Terminal needs Tabs

24

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 67
    kim kap solkim kap sol Posts: 2,987member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Chucker

    I want a tabbed kim kap sol.



    I want tabbed tabs. Hmm...nah, tab that thought.



    I think the silliness of tabs is getting out of hand...just like the 3D revolution nearly destroyed gaming (all about graphics, not enough about story and character development).



    We might as well get rid of preemptive multitasking and go back to cooperative multitasking if we're going to tab everything that walks. I mean...if one loves tabs, one probably doesn't care about anything except whatever's on top of everything else. Every app might as well become fullscreen too if we're going to extend this idea. One window...each tab represents a launched app.



    People that love tabs are silly. There's just no other way to put it.



    PS Gene Clean is the silliest silly person of the bunch.
  • Reply 22 of 67
    Quote:

    Originally posted by kim kap sol

    I want a tabbed Address Book and a tabbed Calculator.



    I want a tabbed Quicktime Player.
  • Reply 23 of 67
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Gene Clean

    I don't think it does, because it sounds like what IE users would tell first Opera, then Firefox, and then Safari users when faced with a conversation about tabs.



    "It's better this way!"



    It is not. Luckily there are alternatives, and they are far better than Terminal.




    I think you misunderstood the point that I said stood - I was asking why one keystroke to flip between tabs was inherently better than one keystroke to flip between windows. He said, "If you cannot navigate through the tabs with the keyboard, the added value is minimal or zero (unless you are in a small sized display)." I was asking how keystrokes + tabs added anything over keystrokes + windows, with the emphasis being on the keystrokes. He made his case. I'm still not convinced that tabs are better in this situation, but at least he and I cleared up what we were talking about. k? k.



    And just do you don't sound like an IE user telling Opera, Firefox, and Safari users "It's better this way!", why not explain exactly how the 'far better alternatives to Terminal' are better? I'm sure there are some out there, and I'm always looking for a better tool for the toolkit. Tabs aren't a selling point to me though.
  • Reply 24 of 67
    gene cleangene clean Posts: 3,481member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    I think you misunderstood the point that I said stood - I was asking why one keystroke to flip between tabs was inherently better than one keystroke to flip between windows. He said, "If you cannot navigate through the tabs with the keyboard, the added value is minimal or zero (unless you are in a small sized display)." I was asking how keystrokes + tabs added anything over keystrokes + windows, with the emphasis being on the keystrokes. He made his case. I'm still not convinced that tabs are better in this situation, but at least he and I cleared up what we were talking about.



    Well, the point still doesn't stand, because it's just your opinion. I think 7 tabs are better than 7 windows because that means less clutter and less clutter means that there's a better chance at navigation without getting any headaches.





    Quote:

    k? k.



    Is this the tone you generally use, or are you just being obtuse because I don't agree with you?



    Quote:

    And just do you don't sound like an IE user telling Opera, Firefox, and Safari users "It's better this way!",



    What does this mean?



    Quote:

    why not explain exactly how the 'far better alternatives to Terminal' are better?



    Well, for one, they offer tabs. That's a plus in my book. They're faster. When you want to issue two commands in one session, you don't have to right-click the Terminal icon and choose "New Shell" everytime - which means one more window to worry about. Drag and drop between tabs. Custom fonts for non-latin characters so they stand out even better. Custom-key mapping. Support for Bonjour. Etc., etc.





    Quote:

    I'm sure there are some out there, and I'm always looking for a better tool for the toolkit. Tabs aren't a selling point to me though.



    I think iTerm is superior to Terminal, but that's just me.
  • Reply 25 of 67
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Gene Clean

    Well, the point still doesn't stand, because it's just your opinion. I think 7 tabs are better than 7 windows because that means less clutter and less clutter means that there's a better chance at navigation without getting any headaches.



    Oh for fuck's sake Gene. You waded into a conversation, misunderstood what was going on, and decided to pick a fight over it. I'm not going to bother with you on this one.



    ---------------------



    And now for actual content.



    Quote:

    Well, for one, they offer tabs. That's a plus in my book.



    Hopefully someone else will get some benefit from that.



    Quote:

    They're faster.



    The UI feels Snappier(tm), I take it?



    Quote:

    When you want to issue two commands in one session, you don't have to right-click the Terminal icon and choose "New Shell" everytime - which means one more window to worry about.



    Eh? Cmd-N. Enter commands. Cmd-W. Goes away. Why make it harder?



    Quote:

    Drag and drop between tabs. Custom fonts for non-latin characters so they stand out even better. Custom-key mapping. Support for Bonjour. Etc., etc.



    Key-mapping in Terminal is available as well though the Cocoa keybindings, but the UI is pretty minimal. Perhaps you meant something else?



    And I'm not even at all certain what you mean by Bonjour support... care to elaborate?



    Quote:

    I think iTerm is superior to Terminal, but that's just me.



    Spiffy.
  • Reply 26 of 67
    hobbeshobbes Posts: 1,252member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    For *very specific apps*, sure. For a system-wide UI element? F*ck no. Otherwise you're going to see even more of what we have now - tabbois screaming for tabs everywhere, because they're k3wl, and gosh darnit, it's what they're used to in other UIs... when they're shooting themselves in the foot by not learning a more efficient workflow. Normally I'd say "Let 'em", but when you're talking about a system-wide UI element, it shoots *everyone* in the foot when devs start throwing it around like confetti.



    OTOH, having an NSTabbedWindow from Apple might unify some of the various approaches we've seen come out of shareware apps that have been half-baked. The problem is, they'd have to come with some very specific and detailed HIG rules. For the devs to ignore, of course. :P [/B]



    Aside from general orderliness and that not every user knows about commands like command-`, the other considerable advantage of tabs opposed to multiple windows is the ability to survey, switch to, and control all of your windows in a single glance. (Exposé does a fantastic job of this for surveying and switching, but it's also more disruptive and much better for visually distinct windows as opposed to text-heavy windows.) If handled right (like Safari does), I find them *very* empowering and liberating.



    The ability to select tabs while dragging and dropping is very important to add, by the way -- agreed.



    Personally, I was skeptical of tabs until Safari came out, but I've been strongly won over since its impressive introduction. They're certainly not a solution for every application, but I find myself thinking about them for an increasing number of apps. So I don't think a NSTabbedWindow would be a bad idea at all (in fact I'm rather expecting it for Leopard).
  • Reply 26 of 67
    hobbeshobbes Posts: 1,252member
    <grrr. darn forum.>
  • Reply 28 of 67
    hobbeshobbes Posts: 1,252member
    <grrr. darn forum.>
  • Reply 29 of 67
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Hobbes

    Aside from general orderliness and that not every user knows about commands like command-`, the other considerable advantage of tabs opposed to multiple windows is the ability to survey, switch to, and control all of your windows in a single glance. (Exposé does a fantastic job of this for surveying and switching, but it's also more disruptive and much better for visually distinct windows as opposed to text-heavy windows.) If handled right (like Safari does), I find them *very* empowering and liberating.



    The ability to select tabs while dragging and dropping is very important to add, by the way -- agreed.



    Personally, I was skeptical of tabs until Safari came out, but I've been strongly won over since its impressive introduction. They're certainly not a solution for every application, but I find myself thinking about them for an increasing number of apps. So I don't think a NSTabbedWindow would be a bad idea at all (in fact I'm rather expecting it for Leopard).




    It's funny, but I realized tonight that I've been using a well-tabbed app for a few weeks now without even realizing it: TextMate. Draggable, reorderable, the works. And I never use them. Why? Because there's a project list drawer that is about a gazillion times more useful. I can collapse groups, open subsections, etc, and concentrate on just the files I need to bounce around in. It's tabs on steroids, but vertically aligned. Meanwhile, the tabs across the top of the window show me... right now, 4 tabs. Out of about 90 in the project. The rest hang off on a click-list like the Safari bookmarks bar. I don't know about you, but I find that annoying. No visibility, no single-click or single-glance... bleah. Shoots the entire idea in the head, IMO. *shrug*



    In fact, if anyone has any advice on how to turn the damned things off, I'd be much happier with an additional couple of lines of text viewable. The one case I can see for having them come in handy, is that they are selectable by Cmd-<number>, so after I manually set up a workspace of tabs, I could navigate them that way. Unfortunately, I usually have more than 10 windows I'm bouncing around in. Bummer.



    Tabs somehow always feel like an almost-but-not-quite solution to a problem that hovers on the edge of reality. Just tantalizing enough to be enticing, but never solid enough to be really quite there. Frustrating.
  • Reply 30 of 67
    kim kap solkim kap sol Posts: 2,987member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    It's funny, but I realized tonight that I've been using a well-tabbed app for a few weeks now without even realizing it: TextMate. Draggable, reorderable, the works. And I never use them. Why? Because there's a project list drawer that is about a gazillion times more useful. I can collapse groups, open subsections, etc, and concentrate on just the files I need to bounce around in. It's tabs on steroids, but vertically aligned. Meanwhile, the tabs across the top of the window show me... right now, 4 tabs. Out of about 90 in the project. The rest hang off on a click-list like the Safari bookmarks bar. I don't know about you, but I find that annoying. No visibility, no single-click or single-glance... bleah. Shoots the entire idea in the head, IMO. *shrug*





    Indeed...the 'vertical tabs' have always been a slightly more elegant solution when compared to 'horizontal tabs'. You can fit much more info and exercise much finer control on the tabs...the only real disadvantage is the wasted screen area. But since all Macs have moved to widescreen, I don't think this wasted space should be a concern...especially to those who love tabs...these people obviously don't care to simultaneously see a whole bunch of info at once since they're ready to hide some info within a tab so I don't know how they'd be mad if their window was a bit wider and covering more of the desktop or underlying windows.



    I admit that last comment may be inflammatory. I've heard all the stories about why horizontal tabs are better than then vertical lists/tabs...but these stories have always exhibited a weak point. Some people would have me believe that, somehow, info in other windows or even the desktop was important and shouldn't be covered up...so it's apparently a big scandal to have cross-app info being hidden but this problem doesn't seem to be a bother when the hidding is done in an inter-app fashion. That's some horseshit reasoning.
  • Reply 31 of 67
    project2501project2501 Posts: 433member
    People who oppose tabs because OS has such a good multitasking, is an interesting consept. I personally like tabs because my own multitasking isn't so efficient, I often like to momentarily stop the process what I was doing, do something else, and when I return continue right from where I left. Tabs serve as short term bookmarks for me. I have a 12" screen as well so the screen estate is precious. I always found it should be that with alt+tab you choose the program and with ctrl+tab the working view in the program. Don't get me wrong though, tab work well in some programs, but if the program is small/simple/dedicated enough there is no need for tabs, iCal Address book for example. But console and finder would certainly benefit from tabs. Tabs work well with adium so propably iChat could benefit from them as well.
  • Reply 32 of 67
    chuckerchucker Posts: 5,089member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    The UI feels Snappier(tm), I take it?



    Well, Terminal text rendering is annoyingly slow.
  • Reply 33 of 67
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Can't argue with that - turning off transparency helps a lot. Unfortunately, I use that as my default so I can *drumroll* see what's going on in another window even if it's partially or fully occluded by my active window. Another thing tabs aren't going to do, I'm afraid... at least, I don't think so. I suppose you could come up with a way of doing that. Might be kind of neat.



    I've gotta say that IM is another area where I don't get the use of tabs. If I'm actively chatting with >1 person, then I want to see what their responses are at a glance, to see who I should respond to, and with what. With tabs, I have to go click on each tab with a new msg in it in turn, just to get an overview of the conversations. New msg alert badges tell me what chats have new incoming info, but I can't see all of them at once. (You can only *type* in one window at a time, but you can *read* many at once.) I prefer to peg the windows to the screen edges so I can keep an eye on everything at once, and close windows out as they go dormant. When I'm not actively chatting, I have no windows open. And while I'm not quite down at a 12" screen, I am on a 15" PB G4. Kickin' it 1280x854 old skool. (Close to the same pixel space as the new 13.3" MacBook non-pro FWIW.) Maybe I'll try Adium again, but last time I tried it, the tabs really didn't work for me. Chat windows do generally meet the similar-size requirement though.



    The more I think about it, I think we have a better tab implementation staring us in the face in the disclosure list UI widget in a drawer. Reorganizable, groupable, drop targets... pretty darned close. And the move to wider ratio screens means moving pixel use horizontally is a better use than chewing up vertical space. Add in the very nice algorithm Apple uses in Safari tabs for distinguishing between shortened titles, toss in a size-selectability, and voila - very nice tabs on the side instead of the top. Rather like OmniWeb already has... Would be easy to implement, and, AFAICT, a better implementation than the traditional tab bar spanning the window.



    Interesting to think of Column View as just nested tabbed spaces, eh?
  • Reply 34 of 67
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    It's a stop-gap, sure, and Tabs wouldn't fit in with a HIG/Fitt's Law/ perfect GUI world. Then again lots of OS X already wouldn't. Look, Apple hasn't/can't leave 1024x768 behind. There are probably hundreds of thousands of OS X installations on 1024x768. And yet...they have. I can't help it, I'm just bitter. Sometimes OS X is a real pain in the ass on a small screen. It's wasteful with screen space at times. Exposé is a bit better than tabs, but again, on a small screen, it almost loses its usefulness with more than a few windows. Sigh...I can't wait until I get a MacBook...that extra resolution will be very nice.



    Sorry to derail the thread. And I was getting carried away. I just think tabs in iChat and maaaybe (still not sure how I feel about this) Finder, with good implementation as discussed, would be neat. Along with making Tabs better in Safari too, with drag n drop, reordering, detaching, etc.
  • Reply 35 of 67
    chuckerchucker Posts: 5,089member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Kickin' it 1280x854 old skool. (Same pixel space as the new 13.3" MacBook non-pro FWIW.)



    Well, slightly more. The 15-inch PowerBooks were 3:2 (15:10), not 16:10.
  • Reply 36 of 67
    project2501project2501 Posts: 433member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    I've gotta say that IM is another area where I don't get the use of tabs. If I'm actively chatting with >1 person, then I want to see what their responses are at a glance, to see who I should respond to, and with what.



    I assume you haven't used adium with growl, all new messages run on top of all programs, and afterthat all tabs have indicator, if they have new messages or not. It works very much to my liking, but I guess it's stupid to argue about ones preferences.
  • Reply 37 of 67
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Project2501

    I assume you haven't used adium with growl, all new messages run on top of all programs, and afterthat all tabs have indicator, if they have new messages or not. It works very much to my liking, but I guess it's stupid to argue about ones preferences.



    No, I haven't. Can I admit that 'new msgs bring window to front' is the first thing I turn *off* in every IM client I use? I *HATE* windows popping up in my face when I'm working. Give me a nice subtle indicator somewhere, and stay out of my way.



    *ahem*



    Anywho...
  • Reply 38 of 67
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Chucker

    Well, slightly more. The 15-inch PowerBooks were 3:2 (15:10), not 16:10.



    Damn, you replied while I edited that.
  • Reply 39 of 67
    project2501project2501 Posts: 433member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    No, I haven't. Can I admit that 'new msgs bring window to front' is the first thing I turn *off* in every IM client I use? I *HATE* windows popping up in my face when I'm working. Give me a nice subtle indicator somewhere, and stay out of my way.



    *ahem*



    Anywho...




    I find that growls notifications are/can be very subtle, but again to each of his own. I use music video style notifications, where growl opens translucent bar to lover part of the screen for few seconds.
  • Reply 40 of 67
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Oh that's cute. Might have to take another gander at that. Inactive alerts are one thing, but windows that pop to the front and *steal the damned keyboard focus* are quite another. Grr. Apparently this is common on other systems, as none of my coworkers seem to think this is unusual or in any way, y'know, *wrong*. (I'm the lone Mac user.)
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