Apple, bring back "laptops"... to hell with "notebooks"

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
When can we expect Apple to get its acts together on the Intel portable computers front? I am so tired of reading about all these stories of burning/exploding/egg-frying/discoloring/overheating/skin-blistering/whining/you-name-it-they-are-it Intel Apple notebooks! I've been dying to get a new portable Mac to replace my aging G3 iBook but I simply can't get myself to right now, due to all the incredible quality problems Apple's notebook line seems to be suffering right now, and has been for the last half-year! Educated guesses as to when Apple can turn their notebooks (meh) back into proper laptops are definitely welcome! Considering that other - almost equally slick and thin - Core Duo notebooks (Dell, ThinkPad) don't get anywhere as warm as Apple's MB/MBP, and the fact that the whole reason Apple switched to Intel is because they can make cooler-running processors with better performance, Apple's argument that the whole industry is moving toward hotter-running notebooks sounds lamer and lamer by the day.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 63
    chuckerchucker Posts: 5,089member
    Have you actually tried a MacBook or MacBook Pro yourself?



    No?



    Then what are you basing your bias on? Some random scarce reports from people who have too much time on your hands?



    Get real and create an informed opinion. The MacBook and MacBook Pro laptops are excellent, excellent products. I know many people who are exceedingly happy with them, including myself. Yes, they get hot. No, not uncomfortably so. Yes, there are issues. No, they're not common.
  • Reply 2 of 63
    dave k.dave k. Posts: 1,306member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by cygsid

    When can we expect Apple to get its acts together on the Intel portable computers front? I am so tired of reading about all these stories of burning/exploding/egg-frying/discoloring/overheating/skin-blistering/whining/you-name-it-they-are-it Intel Apple notebooks! I've been dying to get a new portable Mac to replace my aging G3 iBook but I simply can't get myself to right now, due to all the incredible quality problems Apple's notebook line seems to be suffering right now, and has been for the last half-year! Educated guesses as to when Apple can turn their notebooks (meh) back into proper laptops are definitely welcome! Considering that other - almost equally slick and thin - Core Duo notebooks (Dell, ThinkPad) don't get anywhere as warm as Apple's MB/MBP, and the fact that the whole reason Apple switched to Intel is because they can make cooler-running processors with better performance, Apple's argument that the whole industry is moving toward hotter-running notebooks sounds lamer and lamer by the day.



    I have a white MacBook. It gets as hot as my old 12" PB. It is not unbearable heat.
  • Reply 3 of 63
    cygsidcygsid Posts: 210member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Chucker

    Have you actually tried a MacBook or MacBook Pro yourself?



    No?



    Then what are you basing your bias on? Some random scarce reports from people who have too much time on your hands?







    I have. Got a feel for both the MB and the MBP at two Apple Stores. I talked to a co-worker who got an MBP and he confirmed that his does get really really HOT. I've also read the gazillion reports on the web... and have been following the mac world/web long enough to know the current situation just isn't normal. Talking of bias, do you have actual statistics of the occurrence of these problems? Do you know for a fact that the problems are really isolated, and do not affect a much larger percentage of the user population than normal? My bet is you don't. So if bias there is, it's probably more on your side (yes, there is such a thing as positive bias).
  • Reply 4 of 63
    bigcbigc Posts: 1,224member
    ...is it surprising to you that all you find on the net are complaints ?



    try searching Pismo too hot, or Powerbook too hot, or I don't like *anything*

  • Reply 5 of 63
    mwswamimwswami Posts: 166member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Bigc

    ...is it surprising to you that all you find on the net are complaints ?



    try searching Pismo too hot, or Powerbook too hot, or I don't like *anything*




    I am sorry, I have to agree with cygsid. I am not happy with how hot MBP gets. I don't have experience with any other Core Duo portables but I didn't expect this when I bought it.
  • Reply 6 of 63
    chuckerchucker Posts: 5,089member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Bigc

    ...is it surprising to you that all you find on the net are complaints ?



    try searching Pismo too hot, or Powerbook too hot, or I don't like *anything*



    Yeah, do try, because you'll find that the Aluminum PowerBooks were actually hotter.
  • Reply 7 of 63
    mwswamimwswami Posts: 166member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Chucker

    Yeah, do try, because you'll find that the Aluminum PowerBooks were actually hotter.



    Not in my experience. I also own a PowerBook (1.25GHz, now about 3 yrs old). It gets nowhere as hot as the MBP.
  • Reply 8 of 63
    cygsidcygsid Posts: 210member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Chucker

    Yeah, do try, because you'll find that the Aluminum PowerBooks were actually hotter.



    Even assuming that is the case, what does that say about mac notebooks then? We know for a fact at this point that a substantial portion of MB/MBP do get very very hot. We also know that many - comparable - Core Duo PC laptops do not get anywhere near as hot. So where does that leave us? Comtemplating Apple's incompetence at making reasonably cool notebooks as a constant? I can't think of a more depressing thought then... as that would mean that any hope for such a laptop from Apple is an exercise in pure futility. To somewhat concur with you, I do believe that Apple makes an unreasonable tradeoff toward quietness and thinness over coolness. However I also would like to believe that, due to just plain inexperience with making Intel-based laptops, Apple was simply not able to make the best laptops they could at the time, and that at some point in the future they will produce a far better, cooler, and more problem-free set of notebooks, worthy of being called laptops again. Here is to hoping then. Just better make it soon Apple, and give some hints that you are actually working on such better MB/MBP by acknowledging the current set of problems as abnormal rather than as standard fare with no hope of improvement.
  • Reply 9 of 63
    chuckerchucker Posts: 5,089member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by cygsid

    Even assuming that is the case, what does that say about mac notebooks then?



    It says that Apple puts a focus on:

    ?_little thickness and overall dimensions

    ?_little weight

    ?_low noise levels

    ?_good looks.



    Which, put together, cause:

    ?_worse heat dissipation

    ?_lower battery life

    ?_higher pricing

    ? component issues, e.g. the lack of dual-layer burning on most models.



    Whereas many manufacturers put different priorities.



    It really is that simple.
  • Reply 10 of 63
    I think Apple 'notebook' consumers are more sensitive to heat issues after coming from the land of G4's. My 400 Mhz Tibook was a dream machine and a true 'laptop'. More recent Tibooks and Albooks have been hotter but not as hot as the PC side.



    (I had a friend buy a PC notebook with a desktop P4 chip and I found out about the large industry that surrounds notebook cool pads. He eventually bought an older Pentium 3 based notebook to find a lighter and cooler notebook.)



    Apple notebook buyers are now finding out about the chips from the other side. Remember that these are lower power chips than what has been in notebooks on PC side and they are still 'too' hot. I also agree with Chucker that Apple focus is too much on noise and the chips run hotter in MB and MBP than some comparable PC notebooks because of the fan programming. It should be a fairly simple fix for Apple to redo the thermal profile (similar to some upgrades to the original G5 towers that ran too hot.)



    I have a MB and I was really wanting it 'underclocked' at 1.6 Ghz just to get a 'laptop'. Intel does have the low power chips that Apple really needs to put in a future product for those of us who want a 'laptop' and may give up some performance.



    P.S. I have also found that Rosetta really converts my MB from a 'laptop' to a 'notebook'.
  • Reply 11 of 63
    giantgiant Posts: 6,041member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Chucker

    Yeah, do try, because you'll find that the Aluminum PowerBooks were actually hotter.



    Not true. I've put aluminum powerbooks right next to my MBP and the MBP (which, according to online reports, is average) is hotter at idle than any al powerbooks I've used even at full load. However, my titanium gets hot (but not as hot) and I've heard that certain al powerbooks (1st gen 12"?) get about as hot as the MBP.
  • Reply 12 of 63
    furious_furious_ Posts: 88member
    you guys should try my IBM ThinkPad, this thing is an oven.
  • Reply 13 of 63
    bergzbergz Posts: 1,045member
    My 1.67 15" Al PB is omelette-worthy. I have it propped up on two books in order to reduce the fan noise. hi-tek indeed.



    --B
  • Reply 14 of 63
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,229moderator
    I have a powerbook and I set it to encode video all day long yesterday and it got pretty hot. In fact, my old g3 ibook used to feel uncomfortable on my leg when playing games. I always had to resort to getting a book to sit it on, which sorted the whole problem btw. Maybe there should be some lightweight heat-resistant pad that comes with the MB and MBP to use on your lap.



    I don't think I'd mind the heat given that the processors are so fast. I'd probably just sit my sausage rolls on the left of my trackpad (they'll fit on the widescreen size) to keep them warm for lunch time. Of course the grease might affect the Macbook.
  • Reply 15 of 63
    drnatdrnat Posts: 142member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Marvin

    I have a powerbook and I set it to encode video all day long yesterday and it got pretty hot. In fact, my old g3 ibook used to feel uncomfortable on my leg when playing games. I always had to resort to getting a book to sit it on, which sorted the whole problem btw. Maybe there should be some lightweight heat-resistant pad that comes with the MB and MBP to use on your lap.



    I don't think I'd mind the heat given that the processors are so fast. I'd probably just sit my sausage rolls on the left of my trackpad (they'll fit on the widescreen size) to keep them warm for lunch time. Of course the grease might affect the Macbook.




    I have a 15" PB 1.67 & 17" MBP - initially the 17" was a bit hotter, but since the firmware update, the PB is hotter.



    Overall really impressed with the MBP & would buy another tomrrow!
  • Reply 16 of 63
    Now I haven't actually had a MacBook nor a MacBookPro, but if they get as hot as reported in some cases, shouldn't they automatically switch off?



    For example - My 6800GT slows down at 120 Degrees-C but never reaches above 70, my CPU slows down at 80 Degrees-C but never goes above 55 - So, I imagine that if the case is actually hot enough to fry eggs, how how must the components inside be? Fried to a crisp perhaps...



    These reports must be exagerated a little, although since the case is made out of Aluminium instead of plastic, it probably conducts the heat better, but even at that, the core for either the CPU or GPU should have shut down at those temperatures.



    I own a IBM ThinkPad T42 and a old Dell Latittude - Now my think pad get warm/mild, most people would say hot, but really, on my bare lap, I think it's just warm/mild, although this Dell is another story. It gets quite hot, only from the battery, but still hot, not enough to "burn" my lap, and it's not unbarable either, although if I thought about it, I would have to say it does get hot.



    If you think about it, Alienware has a 19" laptop with 2 HDD RAID, nVidia SLI, Dual Core CPU, 2Gb Ram - Now think about that...and it doesn't get hot...because its got cooling - lots of fans blowing across the board and out the other end.



    This is what the need to do with MB and MBP - What would be good is to offer a "Quiet Mode" inside some type of option in OS X so they could lower fan noise, although increasing temperature, it would be ideal for perhaps having your laptop on your desk in a class or in a library or lecture, but when you need it on your lap where it doesn't have to be as quiet, say at home when you are probably listening to music anyway, or out in the back garden (thanks to wifi lol)or on a bus, train, plane or car journey.



    Makes sence to give the user control of the fan speeds and let them alter them to the safest min and max speeds inside some type of option in OS X.



    I would really like a MacBook with a descent graphics card, but preferable if they put it up to 14" giving them a bit more room in the case for a graphics card - a nVidia 7600 Mobile 256mb would be good.
  • Reply 17 of 63
    chuckerchucker Posts: 5,089member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by DD_nVidia

    Now I haven't actually had a MacBook nor a MacBookPro, but if they get as hot as reported in some cases, shouldn't they automatically switch off?



    Yonah shuts off at 100 degrees C. It never reached more than 83 on a MacBook Pro.



    Quote:

    So, I imagine that if the case is actually hot enough to fry eggs, how how must the components inside be? Fried to a crisp perhaps...



    I don't know about MacBook values, but my MacBook Pro has shown values anywhere between 20 and 83 degrees. During usual operation, temperature is somewhere between 50 and 65 degrees.



    Quote:

    These reports must be exagerated a little, although since the case is made out of Aluminium instead of plastic, it probably conducts the heat better, but even at that, the core for either the CPU or GPU should have shut down at those temperatures.



    "Those temperatures" being what temperatures, exactly? Per Intel's assessment, the MacBook Pro's CPU never reaches or comes close to critical levels. There's almost 15% room between 83 degrees (which it rarely reaches) and 100 degrees (which it never reaches).



    Quote:

    I own a IBM ThinkPad T42 and a old Dell Latittude - Now my think pad get warm/mild, most people would say hot, but really, on my bare lap, I think it's just warm/mild, although this Dell is another story. It gets quite hot, only from the battery, but still hot, not enough to "burn" my lap, and it's not unbarable either, although if I thought about it, I would have to say it does get hot.



    My MacBook Pro does not get hot enough to burn my lap. I know this from extensive experience.



    Quote:

    If you think about it, Alienware has a 19" laptop with 2 HDD RAID, nVidia SLI, Dual Core CPU, 2Gb Ram - Now think about that...and it doesn't get hot...because its got cooling - lots of fans blowing across the board and out the other end.



    It not only has cooling (and thus NOISE!), it also has a significantly thicker case (THICKNESS) and a heavier case (WEIGHT).



    Recall the post above where I stated:



    Quote:

    It says that Apple puts a focus on:

    ?_little thickness and overall dimensions

    ?_little weight

    ?_low noise levels

    ?_good looks.



    Which, put together, cause:

    ?_worse heat dissipation

    ?_lower battery life

    ?_higher pricing

    ? component issues, e.g. the lack of dual-layer burning on most models.



    Whereas many manufacturers put different priorities.



    It really is that simple.



    Your example is a textbook example of the very point I made. Alienware's priorities were reasonable pricing, lots of performance, and lots of features. The shortcomings were in terms of thickness, weight, noise levels, looks and battery life. In short, the Alienware model you refer to is just about the antithesis of a MacBook Pro, and thus aims for a complete different target audience.



    Quote:

    This is what the need to do with MB and MBP - What would be good is to offer a "Quiet Mode" inside some type of option in OS X so they could lower fan noise, although increasing temperature, it would be ideal for perhaps having your laptop on your desk in a class or in a library or lecture, but when you need it on your lap where it doesn't have to be as quiet, say at home when you are probably listening to music anyway, or out in the back garden (thanks to wifi lol)or on a bus, train, plane or car journey.



    Makes sence to give the user control of the fan speeds and let them alter them to the safest min and max speeds inside some type of option in OS X.



    I wouldn't mind a user setting to choose between high noise level and low heat vs. low noise level and high heat. I've been trying to figure out how to implement this.
  • Reply 18 of 63
    giantgiant Posts: 6,041member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bergz

    My 1.67 15" Al PB is omelette-worthy. I have it propped up on two books in order to reduce the fan noise. hi-tek indeed.



    --B




    Interesting, because I've compated a 1.67 1440x960 powerbook to my MBP and the powerbook is flat-out cool. The bottom gets warm after prolonged use, but not remotely near where my MBP does at idle. And while the top of my MBP also gets pretty hot (so hot that I got the marware palmrest protector to deal with it), the top of the powerbook is only barely perceptively warmer after use than when it's off. The MBP also has normal MBP temp readings.
  • Reply 19 of 63
    i have a 1.67 powerbook which can get warm under heavy load.

    my wife has a 2.0 macbook pro which gets unbearably hot under moderate load.
  • Reply 20 of 63
    bergzbergz Posts: 1,045member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by giant

    Interesting, because I've compated a 1.67 1440x960 powerbook to my MBP and the powerbook is flat-out cool. The bottom gets warm after prolonged use, but not remotely near where my MBP does at idle. And while the top of my MBP also gets pretty hot (so hot that I got the marware palmrest protector to deal with it), the top of the powerbook is only barely perceptively warmer after use than when it's off. The MBP also has normal MBP temp readings.



    Mine's 1280 x 854, and the fan runs audibly in winter with only 25% CPU. I cannot even browse the internet with it on my lap. I have to position it so that the only part touching my legs is the very edge. And even so it's like a space heater and I sweat without fail.



    The "top" part of the machine, the keyboard and trackpad, don't get very hot at all. It's all on the bottom.



    --B
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