Yeah, I just don't see how AMD is going to perform well in the long term...
Some very good points here. AMD is in its best position now with the Pentium 4 Netburst still milling about and Athlon kicking ass and Sempron cleaning up the low-end. But those 65nm Cores are around the corner and when prices and availability start happening things may not look so good for Athlon. Conroe [Core 2 and Core 2 Extreme] will start getting into the enthusiast and enterprise space that the Athlon and Athlon X2's are enjoying.
Performance-per-watt in the server space is definitely favouring AMD Opterons over Xeons but that will be for 1 year max then Woodcrests will probably demolish the Opterons in performance and performance-per-watt.
In the mobile space Yonah and Merom are taking off and a large number of manufacturers are continuing to build on the strong Centrino and Centrino Duo brand.
Looking ahead there's only the M2 platform thingy for the Athlon which is support for DDR2 and AFAIK I don't know what else...
AMD has got to be doing some major R&D through 2006 otherwise in 2007 Intel will clean up the mobile, enterprise and enthusiast space, leaving only the crumbs of the low-end of the market
Very little of Dell's problems have to do with AMD vs Intel, even though some like to believe that...
Right now with Dell, HP, and Lenovo duking it out on razor thin margins I'm not really sure how they decide whether to offer AMD or Intel. I saw some Lenovo ads in the paper today that offer both.
Originally posted by backtomac
Crap, Dell is dragging intel with them into the gutter.
Dell is Intel-exclusive(right?)... but Dell not doing well won't reflect badly on Intel... I think definitely Intel's clear roadmap and Intel starting to deliver on it shows Intel is ahead with the 65nm process. Intel also seems to be showing glimmers of that performance-per-watt goodness that's been promised all along. Like some previous posts suggest by the end of the year Intel will probably have the edge all-round.
That said, I'm very glad for my PC set up I built in August of last year I went with my Athlon64 3000+ Venice core [OC'ed 1.8ghz to 2.2ghz ]. It'll last well through to the end of this year... Hey, 1.5 years ain't too bad huh...? In 2007 though I'll be looking at my machine and be like, hmm... single core is soooo last year and speaking of "core", by start of 2007 Core 2 and Core 2 Extreme (Conroes) will be out in force whooping ass (with very competitive prices by then).
Ah, AMD, we had a good time, and I'm glad I stayed well away from the ill-fated yet still somewhat popular Pentium 4.
Anyway in 2007 there's still a good upgrade path for me if I need it: 10,000rpm SATA drive with NCQ, 2 1GB sticks of overclocking memory, Athlon X2 to get on the dualcore bandwagon, and nVidia 7800 or maybe even 8000-series.
Well, that's all from PC land. Now you Intel Mac people can go back and gloat at how far ahead of the pack y'all are with Core Solo and Core Duo... Heh... the rest of the world is still AMD and Intel Pentium 4. Core Duo PC laptops are only now starting to very slowly trickle out...
Continuing their price adjustments meant to continue to offer massive discounts. But, then again, that's what has gotten them into the low margin situation they are in now. It doesn't seem to be helping their marketshare much either.
Things seemed to be going well for them for a few years but now Dell has painted itself into a corner
AMD has got to be doing some major R&D through 2006 otherwise in 2007 Intel will clean up the mobile, enterprise and enthusiast space, leaving only the crumbs of the low-end of the market
I'm not sure they'll have it easy there(low end) either. Intel is dropping prices on the dual core pentium Ds to compete in that area as well. While the pent d is no match for athlon, it is a good competitor for sempron.
A thousand years? Are you planning on a fourth reich?
You might have a case when Apple's market share hits double digits. But during the years of 10.0-10.4, Apple had roughly a tenth of Dell's market share. Even then, most of the people that would buy Dell probably would never consider an Apple, and the reverse is true, so it could be argued that they don't even compete in the same market.
hu·mor: P Pronunciation Key (hymr)
n.
The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation.
That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor.
The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd. See Synonyms at wit1.
As for the 1000 years, would you prefer the apple era to last 6 months?
As for the 1000 years, would you prefer the apple era to last 6 months?
That really depends on what type of company Apple becomes when it gets larger. If they continue to be overly proprietary in their product designs and legal-happiness, I don't think that will be to anyone's benefit. I am not an Apple fanboy, I will use Apple products for as long as they serve me enough benefit for the cost. I see what I think are lot of Not Invented Here attitudes in the product designs, many times it seems if Apple didn't invent it then they won't use it, and it is irritating.
Good thing Dell's suffering from "secular" issues -- those religious issues can be really hellish, especially with all those Mac evangelists still around -- OK, I realize they use the word differently in business, but still...
dell's advantage in the "era" included lower cost per computer components AND service. now most have better prices and dell's serice has slid to yuchy. apple is on top, innovation rules. and now that most computers are like commodities it's the subtle things that make people buy. HP, sony, toshiba have done a lot in getting product prices down. and service up.
oh,....btw how can you innovate with the virus magnate windows. is windows os and innovation oxymorons. maybe just morons.
I contend that your comment might be funny for a fanboy and others that drink the kool-aid, but not necessarily to others.
Sure I'm a fanboy. A fanboy who has made a lot of money when he purchased Apple stock after Steve J. came back on board. As for drinking the Koolaid make mine a tall glass of what Steve's been serving. Tall and GREEN!!
For further reading you may want to check this link from a little while back.
Shortly after Mr. Jobs returned to Apple in 1997 as part of the company's acquisition of NeXT, Dell's founder and chairman, Michael Dell, was asked at a technology conference what might be done to fix Apple, then deeply troubled financially.
"What would I do?" Mr. Dell said to an audience of several thousand information technology managers. "I'd shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders."
On Friday, apparently savoring the moment, Mr. Jobs sent a brief e-mail message to Apple employees, which read: "Team, it turned out that Michael Dell wasn't perfect at predicting the future. Based on today's stock market close, Apple is worth more than Dell. Stocks go up and down, and things may be different tomorrow, but I thought it was worth a moment of reflection today. Steve."
Quote:
Originally posted by JeffDM That really depends on what type of company Apple becomes when it gets larger. If they continue to be overly proprietary in their product designs and legal-happiness, I don't think that will be to anyone's benefit. I am not an Apple fanboy, I will use Apple products for as long as they serve me enough benefit for the cost. I see what I think are lot of Not Invented Here attitudes in the product designs, many times it seems if Apple didn't invent it then they won't use it, and it is irritating.[/B]
Michael Dell, Founder of the beleagured computer manufacturer said "Who knew that innovation and actually advancing technology would win out over simply assembling parts."
I'm not sure they'll have it easy there(low end) either. Intel is dropping prices on the dual core pentium Ds to compete in that area as well. While the pent d is no match for athlon, it is a good competitor for sempron.
HuH pentium Ds may have come down in price but Semprons are still way cheaper. And we are talking dualcore vs. single core. pentium Ds at the moment AFAIK beat out single core Athlons. Maybe by the end of this year then pentium Ds enter the "low end" but not right now??
I'm not sure they'll have it easy there(low end) either. Intel is dropping prices on the dual core pentium Ds to compete in that area as well. While the pent d is no match for athlon, it is a good competitor for sempron.
HuH pentium Ds may have come down in price but Semprons are still way cheaper. And we are talking dualcore vs. single core. pentium Ds at the moment AFAIK beat out single core Athlons. Maybe by the end of this year then pentium Ds enter the "low end" but not right now??
A dual core pent d 805 is $128 at newegg. Semprons range from $106 to $120. That's not that big a difference IMO. The Pent d 820 is still a bit higher at $182. I bet when Conroe comes out intel discounts pent ds even further. I think Intel has a big Netburst sale this summer.
I bet when Conroe comes out intel discounts pent ds even further. I think Intel has a big Netburst sale this summer.
\ It's looking like that's quite possible.
Originally posted by backtomac
A dual core pent d 805 is $128 at newegg. Semprons range from $106 to $120. That's not that big a difference IMO. The Pent d 820 is still a bit higher at $182...
Damn. My Athlon3000+ is getting whipped by a $128 dualcore.
"Just as you'd expect, the Pentium D 805 is a very good value if you are either: 1) multitasking, or 2) running multithreaded applications. As we've seen by its performance in Internet Content Creation SYSMark, 3dsmax and our suite of media encoding applications, if you're running the right apps and workloads then the Pentium D 805 offers an unstoppable value. The chip ends up delivering much better overall performance at the price of a single core CPU.
The 805 also does a good job of staying competitive with the Pentium D 820 and 920. In most cases, the 805 offers within 5% of the performance of the Pentium D 820 despite its lower clock speed and 533MHz FSB. For the budget conscious, or if you're planning another more serious upgrade later this year to Socket-AM2 or Conroe, a Pentium D 805 coupled with a cheap 945 motherboard can't be beat.
The fact of the matter is that Socket-AM2 is just around the corner, and Conroe appears to be the Intel chip to wait for, so if you're upgrading or buying today we'd strongly recommend going with a more economical system upgrade. At $133, the Pentium D 805 is a very good balance between price and performance, provided that your workload is multithreaded or multitasking in nature.
Gamers looking for a temporary upgrade should honestly look to the Athlon 64 3000+ instead, as very few games have boarded the dual train as of now.
At the higher end of these value offerings, the Athlon 64 X2 3800+ continues to be a tremendous performer with a relatively low price tag. If you can afford the approximately $300 entry fee, the X2 3800+ will truly impress you across the board. Interestingly enough, we found that for the most part the Opteron 165 just isn't worth it compared to the Athlon 64 X2 3800+. Thanks to AMD's on-die memory controller, the higher clock speed of the 3800+ is more useful than the larger L2 cache of the Opteron 165. (Overclocking makes things a bit more interesting, naturally.)
So there you have it, if you are a multitasker or run multithreaded applications, and you want a great low cost solution, then the Pentium D 805 makes a wonderful stepping stone to a future AM2 or Conroe platform. If you're a gamer that doesn't care about multitasking while gaming, the Athlon 64 3000+ is still a strong value. And finally, if you've got the budget for it, the Athlon 64 X2 3800+ still can't be beat. "
Continuing their price adjustments meant to continue to offer massive discounts. But, then again, that's what has gotten them into the low margin situation they are in now. It doesn't seem to be helping their marketshare much either.
Yeah, Dell's fire sales are starting to look a little like the constant rebates offered by the Big 3. They do help sales (though not necessarily enough to gain market share), but after a while you basically back yourself into a corner because you train consumers to expect you to give them a big rebate. If you don't, they go buy a car that they (accurately) perceive to be higher quality, e.g., Honda, Toyota, etc. Constant rebates/sales can definitely get you into trouble...
Comments
Yeah, I just don't see how AMD is going to perform well in the long term...
Some very good points here. AMD is in its best position now with the Pentium 4 Netburst still milling about and Athlon kicking ass and Sempron cleaning up the low-end. But those 65nm Cores are around the corner and when prices and availability start happening things may not look so good for Athlon. Conroe [Core 2 and Core 2 Extreme] will start getting into the enthusiast and enterprise space that the Athlon and Athlon X2's are enjoying.
Performance-per-watt in the server space is definitely favouring AMD Opterons over Xeons but that will be for 1 year max then Woodcrests will probably demolish the Opterons in performance and performance-per-watt.
In the mobile space Yonah and Merom are taking off and a large number of manufacturers are continuing to build on the strong Centrino and Centrino Duo brand.
Looking ahead there's only the M2 platform thingy for the Athlon which is support for DDR2 and AFAIK I don't know what else...
AMD has got to be doing some major R&D through 2006 otherwise in 2007 Intel will clean up the mobile, enterprise and enthusiast space, leaving only the crumbs of the low-end of the market
Very little of Dell's problems have to do with AMD vs Intel, even though some like to believe that...
Right now with Dell, HP, and Lenovo duking it out on razor thin margins I'm not really sure how they decide whether to offer AMD or Intel. I saw some Lenovo ads in the paper today that offer both.
Originally posted by backtomac
Crap, Dell is dragging intel with them into the gutter.
Dell is Intel-exclusive(right?)... but Dell not doing well won't reflect badly on Intel... I think definitely Intel's clear roadmap and Intel starting to deliver on it shows Intel is ahead with the 65nm process. Intel also seems to be showing glimmers of that performance-per-watt goodness that's been promised all along. Like some previous posts suggest by the end of the year Intel will probably have the edge all-round.
Ah, AMD, we had a good time, and I'm glad I stayed well away from the ill-fated yet still somewhat popular Pentium 4.
Anyway in 2007 there's still a good upgrade path for me if I need it: 10,000rpm SATA drive with NCQ, 2 1GB sticks of overclocking memory, Athlon X2 to get on the dualcore bandwagon, and nVidia 7800 or maybe even 8000-series.
Well, that's all from PC land. Now you Intel Mac people can go back and gloat at how far ahead of the pack y'all are with Core Solo and Core Duo... Heh... the rest of the world is still AMD and Intel Pentium 4. Core Duo PC laptops are only now starting to very slowly trickle out...
Continuing their price adjustments meant to continue to offer massive discounts. But, then again, that's what has gotten them into the low margin situation they are in now. It doesn't seem to be helping their marketshare much either.
Things seemed to be going well for them for a few years but now Dell has painted itself into a corner
Originally posted by sunilraman
AMD has got to be doing some major R&D through 2006 otherwise in 2007 Intel will clean up the mobile, enterprise and enthusiast space, leaving only the crumbs of the low-end of the market
I'm not sure they'll have it easy there(low end) either. Intel is dropping prices on the dual core pentium Ds to compete in that area as well. While the pent d is no match for athlon, it is a good competitor for sempron.
Originally posted by JeffDM
A thousand years? Are you planning on a fourth reich?
You might have a case when Apple's market share hits double digits. But during the years of 10.0-10.4, Apple had roughly a tenth of Dell's market share. Even then, most of the people that would buy Dell probably would never consider an Apple, and the reverse is true, so it could be argued that they don't even compete in the same market.
hu·mor: P Pronunciation Key (hymr)
n.
The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation.
That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor.
The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd. See Synonyms at wit1.
As for the 1000 years, would you prefer the apple era to last 6 months?
Originally posted by TednDi
As for the 1000 years, would you prefer the apple era to last 6 months?
That really depends on what type of company Apple becomes when it gets larger. If they continue to be overly proprietary in their product designs and legal-happiness, I don't think that will be to anyone's benefit. I am not an Apple fanboy, I will use Apple products for as long as they serve me enough benefit for the cost. I see what I think are lot of Not Invented Here attitudes in the product designs, many times it seems if Apple didn't invent it then they won't use it, and it is irritating.
Originally posted by TednDi
see third definition above.
I contend that your comment might be funny for a fanboy and others that drink the kool-aid, but not necessarily to others.
Originally posted by amac4me
No OS X for you Mr. Dell
Apple will not license OS X (at least that's my hope)
And Apple will never be than a minor player because of it.
oh,....btw how can you innovate with the virus magnate windows. is windows os and innovation oxymorons. maybe just morons.
Originally posted by JeffDM
I contend that your comment might be funny for a fanboy and others that drink the kool-aid, but not necessarily to others.
Sure I'm a fanboy. A fanboy who has made a lot of money when he purchased Apple stock after Steve J. came back on board. As for drinking the Koolaid make mine a tall glass of what Steve's been serving. Tall and GREEN!!
For further reading you may want to check this link from a little while back.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=60407
The salient point:
Shortly after Mr. Jobs returned to Apple in 1997 as part of the company's acquisition of NeXT, Dell's founder and chairman, Michael Dell, was asked at a technology conference what might be done to fix Apple, then deeply troubled financially.
"What would I do?" Mr. Dell said to an audience of several thousand information technology managers. "I'd shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders."
On Friday, apparently savoring the moment, Mr. Jobs sent a brief e-mail message to Apple employees, which read: "Team, it turned out that Michael Dell wasn't perfect at predicting the future. Based on today's stock market close, Apple is worth more than Dell. Stocks go up and down, and things may be different tomorrow, but I thought it was worth a moment of reflection today. Steve."
Originally posted by JeffDM That really depends on what type of company Apple becomes when it gets larger. If they continue to be overly proprietary in their product designs and legal-happiness, I don't think that will be to anyone's benefit. I am not an Apple fanboy, I will use Apple products for as long as they serve me enough benefit for the cost. I see what I think are lot of Not Invented Here attitudes in the product designs, many times it seems if Apple didn't invent it then they won't use it, and it is irritating.[/B]
Just take a little sip. Think different!
Originally posted by MacCentric
Dell's market cap is once again below Apple's.
Michael Dell, Founder of the beleagured computer manufacturer said "Who knew that innovation and actually advancing technology would win out over simply assembling parts."
I'm not sure they'll have it easy there(low end) either. Intel is dropping prices on the dual core pentium Ds to compete in that area as well. While the pent d is no match for athlon, it is a good competitor for sempron.
HuH
Originally posted by sunilraman
Originally posted by backtomac
I'm not sure they'll have it easy there(low end) either. Intel is dropping prices on the dual core pentium Ds to compete in that area as well. While the pent d is no match for athlon, it is a good competitor for sempron.
HuH
A dual core pent d 805 is $128 at newegg. Semprons range from $106 to $120. That's not that big a difference IMO. The Pent d 820 is still a bit higher at $182. I bet when Conroe comes out intel discounts pent ds even further. I think Intel has a big Netburst sale this summer.
I bet when Conroe comes out intel discounts pent ds even further. I think Intel has a big Netburst sale this summer.
Originally posted by backtomac
A dual core pent d 805 is $128 at newegg. Semprons range from $106 to $120. That's not that big a difference IMO. The Pent d 820 is still a bit higher at $182...
Anandtech had a good roundup a while back:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...spx?i=2736&p=1
Damn. My Athlon3000+ is getting whipped by a $128 dualcore.
"Just as you'd expect, the Pentium D 805 is a very good value if you are either: 1) multitasking, or 2) running multithreaded applications. As we've seen by its performance in Internet Content Creation SYSMark, 3dsmax and our suite of media encoding applications, if you're running the right apps and workloads then the Pentium D 805 offers an unstoppable value. The chip ends up delivering much better overall performance at the price of a single core CPU.
The 805 also does a good job of staying competitive with the Pentium D 820 and 920. In most cases, the 805 offers within 5% of the performance of the Pentium D 820 despite its lower clock speed and 533MHz FSB. For the budget conscious, or if you're planning another more serious upgrade later this year to Socket-AM2 or Conroe, a Pentium D 805 coupled with a cheap 945 motherboard can't be beat.
The fact of the matter is that Socket-AM2 is just around the corner, and Conroe appears to be the Intel chip to wait for, so if you're upgrading or buying today we'd strongly recommend going with a more economical system upgrade. At $133, the Pentium D 805 is a very good balance between price and performance, provided that your workload is multithreaded or multitasking in nature.
Gamers looking for a temporary upgrade should honestly look to the Athlon 64 3000+ instead, as very few games have boarded the dual train as of now.
At the higher end of these value offerings, the Athlon 64 X2 3800+ continues to be a tremendous performer with a relatively low price tag. If you can afford the approximately $300 entry fee, the X2 3800+ will truly impress you across the board. Interestingly enough, we found that for the most part the Opteron 165 just isn't worth it compared to the Athlon 64 X2 3800+. Thanks to AMD's on-die memory controller, the higher clock speed of the 3800+ is more useful than the larger L2 cache of the Opteron 165. (Overclocking makes things a bit more interesting, naturally.)
So there you have it, if you are a multitasker or run multithreaded applications, and you want a great low cost solution, then the Pentium D 805 makes a wonderful stepping stone to a future AM2 or Conroe platform. If you're a gamer that doesn't care about multitasking while gaming, the Athlon 64 3000+ is still a strong value. And finally, if you've got the budget for it, the Athlon 64 X2 3800+ still can't be beat. "
Continuing their price adjustments meant to continue to offer massive discounts. But, then again, that's what has gotten them into the low margin situation they are in now. It doesn't seem to be helping their marketshare much either.
Yeah, Dell's fire sales are starting to look a little like the constant rebates offered by the Big 3. They do help sales (though not necessarily enough to gain market share), but after a while you basically back yourself into a corner because you train consumers to expect you to give them a big rebate. If you don't, they go buy a car that they (accurately) perceive to be higher quality, e.g., Honda, Toyota, etc. Constant rebates/sales can definitely get you into trouble...
http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/...spx?i=2755&p=3
Not the typical black box dell.