Keynote post mortem: More (unspoken) shots at MS

2

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  • Reply 21 of 44
    serranoserrano Posts: 1,806member
    [quote]Originally posted by Telomar:

    <strong>Motorola is the world's 2nd largest mobile phone manufacturer yet Apple chose to team up with Sony Ericsson. I really can't imagine Motorola liked that.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    The sony.com web-based games going mac was an early indicator of the talks going on. Everquest and associated Sony software must be a spillover benefit of this deal.



    Sorry about the double.



    [ 07-19-2002: Message edited by: serrano ]</p>
  • Reply 22 of 44
    gordygordy Posts: 970member
    [quote]Originally posted by Kickaha:

    <strong>What, you're believing that '20x more on iPod marketing than OS X marketing' quote from MS?

    Personally, I don't see it.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>

    The iPod comment was not part of my statement. This is the crux of my argument:

    [quote]gordy: I've never used XP, but I know that it has a lot of features like intergrated instant messaging, multiple users, movie editing, etc., from the Madonna commercials alone. Can average PC users (not techies) say that about Mac OS X?<hr></blockquote>

    If that is a valid statement, then OSX is not being market aggressively. There has been no commercial on OSX, and no OSX ads outside of Mac-centric or tech publications. Apple needs to get the word out. Hell, we know it's good...
  • Reply 23 of 44
    Excellent thread! I agree wholeheartedly.



    And yes Apple NEEDS to start advertising OS X. Everyone out there knows about XP. Ask anybody in the PC world about OS X and you'll just get a blank stare.



    Can anybody remember the last time Apple ran great ads selling their system software?



    That's too bad, because the future of OS X looks very bright.



    Now where is that new hardware...
  • Reply 24 of 44
    screedscreed Posts: 1,077member
    I don't want to start a "Build Your Own Commercial" tangent -- but...



    Most users know the Windows screen layout from work or home. Gray taskbar with ugly, little system tray icons. What if Joe Consumer might switch by just seeing OS X.



    So...

    -----

    On the TV Screen: Mac OS X in full frame, iTunes being seen and playing in the background, the user has iChat and a Web browser. Dock porn. Just 20 seconds of somebody using it.



    [white letters, black background, fading in and out]

    "No runtime errors"

    "The only blue screen is your background."

    "Secure."

    "Simple."

    "Elegant."

    [fade to white]

    <a href="http://www.apple.com/switch"; target="_blank">www.apple.com/switch</a>

    -----



    The current "Switch" campaign addresses bad Windows user experiences but don't address the bad Windows interface. (I know there's the XP theme but many people are still stuck in Win95a or Millennium).



    Screed
  • Reply 25 of 44
    I thought Jaguar looked awesome. I can't wait till Spring loaded folders too! I love those spring loaded folders! It's the only thing I miss from OS 9. So glad they finally brought it into OS X.
  • Reply 26 of 44
    Great thread!!



    As I watched the keynote what impressed me the most was the attitude change by Apple. I'm from the Lisa days and the original Mac. At that time Apple was IT! Then something strange happened, Steve Jobs was "forced" to leave Apple. Very, very, very strange. To this day I still believe there where some under the table deals between Bill Gates and Apple management. Since that time, Apple has had a monkey on it's back - Microsoft. When Steve came back to Apple I'm certain he wanted nothing more then to give Microsoft the boot. Steve completely surprised me when he made the deal with Microsoft and made IE the Mac's default browser. But it soon became clear to me why he had done that - to buy Apple some time. Play nice with the enemy while you get your troops in place.



    Fast forward to today. Microsoft has shown it's true colors. No one trusts nor wishes to do business with Microsoft. Even it's allies are secretly cheering Apple on. In today's world of e-mail, Internet and such, Microsoft's Office Apps aren't as critical has they once where 5 years ago. If you really need to send someone a document you can just copy and paste it into an e-mail.



    So what impressed me the most from the keynote? Apple is telling Microsoft to go to hell. ABOUT TIME!



    On a side note about Apple's lack of advertising OS X. Are you kidding me? EVERYONE knows about OS X. They are just watching and waiting for the right time to switch. Not everything is in place just yet. But it's coming. Microsoft is so fat and ugly it can only go down, and Apple can only go up. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />



    Edit: Side note added.
  • Reply 27 of 44
    stevesteve Posts: 523member
    [quote]Originally posted by Amorph:

    <strong>Did anyone else notice that Apple just replaced Outlook? It didn't dawn on me until after the keynote, because they came up with a different way of handling the myriad problems that Outlook tries to tackle, but Jaguar has publishable calendars and a buffed-up Mail client.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    They killed my beloved Stickies, too! ... ... ...
  • Reply 28 of 44
    zozo Posts: 3,115member
    and there is STILL no support for damn LABELS. Damn you Apple.



    Nonetheless, is Apple ready for this fight? Will they be able to get the message accross to the other 95% of PC users?



    I have a feeling Apple is getting a bit too cocky with MS and may want to take it a little slower for a little bit longer until everything is even more mature.
  • Reply 29 of 44
    aphelionaphelion Posts: 736member
    I'm so glad to read a thread that cuts through the negativity on these boards about MWNY. There's a BIG picture here that most have missed. As a Mac user I don't care for the cost or way Apple has rolled out the .mac program and the OSX upgrade. As an AAPL shareholder I applaud the effort and see the need, but still would have liked to see a softer landing for iTools users.



    [quote]

    Originally posted by Amorph:

    Did anyone else notice that Apple just replaced Outlook? It didn't dawn on me until after the keynote, because they came up with a different way of handling the myriad problems that Outlook tries to tackle, but Jaguar has publishable calendars and a buffed-up Mail client.

    <hr></blockquote>



    Can an upgrade to AppleWorks be far behind? Or even a little help with OpenOffice? When either of these two things happen who would want to pay $500 for Office?



    [ 07-21-2002: Message edited by: Aphelion ]



    [ 07-21-2002: Message edited by: Aphelion ]</p>
  • Reply 30 of 44
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Replacing Outlook with mail.app and iCal?



    How do you replace a product that doesn't exist? The Mac had e-mail and calendar applications BEFORE a beefed-up mail.app and iCal, that wasn't the issue.



    Hint:

    Exchange



    ------



    I really don't understand Apple's attitude with Microsoft now.



    All this talk of "taking the gloves off" and such just makes me laugh. As if Apple is competition to Microsoft. As if Apple is so far ahead of Microsoft in any way that there is a real "fight" out there. And even past that, as if there even NEEDS to be a fight.



    This is manufactured by Jobs and the "I hate MS more than I love my own platform" Mac-istas and for what? To sell a few more computers? Like a politician falling behind in the poll so he starts slinging mud?



    It looks as if the maturity Jobs appeared to have miraculously gained when MS helped pull them out of a sticky situation is evaporating.



    I remember something to the effect of...

    I think it is incredibly stupid for us to believe that for Apple to survive, Microsoft has to fail."

    --Macweek (May 16, 1997)



    "We have to let go of a few things here. We have to let go of the notion that for Apple to win, Microsoft has to lose."

    --Macworld Expo Boston keynote speech (August 6, 1997)





    Following those statements were some of the best years Mac users have ever had.



    Welcome back to the old-school boys.
  • Reply 31 of 44
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    I think you're taking this thread and situation a bit too seriously yourself.
  • Reply 32 of 44
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Not anymore seriously than anyone else, I don't think.



    Just offering my perspective.
  • Reply 33 of 44
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    [quote]Originally posted by groverat:

    <strong>Not anymore seriously than anyone else, I don't think.



    Just offering my perspective. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Eh, you're probably right. We do tend to take this stuff little too seriously.
  • Reply 34 of 44
    andersanders Posts: 6,523member
    Great thread indeed. You know that Apple is doing something right when people normally bitching over the stall of speed celebrating a MW without any speedchange to HD. And since I´m a software guy this was heaven.



    I have been thinking about this .Mac stuff a bit and the floodwave of new small functional programs from Apple. Why not let .Mac be to software what the iMac is to hardware?



    The iMac is all you need (a screen, computer, keyboard, mouse and speakers in a neat package) .Mac could be everything you need on the software side always updated (X, AW, iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, Backup, Rendevouz, iCal, etc.) and always on your desktop on a virtual HD that also holds 100MB of your own files for you and a email adress for $100 a year ("less than $1 per month per program") and free the first year after you have bought the computer. When you need a program you just moves it from the virtual folder to your local HD.



    The different from today is minimal. You get all these things with you Mac when you buy it today but have to pay upgrade price. This way you pay an annual fee for all updates and unlike with MS plans you can be sure that Apple WILL update at least half the programs each year. And when the customer say well the imac is really a nice computer but what about software the salesman can say "All you can think of free first year an then just $100 per year for all updates, also to the OS" Less confusing and more up-to-date OS on most computers. A win-win for consumers and Apple
  • Reply 36 of 44
    frawgzfrawgz Posts: 547member
    [quote]Originally posted by Telomar:

    <strong>Actually I noticed a the same thing that you did Amorph but the other thing that really struck me was the blow Apple dealt out to Motorola.



    Motorola is the world's 2nd largest mobile phone manufacturer yet Apple chose to team up with Sony Ericsson. I really can't imagine Motorola liked that.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    It seems to me that Motorola barely even knows Apple exists, judging by their own website. Besides, as others have pointed out, Sony Ericsson is apparently the furthest ahead in terms of embracing the future.
  • Reply 37 of 44
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,215member
    I don't think it's really against Microsoft per se. I fell that Apple is in better shape financially than in the previous 5 years. They must break their dependance on Products that they cannot somewhat control.



    I noticed this trend a few years back. Once the Apple store was created everyone lauded it at Apples response to DELL. Well that wasn't it..Apple wasn't intrested in creating a fully configurable online store it was to retain as much profit as they could.



    Apple also killed High Ed sales from many Retailers. Again this helped Apple retain as much profits.



    Apple Stores. Again to retain Apple profits.



    Apple and the Mac as you've known it is changing rapidly. They are very much software driven and very much into controlling their destiny. Purchasing companies and killing the PC version of the app is nothing to them. Don't be fooled Apples very own self preservation is very strong.



    Do I disagree with them ...in some ways but I also realize that ISV have their own Self Preservation..one that means they cannot focus entirely on one Platform and survice in many cases. I understand that and don't blame them.



    Office would still be a very difficult app to replace but as for Microsoft. I'm happy to admit that Office is the only app from Microsoft that really matters to me. IE...don't care. I could live with Omniweb or Chimera. Outlook...I don't need it per se ...just it's functions. iCal or a 3rd party would work fine for me.



    Apple's independance againt MS will help us in the long run. The areas that Apple must succeed in is Education, Content Creation with an emphasis on Video creation and Post Production and the consumer market. I never expect Apple to make any significant inroads into Business(Large).



    I look for an eventual Apple competitor to Exchange Server. Shouldn't be that hard but you must have the client software already entrenched(mail.app)



    This is going to be a FUN next Decade.
  • Reply 38 of 44
    bradbowerbradbower Posts: 1,068member
    [quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:

    <strong>I don't think it's really against Microsoft per se. I fell that Apple is in better shape financially than in the previous 5 years. They must break their dependance on Products that they cannot somewhat control.



    I noticed this trend a few years back. Once the Apple store was created everyone lauded it at Apples response to DELL. Well that wasn't it..Apple wasn't intrested in creating a fully configurable online store it was to retain as much profit as they could.



    Apple also killed High Ed sales from many Retailers. Again this helped Apple retain as much profits.



    Apple Stores. Again to retain Apple profits.



    Apple and the Mac as you've known it is changing rapidly. They are very much software driven and very much into controlling their destiny. Purchasing companies and killing the PC version of the app is nothing to them. Don't be fooled Apples very own self preservation is very strong.



    Do I disagree with them ...in some ways but I also realize that ISV have their own Self Preservation..one that means they cannot focus entirely on one Platform and survice in many cases. I understand that and don't blame them.



    Office would still be a very difficult app to replace but as for Microsoft. I'm happy to admit that Office is the only app from Microsoft that really matters to me. IE...don't care. I could live with Omniweb or Chimera. Outlook...I don't need it per se ...just it's functions. iCal or a 3rd party would work fine for me.



    Apple's independance againt MS will help us in the long run. The areas that Apple must succeed in is Education, Content Creation with an emphasis on Video creation and Post Production and the consumer market. I never expect Apple to make any significant inroads into Business(Large).



    I look for an eventual Apple competitor to Exchange Server. Shouldn't be that hard but you must have the client software already entrenched(mail.app)



    This is going to be a FUN next Decade.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Very good post, an interesting viewpoint that I hadn't fully elaborated or put into summary so well. Your grammar could use some work, but the content is pure gold.
  • Reply 39 of 44
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    [quote]Apple's independance againt MS will help us in the long run.<hr></blockquote>



    Why more important or helpful than, say, breaking the dependence on Adobe?



    [edit]



    Here's my broader point:



    The OS wars are over, Apple lost a LONG time ago. It will not restart the OS wars. They are over. Microsoft won.



    If you/we continue to look at this as if Apple and Microsoft are real competitors fighting for market share you won't be able to see it correctly.



    If Apple can provide a strong customer base to make the MacBU lots of money, all this talk is moot because MS will let them keep making money on the Mac platform.



    [ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
  • Reply 40 of 44
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,215member
    [quote] Very good post, an interesting viewpoint that I hadn't fully elaborated or put into summary so well. Your grammar could use some work, but the content is pure gold.



    <hr></blockquote>



    Thanks Brad. I'm litterally using my computer on the floor because I just moved and need to buy a new 'puter desk so typing is a PITA.





    [quote]Originally posted by groverat:

    <strong>



    Why more important or helpful than, say, breaking the dependence on Adobe?



    [edit]



    Here's my broader point:



    The OS wars are over, Apple lost a LONG time ago. It will not restart the OS wars. They are over. Microsoft won.



    If you/we continue to look at this as if Apple and Microsoft are real competitors fighting for market share you won't be able to see it correctly.



    If Apple can provide a strong customer base to make the MacBU lots of money, all this talk is moot because MS will let them keep making money on the Mac platform.



    [ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</strong><hr></blockquote>





    "Apple has lost the OS Wars"



    That is a Myth. There never was an OS war that was won. It still exists. Microsoft has one battle after battle but winning the War may never happen. If we still have OS X if we still have Linux and BSD then the battles will remain and some will be won by Apple, Linux and other smaller OS's.



    Apple cannot exceed by allowing Microsoft leverage. Microsofts greatest strengths have been the incredible fortune to become the de facto standard. They have used those means effectively by curtailing Open Standards in lieu of Proprietary standards. The only way to attack and defeat Microsoft will be to BREAK these standards. Apple doesn't have to seek independance from Adobe because Adobe doesn't make a competing OS..hence they cannot "Print Money" as Jobs likes to say. As a matter of fact Apple and Adobe need to be allies as much as possible. Let me illustrate.





    -.doc format



    Apples move to PDF in the OS not only gave them most of the advantages of Display Postscript for cheap but it breaks the dependance of .doc. Adobe has been working on this for years and Apple deftly dovetails their needs in with Adobes.



    -.DirectX



    Apple purchase OpenGL from Conix. Sure this has helped Gaming and to a certain extent 3D apps but the real prize may be OpenGL's enhancement via an API like <a href="http://www.khronos.org/openml/index.html"; target="_blank">OpenML</a> which is another attempt to break Microsofts Proprietary DirectX. Should Apple be able to comfortably leverage their existing Tech with this API it would go along way towards improving the platform.



    Outlook

    It's already been mentioned on these boards about the significance of iCal and iSync. Apple is laying groundwork to break the Exchange stranglehold. mail.app is adding features and I wouldn't be suprised to see a lightweight Server with Exchangelike features eventually pop into OSX Server. The work alone on mail.app proves that Apple intends for this app to be the one it's users will standardize on. iSync uses SyncML which should show up in more devices. Palm sync is going bye bye and the only game in town.



    Networking

    Apple has really closed the gap here. OS9 was pretty much a basic networking OS while OSX is a heavyweight. Not only has Apple moved to LDAP in a big way but they're adding the "Apple Touch" with things like Rendezvous based on ...once again Open <a href="http://www.zeroconf.org/"; target="_blank">Zero Config</a>. In addition they play nice with MS when they have to.



    Vertical Markets



    What's going to capture the minds of Computer users going forward? It's not going to be the latest Brower or Office Suite update. It's the things like Desktop Video made easy. It's sharing information between devices and reducing the clutter and headaches involved . Apple is setting itself up to dominate from the top down. There's no excitement in Windowsland. The excitement there is simply the evolutionary stuff like Memory types and AGP busses. That's not going to appeal to the masses.





    The masses want software that performs. Apple is well suited to provide a cohesive group of software apss that soon will change the way people interact with their computer. They kicker is that they're using standards available to everone ...the crafty part is that it doesn't hurt Apple to do so...yet it's the antithesis of what Microsoft wants. There is your NEW Battle Groverat. Look and you will see it's clearly defined. Apple is no longer pushing Apple invented Tech as before. They are picking their battles wisely.



    Microsoft is huge but even Goliath was felled by Davids Stone. The time is now...and I think that Apple realizes this. The next two years will undoubtedly be the most exciting/nervewracking period in 10 years. Be prepared.
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