I would agree with this considerig the small amount of development that Shake has seen since Apple's acquisition. It's done well but the evolution IMO has been slower than that of all the other Final Cut Pro sister apps.
Except for Soundtrack Pro! I'll bet that one dies soon, and probably won't be replaced.
Except for Soundtrack Pro! I'll bet that one dies soon, and probably won't be replaced.
Why? STP users are generally happy with the featureset. It's definitely a good base to further develop. Hell I'm anxiously awaiting Logic Pro 8 because I expect STP features to be added.
Why? STP users are generally happy with the featureset. It's definitely a good base to further develop. Hell I'm anxiously awaiting Logic Pro 8 because I expect STP features to be added.
No way in hell. The only people happy with STP are video folks who know the bare minimum about audio and have never used another audio app.
Anyone who has spent any amount of time with just about any other audio software is shocked at how primative it is and how many absolutely basic features are missing. It's also the slowest app I've ever used.
It's been out a year and it's on version 1.03, that's a few minor bugfixes and zero added features in that time. It's still extremely buggy and barely usable, much less for pro work.
I agree with the idea that Apple will probably roll the cool STP features into Logic. But I doubt we'll see much if any development on it, they'll keep including it as a freebie with FCS. I'd love to hear rumors about whether apple even has a team still working on it, I seriously doubt it's more than a guy or two doing the bare minimum.
No way in hell. The only people happy with STP are video folks who know the bare minimum about audio and have never used another audio app.
Well this is clearly why Apple offers STP for video and Logic for pro audio engineering.
I've worked on films where they hired an audio guy who usually works in studio recording/mixing to come do location audio recording/mixing. Usually the results are pretty bad because studio mixing skills and location recording skills are different. The same can be said for the software used in both.
Seems a bit illogical to look for STP to do the same as Logic. Apple offers both for a reason.
Well this is clearly why Apple offers STP for video and Logic for pro audio engineering.
I've worked on films where they hired an audio guy who usually works in studio recording/mixing to come do location audio recording/mixing. Usually the results are pretty bad because studio mixing skills and location recording skills are different. The same can be said for the software used in both.
Seems a bit illogical to look for STP to do the same as Logic. Apple offers both for a reason.
I've used both STP and Logic, but for quickie audio post-work STP is absolutely fine.
Exactly. Apple offers a very comprehensive palette of audio applications. For the consumer, GarageBand, for the Prosumer, Soundtrack and Logic Express, and for the Professional, Soundtrack Pro and Logic Pro.
I don't understand the notion of "one will be killed in favor of another". They all have very distinct, clear purposes. Soundtrack (and Soundtrack Pro) was created after Apple's Emagic acquisition, so clearly they weren't in any way internal competitors to Logic.
Which, wouldn't you know it, is (and always has been) the precise target audience for that program.
Wrong. STP was originally sold as a freestanding audio editing app. They only changed the promotion to "fcp helper app" after they decided to bundle it.
I wish they would have sold it that way from the start, I probably wouldn't have wasted my money on it.
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
Well this is clearly why Apple offers STP for video and Logic for pro audio engineering.
Seems a bit illogical to look for STP to do the same as Logic. Apple offers both for a reason.
You completely miss my point. I'm not saying STP should be more like Logic, I'm saying that STP is half baked and buggy. I think that STP is a lousy app for video work, it's just not ready for prime time. And logic isn't a great app for audio post work either, it was designed primarily as a midi app and can't really compete with some other dedicated audio apps.
STP could be a solid app by version 2.0. But it's been a year and they're still stuck on the flimsy 1.0.x releases (come on, we don't even have a 1.1 yet????).
Quote:
Originally posted by SpamSandwich
I've used both STP and Logic, but for quickie audio post-work STP is absolutely fine.
I think the key word is "quickie". Your comment is like saying textedit is absolutely fine for quickie word processing. Sure, if you have incredibly low standards, STP will meet those incredibly low standards.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Exactly. Apple offers a very comprehensive palette of audio applications. For the consumer, GarageBand, for the Prosumer, Soundtrack and Logic Express, and for the Professional, Soundtrack Pro and Logic Pro.
I don't understand the notion of "one will be killed in favor of another". They all have very distinct, clear purposes. Soundtrack (and Soundtrack Pro) was created after Apple's Emagic acquisition, so clearly they weren't in any way internal competitors to Logic.
I don't think STP *should* be killed in favor of anything else, I just think making a product unavailable except bundled with another app, and going an entire year without doing any real development show that apple doesn't care about this app and have given up.
I agree with your assessment of apple's product line, but I'd say that's what their line should be, not what it is. STP would be a great sister app to logic, aimed more at audio post than music, plus with destructive editing. But they've failed to make it anything remotely "pro," we're talking about an app that still corrupts audio files on a regular basis and can take longer to open a file than it takes to listen to the file in real time.
So apple is left with a great music app, but a dog on the audio for video (or even just pure audio editing) side.
I'm not surprised at all. Despite the similar name to the orginal Soundtrack the "Pro" version is a rewrite and that comes with the inevitable bugginess of a ver 1 product.
Seeing some of the features live in the presentation though leads me to believe Apple is on the right path with STP. Version 2.0 should be a lot better. Motion was fairly useless in a production environment for its first year as well.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion I know a lot of editors who use FCS, and haven't heard the degree of complaints you address. I'm sure of course everyone has their list of improvements they would like to see in an update. But still you are watching movies in the theater and shows on television that have been edited and mixed on FCS.
As far as a version update, none of the FCS apps have had major version updates since the introduction of STP.
At NAB I was told all of this years work went into making FCS Universal. I'm sure we will see across the board update for 2007.
Wrong. STP was originally sold as a freestanding audio editing app. They only changed the promotion to "fcp helper app" after they decided to bundle it.
Wrong.
Here's a bit of history for you: Soundtrack was originally an application available exclusively as part of Final Cut Pro 4.0. Apple then realized that some Final Cut Express users may want it as well, which is why they made a stand-alone Soundtrack available.
Then, the Soundtrack in Final Cut Pro was upgraded to Soundtrack Pro as part of Final Cut Studio or stand-alone, and Soundtrack non-Pro made a free part of Final Cut Express. The stand-alone Soundtrack non-Pro had already been discontinued again at this point.
Finally, with the move to Universal Binaries, stand-alone Soundtrack Pro was discontinued as well, as was stand-alone Final Cut Pro, but Final Cut Studio was made the same price as Final Cut Pro previously, so effectively, you get Soundtrack Pro for free as a new Final Cut Pro customer now.
You probably are right, that STP has a lot of bugs. Apple of course knows this. But FCS studio is selling like hot cakes and it works fine for right now.
Apple likely decided to get past the Universal hurdle and then do a major over haul for the next FCS update.
I just noticed our birthday is on the same day. Happy belated b-day my Aries compadre.
Thanks for the NAB update. I wasn't sure if Apple would push the FCS update to IBC or another tradeshow but evidently they may just shoot for NAB 2007. Fine with me that gives them time to support the new Panasonic AVC-Intra codec amongst other features. XSAN has been creeping along as well. I wonder when we see 2.0 hit.
Apple is certainly on a path to converge these tools into a digital gruel of integrated media apps.
I'm not surprised at all. Despite the similar name to the orginal Soundtrack the "Pro" version is a rewrite and that comes with the inevitable bugginess of a ver 1 product.
Seeing some of the features live in the presentation though leads me to believe Apple is on the right path with STP. Version 2.0 should be a lot better. Motion was fairly useless in a production environment for its first year as well.
What makes you so sure there will ever be a version 2.0? When would you expect to see it?
Quote:
Originally posted by TenoBell
You are certainly entitled to your opinion I know a lot of editors who use FCS, and haven't heard the degree of complaints you address. I'm sure of course everyone has their list of improvements they would like to see in an update. But still you are watching movies in the theater and shows on television that have been edited and mixed on FCS.
As far as a version update, none of the FCS apps have had major version updates since the introduction of STP.
At NAB I was told all of this years work went into making FCS Universal. I'm sure we will see across the board update for 2007.
TONS of editors use Final Cut, and the other apps. But movies mixed in STP (I assume that's what you mean, even though you say "mixed on FCS")? Name one. I'd be shocked if there was anything but the tiniest obscure indie release mixed with it. And TV shows mixed in STP are probably limited to the simplest shows, maybe a bargain basement reality show or makeover show.
If there has been anything notable mixed in STP, name it. I'd love to know about it.
And for the record, most of the other FCP apps had at least some minor improvements along with universal support. STP had zero. Not one.
Quote:
Originally posted by Chucker
Here's a bit of history for you: Soundtrack was originally an application available exclusively as part of Final Cut Pro 4.0. Apple then realized that some Final Cut Express users may want it as well, which is why they made a stand-alone Soundtrack available.[/B]
No, actually I'm right and you are wrong. As I said, Soundtrack PRO was originally released as a standalone app. There's no disagreeing with that. Soundtrack PRO is version 1.0. It's a completely new app, not an update of Soundtrack. My statement was about Soundtrack PRO, not Soundtrack.
Sure. Of course all I was told that 2005 went into building the Universal FCS. But they could not say when a new version update would be released. Looking at Apple's history its pretty safe to say 2007.
Quote:
I just noticed our birthday is on the same day. Happy belated b-day my Aries compadre.
Thanks you too. There seems to be less time between birthdays as the years go on.
OMFG, this is incredible. I've been using Shake over the past few months where I work and IMO, it is by far one of the best pieces of software I've ever used. I've tried AE and Combustion but I can take to Shake like a duck to water - it is soooo intuitive.
Same deal with Final Cut Studio. I imagine part of the price drop is because it doesn't need much more development. Sometimes software reaches a point where you just don't need to develop it further because it does its job fine.
No vector image support but usually that's not a problem and is more Motion's dept.
What makes you so sure there will ever be a version 2.0? When would you expect to see it?
Because of the featureset
Logic Pro users still don't have sample accurate editing in the arrange window much to their chagrin. STP has this.
the Action-based editing is very cool in STP. Reordering effects and turning them off or on seems to be pretty fluid and effective.
There's more but the core of STP looks to be scalable. Apple surely didn't scrap the orginal Soundtrack for a new codebase that they plan on killing.
Apple tends to be laggards sn some apps. It took'em forever to get Waveburner back into Logic.
Quote:
Thanks you too. There seems to be less time between birthdays as the years go on.
no doubt I'm now closer to 40 than 30..that's freaky to me.
Marvin
Not bad...taking to Shake isn't the easiest thing in the world but you obviously "get" what they're trying to do. Did you read any books to help you get up to speed or just hands on stuff?
Comments
Originally posted by hmurchison
I would agree with this considerig the small amount of development that Shake has seen since Apple's acquisition. It's done well but the evolution IMO has been slower than that of all the other Final Cut Pro sister apps.
Except for Soundtrack Pro! I'll bet that one dies soon, and probably won't be replaced.
Originally posted by minderbinder
Except for Soundtrack Pro! I'll bet that one dies soon, and probably won't be replaced.
Why? STP users are generally happy with the featureset. It's definitely a good base to further develop. Hell I'm anxiously awaiting Logic Pro 8 because I expect STP features to be added.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Why? STP users are generally happy with the featureset. It's definitely a good base to further develop. Hell I'm anxiously awaiting Logic Pro 8 because I expect STP features to be added.
No way in hell. The only people happy with STP are video folks who know the bare minimum about audio and have never used another audio app.
Anyone who has spent any amount of time with just about any other audio software is shocked at how primative it is and how many absolutely basic features are missing. It's also the slowest app I've ever used.
It's been out a year and it's on version 1.03, that's a few minor bugfixes and zero added features in that time. It's still extremely buggy and barely usable, much less for pro work.
I agree with the idea that Apple will probably roll the cool STP features into Logic. But I doubt we'll see much if any development on it, they'll keep including it as a freebie with FCS. I'd love to hear rumors about whether apple even has a team still working on it, I seriously doubt it's more than a guy or two doing the bare minimum.
Originally posted by minderbinder
No way in hell. The only people happy with STP are video folks who know the bare minimum about audio and have never used another audio app.
Which, wouldn't you know it, is (and always has been) the precise target audience for that program.
No way in hell. The only people happy with STP are video folks who know the bare minimum about audio and have never used another audio app.
Well this is clearly why Apple offers STP for video and Logic for pro audio engineering.
I've worked on films where they hired an audio guy who usually works in studio recording/mixing to come do location audio recording/mixing. Usually the results are pretty bad because studio mixing skills and location recording skills are different. The same can be said for the software used in both.
Seems a bit illogical to look for STP to do the same as Logic. Apple offers both for a reason.
Originally posted by TenoBell
Well this is clearly why Apple offers STP for video and Logic for pro audio engineering.
I've worked on films where they hired an audio guy who usually works in studio recording/mixing to come do location audio recording/mixing. Usually the results are pretty bad because studio mixing skills and location recording skills are different. The same can be said for the software used in both.
Seems a bit illogical to look for STP to do the same as Logic. Apple offers both for a reason.
I've used both STP and Logic, but for quickie audio post-work STP is absolutely fine.
I don't understand the notion of "one will be killed in favor of another". They all have very distinct, clear purposes. Soundtrack (and Soundtrack Pro) was created after Apple's Emagic acquisition, so clearly they weren't in any way internal competitors to Logic.
Originally posted by Chucker
Which, wouldn't you know it, is (and always has been) the precise target audience for that program.
Wrong. STP was originally sold as a freestanding audio editing app. They only changed the promotion to "fcp helper app" after they decided to bundle it.
I wish they would have sold it that way from the start, I probably wouldn't have wasted my money on it.
Originally posted by TenoBell
Well this is clearly why Apple offers STP for video and Logic for pro audio engineering.
Seems a bit illogical to look for STP to do the same as Logic. Apple offers both for a reason.
You completely miss my point. I'm not saying STP should be more like Logic, I'm saying that STP is half baked and buggy. I think that STP is a lousy app for video work, it's just not ready for prime time. And logic isn't a great app for audio post work either, it was designed primarily as a midi app and can't really compete with some other dedicated audio apps.
STP could be a solid app by version 2.0. But it's been a year and they're still stuck on the flimsy 1.0.x releases (come on, we don't even have a 1.1 yet????).
Originally posted by SpamSandwich
I've used both STP and Logic, but for quickie audio post-work STP is absolutely fine.
I think the key word is "quickie". Your comment is like saying textedit is absolutely fine for quickie word processing. Sure, if you have incredibly low standards, STP will meet those incredibly low standards.
Originally posted by Chucker
Exactly. Apple offers a very comprehensive palette of audio applications. For the consumer, GarageBand, for the Prosumer, Soundtrack and Logic Express, and for the Professional, Soundtrack Pro and Logic Pro.
I don't understand the notion of "one will be killed in favor of another". They all have very distinct, clear purposes. Soundtrack (and Soundtrack Pro) was created after Apple's Emagic acquisition, so clearly they weren't in any way internal competitors to Logic.
I don't think STP *should* be killed in favor of anything else, I just think making a product unavailable except bundled with another app, and going an entire year without doing any real development show that apple doesn't care about this app and have given up.
I agree with your assessment of apple's product line, but I'd say that's what their line should be, not what it is. STP would be a great sister app to logic, aimed more at audio post than music, plus with destructive editing. But they've failed to make it anything remotely "pro," we're talking about an app that still corrupts audio files on a regular basis and can take longer to open a file than it takes to listen to the file in real time.
So apple is left with a great music app, but a dog on the audio for video (or even just pure audio editing) side.
I'm not surprised at all. Despite the similar name to the orginal Soundtrack the "Pro" version is a rewrite and that comes with the inevitable bugginess of a ver 1 product.
Seeing some of the features live in the presentation though leads me to believe Apple is on the right path with STP. Version 2.0 should be a lot better. Motion was fairly useless in a production environment for its first year as well.
As far as a version update, none of the FCS apps have had major version updates since the introduction of STP.
At NAB I was told all of this years work went into making FCS Universal. I'm sure we will see across the board update for 2007.
Originally posted by minderbinder
Wrong. STP was originally sold as a freestanding audio editing app. They only changed the promotion to "fcp helper app" after they decided to bundle it.
Wrong.
Here's a bit of history for you: Soundtrack was originally an application available exclusively as part of Final Cut Pro 4.0. Apple then realized that some Final Cut Express users may want it as well, which is why they made a stand-alone Soundtrack available.
Then, the Soundtrack in Final Cut Pro was upgraded to Soundtrack Pro as part of Final Cut Studio or stand-alone, and Soundtrack non-Pro made a free part of Final Cut Express. The stand-alone Soundtrack non-Pro had already been discontinued again at this point.
Finally, with the move to Universal Binaries, stand-alone Soundtrack Pro was discontinued as well, as was stand-alone Final Cut Pro, but Final Cut Studio was made the same price as Final Cut Pro previously, so effectively, you get Soundtrack Pro for free as a new Final Cut Pro customer now.
You probably are right, that STP has a lot of bugs. Apple of course knows this. But FCS studio is selling like hot cakes and it works fine for right now.
Apple likely decided to get past the Universal hurdle and then do a major over haul for the next FCS update.
I just noticed our birthday is on the same day. Happy belated b-day my Aries compadre.
Thanks for the NAB update. I wasn't sure if Apple would push the FCS update to IBC or another tradeshow but evidently they may just shoot for NAB 2007. Fine with me that gives them time to support the new Panasonic AVC-Intra codec amongst other features. XSAN has been creeping along as well. I wonder when we see 2.0 hit.
Apple is certainly on a path to converge these tools into a digital gruel of integrated media apps.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Mindbender
I'm not surprised at all. Despite the similar name to the orginal Soundtrack the "Pro" version is a rewrite and that comes with the inevitable bugginess of a ver 1 product.
Seeing some of the features live in the presentation though leads me to believe Apple is on the right path with STP. Version 2.0 should be a lot better. Motion was fairly useless in a production environment for its first year as well.
What makes you so sure there will ever be a version 2.0? When would you expect to see it?
Originally posted by TenoBell
You are certainly entitled to your opinion I know a lot of editors who use FCS, and haven't heard the degree of complaints you address. I'm sure of course everyone has their list of improvements they would like to see in an update. But still you are watching movies in the theater and shows on television that have been edited and mixed on FCS.
As far as a version update, none of the FCS apps have had major version updates since the introduction of STP.
At NAB I was told all of this years work went into making FCS Universal. I'm sure we will see across the board update for 2007.
TONS of editors use Final Cut, and the other apps. But movies mixed in STP (I assume that's what you mean, even though you say "mixed on FCS")? Name one. I'd be shocked if there was anything but the tiniest obscure indie release mixed with it. And TV shows mixed in STP are probably limited to the simplest shows, maybe a bargain basement reality show or makeover show.
If there has been anything notable mixed in STP, name it. I'd love to know about it.
And for the record, most of the other FCP apps had at least some minor improvements along with universal support. STP had zero. Not one.
Originally posted by Chucker
Here's a bit of history for you: Soundtrack was originally an application available exclusively as part of Final Cut Pro 4.0. Apple then realized that some Final Cut Express users may want it as well, which is why they made a stand-alone Soundtrack available.[/B]
No, actually I'm right and you are wrong. As I said, Soundtrack PRO was originally released as a standalone app. There's no disagreeing with that. Soundtrack PRO is version 1.0. It's a completely new app, not an update of Soundtrack. My statement was about Soundtrack PRO, not Soundtrack.
Thanks for the NAB update.
Sure. Of course all I was told that 2005 went into building the Universal FCS. But they could not say when a new version update would be released. Looking at Apple's history its pretty safe to say 2007.
I just noticed our birthday is on the same day. Happy belated b-day my Aries compadre.
Thanks you too. There seems to be less time between birthdays as the years go on.
Same deal with Final Cut Studio. I imagine part of the price drop is because it doesn't need much more development. Sometimes software reaches a point where you just don't need to develop it further because it does its job fine.
No vector image support but usually that's not a problem and is more Motion's dept.
Why isn't the UK price down though?
TONS of editors use Final Cut, and the other apps. But movies mixed in STP
Well think of it like this. This is a business and everyone is looking for every way possible to shave a few pennies off of the cost of everything.
Editors are being used more and more to do graphics and final sound mixes.
Are they going to invest and have the entire FCS suite at their disposal and not use it to its fullest?
If there has been anything notable mixed in STP, name it. I'd love to know about it.
MTV/VH1 edit audio on STP for their promos and shows. I know a guy who works there.
From what I hear the TV shows Scrubs post production is done entirely on FCS. I would assume that means STP for audio.
And this guy seems to really like it. He used STP on the movie Jarhead.
http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/...rack_pro-murch
What makes you so sure there will ever be a version 2.0? When would you expect to see it?
Because of the featureset
Logic Pro users still don't have sample accurate editing in the arrange window much to their chagrin. STP has this.
the Action-based editing is very cool in STP. Reordering effects and turning them off or on seems to be pretty fluid and effective.
There's more but the core of STP looks to be scalable. Apple surely didn't scrap the orginal Soundtrack for a new codebase that they plan on killing.
Apple tends to be laggards sn some apps. It took'em forever to get Waveburner back into Logic.
Thanks you too. There seems to be less time between birthdays as the years go on.
no doubt I'm now closer to 40 than 30..that's freaky to me.
Marvin
Not bad...taking to Shake isn't the easiest thing in the world but you obviously "get" what they're trying to do. Did you read any books to help you get up to speed or just hands on stuff?