Significantly? Really? I mean "significantly" add to the cost? I mean...seriously...that was a joke right?
Why is that so hard to accept?
If you are in the market for a low end computer, and are looking at the type of bundle that Dell or HP or e-machines or whatever sells for, say, $400 (and there seem to be quite a few such options out there that do), then you consider a Mac Mini at either $600 or $800 without a monitor, keyboard or mouse, might you not find the addition of such to be too much? It certainly seems to me to move it out of the 'low end' category.
Understood. But the 2-tuner DVRs out there are a very small minority...and this is a bit of a "hack" frankly.
Sony has future plans for more than 4 TV tuners. The next Tivo DVR has two Cablecard slots and thus two tuners. It's here and now and will only proliferate.
Downloading does give me the ability to modify the playback of my already recorded content however I don't always have the time or forsight to record everything yet I still want to maintain these features and in HD.
Quote:
But you are missing the point. The DVR is about "managing the programming"...but where Apple seems to be going is to skip that step altogether and just say "What do you want? OK, here it is." Screw scheduling conflicts, navigating schedules, etc. Just take (well, and pay for) what you want.
I have that already with Comcast VOD. Apple isn't bringing anything new to the table. Again they are only offering a difference in how I access my media. They aren't changing how I consume my media whether it be live or recorded.
Quote:
Well, frankly the "DVR revolution" currently consists of one un-profitable company (who is likely to be out of business in 2-3 years) and a bunch of cable operators providing a commodity solution to navigate their content "database".
Apple's prospects in downloads are almost equally bleak. Taking of the rose tinted glasses reveals a current Apple strategy that isn't much superior to what's available from Akimbo, or Moviebeam much less Comcast and other Cable Ops VOD services.
I'll hope that Apple does indeed find success but if they think that iTunes downloads suffice in lieu of a DVR they will be disappointed with the results IMO. Apple got lucky with the iPod but I don't expect that success to naturally translate to video as well. Hopefully I'm the buffoon who has to retract his statment in a couple of years but without a DVR I seriously doubt I'll have to.
Not my intention Jouster, please don't be offended. We all take liberties when we're debating and yours was negliglble.
I'm actually one of those saps who'll reuse my CRT monitor and maybe my wireless mouse and keyboard if it works. So the mini is fine for a quick setup.
If you are in the market for a low end computer, and are looking at the type of bundle that Dell or HP or e-machines or whatever sells for, say, $400 (and there seem to be quite a few such options out there that do), then you consider a Mac Mini at either $600 or $800 without a monitor, keyboard or mouse, might you not find the addition of such to be too much? It certainly seems to me to move it out of the 'low end' category.
Just for fun I sauntered on over to Dell to try and "buy" the cheapest comparable machine I could find. Here's what I came up with:
Dell Dimension B110:
- Intel® Celeron® D Processor 325 (2.53 GHz, 533 FSB)
- Dell USB Keyboard and Dell 2-button Scroll Mouse
- PC-cillin Internet Security: AntiVirus, Firewall, Spyware removal 15-months (you're not thinking about buying a PC without anti-virus software are you?)
- NETGEAR WG111 54 Mbps Wireless USB 2.0 Adapter
- Combo: Sonic DigitalMedia and MyDVD Plus (DVD+RW only) ... the closest thing I could find to iLife.
$647
Now...comparisions:
- CPU? Celeron comparable but not as good as Core Solo?
- Bus? Slower.
- HD? Larger, faster.
- DVD burner (required for the iLife-ish software)
- No Bluetooth
- Crappy iLife-ish software (has some features iLife doesn't though)
Add a keyboard and mouse (decent one's in fact) to Apple's $599 and your at about $650. Now add a monitor to both.
( NOTE: if you "goose" the Mac to the 80-GB and Super Drive, you add $100 )
Bottom-line is that Apple appears to be reasonably competitive here.
Not my intention Jouster, please don't be offended. We all take liberties when we're debating and yours was negliglble.
None taken...
Quote:
I'm actually one of those saps who'll reuse my CRT monitor and maybe my wireless mouse and keyboard if it works. So the mini is fine for a quick setup.
Absolutely. And that works for you, which is great. But one of the things I think made the Mini attractive before was the $499 tag. Now it seems that the it is starting to show some 'price creep,' and I think that's going to be counter productive.
I think this is the case because non Mac aware people like most of us here forget that the initial impression of cost is so important. So....in Chris Cuilla's comparison above, we have close to feature and price parity. But my point is that many won't dig as deep as he did, and will just order at the first sign of a $399 computer. That's a shame for Apple, as I feel they are missing a chance to extend the brand even further.
Don't forget that by "goose"ing the mac again to the $800 model, you also pretty much double the speed.
Actually, all I was talking about was adding the 80GB and Super Drive options to the $599 model. But...looking back...indeed you are right. It would be better to "up-buy" to the $799 model at that point...basically you get the better CPU for "free" in that move.
Man Apple is just almost evil in their up-sell brilliance.
I have an Elgato and it leaves a lot to be desired. Many digital cable channels are missing or have no audio and there is no way to watch encrypted content at all. People want an integrated solution matched with Apple software.
Microsoft is making great strides in this area. They will soon have a HTPC with an HDTV tuner and CableCARD 2.0 support.
Actually, you can use a card with one of the Elgato products to watch encrypted content. Maybe you need to check out their product line again \
Ummm...yeah, if you want to pay close to a thousand dollars for a Tivo substitute.
So tell me how much a similarly-equipped Media Centre PC would cost (ie. one with all the features the mini offers, not some cut-down garbage in a beige box)
Originally posted by Tommo_UK So tell me how much a similarly-equipped Media Centre PC would cost (ie. one with all the features the mini offers, not some cut-down garbage in a beige box)[/B]
Dell has a number of Media Center computers for $500 and up. They include KBs, mice and even flat panel 17" monitors. You can find them easily enough in a few seconds. Of course, from what you say, they don't count because the form factor is different (they are 'boxes'); my argument is that few will care - they'll just look at what you get for your $599 or whatever and conclude that the Mini doesn't offer a compelling reason to change.
This isn't a defence of Dell; rather it's a lament over the mini's upward trajectory in price and the effect that could have on its sales.
Edit: Or, more precisely, its ability to generate more switchers.
Microsoft is crushing Apple in the HTPC arena. It's not even close.
Plus they'll have iHD built right into Vista that'll kick in for HD DVD or online downloads.
If all Apple has to offer as competition is iPods playing overly compressed iTunes files ..Game Over.
Oh behold the irony, Mac is the defacto creation platform because of high standards and not setteling, but they may soon lose the media market because they sacrafice quality at every turn.
Oh behold the irony, Mac is the defacto creation platform because of high standards and not setteling, but they may soon loose the media market because they sacrafice quality at every turn.
Also, Apple hasn't even entered that market yet! They're inching up to it, but that's all.
Dell has a number of Media Center computers for $500 and up. They include KBs, mice and even flat panel 17" monitors. You can find them easily enough in a few seconds. Of course, from what you say, they don't count because the form factor is different (they are 'boxes'); my argument is that few will care - they'll just look at what you get for your $599 or whatever and conclude that the Mini doesn't offer a compelling reason to change.
This isn't a defence of Dell; rather it's a lament over the mini's upward trajectory in price and the effect that could have on its sales.
Edit: Or, more precisely, its ability to generate more switchers.
Oh please.. you can't compare the spec of their $500 PC with the Mac Mini, quite apart from the form factor. The mini is streets ahead feature-wise!
And the form factor matters. How are you going to fit a full-size PC under your TV exactly?
Oh please.. you can't compare the spec of their $500 PC with the Mac Mini, quite apart from the form factor. The mini is streets ahead feature-wise!
And the form factor matters. How are you going to fit a full-size PC under your TV exactly?
Whatever. I'm not arguing over which machine is better; just over which a potential switcher is going to buy. I don't believ, on current specs, it would be the Mini.
Oh behold the irony, Mac is the defacto creation platform because of high standards and not setteling, but they may soon lose the media market because they sacrafice quality at every turn.
Hey I'm just being honest. Windows Media Centre is much further along than anything Apple has. Apple's great at creation apps but they haven't really given us a good Media Center concept
Hey I'm just being honest. Windows Media Centre is much further along than anything Apple has. Apple's great at creation apps but they haven't really given us a good Media Center concept
And the question we can ask is; Why?
why are they inching up on it. They just added the feature to move it wirelessly. Good. Now, what's the next step?
Actually, you can use a card with one of the Elgato products to watch encrypted content. Maybe you need to check out their product line again \
You live in the UK. The Elgato EyeTV 610 does not work in the US. The Elgato EyeTV 500 is the only HDTV model they sell in the US and it only has two coaxial inputs, one for antenna and one for cable. That's it. No other inputs or outputs. They do not sell anything that can accept a CableCARD. They don't seem to have any plans to in the future either.
Comments
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Significantly? Really? I mean "significantly" add to the cost? I mean...seriously...that was a joke right?
Why is that so hard to accept?
If you are in the market for a low end computer, and are looking at the type of bundle that Dell or HP or e-machines or whatever sells for, say, $400 (and there seem to be quite a few such options out there that do), then you consider a Mac Mini at either $600 or $800 without a monitor, keyboard or mouse, might you not find the addition of such to be too much? It certainly seems to me to move it out of the 'low end' category.
Understood. But the 2-tuner DVRs out there are a very small minority...and this is a bit of a "hack" frankly.
Sony has future plans for more than 4 TV tuners. The next Tivo DVR has two Cablecard slots and thus two tuners. It's here and now and will only proliferate.
Downloading does give me the ability to modify the playback of my already recorded content however I don't always have the time or forsight to record everything yet I still want to maintain these features and in HD.
But you are missing the point. The DVR is about "managing the programming"...but where Apple seems to be going is to skip that step altogether and just say "What do you want? OK, here it is." Screw scheduling conflicts, navigating schedules, etc. Just take (well, and pay for) what you want.
I have that already with Comcast VOD. Apple isn't bringing anything new to the table. Again they are only offering a difference in how I access my media. They aren't changing how I consume my media whether it be live or recorded.
Well, frankly the "DVR revolution" currently consists of one un-profitable company (who is likely to be out of business in 2-3 years) and a bunch of cable operators providing a commodity solution to navigate their content "database".
Apple's prospects in downloads are almost equally bleak. Taking of the rose tinted glasses reveals a current Apple strategy that isn't much superior to what's available from Akimbo, or Moviebeam much less Comcast and other Cable Ops VOD services.
I'll hope that Apple does indeed find success but if they think that iTunes downloads suffice in lieu of a DVR they will be disappointed with the results IMO. Apple got lucky with the iPod but I don't expect that success to naturally translate to video as well. Hopefully I'm the buffoon who has to retract his statment in a couple of years but without a DVR I seriously doubt I'll have to.
Originally posted by jouster
Why is that so hard to accept?
Keyboards and mice can be had for $10-15 each. That is less than the sales tax on the $599 model and way less than the sales tax for the $799 model.
EDIT: My bad...I missed the "monitor" part of your dialogue. But monitors can be had for $100 so still relatively modest.
Really, there's no need to call someone a liar.
Not my intention Jouster, please don't be offended. We all take liberties when we're debating and yours was negliglble.
I'm actually one of those saps who'll reuse my CRT monitor and maybe my wireless mouse and keyboard if it works. So the mini is fine for a quick setup.
Originally posted by jouster
If you are in the market for a low end computer, and are looking at the type of bundle that Dell or HP or e-machines or whatever sells for, say, $400 (and there seem to be quite a few such options out there that do), then you consider a Mac Mini at either $600 or $800 without a monitor, keyboard or mouse, might you not find the addition of such to be too much? It certainly seems to me to move it out of the 'low end' category.
Just for fun I sauntered on over to Dell to try and "buy" the cheapest comparable machine I could find. Here's what I came up with:
Dell Dimension B110:
- Intel® Celeron® D Processor 325 (2.53 GHz, 533 FSB)
- 512MB DDR SDRAM at 400MHz
- 80GB Ultra ATA/100 7200RPM Hard Drive
- Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
- No Monitor
- Dell USB Keyboard and Dell 2-button Scroll Mouse
- PC-cillin Internet Security: AntiVirus, Firewall, Spyware removal 15-months (you're not thinking about buying a PC without anti-virus software are you?)
- NETGEAR WG111 54 Mbps Wireless USB 2.0 Adapter
- Combo: Sonic DigitalMedia and MyDVD Plus (DVD+RW only) ... the closest thing I could find to iLife.
$647
Now...comparisions:
- CPU? Celeron comparable but not as good as Core Solo?
- Bus? Slower.
- HD? Larger, faster.
- DVD burner (required for the iLife-ish software)
- No Bluetooth
- Crappy iLife-ish software (has some features iLife doesn't though)
Add a keyboard and mouse (decent one's in fact) to Apple's $599 and your at about $650. Now add a monitor to both.
( NOTE: if you "goose" the Mac to the 80-GB and Super Drive, you add $100 )
Bottom-line is that Apple appears to be reasonably competitive here.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Not my intention Jouster, please don't be offended. We all take liberties when we're debating and yours was negliglble.
None taken...
I'm actually one of those saps who'll reuse my CRT monitor and maybe my wireless mouse and keyboard if it works. So the mini is fine for a quick setup.
Absolutely. And that works for you, which is great. But one of the things I think made the Mini attractive before was the $499 tag. Now it seems that the it is starting to show some 'price creep,' and I think that's going to be counter productive.
I think this is the case because non Mac aware people like most of us here forget that the initial impression of cost is so important. So....in Chris Cuilla's comparison above, we have close to feature and price parity. But my point is that many won't dig as deep as he did, and will just order at the first sign of a $399 computer. That's a shame for Apple, as I feel they are missing a chance to extend the brand even further.
Originally posted by jouster
But my point is that many won't dig as deep as he did, and will just order at the first sign of a $399 computer.
That is probably true.
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Just for fun I sauntered on over to Dell to try and "buy" the cheapest comparable machine I could find. Here's what I came up with:
Dell Dimension B110:
( NOTE: if you "goose" the Mac to the 80-GB and Super Drive, you add $100 )
Bottom-line is that Apple appears to be reasonably competitive here.
Don't forget that by "goose"ing the mac again to the $800 model, you also pretty much double the speed.
Originally posted by MacCentric
Don't forget that by "goose"ing the mac again to the $800 model, you also pretty much double the speed.
Actually, all I was talking about was adding the 80GB and Super Drive options to the $599 model. But...looking back...indeed you are right. It would be better to "up-buy" to the $799 model at that point...basically you get the better CPU for "free" in that move.
Man Apple is just almost evil in their up-sell brilliance.
Originally posted by 1984
I have an Elgato and it leaves a lot to be desired. Many digital cable channels are missing or have no audio and there is no way to watch encrypted content at all. People want an integrated solution matched with Apple software.
Microsoft is making great strides in this area. They will soon have a HTPC with an HDTV tuner and CableCARD 2.0 support.
Actually, you can use a card with one of the Elgato products to watch encrypted content. Maybe you need to check out their product line again
Originally posted by wilco
Ummm...yeah, if you want to pay close to a thousand dollars for a Tivo substitute.
So tell me how much a similarly-equipped Media Centre PC would cost (ie. one with all the features the mini offers, not some cut-down garbage in a beige box)
Originally posted by jouster
No. But, otoh, I don't think Joe will consider it to be a cheap pc either. No monitor, KB or mouse and $800? Not even close to cheap.
Last time I checked the mini cost $599 for the base model, not $800. And "Joe" can always use his existing KVM from his old PeeCee.
Originally posted by Tommo_UK So tell me how much a similarly-equipped Media Centre PC would cost (ie. one with all the features the mini offers, not some cut-down garbage in a beige box)[/B]
Dell has a number of Media Center computers for $500 and up. They include KBs, mice and even flat panel 17" monitors. You can find them easily enough in a few seconds. Of course, from what you say, they don't count because the form factor is different (they are 'boxes'); my argument is that few will care - they'll just look at what you get for your $599 or whatever and conclude that the Mini doesn't offer a compelling reason to change.
This isn't a defence of Dell; rather it's a lament over the mini's upward trajectory in price and the effect that could have on its sales.
Edit: Or, more precisely, its ability to generate more switchers.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Microsoft is crushing Apple in the HTPC arena. It's not even close.
Plus they'll have iHD built right into Vista that'll kick in for HD DVD or online downloads.
If all Apple has to offer as competition is iPods playing overly compressed iTunes files ..Game Over.
Oh behold the irony, Mac is the defacto creation platform because of high standards and not setteling, but they may soon lose the media market because they sacrafice quality at every turn.
Originally posted by a_greer
Oh behold the irony, Mac is the defacto creation platform because of high standards and not setteling, but they may soon loose the media market because they sacrafice quality at every turn.
Also, Apple hasn't even entered that market yet! They're inching up to it, but that's all.
When they do, it will be different.
Originally posted by jouster
Dell has a number of Media Center computers for $500 and up. They include KBs, mice and even flat panel 17" monitors. You can find them easily enough in a few seconds. Of course, from what you say, they don't count because the form factor is different (they are 'boxes'); my argument is that few will care - they'll just look at what you get for your $599 or whatever and conclude that the Mini doesn't offer a compelling reason to change.
This isn't a defence of Dell; rather it's a lament over the mini's upward trajectory in price and the effect that could have on its sales.
Edit: Or, more precisely, its ability to generate more switchers.
Oh please.. you can't compare the spec of their $500 PC with the Mac Mini, quite apart from the form factor. The mini is streets ahead feature-wise!
And the form factor matters. How are you going to fit a full-size PC under your TV exactly?
Originally posted by Tommo_UK
Oh please.. you can't compare the spec of their $500 PC with the Mac Mini, quite apart from the form factor. The mini is streets ahead feature-wise!
And the form factor matters. How are you going to fit a full-size PC under your TV exactly?
Whatever. I'm not arguing over which machine is better; just over which a potential switcher is going to buy. I don't believ, on current specs, it would be the Mini.
Originally posted by a_greer
Oh behold the irony, Mac is the defacto creation platform because of high standards and not setteling, but they may soon lose the media market because they sacrafice quality at every turn.
Hey I'm just being honest. Windows Media Centre is much further along than anything Apple has. Apple's great at creation apps but they haven't really given us a good Media Center concept
Originally posted by hmurchison
Hey I'm just being honest. Windows Media Centre is much further along than anything Apple has. Apple's great at creation apps but they haven't really given us a good Media Center concept
And the question we can ask is; Why?
why are they inching up on it. They just added the feature to move it wirelessly. Good. Now, what's the next step?
I hope we see it April 1st.
Originally posted by Tommo_UK
Actually, you can use a card with one of the Elgato products to watch encrypted content. Maybe you need to check out their product line again
You live in the UK. The Elgato EyeTV 610 does not work in the US. The Elgato EyeTV 500 is the only HDTV model they sell in the US and it only has two coaxial inputs, one for antenna and one for cable. That's it. No other inputs or outputs. They do not sell anything that can accept a CableCARD. They don't seem to have any plans to in the future either.