% with the Mac.<hr></blockquote>





    This is 100% the fault of the web designer for that site, not Apple's fault (not in the least). Further, IE has been a very stagnant product on all platforms for the last year+...no reason to believe MS will change that with all the legal wrangling going on. The web innovation credit goes to Mozilla.org and their browser, which has better standards compliance than any browser on the market, and delivers that compliance to ten different platforms, with more to come. Everyone thought two years ago that IE was going to be the only viable browser on the web in the future.



    Look again.
  • Reply 14 of 26
    applenutapplenut Posts: 5,768member
    [quote]Originally posted by Moogs ?:

    <strong>



    The web innovation credit goes to Mozilla.org and their browser, which has better standards compliance than any browser on the market, and delivers that compliance to ten different platforms, with more to come. Everyone thought two years ago that IE was going to be the only viable browser on the web in the future.



    Look again.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    not according to WASP
  • Reply 15 of 26
    serranoserrano Posts: 1,806member
    [quote]Originally posted by kelib:

    <strong>I have contacted dozens of webmasters. Those kind enough to reply say they're aware of this and it's on their 'to do' list but don't know when they'll have time and financial resources to get into it. We all know what that means.



    The problem with office is that my native language (Icelandic) is not supported in OsX. Office asks the Os for font table number which the Os does not have. We have some temporary fix from Apple Iceland but it's doesn't work with Microsoft software. I can view Icelandic pages in Explorer but the bookmarks are all but unreadable because of mix-up with the characters.



    I can't use OW on two of my most frequently visited sites (Skysports.com for score updates and a Java based chat site). But I agree, OW is by far the best browser for most sites)



    I used to have support from my wife when buying Macs but now she has become increasingly frustrated as well. Even with the fix I mentioned from Apple Iceland we can't read mail sent to us in MIME format. We can but they're all but unreadable. I'll post a screen shot when I get home to show you this.





    None of the things I mentioned above are problem on a Windows based PC. As much I would love to stick with the Mac I just feel I no longer can. However I will keep my old Macs to follow future developments on the OsX front.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    You are not morally obligated to buy a mac! For christs sake man you can't read on your computer! that's pretty important! it's a tool for you right? to help you, not frustrate you. If your Iclandic software is not available and neither is your chat client (this seems to be all you use your computer for) buy a pc! it only makes sense! jeeeeeez
  • Reply 16 of 26
    moogsmoogs Posts: 4,296member
    Applenut:



    You're saying WaSP is not supporting Mozilla? I find this hard to believe given the amount of proprietary crap still floating around in IE. Have you checked out Mozilla's CSS compliance compared to the latest versions of IE? HTML 4 is more or less the same but it's no contest with CSS (especially CSS 2) - even with the remaining bugs that have to be fixed for Moz 1.0



    Or were you trying to say something else about WaSP?
  • Reply 17 of 26
    kelibkelib Posts: 740member
    [quote]Originally posted by janitor:

    <strong>



    You are not morally obligated to buy a mac! For christs sake man you can't read on your computer! that's pretty important! it's a tool for you right? to help you, not frustrate you. If your Iclandic software is not available and neither is your chat client (this seems to be all you use your computer for) buy a pc! it only makes sense! jeeeeeez</strong><hr></blockquote> Someone forgot to take his antidepressants I guess <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
  • Reply 18 of 26
    Why can't Apple just release their own browser: iBrowse? Web surfing just flat out sucks on Mac. Add that with a 56k modem and it is a terrible experience. I would love the afforementioned OmniWeb but it is SOOOOOOOOO slow and NONE of my browsers ever load all the images of the webpage.
  • Reply 19 of 26
    emaneman Posts: 7,204member
    [quote]Originally posted by Horned_Frog:

    <strong>Why can't Apple just release their own browser: iBrowse? </strong><hr></blockquote>



    That brings up a good point, why doesn't Apple make a browser? I think it'd be great for Mac users to have a great brower from Apple.
  • Reply 20 of 26
    mac gurumac guru Posts: 367member
    [quote] I can't use OW on two of my most frequently visited sites (Skysports.com for score updates and a Java based chat site). But I agree, OW is by far the best browser for most sites) <hr></blockquote>



    What exactly is your problem with skysports.com? I'm looking at it and browsing around it in the latest version of OmniWeb and have not run into one thing it didn't like yet.



    Just Curious.



    P.S.- Horned Frog (My mom uses almost that EXACT same name on eBay and we're from Texas, at first I had to check your profile to see if it was her ) WIERD.



    Mac Guru
Sign In or Register to comment.