I don't see why the music from all the stores be interoperable with all other players and vice versa. Records, CDs, Tapes, and 8Tracks, were all inoperable with their players from different manufacturers. The fact that I could purchese a music cd and play it in any compact disc player is great.
While I am not an expert (far from it really) on Monopolistic laws, I know that in America tie-in sales are considered against the law (this is what they claimed MS was doing with media player and IE) if you buy an iPod you can only use ITMS, and if you buy from iTMS it's only usable on an iPod. Seems pretty close to a tie-in sale to me.
Not directly related to music, but I have both region 1 and region 2 DVD's. It's a PAIN to play them both on my computer, because it's limited to 5 "switches". They both cost about the same, so the reason I have both regions isn't cost, it's just that it happened that way, e.g. I was somewhere else and bought a DVD, or a friend gifted me a DVD, and so on.
...
Now why hasn't France outlawed the whole region encoding scheme for DVDs? Doesn't it get in the way of being able to play my DVDs on any DVD player (once the 5 switches are up)?
Really, I'm amazed by the number of people jumping to the defence of DRM. DRM sucks. Apple do not need it to be successful, the quality of the iPod/iTunes combination will do that.
What if I want to play my iTunes purchased songs on an iPod and something else (like a Roku, Sonos or Sony Ericsson Mobile)? Ever thought of that? Why should I have to suffer quality degredation just because Apple refuse to licence Fairplay to anyone else?
I think DRM is bad from the consumer point of view. My issue is that France is singling out just one instance but not all the others. Like why can't I play DRM-protected WMA music, including subscriptions, on my Mac? Computers are music players, too.
Anyway, here are your choices:
1. Don't buy songs from iTMS. Buy CDs or buy from eMusic.
2. Don't buy a Roku, Sonos or Sony Ericsson Mobile.
Either you like the iPod enough to use the Apple system (iPod, iTunes, iTMS, ROKR/SLVR, iPod accessories, Mac, PC, iPod Hi-Fi) or don't. If the market didn't like it, the iPod and iTMS would suffer and die. But the market has clearly indicated that they don't mind or at least that the alternatives aren't better.
I hate it when the government thinks consumers are stupid and have to be protected from themselves. Because more often than not, the government is stupid and the consumers have to protect themselves from the government.
how the heck would getting out of the French market even work? I assume people have already purchased songs with the DRM embedded. I guess those sales would be "grandfathered" in. Now, what about purchasing songs in other countries, and then moving there? As far as I can tell, you still have to authorize your local copy of iTunes in order to play and burn the DRM'd music tracks to CD.
i don't like DRM in general, but it seemed like FairPlay was the one common-ground DRM that consumers and companies could agree upon that still allowed something RESEMBLING ownership. I'm just not understanding why this has become such a huge issue for France. Are they planning to invade a country and need something to distract the populace? (*ahem*sarcasm*cough*)
Maybe this can push Apple away for a while and return to France with a new dedicated DRM that do not affect its actual coding. I dont know any numbers of the iTunes store in France but I know Apple wont invest on it if it wasnt a good deal.
I think that is wrong that a Goverment force any company to change the way a product works (only if avoid phisical harm to consumers its good, imo)
Ipod + iTunes store its a choice and its a complete structure and ecosystem that no authority has the right to intervene. It attempts against products that prevent piracy and encourage legal downloads and behavior.
The heck with France. I'd love to see Apple just pull out of France....then you'll hear France do what they do best.....whine. France needs itunes more then Apple needs France.
LOL, yeah the day Apple pulls out of France the country is going to pieces. Did the baaad frenchies step on the toes of a poooor american corporation? No need to cry, there is your lollypop
Seriously, I have yet to see a more boneheaded nationalist than you. As a consumer, I do not profit in any way from any DRM solution.
What if Apple stops selling iPods 10 years down the road like they stopped selling printers? Bang, all the music you "bought" is gone. What if the competition develops a better player? a smaller, cheaper, whatever? You are locked in if you bought at iTMS.
If the market is unable to solve this due to a cartel of large labels and a by far domineering company unwilling to license out its DRM, then it is only just that the legislature intervenes.
I think DRM is bad from the consumer point of view. My issue is that France is singling out just one instance but not all the others. Like why can't I play DRM-protected WMA music, including subscriptions, on my Mac?
You got that wrong. The french law covers all DRM-crippled content. So, yes, MS will have to open up too if it is enacted.
While I am not an expert (far from it really) on Monopolistic laws, I know that in America tie-in sales are considered against the law (this is what they claimed MS was doing with media player and IE) if you buy an iPod you can only use ITMS, and if you buy from iTMS it's only usable on an iPod. Seems pretty close to a tie-in sale to me.
This law is definately needed.
Your definition of tie-in sales is wrong. MS, which had a monopoly in OS, refused to sell its OS to its hardware partners unless they only included IE and did not include Netscape on the desktop.
Apple does not have a monopoly in music sales (CDs are part of music sales) or music players (remember computers are music players). They have no hardware partners. They are not making unfair conditions on any other mfr.
Apple is selling a music system consisting of an iPod, a computer running iTunes, and optionally, iTMS. Your sources of music are CDs, piracy, anyplace selling unprotected music (MP3, AAC, WMA), or iTMS.
I think DRM is bad from the consumer point of view. My issue is that France is singling out just one instance but not all the others. Like why can't I play DRM-protected WMA music, including subscriptions, on my Mac? Computers are music players, too.
They have not singled out iTunes. The law (which is flawed in many other ways, I'm arguing against DRM here, not pro the entire French bill) is seeking inter-operability of all DRM schemes, in that Microsoft, Apple etc. will have to licence their DRM scheme to anybody that wants it. In this way, someone (Flip4Mac, perhaps) could easily write software to play DRM WMA on a Mac.
Quote:
Originally posted by mark2005
1. Don't buy songs from iTMS. Buy CDs or buy from eMusic.
You have got to be kidding me. The whole point of the music store is that it provides things that those "alternatives" do not. Such as the ability to purchase only one track from an album (vs. CD), and purchase music from a much wider selection (vs. eMusic).
Quote:
Originally posted by mark2005
2. Don't buy a Roku, Sonos
I really don't get why this is so hard for you to grasp. The Roku and Sonos are not iPod alternatives. They have completely different usage, they are not built to perform the same task. There is nothing in the Apple ecosystem that does what they do. It is flat-out dumb that if I've decided that iTunes+iPod is the best portable music solution, that I then can't use the files purchased from iTunes on devices that Apple doesn't even make competitors for.
While I have purchased a number of songs from the iTunes music store, because it's just so damn convenient, because of problems with the DRM I have run into, I am boycotting iTMS until they remove the DRM. I want to give them money, but if they don't want it...
But still, that doesn't really change that regular CD stores are way more expensive...
On a related note... I was already annoyed by the fact that iTMS doesn't sell their music as AIFF, and let's you decide how to rip the tunes.
When iPods no longer exist your music is gone... and when a better compression format is invented, your old MP3s, MP4s whatevers will be of "lesser" quality.
At first MP3 compression was a benefit. But from something that could bring the industry further, it's now being used as restrictive and a hindre to innovation.
This is not about conusmer protection, or consumer rights. This is about France trying to protect native companies from competition. Apple will pull it's music store from France, and that is exactly what French politicians, backed by French companies eager to fill the void, want.
Protectionist policies veiled as consumer protection.
I say we boycott all things French, and start calling them freedom fries again.
Comments
They did it the wrong way. They should have made it legal to removed DRM and not forced sellers of music to support all players.
While I am not an expert (far from it really) on Monopolistic laws, I know that in America tie-in sales are considered against the law (this is what they claimed MS was doing with media player and IE) if you buy an iPod you can only use ITMS, and if you buy from iTMS it's only usable on an iPod. Seems pretty close to a tie-in sale to me.
This law is definately needed.
Originally posted by Robin Hood
Not directly related to music, but I have both region 1 and region 2 DVD's. It's a PAIN to play them both on my computer, because it's limited to 5 "switches". They both cost about the same, so the reason I have both regions isn't cost, it's just that it happened that way, e.g. I was somewhere else and bought a DVD, or a friend gifted me a DVD, and so on.
...
Now why hasn't France outlawed the whole region encoding scheme for DVDs? Doesn't it get in the way of being able to play my DVDs on any DVD player (once the 5 switches are up)?
What hypocrisy...
Originally posted by Mr. H
The massive loss in sound quality?
Really, I'm amazed by the number of people jumping to the defence of DRM. DRM sucks. Apple do not need it to be successful, the quality of the iPod/iTunes combination will do that.
What if I want to play my iTunes purchased songs on an iPod and something else (like a Roku, Sonos or Sony Ericsson Mobile)? Ever thought of that? Why should I have to suffer quality degredation just because Apple refuse to licence Fairplay to anyone else?
I think DRM is bad from the consumer point of view. My issue is that France is singling out just one instance but not all the others. Like why can't I play DRM-protected WMA music, including subscriptions, on my Mac? Computers are music players, too.
Anyway, here are your choices:
1. Don't buy songs from iTMS. Buy CDs or buy from eMusic.
2. Don't buy a Roku, Sonos or Sony Ericsson Mobile.
Either you like the iPod enough to use the Apple system (iPod, iTunes, iTMS, ROKR/SLVR, iPod accessories, Mac, PC, iPod Hi-Fi) or don't. If the market didn't like it, the iPod and iTMS would suffer and die. But the market has clearly indicated that they don't mind or at least that the alternatives aren't better.
I hate it when the government thinks consumers are stupid and have to be protected from themselves. Because more often than not, the government is stupid and the consumers have to protect themselves from the government.
i don't like DRM in general, but it seemed like FairPlay was the one common-ground DRM that consumers and companies could agree upon that still allowed something RESEMBLING ownership. I'm just not understanding why this has become such a huge issue for France. Are they planning to invade a country and need something to distract the populace? (*ahem*sarcasm*cough*)
I think that is wrong that a Goverment force any company to change the way a product works (only if avoid phisical harm to consumers its good, imo)
Ipod + iTunes store its a choice and its a complete structure and ecosystem that no authority has the right to intervene. It attempts against products that prevent piracy and encourage legal downloads and behavior.
IMO
Originally posted by faithfulFrank
The heck with France. I'd love to see Apple just pull out of France....then you'll hear France do what they do best.....whine. France needs itunes more then Apple needs France.
LOL, yeah the day Apple pulls out of France the country is going to pieces. Did the baaad frenchies step on the toes of a poooor american corporation? No need to cry, there is your lollypop
Seriously, I have yet to see a more boneheaded nationalist than you. As a consumer, I do not profit in any way from any DRM solution.
What if Apple stops selling iPods 10 years down the road like they stopped selling printers? Bang, all the music you "bought" is gone. What if the competition develops a better player? a smaller, cheaper, whatever? You are locked in if you bought at iTMS.
If the market is unable to solve this due to a cartel of large labels and a by far domineering company unwilling to license out its DRM, then it is only just that the legislature intervenes.
1. Close the French iTMS
or
2. Host is offshore so that the French do not have jurisdiction.
If they go with option 2 then they won't need to charge VAT either
Originally posted by mark2005
I think DRM is bad from the consumer point of view. My issue is that France is singling out just one instance but not all the others. Like why can't I play DRM-protected WMA music, including subscriptions, on my Mac?
You got that wrong. The french law covers all DRM-crippled content. So, yes, MS will have to open up too if it is enacted.
Originally posted by scavanger
...
While I am not an expert (far from it really) on Monopolistic laws, I know that in America tie-in sales are considered against the law (this is what they claimed MS was doing with media player and IE) if you buy an iPod you can only use ITMS, and if you buy from iTMS it's only usable on an iPod. Seems pretty close to a tie-in sale to me.
This law is definately needed.
Your definition of tie-in sales is wrong. MS, which had a monopoly in OS, refused to sell its OS to its hardware partners unless they only included IE and did not include Netscape on the desktop.
Apple does not have a monopoly in music sales (CDs are part of music sales) or music players (remember computers are music players). They have no hardware partners. They are not making unfair conditions on any other mfr.
Apple is selling a music system consisting of an iPod, a computer running iTunes, and optionally, iTMS. Your sources of music are CDs, piracy, anyplace selling unprotected music (MP3, AAC, WMA), or iTMS.
There is a 11th Commandment that reads
" Thou shall do everything opposite the French do ! "
So, this is good news. Thank God for the French to lead us when in doubt..
Originally posted by mark2005
I think DRM is bad from the consumer point of view. My issue is that France is singling out just one instance but not all the others. Like why can't I play DRM-protected WMA music, including subscriptions, on my Mac? Computers are music players, too.
They have not singled out iTunes. The law (which is flawed in many other ways, I'm arguing against DRM here, not pro the entire French bill) is seeking inter-operability of all DRM schemes, in that Microsoft, Apple etc. will have to licence their DRM scheme to anybody that wants it. In this way, someone (Flip4Mac, perhaps) could easily write software to play DRM WMA on a Mac.
Originally posted by mark2005
1. Don't buy songs from iTMS. Buy CDs or buy from eMusic.
You have got to be kidding me. The whole point of the music store is that it provides things that those "alternatives" do not. Such as the ability to purchase only one track from an album (vs. CD), and purchase music from a much wider selection (vs. eMusic).
Originally posted by mark2005
2. Don't buy a Roku, Sonos
I really don't get why this is so hard for you to grasp. The Roku and Sonos are not iPod alternatives. They have completely different usage, they are not built to perform the same task. There is nothing in the Apple ecosystem that does what they do. It is flat-out dumb that if I've decided that iTunes+iPod is the best portable music solution, that I then can't use the files purchased from iTunes on devices that Apple doesn't even make competitors for.
"the law has yet to be debated and approved by the Senate--a process that would not begin until at least May"
Apple will offer no comment until there is reason to act.
French congressional action will wither and not stand the scrutiny of legal review.
Originally posted by mark2005
1. Don't buy songs from iTMS. Buy CDs or buy from eMusic.
Except that in most of Europe (I think, at least where I live) CDs are twice as expensive than in the US
Originally posted by Addison
Well there are two things Apple can do.
1. Close the French iTMS
or
2. Host is offshore so that the French do not have jurisdiction.
If they go with option 2 then they won't need to charge VAT either
All European iTMS stores are, and have been from the start, operated in Luxembourg. Not in France.
So that argument is moot.
Originally posted by SMQT
Except that in most of Europe (I think, at least where I live) CDs are twice as expensive than in the US
www.gemm.com
http://www.allofmp3.com
While I have purchased a number of songs from the iTunes music store, because it's just so damn convenient, because of problems with the DRM I have run into, I am boycotting iTMS until they remove the DRM. I want to give them money, but if they don't want it...
Originally posted by Anders
www.gemm.com
Thanks for the link.
But still, that doesn't really change that regular CD stores are way more expensive...
On a related note... I was already annoyed by the fact that iTMS doesn't sell their music as AIFF, and let's you decide how to rip the tunes.
When iPods no longer exist your music is gone... and when a better compression format is invented, your old MP3s, MP4s whatevers will be of "lesser" quality.
At first MP3 compression was a benefit. But from something that could bring the industry further, it's now being used as restrictive and a hindre to innovation.
Protectionist policies veiled as consumer protection.
I say we boycott all things French, and start calling them freedom fries again.