If all it does is cannibalize sales of iMacs and Mac Pros what is the huge incentive for Apple who is already selling what they want to sell to this already captive audience?
Other folks proposing the mini-tower IS using switcher sales as the rationale for a mini-tower so skip the "you don't get it" line. We get it. We simply don't agree and neither do some of your allies.
That a mini-tower will increase sales to some degree is hard to argue with. The real question is to what degree and it is sufficiently more profitable to move Jobs?
As I said earlier, he's an idealist and has some vision of computing. Yes, it can limit market share, but its also what makes Apple what it is.
Vinea
And I'd be more than happy to go elsewhere if Apple doesn't want my business, but steve doesn't want that either. My choices are laptop on stick, expensive workstation, or windows and none of those sound all that great to my ears.
And I'd be more than happy to go elsewhere if Apple doesn't want my business, but steve doesn't want that either. My choices are laptop on stick, expensive workstation, or windows and none of those sound all that great to my ears.
If your business is a $300-$1300 tower Steve doesn't want your business from all the evidence to date. Mr. Dell does.
A $1499 tower is possible although it has only happened once that I can recall and only for 6 months. You also have the option of a small form factor computer.
An Mac mini tower does not compete with a Windows mini tower.
Yes, that's exactly what it competes with. A MacBook competes with a Dell Inspiron, a MacBook Pro with a Dell Latitude, and a Mac Pro with a Dell Precision. A Mac mini competes with with an eMachines CrapXL2488, and an iMac competes with whatever the fuck Gateway calls them.
You make some assertions that you do not demonstrate or prove. You claim a Mac mini tower would cannibalize iMacs and Mac Pros sales. Not necessarily so. Apple can price a mini tower so it does not. A mini tower equipped like an iMac should sell for more. The iMac will continue to sell because it is a better deal for those who want that level of performance and don't need expandability.
However, let me give you a personal example of Mac sales that would be severely impacted by a new Mac mini tower. A few month ago, I switched from Digital Performer to Logic for a music workstation. My music computer did not meet the system and performance requirements. I needed another Mac, and would have gladly purchased a mini tower if it had been available. It was not, but I found a Mirror Drive Doors PowerMac, the newest model with quiet fans, on eBay. It has dual 1.25 G4 CPUs. I am satisfied with my 'newer' Mac from eBay, and it will be sufficient for several more years I'm sure. It was a lost sale for Apple however.
So it seems that Apple is not selling what potentially could be sold to 'this already captive audience.' Steve is the one who doesn't get it. Not only losing sales to Mac users but sales to potential switchers. Throughout history, there have been great generals who had blind spots that keep them from being all they could have been.
couple things, only loosly related: How do you increase the value of a mac midtower so that it is out of the mini/imac range, but still competative with pc equivalents? Add stuff.
What stuff?
Windows XP. Call it a SwitchMac. :P
<watches as the entire forum recoils in horror> See? The only ones who would want it are those who specifically DON'T want the ease and simplicity of mini/iMac.
But that's just a random thought. The point is that Apple could, I suspect, if it were to bring such a device to market, add enough good stuff (NOT talking bout win here) to clearly define it as a mid-point in the product lineup.
Ok, next thought:
Why are we still talking about switching? Switching implies giving up the old. No one has to do that anymore. The concept, functionally, of switching, has evaporated, thanks to boot camp + intel. Now it's down to simply, "Who makes the better PC?" Which Apple clearly does, on both the Aesthetic, value, and, now, price grounds.
Don't misunderstand me. Steve is the best CEO Apple ever had. I just believe he makes his share of mistakes, like everyone. Having blind spots and making mistakes does not stop anyone from being great.
A Mac Midtower would compete directly agains PCs within the PC market segment, but ALSO would compete against other macs within the Mac+PC and the Mac Only markets. PC market is much bigger though.
Why are we still talking about switching? Switching implies giving up the old. No one has to do that anymore. The concept, functionally, of switching, has evaporated, thanks to boot camp + intel. Now it's down to simply, "Who makes the better PC?" Which Apple clearly does, on both the Aesthetic, value, and, now, price grounds.
Switching has become a moot point.
Extra points for a good remark 8)
Although I keep my doubts, maybe me and all the other tower-nay-sayers are in for surprise, apparently apple is waiting for some secret massive shipment
Yes, that's exactly what it competes with. A MacBook competes with a Dell Inspiron, a MacBook Pro with a Dell Latitude, and a Mac Pro with a Dell Precision. . .
I'll grant you that it may be going in this direction because the Macs can run Windows software so much better. Possibly this was the point being made by Alonso Perez that I missed. However, I believe that it will remain a competition of platforms for quite some time yet, not head to head competition of individual models of Macs and Windows PCs.
I don't think we are to the point where someone says, "I want a new mini tower. I think I'll look at what Dell, Apple and HP have to offer." It's either Windows PCs or Macs that people want. Unless someone has a job where both platforms are required, people don't usually don't own a mix of platforms, like, "My desktops are from Dell but my laptops are all Mac Books." It could be going that way, but certainly not overnight.
It is in this regard that I said a Mac mini tower competes with other models of the Mac, not with Windows mini towers.
It is in this regard that I said a Mac mini tower competes with other models of the Mac, not with Windows mini towers.
Now I can't even tell which side of the argument you're on. You seemed to be all in support of this idea, and now you're saying that such a machine would only compete with Apple's own machines? If you think that, then you really should also think that there's no point spending $$ developing such a machine in the first place.
The point is, that I'm sure lots of people do consider the/would like to switch from Windows to Mac, but find/know that Apple don't offer a desktop machine that they want and therefore don't switch. I'm also sure that some people leave the platform (i.e. switch Mac to Windows) because Apple don't offer the machine that they want.
The point of a $999 - $2499 (why's everyone else obsessed with a $1499 entry point? That's not low enough in my opinion, and I've already explained in detail how Apple can maintain their high margins even at $999) is to attract more switchers and to stop others leaving the platform, thereby increasing market share and therefore significantly increasing units sold.
If all a mini tower did was reduce sales of iMacs and Mac Pros, it would be a bad move.
Has Apple caught on to this? I really don't know. I seem to remember Apple switching ads on TV recently. In any case, it will take a while for the general public to change their way of thinking IMHO. The average Joe still thinks of either Windows or Mac, and never the two shall meet.
If your business is a $300-$1300 tower Steve doesn't want your business from all the evidence to date. Mr. Dell does.
A $1499 tower is possible although it has only happened once that I can recall and only for 6 months. You also have the option of a small form factor computer.
Vinea
Low end PowerMacs got down to $1299 during the G4 days. Prices and the performance gap have been getting higher since the g5 was introduced.
What I want:
1.83ghz Core 2 Duo
1gb DDR2 SDRAAM
250GB Hard drive
256mb 7600GS video card
16x Superdrive
I can get such a machine from Velocity Micro (who has a similar quality rep) for $899. I'd willing to pay $1299 for such a machine from Apple and put it the second optical drive myself.
I don't think we are to the point where someone says, "I want a new mini tower. I think I'll look at what Dell, Apple and HP have to offer." It's either Windows PCs or Macs that people want.
I don't really think so, especially since all mac's can now run windows. If you walked into a computer store expecting to buy a computer for around a $1000 and you saw a bunch of HP's, Gateways and a smaller Mac tower all for the same price, give or take $100, the mac would certainly have a fair shot. More so then it ever has in the past. I bet you the Mac would look prettier and that would help sell it even if the costomer was told they had to install windows themselves or the geek squad could do it.
But as it stands right now both the imac and the Mac Mini look kind of foreign to people, so they don't trust it. But if it was s standard tower-like design (albeit prettier) then it would sell. People aren't all that bright when it comes to computers. They expect desktops to look a certain way and they expect laptops to look a certain way. Apple doesn't have a problem with it's laptops since they fit the bill, and considerign their laptops sale have increased since switching to x86 it just goes to show you that philosophy stands.
In my opinion the PC user right now has the best scenario. They can buy any computer on the market. They have the most chocies. They can buy a Dell or an HP or a Gateway or a Mac and be perfectly happy running Windows XP. The people who are in a bind are the current Mac users who have a to find a way to wedge themselves and their needs into one of Apples current (and limited) product heirarchy because they want to stick with OSX. PC users don't know what they're missing with OSX, so they don't really care what they use and hence have the most choice. So to make PC users mac users you have to offer them what appears to be a nice PC like everything else (aka what they want) and have to market Mac OSX as a bonus feature you can't get with any other vendor.
Salesperson
"Windows, yeah, they all can run it, but you can only get OSX on a mac"
But as it stands right now both the imac and the Mac Mini look kind of foreign to people, so they don't trust it.
Bingo! I like the way you said that, because it is a big factor in in buying, 'consumer perception.' Windows users are comfortable with a tower / mini tower form factor.
Bingo! I like the way you said that, because it is a big factor in in buying, 'consumer perception.' Windows users are comfortable with a tower / mini tower form factor.
Even tho they might be more comforatable with towers/mini towers they shouldn't be. I think the iMac and Mac mini are the most consumer friendly computers. Think of the percentage of people that upgrade there towers. Its TINY. When I was little I never understood why there were two boxes. Then the iMac came out and I thought thats perfect, you get rid of all those extra wires that get in the way.
So I understand why some people might want a mid range tower, but the percentage of people that would just rather have a computer and a screen all in one is so much bigger. So I don't think apple will make a mid range tower.
I do think tho that they will make the iMac 17" the educational iMac, and make the top line iMac a HD 23".
So I understand why some people might want a mid range tower, but the percentage of people that would just rather have a computer and a screen all in one is so much bigger. So I don't think apple will make a mid range tower.
If that were true the PC world would be filled with iMac ripoffs and people wouldn't want towers. But that's just not true. When it comes to desktop computers, consumers typically want towers and they want to be able to buy new monitors without buying new computers. Whether they upgrade or not. Otherwise you might as well buy a laptop if you want something that comes with the screen built in.
Even tho they might be more comforatable with towers/mini towers they shouldn't be. I think the iMac and Mac mini are the most consumer friendly computers. . .
Sorry. It was a poor choice of words on my part. ApplePi said, "look foreign . . . so they don't trust it." It doesn't matter what you and I think, it is what Windows buyers expect in a computer. It also doesn't matter whether they upgrade a tower or not. If it's what they want, it's what they'll buy.
If that were true the PC world would be filled with iMac ripoffs and people wouldn't want towers. But that's just not true. When it comes to desktop computers, consumers typically want towers and they want to be able to buy new monitors without buying new computers. Whether they upgrade or not. Otherwise you might as well buy a laptop if you want something that comes with the screen built in.
To add something to that, what a person really needs and what they want and are subsequently willing to buy are two different things. To quote an old college professor of mine, sales is the practical application of psychology.
It doesn't matter what you and I think, it is what Windows buyers expect in a computer.... If it's what they want, it's what they'll buy....
Microsoft has engrained the idea that a computer is a box and a screen, so when a windows user sees a Mac it confuses them.
"But that's just not true. When it comes to desktop computers, consumers typically want towers and they want to be able to buy new monitors without buying new computers." My family and I have both Mac and Microsoft. Three Desktops, two (microsoft), and a G4 power mac. And two laptops, both macs. We have never bought new monitors for our desktops. So unless you have researched the statistics, I didn't think most people would buy new monitors for their computers.
I might be wrong, I've only been a Mac fan for a couple of years.
Comments
If all it does is cannibalize sales of iMacs and Mac Pros what is the huge incentive for Apple who is already selling what they want to sell to this already captive audience?
Other folks proposing the mini-tower IS using switcher sales as the rationale for a mini-tower so skip the "you don't get it" line. We get it. We simply don't agree and neither do some of your allies.
That a mini-tower will increase sales to some degree is hard to argue with. The real question is to what degree and it is sufficiently more profitable to move Jobs?
As I said earlier, he's an idealist and has some vision of computing. Yes, it can limit market share, but its also what makes Apple what it is.
Vinea
And I'd be more than happy to go elsewhere if Apple doesn't want my business, but steve doesn't want that either. My choices are laptop on stick, expensive workstation, or windows and none of those sound all that great to my ears.
...Windows refugees...
lol, I love that part!
And I'd be more than happy to go elsewhere if Apple doesn't want my business, but steve doesn't want that either. My choices are laptop on stick, expensive workstation, or windows and none of those sound all that great to my ears.
If your business is a $300-$1300 tower Steve doesn't want your business from all the evidence to date. Mr. Dell does.
A $1499 tower is possible although it has only happened once that I can recall and only for 6 months. You also have the option of a small form factor computer.
Vinea
An Mac mini tower does not compete with a Windows mini tower.
Yes, that's exactly what it competes with. A MacBook competes with a Dell Inspiron, a MacBook Pro with a Dell Latitude, and a Mac Pro with a Dell Precision. A Mac mini competes with with an eMachines CrapXL2488, and an iMac competes with whatever the fuck Gateway calls them.
You make some assertions that you do not demonstrate or prove. You claim a Mac mini tower would cannibalize iMacs and Mac Pros sales. Not necessarily so. Apple can price a mini tower so it does not. A mini tower equipped like an iMac should sell for more. The iMac will continue to sell because it is a better deal for those who want that level of performance and don't need expandability.
However, let me give you a personal example of Mac sales that would be severely impacted by a new Mac mini tower. A few month ago, I switched from Digital Performer to Logic for a music workstation. My music computer did not meet the system and performance requirements. I needed another Mac, and would have gladly purchased a mini tower if it had been available. It was not, but I found a Mirror Drive Doors PowerMac, the newest model with quiet fans, on eBay. It has dual 1.25 G4 CPUs. I am satisfied with my 'newer' Mac from eBay, and it will be sufficient for several more years I'm sure. It was a lost sale for Apple however.
So it seems that Apple is not selling what potentially could be sold to 'this already captive audience.' Steve is the one who doesn't get it. Not only losing sales to Mac users but sales to potential switchers. Throughout history, there have been great generals who had blind spots that keep them from being all they could have been.
couple things, only loosly related: How do you increase the value of a mac midtower so that it is out of the mini/imac range, but still competative with pc equivalents? Add stuff.
What stuff?
Windows XP. Call it a SwitchMac. :P
<watches as the entire forum recoils in horror> See? The only ones who would want it are those who specifically DON'T want the ease and simplicity of mini/iMac.
But that's just a random thought. The point is that Apple could, I suspect, if it were to bring such a device to market, add enough good stuff (NOT talking bout win here) to clearly define it as a mid-point in the product lineup.
Ok, next thought:
Why are we still talking about switching? Switching implies giving up the old. No one has to do that anymore. The concept, functionally, of switching, has evaporated, thanks to boot camp + intel. Now it's down to simply, "Who makes the better PC?" Which Apple clearly does, on both the Aesthetic, value, and, now, price grounds.
Switching has become a moot point.
Don't misunderstand me. Steve is the best CEO Apple ever had. I just believe he makes his share of mistakes, like everyone. Having blind spots and making mistakes does not stop anyone from being great.
Seconded
Yes, that's exactly what it competes with.
One-and-a-halfted.
A Mac Midtower would compete directly agains PCs within the PC market segment, but ALSO would compete against other macs within the Mac+PC and the Mac Only markets. PC market is much bigger though.
Why are we still talking about switching? Switching implies giving up the old. No one has to do that anymore. The concept, functionally, of switching, has evaporated, thanks to boot camp + intel. Now it's down to simply, "Who makes the better PC?" Which Apple clearly does, on both the Aesthetic, value, and, now, price grounds.
Switching has become a moot point.
Extra points for a good remark 8)
Although I keep my doubts, maybe me and all the other tower-nay-sayers are in for surprise, apparently apple is waiting for some secret massive shipment
Like the sound of that?!
Yes, that's exactly what it competes with. A MacBook competes with a Dell Inspiron, a MacBook Pro with a Dell Latitude, and a Mac Pro with a Dell Precision. . .
I'll grant you that it may be going in this direction because the Macs can run Windows software so much better. Possibly this was the point being made by Alonso Perez that I missed. However, I believe that it will remain a competition of platforms for quite some time yet, not head to head competition of individual models of Macs and Windows PCs.
I don't think we are to the point where someone says, "I want a new mini tower. I think I'll look at what Dell, Apple and HP have to offer." It's either Windows PCs or Macs that people want. Unless someone has a job where both platforms are required, people don't usually don't own a mix of platforms, like, "My desktops are from Dell but my laptops are all Mac Books." It could be going that way, but certainly not overnight.
It is in this regard that I said a Mac mini tower competes with other models of the Mac, not with Windows mini towers.
It is in this regard that I said a Mac mini tower competes with other models of the Mac, not with Windows mini towers.
Now I can't even tell which side of the argument you're on. You seemed to be all in support of this idea, and now you're saying that such a machine would only compete with Apple's own machines? If you think that, then you really should also think that there's no point spending $$ developing such a machine in the first place.
The point is, that I'm sure lots of people do consider the/would like to switch from Windows to Mac, but find/know that Apple don't offer a desktop machine that they want and therefore don't switch. I'm also sure that some people leave the platform (i.e. switch Mac to Windows) because Apple don't offer the machine that they want.
The point of a $999 - $2499 (why's everyone else obsessed with a $1499 entry point? That's not low enough in my opinion, and I've already explained in detail how Apple can maintain their high margins even at $999) is to attract more switchers and to stop others leaving the platform, thereby increasing market share and therefore significantly increasing units sold.
If all a mini tower did was reduce sales of iMacs and Mac Pros, it would be a bad move.
Switching has become a moot point.
Has Apple caught on to this? I really don't know. I seem to remember Apple switching ads on TV recently. In any case, it will take a while for the general public to change their way of thinking IMHO. The average Joe still thinks of either Windows or Mac, and never the two shall meet.
If your business is a $300-$1300 tower Steve doesn't want your business from all the evidence to date. Mr. Dell does.
A $1499 tower is possible although it has only happened once that I can recall and only for 6 months. You also have the option of a small form factor computer.
Vinea
Low end PowerMacs got down to $1299 during the G4 days. Prices and the performance gap have been getting higher since the g5 was introduced.
What I want:
1.83ghz Core 2 Duo
1gb DDR2 SDRAAM
250GB Hard drive
256mb 7600GS video card
16x Superdrive
I can get such a machine from Velocity Micro (who has a similar quality rep) for $899. I'd willing to pay $1299 for such a machine from Apple and put it the second optical drive myself.
I don't think we are to the point where someone says, "I want a new mini tower. I think I'll look at what Dell, Apple and HP have to offer." It's either Windows PCs or Macs that people want.
I don't really think so, especially since all mac's can now run windows. If you walked into a computer store expecting to buy a computer for around a $1000 and you saw a bunch of HP's, Gateways and a smaller Mac tower all for the same price, give or take $100, the mac would certainly have a fair shot. More so then it ever has in the past. I bet you the Mac would look prettier and that would help sell it even if the costomer was told they had to install windows themselves or the geek squad could do it.
But as it stands right now both the imac and the Mac Mini look kind of foreign to people, so they don't trust it. But if it was s standard tower-like design (albeit prettier) then it would sell. People aren't all that bright when it comes to computers. They expect desktops to look a certain way and they expect laptops to look a certain way. Apple doesn't have a problem with it's laptops since they fit the bill, and considerign their laptops sale have increased since switching to x86 it just goes to show you that philosophy stands.
In my opinion the PC user right now has the best scenario. They can buy any computer on the market. They have the most chocies. They can buy a Dell or an HP or a Gateway or a Mac and be perfectly happy running Windows XP. The people who are in a bind are the current Mac users who have a to find a way to wedge themselves and their needs into one of Apples current (and limited) product heirarchy because they want to stick with OSX. PC users don't know what they're missing with OSX, so they don't really care what they use and hence have the most choice. So to make PC users mac users you have to offer them what appears to be a nice PC like everything else (aka what they want) and have to market Mac OSX as a bonus feature you can't get with any other vendor.
Salesperson
"Windows, yeah, they all can run it, but you can only get OSX on a mac"
But as it stands right now both the imac and the Mac Mini look kind of foreign to people, so they don't trust it.
Bingo! I like the way you said that, because it is a big factor in in buying, 'consumer perception.' Windows users are comfortable with a tower / mini tower form factor.
Yes, that's exactly what it competes with.
No, the biggest competition for a Mac is the second hand market.
Especially for the towers.
Don't need all the processing power of the current high end? Buy the high end from 1-2 years ago! That would make a G5 DP 2.0-2.5GHz.
Bingo! I like the way you said that, because it is a big factor in in buying, 'consumer perception.' Windows users are comfortable with a tower / mini tower form factor.
Even tho they might be more comforatable with towers/mini towers they shouldn't be. I think the iMac and Mac mini are the most consumer friendly computers. Think of the percentage of people that upgrade there towers. Its TINY. When I was little I never understood why there were two boxes. Then the iMac came out and I thought thats perfect, you get rid of all those extra wires that get in the way.
So I understand why some people might want a mid range tower, but the percentage of people that would just rather have a computer and a screen all in one is so much bigger. So I don't think apple will make a mid range tower.
I do think tho that they will make the iMac 17" the educational iMac, and make the top line iMac a HD 23".
So I understand why some people might want a mid range tower, but the percentage of people that would just rather have a computer and a screen all in one is so much bigger. So I don't think apple will make a mid range tower.
If that were true the PC world would be filled with iMac ripoffs and people wouldn't want towers. But that's just not true. When it comes to desktop computers, consumers typically want towers and they want to be able to buy new monitors without buying new computers. Whether they upgrade or not. Otherwise you might as well buy a laptop if you want something that comes with the screen built in.
Even tho they might be more comforatable with towers/mini towers they shouldn't be. I think the iMac and Mac mini are the most consumer friendly computers. . .
Sorry. It was a poor choice of words on my part. ApplePi said, "look foreign . . . so they don't trust it." It doesn't matter what you and I think, it is what Windows buyers expect in a computer. It also doesn't matter whether they upgrade a tower or not. If it's what they want, it's what they'll buy.
If that were true the PC world would be filled with iMac ripoffs and people wouldn't want towers. But that's just not true. When it comes to desktop computers, consumers typically want towers and they want to be able to buy new monitors without buying new computers. Whether they upgrade or not. Otherwise you might as well buy a laptop if you want something that comes with the screen built in.
To add something to that, what a person really needs and what they want and are subsequently willing to buy are two different things. To quote an old college professor of mine, sales is the practical application of psychology.
It doesn't matter what you and I think, it is what Windows buyers expect in a computer.... If it's what they want, it's what they'll buy....
Microsoft has engrained the idea that a computer is a box and a screen, so when a windows user sees a Mac it confuses them.
"But that's just not true. When it comes to desktop computers, consumers typically want towers and they want to be able to buy new monitors without buying new computers." My family and I have both Mac and Microsoft. Three Desktops, two (microsoft), and a G4 power mac. And two laptops, both macs. We have never bought new monitors for our desktops. So unless you have researched the statistics, I didn't think most people would buy new monitors for their computers.
I might be wrong, I've only been a Mac fan for a couple of years.