This thread has turned into a dead horse. How many times can we debate the same thing with the same answers?
O/S 2... already brought up and solved. IBM didn't push O/S 2... Not enough O/S 2 developers... etc etc etc.
Booting into windows comments... MOST people aren't going to go buy windows to run on a mac. They bought a mac for a mac. So that developer will only get a very niche market on the mac.
I use Fedora Core 5, Mac OS X, AND windows. I have 2 machines... a pb and a custom built machine that I built. I have already decided I am NOT installing anything other than OS X on my mac machines. For security reasons, for principal, harddrive space, and to avoid corruption. Most notably... PRINCIPAL... If only a fraction of users put windows on their macs... developers will NEVER EVER EVER EVER be able to say... ok mac user... u suck, boot into windows. Make a damn stand. Wow. You guys act like this is the end of the world. This isn't a clone situation. This isn't an O/S 2 situation. This isn't even another conversion situation. We use os x, we will always use an apple os. Period point blank. I know tons of pc developers that have wanted to develop for os x but couldn't afford the machines. Now they can. So get ready for even more developers than we had before.
[i]I know tons of pc developers that have wanted to develop for os x but couldn't afford the machines. Now they can. So get ready for even more developers than we had before. [/B]
Hobbyist, professional, intermediate, beginning.. it doesn't matter what kind of developer is switching to mac as long as it is mac.
About the only reason to switch to a mac professionaly is because market share might be trending up. Buying a dev box is not a very large barrier to entry.
Learning to code for the Mac is a larger barrier unless you have a cross-platform UI environment like Java or Torque Game Engine/Torque 2D. Both of which I could do on my old Quicksilver. The new mini is a far more acceptable dev box except for AAA games devs.
Yeah, that'd be the hobbyist crowd, not the professional developers.
Yeah, shareware and freeware. I just contributed to one who is trying to upgrade a free program (Applejack), but hasn't the money for an Intel system. We're trying to get him a Mini.
Has anyone been able to get the OEM version working?, ive been told you have to go out and purchase a retail version of xp with sp2?, ouch thats damm expensive!
Has anyone been able to get the OEM version working?, ive been told you have to go out and purchase a retail version of xp with sp2?, ouch thats damm expensive!
Who said that? I'm not aware of any difference, other than the packaging, and that MS won't support it for free, the way they will with the retail version.
Yeah, that'd be the hobbyist crowd, not the professional developers.
Actually, it's quite a few of the current Mac indie developers who scrape by writing cool software without big budget funding. Panic, Delicious Monster, Ranchero...
All those guys started with no money and now make a living.
I actually think indie developers have a much better time of it than indie Windows developers. There's more of a culture of buying software with Mac users than Windows and more of a culture of not accepting the crap the big companies throw out at you.
If Bootcamp lets more indies start up because they can cross develop then it'll be really worthwhile. Apple giving away XCode was also one of the most insightful things I've ever seen from a computer company in fostering development.
....Apple giving away XCode was also one of the most insightful things I've ever seen from a computer company in fostering development.
Excellent point. Seeing all the ads for M$ Visual Studio 2005 or whatever is a real contrast to Apple saying here's a great OS, here's XCode, go forth and be fruitful.
....Apple giving away XCode was also one of the most insightful things I've ever seen from a computer company in fostering development.
Excellent point. Seeing all the ads for M$ Visual Studio 2005 or whatever is a real contrast to Apple saying here's a great OS, here's XCode, go forth and be fruitful.
Having used both MS VS is cheap for what it does. MS did not stint on providing good dev tools at an affordable price in comparison to the unix ide pricing when it first came out (hundreds vs thousands). In comparison to Eclipse or XCode, yes it's pricey but VS Express 2005 is free for a single language too.
That's good enough for most hobbiests.
VS 2005 + MSDN Premium 1 yr sub ($1800) straddles the pricing between ADC Select ($500) and ADC Premium ($3500).
Having used both MS VS is cheap for what it does. MS did not stint on providing good dev tools at an affordable price in comparison to the unix ide pricing when it first came out (hundreds vs thousands). In comparison to Eclipse or XCode, yes it's pricey but VS Express 2005 is free for a single language too.
That's good enough for most hobbiests.
VS 2005 + MSDN Premium 1 yr sub ($1800) straddles the pricing between ADC Select ($500) and ADC Premium ($3500).
Vinea
Having used Both MS VS (VS Pro 6 - through VS Pro 2005) and Developer tools (project builder through Xcode)... I enjoy XCode more. When I use MS VS I'm always doing MFC Applications. When I use XCode I'm doing carbon or cocoa projects. XCode is more robust, makes sense the way things are laid out, and is just as flexible to the needs of the language and needs of the developer. I think VS 2005 is huge overkill. M$ tried to kill too many birds with 1 stone. I actually feel more comfortable on .net 2003 than 2005. Either way, It's all a matter of flavor to the dev. I happen to feel FREE is a great price. And what does ADC / MSDN really get you??? A few tech support calls? Some hardware discounts (ADC)?? Beta updates??? We're comparing IDE's, not developer services.
How many seats is that MS Premium sub? (He asks, being too lazy and too late for a meeting to look it up himself...)
Just 1. That's the renewal price...the new Subscription price is $2299.95. Certainly that's more than XCode + Select and you don't get some of the nice bennies as Primere but eh.
It costs me more to learn ObjectiveC/Cocoa than $2K + iMac in terms of time and effort.
Comments
Originally posted by Kickaha
You ever notice how you never see Lara's teeth?
It's better that way.
O/S 2... already brought up and solved. IBM didn't push O/S 2... Not enough O/S 2 developers... etc etc etc.
Booting into windows comments... MOST people aren't going to go buy windows to run on a mac. They bought a mac for a mac. So that developer will only get a very niche market on the mac.
I use Fedora Core 5, Mac OS X, AND windows. I have 2 machines... a pb and a custom built machine that I built. I have already decided I am NOT installing anything other than OS X on my mac machines. For security reasons, for principal, harddrive space, and to avoid corruption. Most notably... PRINCIPAL... If only a fraction of users put windows on their macs... developers will NEVER EVER EVER EVER be able to say... ok mac user... u suck, boot into windows. Make a damn stand. Wow. You guys act like this is the end of the world. This isn't a clone situation. This isn't an O/S 2 situation. This isn't even another conversion situation. We use os x, we will always use an apple os. Period point blank. I know tons of pc developers that have wanted to develop for os x but couldn't afford the machines. Now they can. So get ready for even more developers than we had before.
I AM DONE with this thread.
[i]I know tons of pc developers that have wanted to develop for os x but couldn't afford the machines. Now they can. So get ready for even more developers than we had before. [/B]
Developers with margins of sub-$5000?
Originally posted by Placebo
Developers with margins of sub-$5000?
Keyword would be budget....... IE money approved by their managers to get a mac.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yeah, that'd be the hobbyist crowd, not the professional developers.
Hobbyist, professional, intermediate, beginning.. it doesn't matter what kind of developer is switching to mac as long as it is mac.
Originally posted by emig647
Hobbyist, professional, intermediate, beginning.. it doesn't matter what kind of developer is switching to mac as long as it is mac.
About the only reason to switch to a mac professionaly is because market share might be trending up. Buying a dev box is not a very large barrier to entry.
Learning to code for the Mac is a larger barrier unless you have a cross-platform UI environment like Java or Torque Game Engine/Torque 2D. Both of which I could do on my old Quicksilver. The new mini is a far more acceptable dev box except for AAA games devs.
Vinea
devs don't usually go for that. Either way, most devs are still under budget from their company... unless they are an intermediate or hobbyist dev...
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yeah, that'd be the hobbyist crowd, not the professional developers.
Yeah, shareware and freeware. I just contributed to one who is trying to upgrade a free program (Applejack), but hasn't the money for an Intel system. We're trying to get him a Mini.
Originally posted by hasapi
Has anyone been able to get the OEM version working?, ive been told you have to go out and purchase a retail version of xp with sp2?, ouch thats damm expensive!
Who said that? I'm not aware of any difference, other than the packaging, and that MS won't support it for free, the way they will with the retail version.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Yeah, that'd be the hobbyist crowd, not the professional developers.
Actually, it's quite a few of the current Mac indie developers who scrape by writing cool software without big budget funding. Panic, Delicious Monster, Ranchero...
All those guys started with no money and now make a living.
I actually think indie developers have a much better time of it than indie Windows developers. There's more of a culture of buying software with Mac users than Windows and more of a culture of not accepting the crap the big companies throw out at you.
If Bootcamp lets more indies start up because they can cross develop then it'll be really worthwhile. Apple giving away XCode was also one of the most insightful things I've ever seen from a computer company in fostering development.
....Apple giving away XCode was also one of the most insightful things I've ever seen from a computer company in fostering development.
Excellent point. Seeing all the ads for M$ Visual Studio 2005 or whatever is a real contrast to Apple saying here's a great OS, here's XCode, go forth and be fruitful.
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by aegisdesign
....Apple giving away XCode was also one of the most insightful things I've ever seen from a computer company in fostering development.
Excellent point. Seeing all the ads for M$ Visual Studio 2005 or whatever is a real contrast to Apple saying here's a great OS, here's XCode, go forth and be fruitful.
Having used both MS VS is cheap for what it does. MS did not stint on providing good dev tools at an affordable price in comparison to the unix ide pricing when it first came out (hundreds vs thousands). In comparison to Eclipse or XCode, yes it's pricey but VS Express 2005 is free for a single language too.
That's good enough for most hobbiests.
VS 2005 + MSDN Premium 1 yr sub ($1800) straddles the pricing between ADC Select ($500) and ADC Premium ($3500).
Vinea
Originally posted by vinea
Having used both MS VS is cheap for what it does. MS did not stint on providing good dev tools at an affordable price in comparison to the unix ide pricing when it first came out (hundreds vs thousands). In comparison to Eclipse or XCode, yes it's pricey but VS Express 2005 is free for a single language too.
That's good enough for most hobbiests.
VS 2005 + MSDN Premium 1 yr sub ($1800) straddles the pricing between ADC Select ($500) and ADC Premium ($3500).
Vinea
Having used Both MS VS (VS Pro 6 - through VS Pro 2005) and Developer tools (project builder through Xcode)... I enjoy XCode more. When I use MS VS I'm always doing MFC Applications. When I use XCode I'm doing carbon or cocoa projects. XCode is more robust, makes sense the way things are laid out, and is just as flexible to the needs of the language and needs of the developer. I think VS 2005 is huge overkill. M$ tried to kill too many birds with 1 stone. I actually feel more comfortable on .net 2003 than 2005. Either way, It's all a matter of flavor to the dev. I happen to feel FREE is a great price. And what does ADC / MSDN really get you??? A few tech support calls? Some hardware discounts (ADC)?? Beta updates??? We're comparing IDE's, not developer services.
Originally posted by vinea
VS 2005 + MSDN Premium 1 yr sub ($1800) straddles the pricing between ADC Select ($500) and ADC Premium ($3500).
Never seen the point in ADC membership. The stuff you need is free with a normal ADC membership.
Saying that, recently you can make back the $500 from ADC membership on a MacBookPro purchase through ADC so even that is essentially free.
Originally posted by Kickaha
How many seats is that MS Premium sub? (He asks, being too lazy and too late for a meeting to look it up himself...)
Just 1. That's the renewal price...the new Subscription price is $2299.95. Certainly that's more than XCode + Select and you don't get some of the nice bennies as Primere but eh.
It costs me more to learn ObjectiveC/Cocoa than $2K + iMac in terms of time and effort.
Vinea