I have one question that's been bugging me for a while now: with all their i-stuff coming out these last few years, how is it possible that Apple hasn't released any solution for the biggest i of them all: web browsing? So, one of you guys suggested that Apple might take over Chimera, and frankly, that wouldn't surprise me - it doesn't have to be Chimera per se, any browser-producing firm will do -. It reminds me of the early days of iTunes, which was built by many of the staff that had once developed the already long forgotten SoundJam MP. Anyway, I think Apple can't go past this definite lack in their product line. I mean, they have an answer to just about any product of their greatest competitor, Microsoft. They have the OS, they have had Appleworks for a while now, they have a ton of iApps and Mail and have developed another handful of nichy stuff for Jagwire that maybe fifteen people in the entire world will use, but they don't have a web browser.
Well I liked Omniweb 4.1 for a little while. It has a beautiful interface, but I finally got sick of the crashing.
Switched to Mozilla, hated the look of the interface. Found out about the pinstripe theme from this thread and like it a lot better now. So far, stable as can be.
My only question is, is there an easy way to get all of my bookmarks from Omniweb into Mozilla?
I'm with you theGelding....Chimera as No.1 browser and IE as it's backup. I don't find the interface bad at all. I don't see what the problem in regards to it is. It's nice and clean and ain't in your face!!
OmniWeb *is* faster at rendering pages that don't contain massively complex or large tables. That's where the bottleneck is now -- that each cell of a table is a subclass of a NSView. OmniWeb 5 is supposed to significantly trim that bit of code down.
But OW5 isn't here yet.
It's worth mentioning that OmniWeb is much faster on a dual machine versus a single because OW is so heavily threaded. Mozilla and Chimera, however, use only one processor for the most part. So, you don't notice just a boost in speed when taking a Mozilla-based browser for a single to a dual proc Mac.
Perhaps I can tolerate OmniWeb better because I'm on a dual proc Mac.
Simple. Use the ProvessViewer or run "top -du" in the Terminal.
When an app is working hard, if the CPU usage for it only reaches to about 97-103% (there can be a small margin for error) then it is probably only using one processor. If you ever see it use significantly more than 100%, then it is using both procs.
Now that I can log in, I'm using Chimera much more. I do have a problem with it, though - why is it so crappy for entering text when you want to type a new topic or a reply? It's always lagging behind. As if it has to think hard for each letter I type. Nothing like a text editing application.
Luca, funny you should mention that because I just posted the following on another forum:
[quote]Well, I'm a fast typer. So, the text box doesn't keep up with me and it *appears* to be awfully slow. Even as I am typing this post, the text is lagging a few words behind me. I have never experienced a problem like this in *any* app other than the Mozilla spawns.
Last I heard, it would be next to impossible to implement true cocoa text boxes in the Gecko framework. Even the current "aqua" widgets in Chimera are not true aqua widgets -- they just copy the pxm#s from aqua and paste them over Gecko's elements.
That's a shame, too, because I do lots of typing through a browser and OmniWeb's text boxes are just *so* much friendlier. Hrmm. Shoot, Gecko/Chimera /whatever can't even move the cursor properly with the arrow keys!
Try this. Type a few sentences with proper punctuation. Add a few extra periods and commas in for the heck of it. Now, hold the option key and press the left arrow. Works fine most of the time. Now, try the right arrow. It stops cold when it hits an end punctuation mark. Option-up and option-down aren't even implemented at all! Neither is control-up and control-down. And the triple-click functionality is half-assed. Rather than select an entire paragraph, it selects the current line and the one line above it. When you're entering long passages of text and have to edit quickly, these keyboard shorcuts are essential.
This browser still needs LOTS of work. If the Chimera guys could get the text boxes working like a proper Mac OS X app should, that would be a mammoth incentive for me to switch.<hr></blockquote>Believe me, you are not the only one to complain about the slowness and bugginess of the text boxes in Chimera.
Next to impossible? Jesus, that statement just makes me very pessemistic about the future of Chimera. The browser just has a very "skinned" UI feel, I can't explain it. The aqua buttons never looked right (now I know why, Brad). There is this annoying gray bar underneith the Cocoa toolbar when the bookmarks bar is closed. The layout of the preferences is too clumped up (the "Navigation" preference icon should be broken up into three). There are many, many other things that irk me, and will probably slip under the radar.
Do we HAVE to trade speed and compatibility for UI friendliness? Brad, when OW5 finally gets released, will CSS2, etc. finally solve all the incompatibility problems, or will there always be things that it won't display properly just because it's one of those "niche" browsers? As far as I know, many pages are designed for either Netscape (Mozilla/Gecko) or Internet Explorer. Aren't there certain elements that must be included in either? Can OmniWeb hope to compete with its "from-scratch" innards?
I'm tired of playing browser wars. I'm constantly fluctuating from OmniWeb to Chimera to Internet Explorer, because there always seems to be sites I visit that only one of these can actually render properly. GameSpot.com for instance, has a subcription service, which I am a member of. You can enter your "GameSpot Complete" information in the text boxes in the corner of the screen and press login. Why does this work for Chimera/Internet Explorer, but not OmniWeb? This has nothing to do with CSS implementation at all. I even tried changing OmniWeb's compatibility mode. Still, no dice.
I really, really hope that OW5 delivers, big time. I'm also kind of hoping Apple doesn't go for some insane integration of the finished Chimera into its operating system in, say, 10.3 or 10.4, like they have with iChat, because that's the one area that I'd still like to have control over. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
Is it me or does the "Find" in Chimera not work? Things like this make it currently an unusable browser. The more I use it the more I realize it's not ready for prime time, yet. IF Apple wanted to they could change that. I like the software Apple makes and I think it is usually the best in its class.
However I have noticed IE severely lags in text boxes like this. This is in OS X only. Will Jaguar stop this? When this ocurrs the damn rainbow beachball shows up, so I believe the OS is the culprit, as well as poor coding in Chimera or IE.
Brad, when OW5 finally gets released, will CSS2, etc. finally solve all the incompatibility problems, or will there always be things that it won't display properly just because it's one of those "niche" browsers?<hr></blockquote>If I understand correctly, the engine in 5 will fully support CSS2 as well as several other modern technologies. The CSS code in OW4 was literally tacked on like an afterthought. It was stretching the abilities of the engine already, and some functions just simply aren't possible. That's why they're putting all their effort into rebuilding the majority of the engine from scratch with 5.0
[quote]Why does this work for Chimera/Internet Explorer, but not OmniWeb? This has nothing to do with CSS implementation at all. I even tried changing OmniWeb's compatibility mode. Still, no dice.<hr></blockquote>Unfortunately, there's a lot more than just CSS that's broken in OW4. Javascript only words some of the time and I suspect that's where this problem may be. Also, DHTML is almost completely gone and table sizing still is not completely correct.
[quote]I'm also kind of hoping Apple doesn't go for some insane integration of the finished Chimera into its operating system in, say, 10.3 or 10.4, like they have with iChat<hr></blockquote>iChat is not integrated into the system at all. If you don't like iChat, simply drop it into the trash and you'll never have to see it again. But isn't it integrated with Address Book? No. Rather, *any* app now can have access to the Address Book. So, if the developers choose to, Adium or Fire or Proteus can use the Address Book for buddies in 10.2.
[quote]Originally posted by Aquatik:
Is it me or does the "Find" in Chimera not work?<hr></blockquote>Strange, it works for me. Though, I'm using the latest nightly build. I don't remember if it was working at the last milestone build.
[quote]However I have noticed IE severely lags in text boxes like this. This is in OS X only. Will Jaguar stop this? When this ocurrs the damn rainbow beachball shows up, so I believe the OS is the culprit, as well as poor coding in Chimera or IE.<hr></blockquote>No, no, no. This is strictly a problem with the aforementioned apps. Internet Explorer... well... it's just shit for multitasking. With Chimera, I haven't had a problem with the "beachball" since the 0.3 builds. Chimera is up to 0.4 now -- again, maybe this is a case of you using an older build.
Remember, when you get the "beachball" cursor, that is *NOT* Mac OS X's fault. The cursor only appears when the kernel detects that the app has halted responding to input for 2 seconds or more. Apps in the background are still running fine -- it's just the app in the front puking out. If the app is properly written for multitasking, like OmniWeb, you will never get that cursor.
About the text problems, again, that is strictly a problem with said apps. I have absolutely no speed problems in text boxes with OmniWeb or any other Mac OS X app.
I just use IE 5.1. Its quick, its easy, its free, and it comes preinstalled. I never have any crashes and it pretty much displays everything that I need it too. I am not paying microsoft for it, they gave it to me so I don't see the problem. Why struggle with inferior products? Swallow your pride and take the hit. Microsoft makes the best internet browser avalible and that is a fact. It makes me cringe to think about it but it is cold hard fact. I am not say that some other browser can't render watcha ma thingys .356 x faster. All I am saying is that the whole packages of IE is better than anything that anyone else has to offer. If some one else comes out with something better, I'll switch. But until that day, I am an internet explorer!
On Windows, i preferred Netscape 4.x and stuck with it through 2001. Now on Mac I finally use Internet Explorer. I'd like it to be faster and I have problems with it (and its inability to be customized to my liking), but it presents fewer problems than the other browsers I've tried (Chimera, Omniweb, Netscape, and Mozilla) in OS X. I haven't uninstalled Omniweb yet. I keep thinking that I'll want to keep it. I thought when I first started using it that it would replace IE for me completely. But it's been a while since I opened the thing at all.
<strong>On Windows, i preferred Netscape 4.x and stuck with it through 2001. Now on Mac I finally use Internet Explorer. I'd like it to be faster and I have problems with it (and its inability to be customized to my liking), but it presents fewer problems than the other browsers I've tried (Chimera, Omniweb, Netscape, and Mozilla) in OS X. I haven't uninstalled Omniweb yet. I keep thinking that I'll want to keep it. I thought when I first started using it that it would replace IE for me completely. But it's been a while since I opened the thing at all.
Alex.</strong><hr></blockquote>
For myself, I am a real fan of Mozilla. Open source, most compatible. And as a desinger I like the fact that it has the fewest quirks with CSS.
Chimera is faster, and obviously renders the same, but in CSS a:hover is painfully slow. Go to a site like <a href="http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/"; target="_blank">http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/</a>; and run your mouse over the links on the left. Compare both Chimera and Mozilla/IE and you'll see what I mean.
<strong>Microsoft makes the best internet browser avalible and that is a fact. It makes me cringe to think about it but it is cold hard fact.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's your opinion... it is the most compatible with the largest amount of web sites out there. That doesn't automaticallly make it the best browser though. Since I found tabbed browing, I can't use a browser without it (well, I can, but it's painfully annoying). When IE gets tabs (prob never), maybe I'll consider switching to IE. For right now, Chimera rocks and even though it's barely at 0.4, it's a more efficient browser to use in my opinion. If there's some site that just has to use IE to render properly, then I'll use IE.
Comments
Ah, Steve, where is your pride?
I am looking forward to an Apple Chimera. With their interface know-how it could be great. Just no "Metal"!!!!!!!
Switched to Mozilla, hated the look of the interface. Found out about the pinstripe theme from this thread and like it a lot better now. So far, stable as can be.
My only question is, is there an easy way to get all of my bookmarks from Omniweb into Mozilla?
[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: ryukyu ]</p>
<strong>OmniWeb 4.1 is the fastest and best looking browser.
Personally, I agree about it being the best looking.
It's not the fastest though, and it crashes too much.
<strong>OmniWeb 4.1 is the fastest and best looking browser.
It definately isn't the fastest.
<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
But OW5 isn't here yet.
It's worth mentioning that OmniWeb is much faster on a dual machine versus a single because OW is so heavily threaded. Mozilla and Chimera, however, use only one processor for the most part. So, you don't notice just a boost in speed when taking a Mozilla-based browser for a single to a dual proc Mac.
Perhaps I can tolerate OmniWeb better because I'm on a dual proc Mac.
When an app is working hard, if the CPU usage for it only reaches to about 97-103% (there can be a small margin for error) then it is probably only using one processor. If you ever see it use significantly more than 100%, then it is using both procs.
(dual procs add up to a total of 200% cpu usage)
[ 08-18-2002: Message edited by: Brad ]</p>
[quote]Well, I'm a fast typer. So, the text box doesn't keep up with me and it *appears* to be awfully slow. Even as I am typing this post, the text is lagging a few words behind me. I have never experienced a problem like this in *any* app other than the Mozilla spawns.
Last I heard, it would be next to impossible to implement true cocoa text boxes in the Gecko framework. Even the current "aqua" widgets in Chimera are not true aqua widgets -- they just copy the pxm#s from aqua and paste them over Gecko's elements.
That's a shame, too, because I do lots of typing through a browser and OmniWeb's text boxes are just *so* much friendlier. Hrmm. Shoot, Gecko/Chimera /whatever can't even move the cursor properly with the arrow keys!
Try this. Type a few sentences with proper punctuation. Add a few extra periods and commas in for the heck of it. Now, hold the option key and press the left arrow. Works fine most of the time. Now, try the right arrow. It stops cold when it hits an end punctuation mark. Option-up and option-down aren't even implemented at all! Neither is control-up and control-down. And the triple-click functionality is half-assed. Rather than select an entire paragraph, it selects the current line and the one line above it. When you're entering long passages of text and have to edit quickly, these keyboard shorcuts are essential.
This browser still needs LOTS of work. If the Chimera guys could get the text boxes working like a proper Mac OS X app should, that would be a mammoth incentive for me to switch.<hr></blockquote>Believe me, you are not the only one to complain about the slowness and bugginess of the text boxes in Chimera.
Do we HAVE to trade speed and compatibility for UI friendliness? Brad, when OW5 finally gets released, will CSS2, etc. finally solve all the incompatibility problems, or will there always be things that it won't display properly just because it's one of those "niche" browsers? As far as I know, many pages are designed for either Netscape (Mozilla/Gecko) or Internet Explorer. Aren't there certain elements that must be included in either? Can OmniWeb hope to compete with its "from-scratch" innards?
I'm tired of playing browser wars. I'm constantly fluctuating from OmniWeb to Chimera to Internet Explorer, because there always seems to be sites I visit that only one of these can actually render properly. GameSpot.com for instance, has a subcription service, which I am a member of. You can enter your "GameSpot Complete" information in the text boxes in the corner of the screen and press login. Why does this work for Chimera/Internet Explorer, but not OmniWeb? This has nothing to do with CSS implementation at all. I even tried changing OmniWeb's compatibility mode. Still, no dice.
I really, really hope that OW5 delivers, big time. I'm also kind of hoping Apple doesn't go for some insane integration of the finished Chimera into its operating system in, say, 10.3 or 10.4, like they have with iChat, because that's the one area that I'd still like to have control over. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
However I have noticed IE severely lags in text boxes like this. This is in OS X only. Will Jaguar stop this? When this ocurrs the damn rainbow beachball shows up, so I believe the OS is the culprit, as well as poor coding in Chimera or IE.
Brad, when OW5 finally gets released, will CSS2, etc. finally solve all the incompatibility problems, or will there always be things that it won't display properly just because it's one of those "niche" browsers?<hr></blockquote>If I understand correctly, the engine in 5 will fully support CSS2 as well as several other modern technologies. The CSS code in OW4 was literally tacked on like an afterthought. It was stretching the abilities of the engine already, and some functions just simply aren't possible. That's why they're putting all their effort into rebuilding the majority of the engine from scratch with 5.0
[quote]Why does this work for Chimera/Internet Explorer, but not OmniWeb? This has nothing to do with CSS implementation at all. I even tried changing OmniWeb's compatibility mode. Still, no dice.<hr></blockquote>Unfortunately, there's a lot more than just CSS that's broken in OW4. Javascript only words some of the time and I suspect that's where this problem may be. Also, DHTML is almost completely gone and table sizing still is not completely correct.
[quote]I'm also kind of hoping Apple doesn't go for some insane integration of the finished Chimera into its operating system in, say, 10.3 or 10.4, like they have with iChat<hr></blockquote>iChat is not integrated into the system at all. If you don't like iChat, simply drop it into the trash and you'll never have to see it again. But isn't it integrated with Address Book? No. Rather, *any* app now can have access to the Address Book. So, if the developers choose to, Adium or Fire or Proteus can use the Address Book for buddies in 10.2.
[quote]Originally posted by Aquatik:
Is it me or does the "Find" in Chimera not work?<hr></blockquote>Strange, it works for me. Though, I'm using the latest nightly build. I don't remember if it was working at the last milestone build.
[quote]However I have noticed IE severely lags in text boxes like this. This is in OS X only. Will Jaguar stop this? When this ocurrs the damn rainbow beachball shows up, so I believe the OS is the culprit, as well as poor coding in Chimera or IE.<hr></blockquote>No, no, no. This is strictly a problem with the aforementioned apps. Internet Explorer... well... it's just shit for multitasking. With Chimera, I haven't had a problem with the "beachball" since the 0.3 builds. Chimera is up to 0.4 now -- again, maybe this is a case of you using an older build.
Remember, when you get the "beachball" cursor, that is *NOT* Mac OS X's fault. The cursor only appears when the kernel detects that the app has halted responding to input for 2 seconds or more. Apps in the background are still running fine -- it's just the app in the front puking out. If the app is properly written for multitasking, like OmniWeb, you will never get that cursor.
About the text problems, again, that is strictly a problem with said apps. I have absolutely no speed problems in text boxes with OmniWeb or any other Mac OS X app.
[ 08-18-2002: Message edited by: Brad ]</p>
Alex.
<strong>On Windows, i preferred Netscape 4.x and stuck with it through 2001. Now on Mac I finally use Internet Explorer. I'd like it to be faster and I have problems with it (and its inability to be customized to my liking), but it presents fewer problems than the other browsers I've tried (Chimera, Omniweb, Netscape, and Mozilla) in OS X. I haven't uninstalled Omniweb yet. I keep thinking that I'll want to keep it. I thought when I first started using it that it would replace IE for me completely. But it's been a while since I opened the thing at all.
Alex.</strong><hr></blockquote>
For myself, I am a real fan of Mozilla. Open source, most compatible. And as a desinger I like the fact that it has the fewest quirks with CSS.
Chimera is faster, and obviously renders the same, but in CSS a:hover is painfully slow. Go to a site like <a href="http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/"; target="_blank">http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/</a>; and run your mouse over the links on the left. Compare both Chimera and Mozilla/IE and you'll see what I mean.
<strong>Microsoft makes the best internet browser avalible and that is a fact. It makes me cringe to think about it but it is cold hard fact.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's your opinion... it is the most compatible with the largest amount of web sites out there. That doesn't automaticallly make it the best browser though. Since I found tabbed browing, I can't use a browser without it (well, I can, but it's painfully annoying). When IE gets tabs (prob never), maybe I'll consider switching to IE. For right now, Chimera rocks and even though it's barely at 0.4, it's a more efficient browser to use in my opinion. If there's some site that just has to use IE to render properly, then I'll use IE.