If you're referring to the Crusades, those were a long time ago, and they we're also started by Moorish invasions into Spain. The Christian establishment in all of its shapes and forms is hardly without scars and skeletons, but compared to way Islam has been contorted by empires and madmen, these detractions are negligible.
Most home schooling families that I know of are people that want a Waldorf style education, but can't afford the tuition (or live in a place with no Waldorf school). These types of families usually limit their home schooling to the early grades.
I am not religious, and I can see where I would home school my kids if I could not afford private school and if my public school was not good enough.
Mmm...I've read bad things about Waldorf schools. We're looking into Montessori and I'd rather send my kids to public school than a Waldord school.
Two of the brightest kids I've met are homeschooled. One plays jazz piano amazingly well for his age (or any age according to folks that know good piano playing from bad piano playing which ain't me). Both are very social and probably more well rounded than other kids their age (based on how my cousins are doing...they do public school). The parents make sure there are plenty of social opportunities for them...sports mostly but obviously music too and travel and so forth.
I'd count myself lucky if my kids turned out that great.
As far as AP chem goes...my wife has a PhD in chemisty. I think that we could make do if we went that route. Besides, you don't get to have much fun in chemistry lab anymore.
Vinea
PS DMZ...look into some electronic microscopes. My wife found some (for work) that were reasonably priced and very cool. Dunno the brand but shouldn't be too hard to google. A couple hundred bucks I think...she was temped to buy one and I was like "our oldest kid is 2...buy one in a couple years for less and better rez".
Mmm...I've read bad things about Waldorf schools. We're looking into Montessori and I'd rather send my kids to public school than a Waldord school.
Two of the brightest kids I've met are homeschooled. One plays jazz piano amazingly well for his age (or any age according to folks that know good piano playing from bad piano playing which ain't me). Both are very social and probably more well rounded than other kids their age (based on how my cousins are doing...they do public school). The parents make sure there are plenty of social opportunities for them...sports mostly but obviously music too and travel and so forth.
I'd count myself lucky if my kids turned out that great.
As far as AP chem goes...my wife has a PhD in chemisty. I think that we could make do if we went that route. Besides, you don't get to have much fun in chemistry lab anymore.
Vinea
PS DMZ...look into some electronic microscopes. My wife found some (for work) that were reasonably priced and very cool. Dunno the brand but shouldn't be too hard to google. A couple hundred bucks I think...she was temped to buy one and I was like "our oldest kid is 2...buy one in a couple years for less and better rez".
Ugh....I already took the plunge on the microscope though, mono -- 1000x with a mechanical stage -- right around $500.
The difference of course is that Christian fundamentalists may be a little nutsy, but they're not going to kill anyone
worse: they will make you WISH you were dead...They want the entire world to be like a church service...they want to make the radio free of any fun content certin groups find EVERYTHING offencive...as an insight to the level of which they go, I was once told that if I listened to classic rock, or even oldies, let alone moddern non-christian music, I would be going to hell...
These people are the moddern thought police, they loath the thought that as they say, "THE CHILDREN" may stumble upon something that is not good...their solution is to take it away from EVERYONE! The V-chip and you know...the OFF BUTTON just arent good enough, they do not want ME to watch anythiong but the 700 club and TV preachers and if I have been good, maybe some Fox News Channel...
This is not true of most Christians, as I have said, I am a Christian, the problem, much like in Islam, is a very vocal minority.
I've gone to public schools in Phoenix all my life.
Phoenix has a high-school dropout rate of about 50%. The other 50% are rubber-stamped through the system.
Home schooled kids are almost ALWAYS more literate and more knowledgable.
Think of it this way: Public school provides NO education. You learn NOTHING in public school.
Therefore, home schooled kids, even if they think that God created rifles to kill homosexuals, are probably still more educated than most.
I knew a girl in my history class in high school who thought that the salem witch trials occured in the 1960's... She passed with a C.
In another history class, the teacher gave us the answers to the state-required exam (that was an honors class, btw).
Math is about the only thing that is quantitatively graded, which is also why schools are constantly cutting back on the course requirements.
It's remarkable. I spent all but 1 semester of high school in honors math classes. After that semester, going back into honors was absolutely impossible. Normal math taught me about half of what I needed to know and I was a 98% student in that class, but in honors I barely made it out with a C (and I think it's because I told the teacher all I wanted was to graduate).
And what of those social skills? Everyone always talks about it.
What'd I learn in high school? I learned that I don't speak spanish so I can't even talk to half of my classmates, the international bachaloriate program is a scam to keep white kids away from the 'riff raff', and that cocaine and MDMA are almost currency in some circles.
Oh, and BTW: I went to the 'preppy' school
From what I can tell, homeschooled kids (and I've known plenty) without fail are better educated. Socially, it's probably best that they stay away from what's happening in public schools.
Public schools treat you like cattle--as long as you stay within the fence until you're told to leave, you'll do fine. Just showing up to class ensures a diploma--which is basically a reflection on what they want in the work place.
No creativity, no recognition of brilliance.. There's even a culture of hatred towards students with better grades. It teaches you to conform. You have to be outwardly violent and disruptive just to get a reprimand. The only attention you get is if you're a delinquent or mentally disabled (clinically).
Oddly enough, those relgious hard-liners being pumped out of some home-schooled situations will probably have the ambition and the point of view to become tomorrows leaders, in spite of the fact that they think evolution is a joke and women belong barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
The fact is, public school is debilitating; probably moreso than homeschooling.
I'm agnostic, but I sure as hell don't fear christians. All you people who are fearful of pentacostals need to realize that there are worse things than charter schools EXISTING. At least religious people have a sense of individuality. Christanity says that you yourself are important and a higher power is watching, so if you're not going to do something for yourself, you should do it for God or Jesus or whatever. Public schools make you think you're another number, nobody gives a crap.
I've gone to public schools in Phoenix all my life.
Phoenix has a high-school dropout rate of about 50%. The other 50% are rubber-stamped through the system.
Home schooled kids are almost ALWAYS more literate and more knowledgable.
Think of it this way: Public school provides NO education. You learn NOTHING in public school.
Therefore, home schooled kids, even if they think that God created rifles to kill homosexuals, are probably still more educated than most.
I knew a girl in my history class in high school who thought that the salem witch trials occured in the 1960's... She passed with a C.
In another history class, the teacher gave us the answers to the state-required exam (that was an honors class, btw).
Math is about the only thing that is quantitatively graded, which is also why schools are constantly cutting back on the course requirements.
It's remarkable. I spent all but 1 semester of high school in honors math classes. After that semester, going back into honors was absolutely impossible. Normal math taught me about half of what I needed to know and I was a 98% student in that class, but in honors I barely made it out with a C (and I think it's because I told the teacher all I wanted was to graduate).
And what of those social skills? Everyone always talks about it.
What'd I learn in high school? I learned that I don't speak spanish so I can't even talk to half of my classmates, the international bachaloriate program is a scam to keep white kids away from the 'riff raff', and that cocaine and MDMA are almost currency in some circles.
Oh, and BTW: I went to the 'preppy' school
From what I can tell, homeschooled kids (and I've known plenty) without fail are better educated. Socially, it's probably best that they stay away from what's happening in public schools.
Public schools treat you like cattle--as long as you stay within the fence until you're told to leave, you'll do fine. Just showing up to class ensures a diploma--which is basically a reflection on what they want in the work place.
No creativity, no recognition of brilliance.. There's even a culture of hatred towards students with better grades. It teaches you to conform.
Oddly enough, those relgious hard-liners being pumped out of some home-schooled situations will probably have the ambition and the point of view to become tomorrows leaders, in spite of the fact that they think evolution is a joke and women belong barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
The fact is, public school is debilitating; probably moreso than homeschooling.
Interesting perspective. How old are you? When did you graduate from high school?
Strangely enough when I think of home schooling, religion never came up. I have many friends with special needs children, my son is one. Many school systems do not provide the learning enviroment that is required to let these kids succeed. Also some kids can be down right nasty to the special needs students. Those are the reasons some of people home school.
Strangely enough when I think of home schooling, religion never came up. I have many friends with special needs children, my son is one. Many school systems do not provide the learning enviroment that is required to let these kids succeed. Also some kids can be down right nasty to the special needs students. Those are the reasons some of people home school.
Agreed.. heck, I was told in second grade that I was not ever going to be able to learn to read and would likely never graduate High School...my parents promptly pulled me out and placed me in a private school for the ballance of that year then home schooled me through the 8th grade...here I sit with a High school and college degree...and for the record, I read your post all by my self, so the Indiana education system can stick that in their pipes and smoke it.
Turns out when I was given instructors who would give me a little personal help, I picked it all right up and caught up with my peers in no time.
Sorry to raise a dead thread, but for those parents pulling their special needs children from public schools (while not suing for services) are doing the system a disservice and making it easier for administration to reduce or remove important resources that SHOULD exist.
My mother was the special needs administrator for public school district and because she demanded that the county follow not only the letter but the spirit of the law she was demoted and pushed away. She eventually retired to become an itinerant teacher, but the ground she lost as an admin is biting her in the ass now as they try to force her to change her IEPs because the COUNTY cannot provide the services it is OBLIGED to provide. I suspect they will just stop renewing her contract.
Point is, if parents roll over, the administration have no barrier to effect negative changes.
Mmm...I've read bad things about Waldorf schools. We're looking into Montessori and I'd rather send my kids to public school than a Waldord school.
Whatever you heard can't be universal, because Waldorf schools are the best. I sent my middle daughter to a Montessori school for a few months and it was a disaster, much worse than public schools.
I have even heard other parents say that sending your kids to non-Waldorf schools is a form child abuse, but I think that is a little far over the line.
One of the biggest differences between Montessori and Waldorf is that Waldorf focuses on group activity and crafts in the early grades, where Montessori focuses on individual isolated activities. I think that Montessori is certainly unhealthy for young children, as this is when group dynamics and teamwork start to form.
The only people that I have heard have a problem with Waldorf school fall into four groups
1. People who think it is too socialist (poor people pay less tuition usually, unless the school is full - "we are the only ones who pay full price!", etc).
2. People who are mad because they used to get tuition assistance, and get dropped off the list because the school fills up.
3. People who don't like a particular teacher.
4. People who want their kids to read early. Waldorf schools think that early reading is unhealthy, and I agree - all my kids learned to read in 4th or 5th grade (but caught up with reading quickly). I don't think that early reading (before 3rd grade) is any help at all, and it takes away from the things that you should be learning.
I have to strongy disagree that waldorf schools are "the best." I'm a fan of them when used in moderation. They are very good at helping kids develop certain skills, but very poor at helping them think critically about their views toward the arts, creativity and spirituality and the problems with focusing too much on those areas.
Whatever you heard can't be universal, because Waldorf schools are the best.
It's funny that you say "can't be universal", then make a mind-bogglingly "universal" statement right after. Waldorf is an interesting concept for schooling, but nothing more. It is extremely unsuitable for general purposes. Much like homeschooling, you run risk of alienating your children from the real world and real society out there, making your children focus on the things you believe are important, rather than those the majority deems important.
I have to strongy disagree that waldorf schools are "the best." I'm a fan of them when used in moderation. They are very good at helping kids develop certain skills, but very poor at helping them think critically about their views toward the arts, creativity and spirituality and the problems with focusing too much on those areas.
If you are saying that Waldorf schools create artists rather than art critics, then I agree and approve. I am an atheist, so I have no opinion about spirituality - the Wadorf school is mild enough with it so that it does not bother me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker
It's funny that you say "can't be universal", then make a mind-bogglingly "universal" statement right after. Waldorf is an interesting concept for schooling, but nothing more. It is extremely unsuitable for general purposes. Much like homeschooling, you run risk of alienating your children from the real world and real society out there, making your children focus on the things you believe are important, rather than those the majority deems important.
What I mean when I say that Waldorf schools are "universally good" is that the concept is good - his problem will probably be specific to a particular school (and probably to a particular teacher). Vinea - what were the bad things that you heard?
I look at the graduates of Waldorf schools, and they seem better adjusted, better educated, and more sane than the graduates (on average) from any other type of school.
I graduated in '96, and while I don't disagree with some of the things that you say (especially the Spanish kids), I never encountered the Cocaine or MDMA that you experienced, and I have a tough time believing that there is a 50% drop-out rate.
However, for the record, there are some things I can confirm:
A) Spanish speaking kids had NO DESIRE TO LEARN ENGLISH. Why should they? Every sign, every letter, every menu was in both English and Spanish. Now, the Korean and two African kids, they had to learn English, and they did. There is way too much coddling of the Hispanic American. If they are going to be American, then they need to learn the language of the land: English. Otherwise this country (particularly Arizona) while continue to be divided amongst ethnic lines.
Near-physical violence is given to students with high academic success. Being one of them, but not part of the IB (International Bachaloriate), I was threatened many a time during my stint at North Canyon H.S., and the administration would do nothing, or worse yet, say I was being too sensitive; that it was just typical school-yard antics.
C) The "challenge" of schoolwork is an absolute sham. There was no desire to really try to stretch the mind of myself or the students around me. Just give us the minimum to pass the tests. This was before the whole Testing craze took place.
Schools need to be a place of instruction, supervision, and academic excellence. Not a place for kids to gather, and just hang out.
If you are saying that Waldorf schools create artists rather than art critics, then I agree and approve. I am an atheist, so I have no opinion about spirituality - the Wadorf school is mild enough with it so that it does not bother me.
But art and spiritual pursuits are fields few people can make a career out of. What I'm talking about isn't "artist" vs "art critic," it's "career in the arts/humanities" vs "career in anything else." While I have a couple waldorf friends who have become very successful in the arts, more than a few have not and yet are still pushing on unsuccessfully. The reason I (and a few others I know) believe this is so common is because when a waldorf student enters the real world they recognize that the development of their creativity is the most distinguishing feature, so they are far more likely than a non-waldorf educated student to fall back on it...even if they don't have what it takes to actually make a living at it. The encouragement of an idealist outlook also can foster unrealistic expectations and overconfidence.
An exclusively waldorf-educated student is also, more often than not, at a disadvantage when it comes to analytical fields, not only because of lack of emphasis on them but also because of the glamorization of the arts. For instance, a waldorf kid is significantly more likely to be accepted to a liberal arts school like oberlin or hampshire than MIT (1995-2004 - oberlin: 82, Hampshire: 55, MIT: 2. pdf).
I've seen more than enough problems with how waldorf alums transition to adulthood to know that use of the school has to be handled with care. I strongly share the values its founded on and agree with the philosophy behind it (including anthroposophy), but I have a difficult time endorsing students being exclusively educated within it.
Now, I'm in no way saying that waldorf grads can't be successful in other fields. Quite the contrary. I strongly believe in the value of a waldorf education, but I recognize that there are weaknesses. It's all a trade-off. After all, I believe that a waldorf alum can potentially have a major advantage over non-waldorf students when it comes to the arts and humanities.
An exclusively waldorf-educated student is also, more often than not, at a disadvantage when it comes to analytical fields, not only because of lack of emphasis on them but also because of the glamorization of the arts. For instance, a waldorf kid is significantly more likely to be accepted to a liberal arts school like oberlin or hampshire than MIT (1995-2004 - oberlin: 82, Hampshire: 55, MIT: 2. pdf).
In your study 2 out of 2776 students went to MIT (0.072%), which is almost four times higher than the national average for the 10 year study (10,000 enrolled/45 million graduates = (0.022%).
I realize that a lot of students will go to liberal arts schools, but if you go look at a Waldorf high school science class, you will realize that it is taught the way it should be (i.e. not like public schools). The students do the experiments and formulate their own theories before being taught the "real theory" behind the experiment - there is no faking experiment data to get the right result like we did in public school.
I think that a lot of the artistic bias for post-secondary work comes from the reputation of the school - people with artistic kids send them there in the first place. I don't agree that it is a result of the teaching philosophy.
I'm not very familiar with this Waldorf thing, but it sounds like a diet, and in more ways than one. I'm skeptical of any school that claims to have some new or better way of teaching. If some technique has been shown to work, then any teacher or school could adopt those techniques. You shouldn't need to go to a particular school.
Comments
Think about that beyond individual killings...
If you're referring to the Crusades, those were a long time ago, and they we're also started by Moorish invasions into Spain. The Christian establishment in all of its shapes and forms is hardly without scars and skeletons, but compared to way Islam has been contorted by empires and madmen, these detractions are negligible.
I am not religious, and I can see where I would home school my kids if I could not afford private school and if my public school was not good enough.
Two of the brightest kids I've met are homeschooled. One plays jazz piano amazingly well for his age (or any age according to folks that know good piano playing from bad piano playing which ain't me). Both are very social and probably more well rounded than other kids their age (based on how my cousins are doing...they do public school). The parents make sure there are plenty of social opportunities for them...sports mostly but obviously music too and travel and so forth.
I'd count myself lucky if my kids turned out that great.
As far as AP chem goes...my wife has a PhD in chemisty. I think that we could make do if we went that route. Besides, you don't get to have much fun in chemistry lab anymore.
Vinea
PS DMZ...look into some electronic microscopes. My wife found some (for work) that were reasonably priced and very cool. Dunno the brand but shouldn't be too hard to google. A couple hundred bucks I think...she was temped to buy one and I was like "our oldest kid is 2...buy one in a couple years for less and better rez".
Mmm...I've read bad things about Waldorf schools. We're looking into Montessori and I'd rather send my kids to public school than a Waldord school.
Two of the brightest kids I've met are homeschooled. One plays jazz piano amazingly well for his age (or any age according to folks that know good piano playing from bad piano playing which ain't me). Both are very social and probably more well rounded than other kids their age (based on how my cousins are doing...they do public school). The parents make sure there are plenty of social opportunities for them...sports mostly but obviously music too and travel and so forth.
I'd count myself lucky if my kids turned out that great.
As far as AP chem goes...my wife has a PhD in chemisty. I think that we could make do if we went that route. Besides, you don't get to have much fun in chemistry lab anymore.
Vinea
PS DMZ...look into some electronic microscopes. My wife found some (for work) that were reasonably priced and very cool. Dunno the brand but shouldn't be too hard to google. A couple hundred bucks I think...she was temped to buy one and I was like "our oldest kid is 2...buy one in a couple years for less and better rez".
Ugh....I already took the plunge on the microscope though, mono -- 1000x with a mechanical stage -- right around $500.
The difference of course is that Christian fundamentalists may be a little nutsy, but they're not going to kill anyone
worse: they will make you WISH you were dead...They want the entire world to be like a church service...they want to make the radio free of any fun content certin groups find EVERYTHING offencive...as an insight to the level of which they go, I was once told that if I listened to classic rock, or even oldies, let alone moddern non-christian music, I would be going to hell...
These people are the moddern thought police, they loath the thought that as they say, "THE CHILDREN" may stumble upon something that is not good...their solution is to take it away from EVERYONE! The V-chip and you know...the OFF BUTTON just arent good enough, they do not want ME to watch anythiong but the 700 club and TV preachers and if I have been good, maybe some Fox News Channel...
This is not true of most Christians, as I have said, I am a Christian, the problem, much like in Islam, is a very vocal minority.
Phoenix has a high-school dropout rate of about 50%. The other 50% are rubber-stamped through the system.
Home schooled kids are almost ALWAYS more literate and more knowledgable.
Think of it this way: Public school provides NO education. You learn NOTHING in public school.
Therefore, home schooled kids, even if they think that God created rifles to kill homosexuals, are probably still more educated than most.
I knew a girl in my history class in high school who thought that the salem witch trials occured in the 1960's... She passed with a C.
In another history class, the teacher gave us the answers to the state-required exam (that was an honors class, btw).
Math is about the only thing that is quantitatively graded, which is also why schools are constantly cutting back on the course requirements.
It's remarkable. I spent all but 1 semester of high school in honors math classes. After that semester, going back into honors was absolutely impossible. Normal math taught me about half of what I needed to know and I was a 98% student in that class, but in honors I barely made it out with a C (and I think it's because I told the teacher all I wanted was to graduate).
And what of those social skills? Everyone always talks about it.
What'd I learn in high school? I learned that I don't speak spanish so I can't even talk to half of my classmates, the international bachaloriate program is a scam to keep white kids away from the 'riff raff', and that cocaine and MDMA are almost currency in some circles.
Oh, and BTW: I went to the 'preppy' school
From what I can tell, homeschooled kids (and I've known plenty) without fail are better educated. Socially, it's probably best that they stay away from what's happening in public schools.
Public schools treat you like cattle--as long as you stay within the fence until you're told to leave, you'll do fine. Just showing up to class ensures a diploma--which is basically a reflection on what they want in the work place.
No creativity, no recognition of brilliance.. There's even a culture of hatred towards students with better grades. It teaches you to conform. You have to be outwardly violent and disruptive just to get a reprimand. The only attention you get is if you're a delinquent or mentally disabled (clinically).
Oddly enough, those relgious hard-liners being pumped out of some home-schooled situations will probably have the ambition and the point of view to become tomorrows leaders, in spite of the fact that they think evolution is a joke and women belong barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
The fact is, public school is debilitating; probably moreso than homeschooling.
I'm agnostic, but I sure as hell don't fear christians. All you people who are fearful of pentacostals need to realize that there are worse things than charter schools EXISTING. At least religious people have a sense of individuality. Christanity says that you yourself are important and a higher power is watching, so if you're not going to do something for yourself, you should do it for God or Jesus or whatever. Public schools make you think you're another number, nobody gives a crap.
I've gone to public schools in Phoenix all my life.
Phoenix has a high-school dropout rate of about 50%. The other 50% are rubber-stamped through the system.
Home schooled kids are almost ALWAYS more literate and more knowledgable.
Think of it this way: Public school provides NO education. You learn NOTHING in public school.
Therefore, home schooled kids, even if they think that God created rifles to kill homosexuals, are probably still more educated than most.
I knew a girl in my history class in high school who thought that the salem witch trials occured in the 1960's... She passed with a C.
In another history class, the teacher gave us the answers to the state-required exam (that was an honors class, btw).
Math is about the only thing that is quantitatively graded, which is also why schools are constantly cutting back on the course requirements.
It's remarkable. I spent all but 1 semester of high school in honors math classes. After that semester, going back into honors was absolutely impossible. Normal math taught me about half of what I needed to know and I was a 98% student in that class, but in honors I barely made it out with a C (and I think it's because I told the teacher all I wanted was to graduate).
And what of those social skills? Everyone always talks about it.
What'd I learn in high school? I learned that I don't speak spanish so I can't even talk to half of my classmates, the international bachaloriate program is a scam to keep white kids away from the 'riff raff', and that cocaine and MDMA are almost currency in some circles.
Oh, and BTW: I went to the 'preppy' school
From what I can tell, homeschooled kids (and I've known plenty) without fail are better educated. Socially, it's probably best that they stay away from what's happening in public schools.
Public schools treat you like cattle--as long as you stay within the fence until you're told to leave, you'll do fine. Just showing up to class ensures a diploma--which is basically a reflection on what they want in the work place.
No creativity, no recognition of brilliance.. There's even a culture of hatred towards students with better grades. It teaches you to conform.
Oddly enough, those relgious hard-liners being pumped out of some home-schooled situations will probably have the ambition and the point of view to become tomorrows leaders, in spite of the fact that they think evolution is a joke and women belong barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
The fact is, public school is debilitating; probably moreso than homeschooling.
Interesting perspective. How old are you? When did you graduate from high school?
Interesting perspective. How old are you? When did you graduate from high school?
23, I graduated in '01
Strangely enough when I think of home schooling, religion never came up. I have many friends with special needs children, my son is one. Many school systems do not provide the learning enviroment that is required to let these kids succeed. Also some kids can be down right nasty to the special needs students. Those are the reasons some of people home school.
Agreed.. heck, I was told in second grade that I was not ever going to be able to learn to read and would likely never graduate High School...my parents promptly pulled me out and placed me in a private school for the ballance of that year then home schooled me through the 8th grade...here I sit with a High school and college degree...and for the record, I read your post all by my self, so the Indiana education system can stick that in their pipes and smoke it.
Turns out when I was given instructors who would give me a little personal help, I picked it all right up and caught up with my peers in no time.
My mother was the special needs administrator for public school district and because she demanded that the county follow not only the letter but the spirit of the law she was demoted and pushed away. She eventually retired to become an itinerant teacher, but the ground she lost as an admin is biting her in the ass now as they try to force her to change her IEPs because the COUNTY cannot provide the services it is OBLIGED to provide. I suspect they will just stop renewing her contract.
Point is, if parents roll over, the administration have no barrier to effect negative changes.
Mmm...I've read bad things about Waldorf schools. We're looking into Montessori and I'd rather send my kids to public school than a Waldord school.
Whatever you heard can't be universal, because Waldorf schools are the best. I sent my middle daughter to a Montessori school for a few months and it was a disaster, much worse than public schools.
I have even heard other parents say that sending your kids to non-Waldorf schools is a form child abuse, but I think that is a little far over the line.
One of the biggest differences between Montessori and Waldorf is that Waldorf focuses on group activity and crafts in the early grades, where Montessori focuses on individual isolated activities. I think that Montessori is certainly unhealthy for young children, as this is when group dynamics and teamwork start to form.
The only people that I have heard have a problem with Waldorf school fall into four groups
1. People who think it is too socialist (poor people pay less tuition usually, unless the school is full - "we are the only ones who pay full price!", etc).
2. People who are mad because they used to get tuition assistance, and get dropped off the list because the school fills up.
3. People who don't like a particular teacher.
4. People who want their kids to read early. Waldorf schools think that early reading is unhealthy, and I agree - all my kids learned to read in 4th or 5th grade (but caught up with reading quickly). I don't think that early reading (before 3rd grade) is any help at all, and it takes away from the things that you should be learning.
Whatever you heard can't be universal, because Waldorf schools are the best.
It's funny that you say "can't be universal", then make a mind-bogglingly "universal" statement right after. Waldorf is an interesting concept for schooling, but nothing more. It is extremely unsuitable for general purposes. Much like homeschooling, you run risk of alienating your children from the real world and real society out there, making your children focus on the things you believe are important, rather than those the majority deems important.
I have to strongy disagree that waldorf schools are "the best." I'm a fan of them when used in moderation. They are very good at helping kids develop certain skills, but very poor at helping them think critically about their views toward the arts, creativity and spirituality and the problems with focusing too much on those areas.
If you are saying that Waldorf schools create artists rather than art critics, then I agree and approve. I am an atheist, so I have no opinion about spirituality - the Wadorf school is mild enough with it so that it does not bother me.
It's funny that you say "can't be universal", then make a mind-bogglingly "universal" statement right after. Waldorf is an interesting concept for schooling, but nothing more. It is extremely unsuitable for general purposes. Much like homeschooling, you run risk of alienating your children from the real world and real society out there, making your children focus on the things you believe are important, rather than those the majority deems important.
What I mean when I say that Waldorf schools are "universally good" is that the concept is good - his problem will probably be specific to a particular school (and probably to a particular teacher). Vinea - what were the bad things that you heard?
I look at the graduates of Waldorf schools, and they seem better adjusted, better educated, and more sane than the graduates (on average) from any other type of school.
23, I graduated in '01
I graduated in '96, and while I don't disagree with some of the things that you say (especially the Spanish kids), I never encountered the Cocaine or MDMA that you experienced, and I have a tough time believing that there is a 50% drop-out rate.
However, for the record, there are some things I can confirm:
A) Spanish speaking kids had NO DESIRE TO LEARN ENGLISH. Why should they? Every sign, every letter, every menu was in both English and Spanish. Now, the Korean and two African kids, they had to learn English, and they did. There is way too much coddling of the Hispanic American. If they are going to be American, then they need to learn the language of the land: English. Otherwise this country (particularly Arizona) while continue to be divided amongst ethnic lines.
C) The "challenge" of schoolwork is an absolute sham. There was no desire to really try to stretch the mind of myself or the students around me. Just give us the minimum to pass the tests. This was before the whole Testing craze took place.
Schools need to be a place of instruction, supervision, and academic excellence. Not a place for kids to gather, and just hang out.
If you are saying that Waldorf schools create artists rather than art critics, then I agree and approve. I am an atheist, so I have no opinion about spirituality - the Wadorf school is mild enough with it so that it does not bother me.
But art and spiritual pursuits are fields few people can make a career out of. What I'm talking about isn't "artist" vs "art critic," it's "career in the arts/humanities" vs "career in anything else." While I have a couple waldorf friends who have become very successful in the arts, more than a few have not and yet are still pushing on unsuccessfully. The reason I (and a few others I know) believe this is so common is because when a waldorf student enters the real world they recognize that the development of their creativity is the most distinguishing feature, so they are far more likely than a non-waldorf educated student to fall back on it...even if they don't have what it takes to actually make a living at it. The encouragement of an idealist outlook also can foster unrealistic expectations and overconfidence.
An exclusively waldorf-educated student is also, more often than not, at a disadvantage when it comes to analytical fields, not only because of lack of emphasis on them but also because of the glamorization of the arts. For instance, a waldorf kid is significantly more likely to be accepted to a liberal arts school like oberlin or hampshire than MIT (1995-2004 - oberlin: 82, Hampshire: 55, MIT: 2. pdf).
I've seen more than enough problems with how waldorf alums transition to adulthood to know that use of the school has to be handled with care. I strongly share the values its founded on and agree with the philosophy behind it (including anthroposophy), but I have a difficult time endorsing students being exclusively educated within it.
Now, I'm in no way saying that waldorf grads can't be successful in other fields. Quite the contrary. I strongly believe in the value of a waldorf education, but I recognize that there are weaknesses. It's all a trade-off. After all, I believe that a waldorf alum can potentially have a major advantage over non-waldorf students when it comes to the arts and humanities.
An exclusively waldorf-educated student is also, more often than not, at a disadvantage when it comes to analytical fields, not only because of lack of emphasis on them but also because of the glamorization of the arts. For instance, a waldorf kid is significantly more likely to be accepted to a liberal arts school like oberlin or hampshire than MIT (1995-2004 - oberlin: 82, Hampshire: 55, MIT: 2. pdf).
In your study 2 out of 2776 students went to MIT (0.072%), which is almost four times higher than the national average for the 10 year study (10,000 enrolled/45 million graduates = (0.022%).
I realize that a lot of students will go to liberal arts schools, but if you go look at a Waldorf high school science class, you will realize that it is taught the way it should be (i.e. not like public schools). The students do the experiments and formulate their own theories before being taught the "real theory" behind the experiment - there is no faking experiment data to get the right result like we did in public school.
I think that a lot of the artistic bias for post-secondary work comes from the reputation of the school - people with artistic kids send them there in the first place. I don't agree that it is a result of the teaching philosophy.