Strong projected sales of Sony Corp.?s pending PlayStation 3 video game console equipped with a Blu-ray Disc drive are expected to underscore upwards of $2 billion in revenue this year in the blue laser disc technology market.
Anticipated sales of blue laser players, game consoles, PC drives and related media are expected to top $28 billion by 2010, according to technology research firm Santa Clara Consulting Group.
?Currently, the market seems to be preoccupied with the format battle between Blu-ray and HD DVD technologies. What is overlooked is the fact that a market is developing, and the opportunity is huge,? said David Bunzel, managing director of SCCG.
By 2010, blue laser disc player sales would total $4 billion and related movies contributing $3 billion in sales. Blue laser game consoles (PS3) would contribute $6 billion in sales, and related games $10 billion in sales. Blue laser PC drives would generate $4 billion in revenue, and blue laser blank media $400 million in sales.
?High-definition content will be a central focus for companies in the consumer electronic, gaming, entertainment and PC industries for the next five years,? Bunzel said. ?Blue laser disc technology is a critical component to the development of these markets.?
Can you beat your mother in debate? My mother is far too slippery. When my grandfather was alive it was fun to watch them argue because parents never like losing arguments to their children.
When mine loses she merely adjusts reality to make the winner wrong!
After suffering weeks of negative buzz over the picture quality of its first-generation Blu-ray disc player, Samsung now says an internal scaler chip may be to blame.
As reported earlier today by A/V magazine The Perfect Vision, Sony exec Don Eklund first brought the issue to Samsung's attention after noticing that the image quality produced by Samsung's BD-P1000 player "...did not match the quality of the master tapes from which the Blu-ray titles were encoded."
Samsung engineers later determined that "the noise-reduction circuit in the player's Genesis scaler chip was enabled, causing the picture to soften significantly."
Though Samsung has yet to issue any formal statements regarding the apparent faulty chip, the company's senior vice president of marketing for its Audio and Video Products Group Jim Sanduski confirmed to The Perfect Vision that the company is working to fix the problem on future shipments of the BD-P1000, and also plans to issue a firmware upgrade to correct the problem on current players.
"Samsung is currently working to revise the default settings on the noise-reduction circuit in the Genesis scaler chip to sharpen the picture," Sanduski is quoting as saying. "All future Samsung BD-P1000 production will have this revision and we are working to develop a firmware update for existing product."
As we've previously reported, some early adopters have experienced poor picture quality when using the recommended HDMI output on the Samsung player. Switching to component outputs has improved the image quality for these users, which could be a result of the component outputs bypassing the scaling chip.
Though the launch of rival format HD DVD was not without its own glitches, reviews of that format's first-gen hardware and software have been largely positive. If a repaired chip in the Samsung BD-P1000 markedly improves picture quality from the deck, it could help close the perceived gap in quality that currently exists between the two formats.
We will keep you posted on the latest developments in this story as it continues to unfold.
Ahh. So maybe some of the negatives we've been hearing don't have to do entirely to the choice of codec in MPEG2 or the Blu-ray disc themselves, but a little glitch from a chip in the Samsung.
I for one, would like to hear some revised reviews of Blu-ray movies, once the firmware update is in place. It should make for an interesting comparison.
Moreover, it'll be interesting to see forthcoming players from Blu-ray backers that will support HDMI 1.3 (with more colors and HD sound over the HDMI) and how that will come into play in the quality of Blu-ray movies. And lets not forget about the availability of DL movies this fall and how this should aid in the quality as well.
Roxio on Tuesday will announce support for Blu-ray Disc with Toast, its popular Macintosh CD and DVD burning software. The new release of Toast will be bundled with Blu-ray drives coming to retailers soon.
The software will enable Mac users who purchase Blu-ray drives to store as much as 50GB of data on a BD-R (recordable) or BD-RE (rewritable) disc, according to Roxio. Those drives will be coming to market later this calendar quarter. Adam Fingerman, director of product management for Roxio, told Macworld that several companies have spoken with or made arrangements with Roxio to bundle the Blu-ray-enabled version of Toast.
The new update to Toast will, at least at first, be available exclusively to users who buy the new BD drives, and won?t offer any additional functionality or features for non-Blu-ray drive users. Blu-ray drive users will receive the full Toast Titanium product, not a ?Lite? version.
Left to its own devices, Mac OS X v10.4 ?Tiger? doesn?t know what to do with Blu-ray Discs, so Toast will include Toast Dynamic Writing, software that lets users mount Blu-ray discs and write to the them the same way they would a removable storage device. What?s more, the data isn?t cached on the hard disk first ? so you needn?t worry about allocating 50GB of disk space before you can burn Blu-ray media.
"You cannot announce a game console for the next ten years and not have Blu-Ray" - Jen-Hsun Huang
NVIDIA's CEO has stated his confidence in the success of Sony's PlayStation 3 console, telling San Jose Mercury News journalist Dean Takahashi that the company has "backed the right horse" in the next-gen race.
Commenting on the company's decision to provide graphics processors for Sony, having previously worked with Microsoft to supply chips for the original Xbox, Huang stated: "You can't build chips for all the game consoles. That's not possible. No one has enough extraneous resources around to build chips for all the game consoles."
When asked if the company had "backed the right horse" in the latest console race, Huang was extremely confident in NVIDIA's commitment to Sony, adding: "I don't think that working with Sony is wrong. There is no way that is going to be wrong."
The CEO reaffirmed his belief in the success of Sony's Blu-Ray media format - in spite of the resultant high cost of the console compared to Microsoft's Xbox 360 or the Nintendo Wii - suggesting that the inclusion of Blu-Ray was integral to the hardware lifespan of the next-generation machine.
"I'm not sure how Microsoft is going to do in this transition," he stated. "They are clever and they will figure out a way. I'll make a prediction that Xbox 360 can't possibly be a DVD-only device by Christmas of next year.
"The important thing is you cannot announce a game console for the next ten years and not have Blu-Ray. It's an impossible scenario," Huang continued.
"If I'm going to buy a next-generation game console, I'm going to buy a console with next-generation media. It's going to last 10 years."
"You cannot announce a game console for the next ten years and not have Blu-Ray" - Jen-Hsun Huang
10 years? Don't consoles usually have a turn around of 4-5?
Quote:
Huang stated: "You can't build chips for all the game consoles. That's not possible. No one has enough extraneous resources around to build chips for all the game consoles."
Isn't IBM doing just that, producing all of the "CPUs" for the next gen consoles?
Quote:
"They are clever and they will figure out a way. I'll make a prediction that Xbox 360 can't possibly be a DVD-only device by Christmas of next year."
They can't do that. It would alienate all of their original customers. when game makes target the 360, do they target a DVD player, or the "new-disk-format" player. Consoles aren't moving targets like consumer PCs. This would never work.
Quote:
"The important thing is you cannot announce a game console for the next ten years and not have Blu-Ray. It's an impossible scenario," Huang continued.
"If I'm going to buy a next-generation game console, I'm going to buy a console with next-generation media. It's going to last 10 years."
And good luck finding games in 10 years for it. The next-next-gen will be out, and this guy will be spouting the same stuff then. No console can last 10 years, with no development. Lets see, 10 years ago the PlayStation was available. So according to this guy, he wouldn't have bought a PS2, he would still be hanging on to his trusty PlasyStation.
Ya, this guy has a lot to do with the impending format war. The way nvidia goes means nothing. Its as if the memory manufacture for the PS3 came out saying he backed blu-ray and thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Sorry, but this guy sounds like an idiot. 10 years???
I respect Huangs talent and expertise in graphics but he's sounding a wee bit like a cheerleader here.
The PS3 or any game console for that matter, success will be determined by game and gameplay. He really hasn't explained why Blu-Ray is a factor that it impossible to ignore. Thus he did come off sounding a bit ignorant.
Isn't IBM doing just that, producing all of the "CPUs" for the next gen consoles?
Producing maybe, but they didn't design them on their own, which I suspect was his point. He's talking about GPUs, his specialty. While the 360 uses a custom PowerPC, IBM was only part of a consortium of companies that designed the Cell processor for the PS3, ironically including Toshiba, the big backer of HD DVD. Graphics chips aren't designed by alliances and his point is that neither Nvidia nor ATI had the resources to design graphics chips for all the consoles. So ATI designed the chips for the 360 and the Wii while Nvidia worked on the PS3.
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They can't do that. It would alienate all of their original customers. when game makes target the 360, do they target a DVD player, or the "new-disk-format" player. Consoles aren't moving targets like consumer PCs. This would never work.
Why can't they? It's not an either/or proposition. He's saying they can't stay strictly with DVDs. But is there any reason why game makers wouldn't be able to target both? Say the main version for HD drives and a downgraded version on the flipside for plain DVD drives.
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And good luck finding games in 10 years for it. The next-next-gen will be out, and this guy will be spouting the same stuff then. No console can last 10 years, with no development. Lets see, 10 years ago the PlayStation was available. So according to this guy, he wouldn't have bought a PS2, he would still be hanging on to his trusty PlasyStation.
Ya, this guy has a lot to do with the impending format war. The way nvidia goes means nothing. Its as if the memory manufacture for the PS3 came out saying he backed blu-ray and thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Sorry, but this guy sounds like an idiot. 10 years???
Ease up. You apparently have some kind of bug up your butt where this guy is concerned. Have you considered that maybe what he was saying is that you won't be able to introduce another new console within the next ten years without Blu-ray, rather than saying the PS3 is the console for the next 10 years? That in 10 years, there will probably be another technology to supplant Blu-ray? Cut the man so slack. English is not his first language, but he still managed to get both bachelors and masters degrees in American universities. Are you as accomplished as this "idiot"? You're also wrong about the GPU having nothing to do with the optical drive. Nvidia designs its graphics chips to provide hardware decoding for the HD formats.
10 years? Don't consoles usually have a turn around of 4-5?
The SNES was around 13 years and games were produced for 10 and the PS had a similar life span. Sony has only just stopped manufacturing them so it's likely the PS3 will have a lifetime of 10+ years, even if a replacement appears 5 years down the line.
Finally keep in mind when the PS2 was first released virtually all the games were released on CDs. These days they are almost all DVDs. Similarly in 5 years time I expect game producers will be glad for the extra capacity of Blu-Ray, if you give it to them they will use it.
The SNES was around 13 years and games were produced for 10 and the PS had a similar life span. Sony has only just stopped manufacturing them so it's likely the PS3 will have a lifetime of 10+ years, even if a replacement appears 5 years down the line.
But when was the last time you could buy a new first-party or third-party "quality" title for the PS1? And I don't mean going to game stop and picking up a 6 year old game. I mean when was the last new games made? When the new system comes out, resources are put behind it. How much active XBOX development is going on today (and we are only 8 months or so after the release). I just think that by saying a console will last 10 years based on media choice, that he is expecting games to be produced for 10 years. Or else, what does it matter once the games are no longer made.
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Finally keep in mind when the PS2 was first released virtually all the games were released on CDs. These days they are almost all DVDs. Similarly in 5 years time I expect game producers will be glad for the extra capacity of Blu-Ray, if you give it to them they will use it.
But how do we know that Blu-ray won't be the CD of gaming consoles (short lived as a medium between cartridges and DVDs)? What if the next-next-gen (in 5-6 years) have games all shipping on flash drives? Or hot-swapable 2.5" hard drives? Blu-ray isn't going to be here forever, something new will come along.
And the other thing to consider. How many games get made for both consoles? 70%? 75% 80%? A developer isn't likely to create a game targeting Blu-Ray, and then go in and strip out a bunch of content for the Xbox release. They will make a game that works on the xbox (within its size constraints), and then put it on the PS3.
[BAnd the other thing to consider. How many games get made for both consoles? 70%? 75% 80%? A developer isn't likely to create a game targeting Blu-Ray, and then go in and strip out a bunch of content for the Xbox release. They will make a game that works on the xbox (within its size constraints), and then put it on the PS3. [/B]
I was under the impression this happened all the time. Wether it be for PC, with skeleton installs, vs full, or games made for consoles, and slightly lesser versions for portable players. Is this not the case?
I've never seen anyone so crazy mad about a damn optical disc... Why do you care so much hmurchinson?
For a shiny 5" disc, you're willing to attack and berate other people... interesting...
I'm just a person that likes to take things at face value and make my own judgements. The benefit of messageboards like AI is that I can openly post my judgements on particular electronic gear and we as an online community can discuss the merits or lackthereof of various products.
With the whole HD DVD vs Blu-Ray fiasco I noticed some disturbing trends. I'll highlight some of them.
1. The DVD Forum attempted to give us one format. Anyone who had product the submit to become the next DVD was encouraged to apply. Toshiba's AOD disc ended up winning because it met producers desire for a HD disc that can hold a full 2 hour movie w/extras. Sony never submitted Blu-Ray but instead organized a coup of sorts along with Matsushita and the large Korean companies (LG, Samsung). If we're discussing why there's a format war in the first place Sony is definitely the reason.
2. Both formats easily hold 4 hours of movies with audio. This covers %95 of all movie distribution yet I was consistently being told that 50GB is going to give me better quality than 30GB. No...it'll give more time but the quality depends on the bitrate.
3. Sony initially wanted Blu-Ray to be MPEG2 only and after some cajoling they added VC-1 and AVC. Toshiba had always planned to use the new codecs because MPEG2 wouldn't give them the quality nor time they needed on 30GB discs. MPEG2 would have negated any real difference in disc capacity because MPEG2 like to play above 25Mbps.
4. Cost- If we're not talking about subsidized hardware/software it's clear that HD DVD is the more inexpensive format to make. The HD DVD disc structure is the same as DVD. The OPU has a very close Numerical Aperture so that backwards compatability with DVD was assured. This made sense to me the lens assembly can be much cheaper and the discs can be manufactured on retrofitted pressing lines or a new line can be added that can do HD DVD and DVD-9. A nice perservation of legacy support and hardware.
I won't blather on and bore people. The crux of the matter is really seperating the wheat from the chaff. The questions to ask ourselves is "does the benefits of Blu-Ray outweigh the increase in price?" I looked at what was happening and I decided that it did not.
The context of my discussion has always been movie distribution thus I'm not swayed by carrots like 8-layer discs and 200GB. I need stuff that has concrete deliverables by xmas 2007 for consideration.
Sometimes I tend to debate quite aggressively but I welcome ANYONE to explain why my logic regarding the platform war is incorrect. Make no bones about it I will own both platforms but I'm VERY impressed with the execution of HD DVD and the thought put into its design and featureset. There is a backing reason for everything I state. I was supporting HD DVD before it shipped and a bunch of people jumped on the bandwagon. I'm glad I stuck to my guns on this one. I feel both formats will co-exist for some time but reports of Blu-Ray slaughtering HD DVD were obviously wishful thinking.
Sometimes I tend to debate quite aggressively but I welcome ANYONE to explain why my logic regarding the platform war is incorrect. Make no bones about it I will own both platforms but I'm VERY impressed with the execution of HD DVD and the thought put into its design and featureset. There is a backing reason for everything I state. I was supporting HD DVD before it shipped and a bunch of people jumped on the bandwagon. I'm glad I stuck to my guns on this one. I feel both formats will co-exist for some time but reports of Blu-Ray slaughtering HD DVD were obviously wishful thinking.
I'm your huckleberry.
I think it is wishful thinking that only after a month of being out that Blu-ray won't be slaughtering HD DVD come October when the likes of Philips, Pioneer, and Pasnasonic join the foray. Not to mention the X-factor, the PS3 which will do quite well in squashing the competition. Time will tell, but the wishful thinking I read is in the above post.
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With the whole HD DVD vs Blu-Ray fiasco I noticed some disturbing trends. I'll highlight some of them.
1. The DVD Forum attempted to give us one format. Anyone who had product the submit to become the next DVD was encouraged to apply. Toshiba's AOD disc ended up winning because it met producers desire for a HD disc that can hold a full 2 hour movie w/extras. Sony never submitted Blu-Ray but instead organized a coup of sorts along with Matsushita and the large Korean companies (LG, Samsung). If we're discussing why there's a format war in the first place Sony is definitely the reason.
This logic is so askew, I don't know where to begin, but I'll give it a whirl. Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer and others of the BDA who support Blu-ray exclusively are all a part of the DVD Forum, but chose to create what you call a coup in the form of the BDA when Toshiba and Intel decided to change the way votes were counted within the DVD Forum to pass off their own format when all the Blu-ray supporters were noticely absent--which was supposed to count as a vote for "no." So, to imply that Toshiba's AOD disc ended up winning the DVD Forum's vote "because it met producers desire for HD disc" is misleading in every way. Besides, if it met all "producers desire for HD disc" then why did so many CE manufacturers, IT companies, and other software companies defect to the BDA in the first place? Doesn't make sense when you look at this in a realistic and logical fashion.
Also, Sony isn't to blame for this format war as you so try to weakly conclude. There is equal blame to go around both on the HD DVD side as well as the Blu-ray side which is comprised of much more than just Sony--a point I will continue to repeat when you attempt to paint Blu-ray as a one pony show.
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2. Both formats easily hold 4 hours of movies with audio. This covers %95 of all movie distribution yet I was consistently being told that 50GB is going to give me better quality than 30GB. No...it'll give more time but the quality depends on the bitrate.
"Easily hold 4 hours," for HD DVD heh? From my understanding, a good portion of HD DVD titles are already very, very close in maxing out in their space using the most advanced codec, and we haven't even seen the epic titles come out that will be over 3 hours just for the video. I just waiting for, "well, they'll just have to come out on multiple discs" excuse you'll probably deliver. At least with Blu-ray, 50GB disce will be here in the fall, and this ought not be an issue.
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3. Sony initially wanted Blu-Ray to be MPEG2 only and after some cajoling they added VC-1 and AVC. Toshiba had always planned to use the new codecs because MPEG2 wouldn't give them the quality nor time they needed on 30GB discs. MPEG2 would have negated any real difference in disc capacity because MPEG2 like to play above 25Mbps.
Blu-ray always kept the door open in terms of what codecs being used and/or other features like MMC. Any statements to the contrary or simply supposition by you. Besides, your entire point here is moot, seeing in how Blu-ray does support MPEG4/H.264/AVC or VC-1 or MPEG2. It is up to the studios as to what codec will be used, so stop trying to discredit and isolate Sony for anything and everything Blu-ray, especially for points that have no bearing on what is being currently supported from the format.
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4. Cost- If we're not talking about subsidized hardware/software it's clear that HD DVD is the more inexpensive format to make. The HD DVD disc structure is the same as DVD. The OPU has a very close Numerical Aperture so that backwards compatability with DVD was assured. This made sense to me the lens assembly can be much cheaper and the discs can be manufactured on retrofitted pressing lines or a new line can be added that can do HD DVD and DVD-9. A nice perservation of legacy support and hardware.
Preservation of legacy support and hardware is on Blu-ray side as well (supports DVD\\CD) so I don't see your point here. As far as cost goes, I and a lot of others don't care if manufacturers incur extra cost as long as disc are the same price to the end consumer, which they are and which is the important thing.
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I won't blather on and bore people. The crux of the matter is really seperating the wheat from the chaff. The questions to ask ourselves is "does the benefits of Blu-Ray outweigh the increase in price?" I looked at what was happening and I decided that it did not.
What increase in price? Discs cost the same. Price of hardware is currently not, but that will change in 3 months. Soooo, are you telling me because Toshiba came out with a $499 subsidized player a couple of months before Sony releases their $499 subsidized player with much more capability in an early adoption market, this warrants allegiance to a format that has less benefits? What you assume about price in regards to Blu-ray hardware is that it will always be higher than HD DVD, which is just untrue.
Your argument has merit only in the short-term, but considering we are in an early adoption market as it pertains to everything HD, and that the economies of scale are in Blu-ray's favor, and that the majority of Hollywood is in Blu-ray's favor, the next coming months will provide ample time for HD DVD's slaghter to come to fruition still.
Well Doc Holliday how are you doing lunger? <Tombstone reference>
:P
How the votes were counted is inconsequential of Blu-Ray was never submitted . Had Toshiba lost the vote Blu-Ray still would not have been the blessed format. It was never there for vote.
As for space. I'm constantly suprised to see that there is no correlation between size and overall quality in HD DVD. Serenity is one of the smaller films. ATL is a single layer HD DVD layere Combo disc and folks over on AVS are raving about the quality. Clearly VC-1 cuts the muster when applied to current high quality masters. I expect Blu-Ray to have a similar improvement.
No preservation of legacy hardware isn't support in the player but the ability to utilize the press for legacy production. You buy a BD ROM press you can't turn around and start blasting out regular DVDs.
As for cost there simply is no empirical proof suggesting the notion that Blu-Ray is as cheap as HD DVD and that is reflected in the myriad of $999 or more home players as well as the lack of 50GB discs at launch and delays in players. Clearly the BDA was behind more than what people imagined and creating high yields of DL discs is problematic. Economies of scale helps both companies. The Soc can be the same. The blue laser diodes can be the same. The only difference is the optical technology really and HD DVD has the "clear" advantage there with a cheaper OPU structure.
Again nothing I've said her can be countered so effectively that it warrants any dreams about a Blu-Ray white wash. I welcome anyone to try though because that's the spirit of debate.
Comments
http://www.homemediaretailing.com/index.cfm?sec_id=2
PS3 Sales Expected to Skyrocket
Author: ERIK GRUENWEDEL
Posted: July 17, 2006
Strong projected sales of Sony Corp.?s pending PlayStation 3 video game console equipped with a Blu-ray Disc drive are expected to underscore upwards of $2 billion in revenue this year in the blue laser disc technology market.
Anticipated sales of blue laser players, game consoles, PC drives and related media are expected to top $28 billion by 2010, according to technology research firm Santa Clara Consulting Group.
?Currently, the market seems to be preoccupied with the format battle between Blu-ray and HD DVD technologies. What is overlooked is the fact that a market is developing, and the opportunity is huge,? said David Bunzel, managing director of SCCG.
By 2010, blue laser disc player sales would total $4 billion and related movies contributing $3 billion in sales. Blue laser game consoles (PS3) would contribute $6 billion in sales, and related games $10 billion in sales. Blue laser PC drives would generate $4 billion in revenue, and blue laser blank media $400 million in sales.
?High-definition content will be a central focus for companies in the consumer electronic, gaming, entertainment and PC industries for the next five years,? Bunzel said. ?Blue laser disc technology is a critical component to the development of these markets.?
Originally posted by hmurchison
Can you beat your mother in debate? My mother is far too slippery. When my grandfather was alive it was fun to watch them argue because parents never like losing arguments to their children.
When mine loses she merely adjusts reality to make the winner wrong!
Originally posted by Blackcat
When mine loses she merely adjusts reality to make the winner wrong!
LOL! Sounds like mine!
Originally posted by slughead
what was this thread about again?
HD DVD's dominance over Blu-Ray
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...aulty_Chip/144
After suffering weeks of negative buzz over the picture quality of its first-generation Blu-ray disc player, Samsung now says an internal scaler chip may be to blame.
As reported earlier today by A/V magazine The Perfect Vision, Sony exec Don Eklund first brought the issue to Samsung's attention after noticing that the image quality produced by Samsung's BD-P1000 player "...did not match the quality of the master tapes from which the Blu-ray titles were encoded."
Samsung engineers later determined that "the noise-reduction circuit in the player's Genesis scaler chip was enabled, causing the picture to soften significantly."
Though Samsung has yet to issue any formal statements regarding the apparent faulty chip, the company's senior vice president of marketing for its Audio and Video Products Group Jim Sanduski confirmed to The Perfect Vision that the company is working to fix the problem on future shipments of the BD-P1000, and also plans to issue a firmware upgrade to correct the problem on current players.
"Samsung is currently working to revise the default settings on the noise-reduction circuit in the Genesis scaler chip to sharpen the picture," Sanduski is quoting as saying. "All future Samsung BD-P1000 production will have this revision and we are working to develop a firmware update for existing product."
As we've previously reported, some early adopters have experienced poor picture quality when using the recommended HDMI output on the Samsung player. Switching to component outputs has improved the image quality for these users, which could be a result of the component outputs bypassing the scaling chip.
Though the launch of rival format HD DVD was not without its own glitches, reviews of that format's first-gen hardware and software have been largely positive. If a repaired chip in the Samsung BD-P1000 markedly improves picture quality from the deck, it could help close the perceived gap in quality that currently exists between the two formats.
We will keep you posted on the latest developments in this story as it continues to unfold.
Ahh. So maybe some of the negatives we've been hearing don't have to do entirely to the choice of codec in MPEG2 or the Blu-ray disc themselves, but a little glitch from a chip in the Samsung.
I for one, would like to hear some revised reviews of Blu-ray movies, once the firmware update is in place. It should make for an interesting comparison.
Moreover, it'll be interesting to see forthcoming players from Blu-ray backers that will support HDMI 1.3 (with more colors and HD sound over the HDMI) and how that will come into play in the quality of Blu-ray movies. And lets not forget about the availability of DL movies this fall and how this should aid in the quality as well.
Originally posted by hmurchison
HD DVD's dominance over Blu-Ray
I thought blu-ray was winning..
hrm.. I'll check back when we get to page 40
http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/07/24/toast/index.php
Toast to offer Blu-ray support for Macs
By Peter Cohen
Roxio on Tuesday will announce support for Blu-ray Disc with Toast, its popular Macintosh CD and DVD burning software. The new release of Toast will be bundled with Blu-ray drives coming to retailers soon.
The software will enable Mac users who purchase Blu-ray drives to store as much as 50GB of data on a BD-R (recordable) or BD-RE (rewritable) disc, according to Roxio. Those drives will be coming to market later this calendar quarter. Adam Fingerman, director of product management for Roxio, told Macworld that several companies have spoken with or made arrangements with Roxio to bundle the Blu-ray-enabled version of Toast.
The new update to Toast will, at least at first, be available exclusively to users who buy the new BD drives, and won?t offer any additional functionality or features for non-Blu-ray drive users. Blu-ray drive users will receive the full Toast Titanium product, not a ?Lite? version.
Left to its own devices, Mac OS X v10.4 ?Tiger? doesn?t know what to do with Blu-ray Discs, so Toast will include Toast Dynamic Writing, software that lets users mount Blu-ray discs and write to the them the same way they would a removable storage device. What?s more, the data isn?t cached on the hard disk first ? so you needn?t worry about allocating 50GB of disk space before you can burn Blu-ray media.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=18528
"You cannot announce a game console for the next ten years and not have Blu-Ray" - Jen-Hsun Huang
NVIDIA's CEO has stated his confidence in the success of Sony's PlayStation 3 console, telling San Jose Mercury News journalist Dean Takahashi that the company has "backed the right horse" in the next-gen race.
Commenting on the company's decision to provide graphics processors for Sony, having previously worked with Microsoft to supply chips for the original Xbox, Huang stated: "You can't build chips for all the game consoles. That's not possible. No one has enough extraneous resources around to build chips for all the game consoles."
When asked if the company had "backed the right horse" in the latest console race, Huang was extremely confident in NVIDIA's commitment to Sony, adding: "I don't think that working with Sony is wrong. There is no way that is going to be wrong."
The CEO reaffirmed his belief in the success of Sony's Blu-Ray media format - in spite of the resultant high cost of the console compared to Microsoft's Xbox 360 or the Nintendo Wii - suggesting that the inclusion of Blu-Ray was integral to the hardware lifespan of the next-generation machine.
"I'm not sure how Microsoft is going to do in this transition," he stated. "They are clever and they will figure out a way. I'll make a prediction that Xbox 360 can't possibly be a DVD-only device by Christmas of next year.
"The important thing is you cannot announce a game console for the next ten years and not have Blu-Ray. It's an impossible scenario," Huang continued.
"If I'm going to buy a next-generation game console, I'm going to buy a console with next-generation media. It's going to last 10 years."
Originally posted by marzetta7
"You cannot announce a game console for the next ten years and not have Blu-Ray" - Jen-Hsun Huang
10 years? Don't consoles usually have a turn around of 4-5?
Huang stated: "You can't build chips for all the game consoles. That's not possible. No one has enough extraneous resources around to build chips for all the game consoles."
Isn't IBM doing just that, producing all of the "CPUs" for the next gen consoles?
"They are clever and they will figure out a way. I'll make a prediction that Xbox 360 can't possibly be a DVD-only device by Christmas of next year."
They can't do that. It would alienate all of their original customers. when game makes target the 360, do they target a DVD player, or the "new-disk-format" player. Consoles aren't moving targets like consumer PCs. This would never work.
"The important thing is you cannot announce a game console for the next ten years and not have Blu-Ray. It's an impossible scenario," Huang continued.
"If I'm going to buy a next-generation game console, I'm going to buy a console with next-generation media. It's going to last 10 years."
And good luck finding games in 10 years for it. The next-next-gen will be out, and this guy will be spouting the same stuff then. No console can last 10 years, with no development. Lets see, 10 years ago the PlayStation was available. So according to this guy, he wouldn't have bought a PS2, he would still be hanging on to his trusty PlasyStation.
Ya, this guy has a lot to do with the impending format war. The way nvidia goes means nothing. Its as if the memory manufacture for the PS3 came out saying he backed blu-ray and thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Sorry, but this guy sounds like an idiot. 10 years???
The PS3 or any game console for that matter, success will be determined by game and gameplay. He really hasn't explained why Blu-Ray is a factor that it impossible to ignore. Thus he did come off sounding a bit ignorant.
Originally posted by kupan787
Isn't IBM doing just that, producing all of the "CPUs" for the next gen consoles?
Producing maybe, but they didn't design them on their own, which I suspect was his point. He's talking about GPUs, his specialty. While the 360 uses a custom PowerPC, IBM was only part of a consortium of companies that designed the Cell processor for the PS3, ironically including Toshiba, the big backer of HD DVD. Graphics chips aren't designed by alliances and his point is that neither Nvidia nor ATI had the resources to design graphics chips for all the consoles. So ATI designed the chips for the 360 and the Wii while Nvidia worked on the PS3.
They can't do that. It would alienate all of their original customers. when game makes target the 360, do they target a DVD player, or the "new-disk-format" player. Consoles aren't moving targets like consumer PCs. This would never work.
Why can't they? It's not an either/or proposition. He's saying they can't stay strictly with DVDs. But is there any reason why game makers wouldn't be able to target both? Say the main version for HD drives and a downgraded version on the flipside for plain DVD drives.
And good luck finding games in 10 years for it. The next-next-gen will be out, and this guy will be spouting the same stuff then. No console can last 10 years, with no development. Lets see, 10 years ago the PlayStation was available. So according to this guy, he wouldn't have bought a PS2, he would still be hanging on to his trusty PlasyStation.
Ya, this guy has a lot to do with the impending format war. The way nvidia goes means nothing. Its as if the memory manufacture for the PS3 came out saying he backed blu-ray and thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Sorry, but this guy sounds like an idiot. 10 years???
Ease up. You apparently have some kind of bug up your butt where this guy is concerned. Have you considered that maybe what he was saying is that you won't be able to introduce another new console within the next ten years without Blu-ray, rather than saying the PS3 is the console for the next 10 years? That in 10 years, there will probably be another technology to supplant Blu-ray? Cut the man so slack. English is not his first language, but he still managed to get both bachelors and masters degrees in American universities. Are you as accomplished as this "idiot"? You're also wrong about the GPU having nothing to do with the optical drive. Nvidia designs its graphics chips to provide hardware decoding for the HD formats.
Originally posted by kupan787
10 years? Don't consoles usually have a turn around of 4-5?
The SNES was around 13 years and games were produced for 10 and the PS had a similar life span. Sony has only just stopped manufacturing them so it's likely the PS3 will have a lifetime of 10+ years, even if a replacement appears 5 years down the line.
Finally keep in mind when the PS2 was first released virtually all the games were released on CDs. These days they are almost all DVDs. Similarly in 5 years time I expect game producers will be glad for the extra capacity of Blu-Ray, if you give it to them they will use it.
Originally posted by Telomar
The SNES was around 13 years and games were produced for 10 and the PS had a similar life span. Sony has only just stopped manufacturing them so it's likely the PS3 will have a lifetime of 10+ years, even if a replacement appears 5 years down the line.
But when was the last time you could buy a new first-party or third-party "quality" title for the PS1? And I don't mean going to game stop and picking up a 6 year old game. I mean when was the last new games made? When the new system comes out, resources are put behind it. How much active XBOX development is going on today (and we are only 8 months or so after the release). I just think that by saying a console will last 10 years based on media choice, that he is expecting games to be produced for 10 years. Or else, what does it matter once the games are no longer made.
Finally keep in mind when the PS2 was first released virtually all the games were released on CDs. These days they are almost all DVDs. Similarly in 5 years time I expect game producers will be glad for the extra capacity of Blu-Ray, if you give it to them they will use it.
But how do we know that Blu-ray won't be the CD of gaming consoles (short lived as a medium between cartridges and DVDs)? What if the next-next-gen (in 5-6 years) have games all shipping on flash drives? Or hot-swapable 2.5" hard drives? Blu-ray isn't going to be here forever, something new will come along.
And the other thing to consider. How many games get made for both consoles? 70%? 75% 80%? A developer isn't likely to create a game targeting Blu-Ray, and then go in and strip out a bunch of content for the Xbox release. They will make a game that works on the xbox (within its size constraints), and then put it on the PS3.
but then that is true of most things... including humans... but we know THEY arnt worth the investment
Originally posted by kupan787
[BAnd the other thing to consider. How many games get made for both consoles? 70%? 75% 80%? A developer isn't likely to create a game targeting Blu-Ray, and then go in and strip out a bunch of content for the Xbox release. They will make a game that works on the xbox (within its size constraints), and then put it on the PS3. [/B]
I was under the impression this happened all the time. Wether it be for PC, with skeleton installs, vs full, or games made for consoles, and slightly lesser versions for portable players. Is this not the case?
For a shiny 5" disc, you're willing to attack and berate other people... interesting...
Originally posted by werk5000
I've never seen anyone so crazy mad about a damn optical disc... Why do you care so much hmurchinson?
For a shiny 5" disc, you're willing to attack and berate other people... interesting...
I'm just a person that likes to take things at face value and make my own judgements. The benefit of messageboards like AI is that I can openly post my judgements on particular electronic gear and we as an online community can discuss the merits or lackthereof of various products.
With the whole HD DVD vs Blu-Ray fiasco I noticed some disturbing trends. I'll highlight some of them.
1. The DVD Forum attempted to give us one format. Anyone who had product the submit to become the next DVD was encouraged to apply. Toshiba's AOD disc ended up winning because it met producers desire for a HD disc that can hold a full 2 hour movie w/extras. Sony never submitted Blu-Ray but instead organized a coup of sorts along with Matsushita and the large Korean companies (LG, Samsung). If we're discussing why there's a format war in the first place Sony is definitely the reason.
2. Both formats easily hold 4 hours of movies with audio. This covers %95 of all movie distribution yet I was consistently being told that 50GB is going to give me better quality than 30GB. No...it'll give more time but the quality depends on the bitrate.
3. Sony initially wanted Blu-Ray to be MPEG2 only and after some cajoling they added VC-1 and AVC. Toshiba had always planned to use the new codecs because MPEG2 wouldn't give them the quality nor time they needed on 30GB discs. MPEG2 would have negated any real difference in disc capacity because MPEG2 like to play above 25Mbps.
4. Cost- If we're not talking about subsidized hardware/software it's clear that HD DVD is the more inexpensive format to make. The HD DVD disc structure is the same as DVD. The OPU has a very close Numerical Aperture so that backwards compatability with DVD was assured. This made sense to me the lens assembly can be much cheaper and the discs can be manufactured on retrofitted pressing lines or a new line can be added that can do HD DVD and DVD-9. A nice perservation of legacy support and hardware.
I won't blather on and bore people. The crux of the matter is really seperating the wheat from the chaff. The questions to ask ourselves is "does the benefits of Blu-Ray outweigh the increase in price?" I looked at what was happening and I decided that it did not.
The context of my discussion has always been movie distribution thus I'm not swayed by carrots like 8-layer discs and 200GB. I need stuff that has concrete deliverables by xmas 2007 for consideration.
Sometimes I tend to debate quite aggressively but I welcome ANYONE to explain why my logic regarding the platform war is incorrect. Make no bones about it I will own both platforms but I'm VERY impressed with the execution of HD DVD and the thought put into its design and featureset. There is a backing reason for everything I state. I was supporting HD DVD before it shipped and a bunch of people jumped on the bandwagon. I'm glad I stuck to my guns on this one. I feel both formats will co-exist for some time but reports of Blu-Ray slaughtering HD DVD were obviously wishful thinking.
]Originally posted by hmurchison
Sometimes I tend to debate quite aggressively but I welcome ANYONE to explain why my logic regarding the platform war is incorrect. Make no bones about it I will own both platforms but I'm VERY impressed with the execution of HD DVD and the thought put into its design and featureset. There is a backing reason for everything I state. I was supporting HD DVD before it shipped and a bunch of people jumped on the bandwagon. I'm glad I stuck to my guns on this one. I feel both formats will co-exist for some time but reports of Blu-Ray slaughtering HD DVD were obviously wishful thinking.
I'm your huckleberry.
I think it is wishful thinking that only after a month of being out that Blu-ray won't be slaughtering HD DVD come October when the likes of Philips, Pioneer, and Pasnasonic join the foray. Not to mention the X-factor, the PS3 which will do quite well in squashing the competition. Time will tell, but the wishful thinking I read is in the above post.
With the whole HD DVD vs Blu-Ray fiasco I noticed some disturbing trends. I'll highlight some of them.
1. The DVD Forum attempted to give us one format. Anyone who had product the submit to become the next DVD was encouraged to apply. Toshiba's AOD disc ended up winning because it met producers desire for a HD disc that can hold a full 2 hour movie w/extras. Sony never submitted Blu-Ray but instead organized a coup of sorts along with Matsushita and the large Korean companies (LG, Samsung). If we're discussing why there's a format war in the first place Sony is definitely the reason.
This logic is so askew, I don't know where to begin, but I'll give it a whirl. Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer and others of the BDA who support Blu-ray exclusively are all a part of the DVD Forum, but chose to create what you call a coup in the form of the BDA when Toshiba and Intel decided to change the way votes were counted within the DVD Forum to pass off their own format when all the Blu-ray supporters were noticely absent--which was supposed to count as a vote for "no." So, to imply that Toshiba's AOD disc ended up winning the DVD Forum's vote "because it met producers desire for HD disc" is misleading in every way. Besides, if it met all "producers desire for HD disc" then why did so many CE manufacturers, IT companies, and other software companies defect to the BDA in the first place? Doesn't make sense when you look at this in a realistic and logical fashion.
Also, Sony isn't to blame for this format war as you so try to weakly conclude. There is equal blame to go around both on the HD DVD side as well as the Blu-ray side which is comprised of much more than just Sony--a point I will continue to repeat when you attempt to paint Blu-ray as a one pony show.
2. Both formats easily hold 4 hours of movies with audio. This covers %95 of all movie distribution yet I was consistently being told that 50GB is going to give me better quality than 30GB. No...it'll give more time but the quality depends on the bitrate.
"Easily hold 4 hours," for HD DVD heh? From my understanding, a good portion of HD DVD titles are already very, very close in maxing out in their space using the most advanced codec, and we haven't even seen the epic titles come out that will be over 3 hours just for the video. I just waiting for, "well, they'll just have to come out on multiple discs" excuse you'll probably deliver. At least with Blu-ray, 50GB disce will be here in the fall, and this ought not be an issue.
3. Sony initially wanted Blu-Ray to be MPEG2 only and after some cajoling they added VC-1 and AVC. Toshiba had always planned to use the new codecs because MPEG2 wouldn't give them the quality nor time they needed on 30GB discs. MPEG2 would have negated any real difference in disc capacity because MPEG2 like to play above 25Mbps.
Blu-ray always kept the door open in terms of what codecs being used and/or other features like MMC. Any statements to the contrary or simply supposition by you. Besides, your entire point here is moot, seeing in how Blu-ray does support MPEG4/H.264/AVC or VC-1 or MPEG2. It is up to the studios as to what codec will be used, so stop trying to discredit and isolate Sony for anything and everything Blu-ray, especially for points that have no bearing on what is being currently supported from the format.
4. Cost- If we're not talking about subsidized hardware/software it's clear that HD DVD is the more inexpensive format to make. The HD DVD disc structure is the same as DVD. The OPU has a very close Numerical Aperture so that backwards compatability with DVD was assured. This made sense to me the lens assembly can be much cheaper and the discs can be manufactured on retrofitted pressing lines or a new line can be added that can do HD DVD and DVD-9. A nice perservation of legacy support and hardware.
Preservation of legacy support and hardware is on Blu-ray side as well (supports DVD\\CD) so I don't see your point here. As far as cost goes, I and a lot of others don't care if manufacturers incur extra cost as long as disc are the same price to the end consumer, which they are and which is the important thing.
I won't blather on and bore people. The crux of the matter is really seperating the wheat from the chaff. The questions to ask ourselves is "does the benefits of Blu-Ray outweigh the increase in price?" I looked at what was happening and I decided that it did not.
What increase in price? Discs cost the same. Price of hardware is currently not, but that will change in 3 months. Soooo, are you telling me because Toshiba came out with a $499 subsidized player a couple of months before Sony releases their $499 subsidized player with much more capability in an early adoption market, this warrants allegiance to a format that has less benefits? What you assume about price in regards to Blu-ray hardware is that it will always be higher than HD DVD, which is just untrue.
Your argument has merit only in the short-term, but considering we are in an early adoption market as it pertains to everything HD, and that the economies of scale are in Blu-ray's favor, and that the majority of Hollywood is in Blu-ray's favor, the next coming months will provide ample time for HD DVD's slaghter to come to fruition still.
:P
How the votes were counted is inconsequential of Blu-Ray was never submitted . Had Toshiba lost the vote Blu-Ray still would not have been the blessed format. It was never there for vote.
As for space. I'm constantly suprised to see that there is no correlation between size and overall quality in HD DVD. Serenity is one of the smaller films. ATL is a single layer HD DVD layere Combo disc and folks over on AVS are raving about the quality. Clearly VC-1 cuts the muster when applied to current high quality masters. I expect Blu-Ray to have a similar improvement.
If it was up to the studios to choose the codec.
Then why is Warner using MPEG2 for the same movies they shipped in VC-1 on HD DVD
No preservation of legacy hardware isn't support in the player but the ability to utilize the press for legacy production. You buy a BD ROM press you can't turn around and start blasting out regular DVDs.
As for cost there simply is no empirical proof suggesting the notion that Blu-Ray is as cheap as HD DVD and that is reflected in the myriad of $999 or more home players as well as the lack of 50GB discs at launch and delays in players. Clearly the BDA was behind more than what people imagined and creating high yields of DL discs is problematic. Economies of scale helps both companies. The Soc can be the same. The blue laser diodes can be the same. The only difference is the optical technology really and HD DVD has the "clear" advantage there with a cheaper OPU structure.
Again nothing I've said her can be countered so effectively that it warrants any dreams about a Blu-Ray white wash. I welcome anyone to try though because that's the spirit of debate.