Just in advance, I find the picking apart of a post using quotes to be quite annoying as it implies that you aren't willing to put the effort forward to write a real rebuttal and simple want to target a few last sentences here and there, so please do try not to do that.
I really don't see what the problem is. It is better to do that than not quote or quote the complete post, for one, to better understand exactly what comment a person is responding. Discussions can get pretty complex, and I think that reduces the chances of a misunderstanding. If someone is quoting out of context, then I understand that can be an issue, but at least with that sort of quoting, it is easier to backtrack to see if there were any problems.
A PDA-like phone would make more sense than incorporating phone functionality into the iPod. But it would have to be just one function of the PDA, not its strongest selling point
Melgross: Do you know Palm is migrating to Windows OS? I think its sad but its a consequense of a non-profitable marked.
Even if the OS of a possible Apple PDA would be build upon X it would most likely only be the low level foundation they shared. The GUI would have to be very different and stuff like pen input would have to be heavily integrated into the OS, like in the newton and VERY unlike the WIndows used for the Origami project.
I'm not sure that they are migrating. They will be coming out with a 700P in a month or two. That's why I changed my mind about buying the HTC 6700 Windows Mobikle 5 phone. They are making good profits on the Treo 650. But, in order to get into parts of the corporate market, they felt the need for a Windows product as well.
Remember that Palm no longer owns the OS.
That's the major reason why I don't think they will buy Palm. They could have bought the OS before Access did, but didn't.
Myst: I am not going to respond to the idea of an iPhone. We simply disagree about that. I think I have made my points and the reasoning for them clear and it is for everyone to judge if I made reasonable arguments. I do however have to comment your last part.
Quote:
Originally posted by Myst
Just in advance, I find the picking apart of a post using quotes to be quite annoying as it implies that you aren't willing to put the effort forward to write a real rebuttal and simple want to target a few last sentences here and there, so please do try not to do that.
This is just too far out I quote everything you said, taking each argument one by one. I left none of what you said out, so you just cannot say I am "picking apart" or "targeting a few sentences here and there".
I would be hard pressed to come up with a more fair way to rebut your post. I know you want to make a compelling case for the iPhone. But each step has to make sense for it to work, just like the original iPod ("Is there an untapped marked?", "Can we add anything meaningful the products already out there?", "Will we need coorporation off other players?", "Through what channels are we going to sell it?", "Could our money be spent more wisely?"). Thats why it is most logic to look at each step of your reasoning and not deal with it as a whole.
Had I commented on your post as a whole it would have been some variant of "I don´t think its a good idea" or "this will never work" without providing any real arguments for it. Then you would have something to complain about.
Therefore I would have liked you to take each part of my arguments and made compelling counter arguments. Then this would be an informed debate. Very central to this is how you really see the iPhone. Is it a real mobile phone made inhouse by Apple, is it a Apple branded phone made by one of the large players on the marked or is it a wireless handset to VoIP. Each of those solutions are VERY different and have its own problem and benefits. It would simplify the discussion if you told us how exactly you see the iPhone and not just pick the good parts of each solution. You could also clarify if you think it will be PDA like or not. In one post you say it won´t and in the next you suggest it could. Its a bit hard to discuss when the arguments are made out of pudding.
I found that he wasn't offering up anything, merely throwing out counter arguments that were merely the opposite of the quote. He wasn't exactly adding to his points and building the conversation in way that would have been possible if he had of analyzed the big picture and went from there.
I may not post much on AI, but I am aware it's sort of common to do that, I just didn't get where he was coming from and was looking to him actually writing what he thought, instead of counter points, as a better way to understand his overall opinion. I might be missing the obvious here.
P.S. I think I'll post here more as the folks at MacRumors seem to cluster and not have as much "discussion"'
---
Well, actually, I will first say that the lack of correlation between my post is because my opinion has changed by reading other people's thoughts. I guess why I should make clear is my opinion on what the iPod phone should be (So I'll make a list )
Focus still on the media
(First big thing) [Music, Photos, Movies]
iPod Simplicity Remains
[Maybe even a dual mode idea (one iPod one more complex with PDAness)]
PDA like abilities
This entails the basics but more 3rd party software support
Phone (of course)
Through VOIP or cell, I really don't know or care. I support whichever works best.
Why should Apple enter the market? What isn't tapped? The fact remains that the PDA market is a mess, and the Cellphone market is undefinable beyond the RAZR and that other new one (the new think motorola). The PDA market is trying to take the cellphone market and has failed. I think the iPod could evolve over the next generations into the best of all those worlds. Hell, it wouldn't be that hard if Apple got carriers; personally I can't see them running into problems since their brand is so strong and the carriers would love more subscriptions.
I see it having PDA-like functions, but not in such a clumsy way as most PDAs have morphed into. Jamming windows onto a micro-tablet (I guess Pocket PC) is a stupid idea. The OS needs to be unique. I think Apple could pull off making the best OS for these devices. It would be another extension of the great halo effect by bringing the Mac experience to the iPod.
P.S. I guess somethings I've said came out a bit wrong in terms of tone and what not, but I find this to be a respectable discussion as a whole, I just have had trouble putting together your perspective.
I'm not sure that they are migrating. They will be coming out with a 700P in a month or two. That's why I changed my mind about buying the HTC 6700 Windows Mobikle 5 phone. They are making good profits on the Treo 650. But, in order to get into parts of the corporate market, they felt the need for a Windows product as well.
I am pretty sure that Palm announced the migration to Pocket PC last year for Treos. But I surely hope you are right.
I'm sorry... it's like nails on a chalk board, it's market and not "marked"
Again, i'm sorry.
Quote:
"This is just too far out I quote everything you said, taking each argument one by one. I left none of what you said out, so you just cannot say I am "picking apart" or "targeting a few sentences here and there".
I would be hard pressed to come up with a more fair way to rebut your post. I know you want to make a compelling case for the iPhone. But each step has to make sense for it to work, just like the original iPod ("Is there an untapped marked?",
The main thing Apple would bring to an iPhone would be a new user interface. But the cellular market is truly walled gardens, unlike the broadband market, and even more so, as that market consolidates into a few major players. Yet Apple is moving in a way that could someday threaten the cable TV market (another walled gardens market). Based on this, I think if and when WiMax and other wireless MAN technologies get going, I could see Apple jumping in to mobile communications.
I believe Apple already has a set of criteria that would trigger it entering the mobile comm market (known only to very few inside Apple). Some criteria involve defense (protect the iPod/iTunes/iTMS). Another would be that all the technology is ready to enable a product that meets a threshold level of value to the consumer, including cost. For example, the iPod started life with "1000 songs in your pocket" for $400 and it's rumored that the "iPod video" will start with "100 movies in your pocket" (hopefully, for no more than $400). There's likely some such phrase and cost that captures a threshold value for an iPhone. Other parts: the size of the nano makes it seem possible to add phone capability and still be smaller than an iPod. The rumored touchscreen/clickwheel could enable phone keys to appear). But I think a viable alternative to cellular is the key piece.
Anyway, some other related things:
- Apple has trademarked the term "Mobile Me". What will that turn out to be?
There needs to be a new phone manufacturer. SOMEONE needs to invent a phone operating system that is user intuitive. Each different OS from each different company has its flaws and its difficulties. It is either too difficult to reach different parts of the system, or the system is so segmented in its quest to be easy that the different ability are lost on different sub-menus.
Also, there are an absurd amount of buttons on a phone that rarely do anything predictable and are not customizable enough to allow you to do what you want. Also, the damned internet buttons are ridiculously annoying to anyone who does not want to pay for GPRS. I do not want a button that costs me money to press, much less the two (Internet and Email) that I have on my RAZR.
I'm sorry... it's like nails on a chalk board, it's market and not "marked"
Again, i'm sorry.
OMG U R SOOO banned j/k
Here in a fucking dreamworld (and zenofobe paradise) english is only our second language. In dreamworld-speak the word for "market" is actually "marked". Words spelled almost the same causes most of my english misspellings (that and the grammar. But I have given up on correcting that).
What would you all (don't want to say "ya'll") prefer; a separate iPhone/PDA, a PDA, a iPhone, or a cluster of it all in the iPod?
I would prefer an advanced media player with bluetooth that would interact with my phone in a limited way: When my phone rang it would stop playing and give me the choice to channel the call through my iPod headset and call up via the address bookin the iPod. Simple and powerful and no need for keypad.
Out of curiosity, when will you start contributing beyond 2 liners?
-----
A bit hypocritical, but a short question from me:
What would you all (don't want to say "ya'll") prefer; a separate iPhone/PDA, a PDA, a iPhone, or a cluster of it all in the iPod?
iPhone/PDA
Palm got it pretty well . The implementation on the individual phones leaves something to be desired.
The Treo, for example has no built-in Graffiti. In a short time I became adept with that, and so has everyone else I know who uses Palm on a regular basis.
But, the tiny keys are horrible, and there are other problems the phone has.
Sadly, no one else has come up with a new Palm phone, though Treo will be coming up with a 700p shortly. The other manufacturers have just continued the older models. My Samsung i330, is pretty obsolete. It uses OS 3.53.
That's why I would like to see Apple come out with an OS X Lite phone. If they did this right, it would take many Palm users with it. Some Windows Mobile people would come as well, and many Mac and iPod users would move.
It would end up with the largest share of software and games. If Apple did email well, it could even give Blackberry a run for the money.
Why would anyone want to watch a movie on a 3" or 4" screen?
I said the same thing about wristwatches back in the late 18th century. Why would anyone want to tell the time on a tiny little clock-face that's an arm's length away when there's a perfectly good giant clock-face in town square!
And then, a few years ago, when they started putting LCD screens on trans-atlantic flights, I said "Who's gonna want to watch a movie on a tiny little 6" screen that's only a foot in front of your face!"
I've never, ever understood your question. I always suspect that people who ask it imagine hordes of video iPod owners placing their iPods on the hearth, trying to watch a movie on it from across the room.
Out of curiosity, when will you start contributing beyond 2 liners?
-----
A bit hypocritical, but a short question from me:
What would you all (don't want to say "ya'll") prefer; a separate iPhone/PDA, a PDA, a iPhone, or a cluster of it all in the iPod?
Didn't mean to irritate you, I'm mostly an observer of this great site and respect the opinions of the various posters.
Anders, thanks for being lenient this time. I will try to post something that is relevant in the future. In the mean time I will continue being an observer and refrain from correcting spelling mistakes [tail between the legs]
Comments
Originally posted by Myst
Just in advance, I find the picking apart of a post using quotes to be quite annoying as it implies that you aren't willing to put the effort forward to write a real rebuttal and simple want to target a few last sentences here and there, so please do try not to do that.
I really don't see what the problem is. It is better to do that than not quote or quote the complete post, for one, to better understand exactly what comment a person is responding. Discussions can get pretty complex, and I think that reduces the chances of a misunderstanding. If someone is quoting out of context, then I understand that can be an issue, but at least with that sort of quoting, it is easier to backtrack to see if there were any problems.
Originally posted by Anders
A PDA-like phone would make more sense than incorporating phone functionality into the iPod. But it would have to be just one function of the PDA, not its strongest selling point
Melgross: Do you know Palm is migrating to Windows OS? I think its sad but its a consequense of a non-profitable marked.
Even if the OS of a possible Apple PDA would be build upon X it would most likely only be the low level foundation they shared. The GUI would have to be very different and stuff like pen input would have to be heavily integrated into the OS, like in the newton and VERY unlike the WIndows used for the Origami project.
I'm not sure that they are migrating. They will be coming out with a 700P in a month or two. That's why I changed my mind about buying the HTC 6700 Windows Mobikle 5 phone. They are making good profits on the Treo 650. But, in order to get into parts of the corporate market, they felt the need for a Windows product as well.
Remember that Palm no longer owns the OS.
That's the major reason why I don't think they will buy Palm. They could have bought the OS before Access did, but didn't.
Originally posted by Myst
Just in advance, I find the picking apart of a post using quotes to be quite annoying as it implies that you aren't willing to put the effort forward to write a real rebuttal and simple want to target a few last sentences here and there, so please do try not to do that.
This is just too far out
I would be hard pressed to come up with a more fair way to rebut your post. I know you want to make a compelling case for the iPhone. But each step has to make sense for it to work, just like the original iPod ("Is there an untapped marked?", "Can we add anything meaningful the products already out there?", "Will we need coorporation off other players?", "Through what channels are we going to sell it?", "Could our money be spent more wisely?"). Thats why it is most logic to look at each step of your reasoning and not deal with it as a whole.
Had I commented on your post as a whole it would have been some variant of "I don´t think its a good idea" or "this will never work" without providing any real arguments for it. Then you would have something to complain about.
Therefore I would have liked you to take each part of my arguments and made compelling counter arguments. Then this would be an informed debate. Very central to this is how you really see the iPhone. Is it a real mobile phone made inhouse by Apple, is it a Apple branded phone made by one of the large players on the marked or is it a wireless handset to VoIP. Each of those solutions are VERY different and have its own problem and benefits. It would simplify the discussion if you told us how exactly you see the iPhone and not just pick the good parts of each solution. You could also clarify if you think it will be PDA like or not. In one post you say it won´t and in the next you suggest it could. Its a bit hard to discuss when the arguments are made out of pudding.
I found that he wasn't offering up anything, merely throwing out counter arguments that were merely the opposite of the quote. He wasn't exactly adding to his points and building the conversation in way that would have been possible if he had of analyzed the big picture and went from there.
I may not post much on AI, but I am aware it's sort of common to do that, I just didn't get where he was coming from and was looking to him actually writing what he thought, instead of counter points, as a better way to understand his overall opinion. I might be missing the obvious here.
P.S. I think I'll post here more as the folks at MacRumors seem to cluster and not have as much "discussion"'
---
Well, actually, I will first say that the lack of correlation between my post is because my opinion has changed by reading other people's thoughts. I guess why I should make clear is my opinion on what the iPod phone should be (So I'll make a list
- Focus still on the media
- iPod Simplicity Remains
- PDA like abilities
- Phone (of course)
Why should Apple enter the market? What isn't tapped? The fact remains that the PDA market is a mess, and the Cellphone market is undefinable beyond the RAZR and that other new one (the new think motorola). The PDA market is trying to take the cellphone market and has failed. I think the iPod could evolve over the next generations into the best of all those worlds. Hell, it wouldn't be that hard if Apple got carriers; personally I can't see them running into problems since their brand is so strong and the carriers would love more subscriptions.(First big thing) [Music, Photos, Movies]
[Maybe even a dual mode idea (one iPod one more complex with PDAness)]
This entails the basics but more 3rd party software support
Through VOIP or cell, I really don't know or care. I support whichever works best.
I see it having PDA-like functions, but not in such a clumsy way as most PDAs have morphed into. Jamming windows onto a micro-tablet (I guess Pocket PC) is a stupid idea. The OS needs to be unique. I think Apple could pull off making the best OS for these devices. It would be another extension of the great halo effect by bringing the Mac experience to the iPod.
P.S. I guess somethings I've said came out a bit wrong in terms of tone and what not, but I find this to be a respectable discussion as a whole, I just have had trouble putting together your perspective.
Originally posted by melgross
I'm not sure that they are migrating. They will be coming out with a 700P in a month or two. That's why I changed my mind about buying the HTC 6700 Windows Mobikle 5 phone. They are making good profits on the Treo 650. But, in order to get into parts of the corporate market, they felt the need for a Windows product as well.
I am pretty sure that Palm announced the migration to Pocket PC last year for Treos. But I surely hope you are right.
Originally posted by Anders
I am pretty sure that Palm announced the migration to Pocket PC last year for Treos. But I surely hope you are right.
It isn't migrate. It's "adding to". It's an additional product. As it didn't get great reviews, we don't know how well it will sell either.
Again, i'm sorry.
"This is just too far out
I would be hard pressed to come up with a more fair way to rebut your post. I know you want to make a compelling case for the iPhone. But each step has to make sense for it to work, just like the original iPod ("Is there an untapped marked?",
Originally posted by Zoso2
I'm sorry... it's like nails on a chalk board, it's market and not "marked"
Again, i'm sorry.
Perhaps you shouldn't be criticizing our moderator your very first post?
Originally posted by melgross
Perhaps you shouldn't be criticizing our moderator your very first post?
That's why he changed his name....so who is he REALLY?
I believe Apple already has a set of criteria that would trigger it entering the mobile comm market (known only to very few inside Apple). Some criteria involve defense (protect the iPod/iTunes/iTMS). Another would be that all the technology is ready to enable a product that meets a threshold level of value to the consumer, including cost. For example, the iPod started life with "1000 songs in your pocket" for $400 and it's rumored that the "iPod video" will start with "100 movies in your pocket" (hopefully, for no more than $400). There's likely some such phrase and cost that captures a threshold value for an iPhone. Other parts: the size of the nano makes it seem possible to add phone capability and still be smaller than an iPod. The rumored touchscreen/clickwheel could enable phone keys to appear). But I think a viable alternative to cellular is the key piece.
Anyway, some other related things:
- Apple has trademarked the term "Mobile Me". What will that turn out to be?
- Apple does have iChat. Where does it lead to?
Also, there are an absurd amount of buttons on a phone that rarely do anything predictable and are not customizable enough to allow you to do what you want. Also, the damned internet buttons are ridiculously annoying to anyone who does not want to pay for GPRS. I do not want a button that costs me money to press, much less the two (Internet and Email) that I have on my RAZR.
Originally posted by melgross
Perhaps you shouldn't be criticizing our moderator your very first post?
You're right... [spanks himself]
In my defense, I did say I was sorry.
Originally posted by Zoso2
You're right... [spanks himself]
In my defense, I did say I was sorry.
Out of curiosity, when will you start contributing beyond 2 liners?
-----
A bit hypocritical, but a short question from me:
What would you all (don't want to say "ya'll") prefer; a separate iPhone/PDA, a PDA, a iPhone, or a cluster of it all in the iPod?
Originally posted by Zoso2
I'm sorry... it's like nails on a chalk board, it's market and not "marked"
Again, i'm sorry.
OMG U R SOOO banned
Here in a fucking dreamworld (and zenofobe paradise) english is only our second language. In dreamworld-speak the word for "market" is actually "marked". Words spelled almost the same causes most of my english misspellings (that and the grammar. But I have given up on correcting that).
Originally posted by Myst
A bit hypocritical, but a short question from me:
What would you all (don't want to say "ya'll") prefer; a separate iPhone/PDA, a PDA, a iPhone, or a cluster of it all in the iPod?
I would prefer an advanced media player with bluetooth that would interact with my phone in a limited way: When my phone rang it would stop playing and give me the choice to channel the call through my iPod headset and call up via the address bookin the iPod. Simple and powerful and no need for keypad.
Originally posted by Myst
Out of curiosity, when will you start contributing beyond 2 liners?
-----
A bit hypocritical, but a short question from me:
What would you all (don't want to say "ya'll") prefer; a separate iPhone/PDA, a PDA, a iPhone, or a cluster of it all in the iPod?
iPhone/PDA
Palm got it pretty well . The implementation on the individual phones leaves something to be desired.
The Treo, for example has no built-in Graffiti. In a short time I became adept with that, and so has everyone else I know who uses Palm on a regular basis.
But, the tiny keys are horrible, and there are other problems the phone has.
Sadly, no one else has come up with a new Palm phone, though Treo will be coming up with a 700p shortly. The other manufacturers have just continued the older models. My Samsung i330, is pretty obsolete. It uses OS 3.53.
That's why I would like to see Apple come out with an OS X Lite phone. If they did this right, it would take many Palm users with it. Some Windows Mobile people would come as well, and many Mac and iPod users would move.
It would end up with the largest share of software and games. If Apple did email well, it could even give Blackberry a run for the money.
Originally posted by krispie
Why would anyone want to watch a movie on a 3" or 4" screen?
I said the same thing about wristwatches back in the late 18th century. Why would anyone want to tell the time on a tiny little clock-face that's an arm's length away when there's a perfectly good giant clock-face in town square!
And then, a few years ago, when they started putting LCD screens on trans-atlantic flights, I said "Who's gonna want to watch a movie on a tiny little 6" screen that's only a foot in front of your face!"
I've never, ever understood your question. I always suspect that people who ask it imagine hordes of video iPod owners placing their iPods on the hearth, trying to watch a movie on it from across the room.
Originally posted by Myst
Out of curiosity, when will you start contributing beyond 2 liners?
-----
A bit hypocritical, but a short question from me:
What would you all (don't want to say "ya'll") prefer; a separate iPhone/PDA, a PDA, a iPhone, or a cluster of it all in the iPod?
Didn't mean to irritate you, I'm mostly an observer of this great site and respect the opinions of the various posters.
Anders, thanks for being lenient this time. I will try to post something that is relevant in the future. In the mean time I will continue being an observer and refrain from correcting spelling mistakes [tail between the legs]
More than two lines!!
Originally posted by European guy
Very nice. The equipment looks like Quad. Is that what you like?
For those who are laughing, yes, I know it's a computer mock.