I agree with the poster who said that Dell prices are very hard to figure out, because they change them in accordance with the phase of the moon, the tide on Cape Cod and the price of eggs in China. I tried a few experiments on their website today, which would at least catch one day's snapshot... I tried to match each MBP with the closest possible Dell, and here they are. I didn't work with "white-box" or homebuilt systems, becaue they are a much smaller force in the notebook market than in desktops. These are, of course, today's Dell deals, not yesterday's or tomorrow's.
I used an Inspiron E1505 with a 2.16 gHz Core 2 Duo to match the $1999 MacBook Pro pretty closely, and it's $1990.
The specs are very close (although the Inspiron is thicker and heavier, plus it has an ATI Radeon X1400 HyperMemory graphics card instead of the X1600).
This has 1 GB RAM, same as the MacBook Pro at the same price point, but note the slower, HyperMemory GPU - HyperMemory is a fancy way of saying "has some onboard VRAM, but steals system RAM" - it has 128 onboard, but I can't figure out if it steals 128 MB or 256 MB. It'll be less usable than the MBP with 1 GB, because of the stolen RAM (and XP is less efficient with RAM than Tiger)
The Dell has a WSXGA+ display (1680x1050 - one step up from the Mac - Dell only offers that or a low-resolution 1280x800 display (take off $100 for low-res)
Of course, the unique ports on the MBP are missing - the two FireWires (one of them an 800) replaced by two more USB ports, and the Dual Link DVI replaced by VGA. The DVI is clearly an improvement (an adapter cable turns it into VGA when needed, but just try running a 30 inch flat panel off a VGA port), and I'd rather have the FireWire than two extra USB ports (but others may disagree)
No Gigabit Ethernet, but it has 10/100 plus a modem. I'd call that a wash - both gigabit and analog dialup are somewhat rare, and for every person who wants one, someone else wants the other.
Hard drives are identical (same drive as best as I can tell)
Optical is identical
Software was tricky - I ended up putting in about $250 worth of software to try and match iLife, etc... The first part of the software was $99 for a three year antivirus subscription (a very good deal by Windows AV standards). I selected the $89 Corel photo/video and $79 premium CD/DVD burning options to try and compensate for iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD. I also added $30 worth of antispyware software. I also replaced XP Home with XP Pro as a fairer comparison to Tiger)
I'd still rather have iLife, but the Dell does come with a free upgrade to Vista Business (Steve, how about a Leopard coupon in the box, just to trounce the competition on this point as well).
Both of these have 1 year warrantees
No 15 inch Inspiron reaches 2.33 gHz, so here's a Latitude D820 from Dell Small Business configured to match the $2499 MBP. It's $2851, but it comes with a 3 year warranty, so throw in AppleCare and it's priced very close to the Mac. It's possible to get to $2570 by not starting with one of Dell's standard configurations, but quite a bit of software is missing, and the warranty is 3 years, but an "economy plan" that isn't close to AppleCare.
The Core 2 Duo at 2.33 gHz is the same
The 120 GB hard drive is the same
The 2.0 GB of RAM is the same
The Dell has an 8x DVD burner, which seems to be dual layer, but that's not clear. If it is, it's a modest upgrade from the Mac's 6x - if not, it's a modest downgrade.
The graphics card is an Nvidia Quadro NVS120M TurboCache. I really can't tell how this low-end Quadro card compares to the Radeon in the Mac. It claims to be a 512 MB card, but TurboCache means that at least half of that is stolen system RAM!
The wireless is identical to Apple's specs at 802.11g (ignoring the possibility that the Apple wireless is really pre-N disabled by drivers).
The Ethernet is the same, and the Dell includes a modem.
Dell includes a connector for a docking station (I didn't include a docking station)
There's the same port discrepancy in favor of the Mac (Dual Link DVI instead of VGA and 2 USB plus FireWire 400 and 800 instead of 4 USB)
Again, I played with software to try and approximate what Apple gives us. There was no option (short of Photoshop CS2 for $600) to approximate iPhoto, so I didn't include anything at all for that. I included the premium software for the burner, to try for iMovie, iDVD, etc... There was no 3 year antivirus subscription available, so I settled for 15 months of Norton Internet Security plus Norton SystemWorks plus 15 months of antispyware.
The 17 inch MacBook Pro is going up against the mighty Dell XPS M1710, and the Dell is substantially more expensive at $3975. The Mac will need both AppleCare and ProCare to compete with Dell's 3 year warranty and priority XPS service, though, bringing the cost of the Mac to $3247.
The processor, RAM, hard drive and optical drive are identical between the two.
The graphics subsystem on the Dell is far more powerful, with the "low-end" option being a GeForce 7900 GS that outclasses Apple's Radeon x1600. Dell also uses a higher resolution (1920x1200) display. Amazingly, Dell provides only a single-link DVI output, precluding use of that monster graphics card to drive a 30" display.
Networking is very similar, with 802.11b/g and gigabit Ethernet. Dell adds 802.11a and a modem to the mix, while Apple may have slipped draft 802.11n into the MacBook Pro. This is a slight win for Apple if the 802.11n pans out, for Dell if it doesn't.
Dell and Apple have taken different approaches to port compliments. Dell has included everything but the kitchen sink (if I could only find the 3/4 inch garden hose input on the XPS M1710, I'd say they probably included the kitchen sink as well)... There are no less than 6 USB ports, FireWire 400 (4 pin unpowered), a card reader, both VGA and (single-link) DVI, S-Video and even component video! Apple certainly uses fewer ports, but they are well chosen and useful - 3 USB ports, FireWire 400 and 800 and dual-link DVI (which comes with a VGA adapter, and a S-Video adapter is only $19). I actually prefer Apple's ports (of course I own both a 30" monitor and a FW800 hard disk). Many creative pros who buy these machines will have those peripherals, though. USB hubs are cheap, so the Dell's real advantage is component video (output only).
The Dell is clearly the more powerful machine of these two, but you pay for its graphics power with a 9 lb weight, short battery life and high price tag. Especially given the lack of a dual-link DVI port to fully utilize the graphics card on the Dell, I prefer the more balanced Mac.
Could the dual-link DVI port be part of the reaon for Apple's devotion to the X1600? At least for Dell, Nvidia doesn't support dual-link on portables, even at the extreme high end. How many creative pros using MacBook Pros have 30" monitors? Probably enough that Apple doesn't want to alienate them by turning their valuable monitors into expensive paperweights or forcing them to buy Mac Pros.
I agree with the poster who said that Dell prices are very hard to figure out, because they change them in accordance with the phase of the moon, the tide on Cape Cod and the price of eggs in China. I tried a few experiments on their website today, which would at least catch one day's snapshot... I tried to match each MBP with the closest possible Dell, and here they are. I didn't work with "white-box" or homebuilt systems, becaue they are a much smaller force in the notebook market than in desktops. These are, of course, today's Dell deals, not yesterday's or tomorrow's.
I used an Inspiron E1505 with a 2.16 gHz Core 2 Duo to match the $1999 MacBook Pro pretty closely, and it's $1990.
The specs are very close (although the Inspiron is thicker and heavier, plus it has an ATI Radeon X1400 HyperMemory graphics card instead of the X1600).
This has 1 GB RAM, same as the MacBook Pro at the same price point, but note the slower, HyperMemory GPU - HyperMemory is a fancy way of saying "has some onboard VRAM, but steals system RAM" - it has 128 onboard, but I can't figure out if it steals 128 MB or 256 MB. It'll be less usable than the MBP with 1 GB, because of the stolen RAM (and XP is less efficient with RAM than Tiger)
The Dell has a WSXGA+ display (1680x1050 - one step up from the Mac - Dell only offers that or a low-resolution 1280x800 display (take off $100 for low-res)
Of course, the unique ports on the MBP are missing - the two FireWires (one of them an 800) replaced by two more USB ports, and the Dual Link DVI replaced by VGA. The DVI is clearly an improvement (an adapter cable turns it into VGA when needed, but just try running a 30 inch flat panel off a VGA port), and I'd rather have the FireWire than two extra USB ports (but others may disagree)
No Gigabit Ethernet, but it has 10/100 plus a modem. I'd call that a wash - both gigabit and analog dialup are somewhat rare, and for every person who wants one, someone else wants the other.
Hard drives are identical (same drive as best as I can tell)
Optical is identical
Software was tricky - I ended up putting in about $250 worth of software to try and match iLife, etc... The first part of the software was $99 for a three year antivirus subscription (a very good deal by Windows AV standards). I selected the $89 Corel photo/video and $79 premium CD/DVD burning options to try and compensate for iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD. I also added $30 worth of antispyware software. I also replaced XP Home with XP Pro as a fairer comparison to Tiger)
I'd still rather have iLife, but the Dell does come with a free upgrade to Vista Business (Steve, how about a Leopard coupon in the box, just to trounce the competition on this point as well).
Both of these have 1 year warrantees
No 15 inch Inspiron reaches 2.33 gHz, so here's a Latitude D820 from Dell Small Business configured to match the $2499 MBP. It's $2851, but it comes with a 3 year warranty, so throw in AppleCare and it's priced very close to the Mac. It's possible to get to $2570 by not starting with one of Dell's standard configurations, but quite a bit of software is missing, and the warranty is 3 years, but an "economy plan" that isn't close to AppleCare.
The Core 2 Duo at 2.33 gHz is the same
The 120 GB hard drive is the same
The 2.0 GB of RAM is the same
The Dell has an 8x DVD burner, which seems to be dual layer, but that's not clear. If it is, it's a modest upgrade from the Mac's 6x - if not, it's a modest downgrade.
The graphics card is an Nvidia Quadro NVS120M TurboCache. I really can't tell how this low-end Quadro card compares to the Radeon in the Mac. It claims to be a 512 MB card, but TurboCache means that at least half of that is stolen system RAM!
The wireless is identical to Apple's specs at 802.11g (ignoring the possibility that the Apple wireless is really pre-N disabled by drivers).
The Ethernet is the same, and the Dell includes a modem.
Dell includes a connector for a docking station (I didn't include a docking station)
There's the same port discrepancy in favor of the Mac (Dual Link DVI instead of VGA and 2 USB plus FireWire 400 and 800 instead of 4 USB)
Again, I played with software to try and approximate what Apple gives us. There was no option (short of Photoshop CS2 for $600) to approximate iPhoto, so I didn't include anything at all for that. I included the premium software for the burner, to try for iMovie, iDVD, etc... There was no 3 year antivirus subscription available, so I settled for 15 months of Norton Internet Security plus Norton SystemWorks plus 15 months of antispyware.
The 17 inch MacBook Pro is going up against the mighty Dell XPS M1710, and the Dell is substantially more expensive at $3975. The Mac will need both AppleCare and ProCare to compete with Dell's 3 year warranty and priority XPS service, though, bringing the cost of the Mac to $3247.
The processor, RAM, hard drive and optical drive are identical between the two.
The graphics subsystem on the Dell is far more powerful, with the "low-end" option being a GeForce 7900 GS that outclasses Apple's Radeon x1600. Dell also uses a higher resolution (1920x1200) display. Amazingly, Dell provides only a single-link DVI output, precluding use of that monster graphics card to drive a 30" display.
Networking is very similar, with 802.11b/g and gigabit Ethernet. Dell adds 802.11a and a modem to the mix, while Apple may have slipped draft 802.11n into the MacBook Pro. This is a slight win for Apple if the 802.11n pans out, for Dell if it doesn't.
Dell and Apple have taken different approaches to port compliments. Dell has included everything but the kitchen sink (if I could only find the 3/4 inch garden hose input on the XPS M1710, I'd say they probably included the kitchen sink as well)... There are no less than 6 USB ports, FireWire 400 (4 pin unpowered), a card reader, both VGA and (single-link) DVI, S-Video and even component video! Apple certainly uses fewer ports, but they are well chosen and useful - 3 USB ports, FireWire 400 and 800 and dual-link DVI (which comes with a VGA adapter, and a S-Video adapter is only $19). I actually prefer Apple's ports (of course I own both a 30" monitor and a FW800 hard disk). Many creative pros who buy these machines will have those peripherals, though. USB hubs are cheap, so the Dell's real advantage is component video (output only).
The Dell is clearly the more powerful machine of these two, but you pay for its graphics power with a 9 lb weight, short battery life and high price tag. Especially given the lack of a dual-link DVI port to fully utilize the graphics card on the Dell, I prefer the more balanced Mac.
Could the dual-link DVI port be part of the reaon for Apple's devotion to the X1600? At least for Dell, Nvidia doesn't support dual-link on portables, even at the extreme high end. How many creative pros using MacBook Pros have 30" monitors? Probably enough that Apple doesn't want to alienate them by turning their valuable monitors into expensive paperweights or forcing them to buy Mac Pros.
-Dan
That was a lot of work!
PC people usually don't assign any value to Apple's software. So it makes it difficult to come up with an equivalent package. What they do include, if anything, is a patchwork of trial software, or crippled versions that have to be upgraded.
Rarely does any of that stuff work well together, and sometimes doesn't work at all.
An interesting story from Macfixit. About the 3GB memory limit. That says Apple is being truthful that the chipset can only address 3GB of RAM and that everyone else is being deceptive and misleading customers to buy expensive 4GB that cannot be fully addressed.
A number of items that must be stored in physical RAM space, and when RAM reaches 4 GB, there is some overlap. In other words, in a 3 GB RAM configuration, there is no overlap with the memory ranges required for certain system functions. Between 3 GB and 4 GB, however, system memory attempts to occupy space that is already assigned to these functions. The net result is that at least 3 GB of RAM should be fully accessible, while when 4 GB of RAM installed, ~700 MB of of the RAM is overlapping critical system functions, making it non-addressable by the system.
This is not a Mac-specific issue, and it calls into question the claims some other manufacturers are making about 945PM chipset-based models being able to accept 4 GB of RAM. For example, HP's Compaq NC8430 makes use of the Intel 945PM chipset, and claims a maximum of 4 GB RAM with no caveats listed.
UPDATE: Some readers noted that HP does provide a technical specifications page for the NC8430 stating that "all memory may not be available" above 3 GB. Still, the online HP store allows users to purchase 4 GB of RAM as a shipping option with no apparent indication of the limitation.
[i]A number of items that must be stored in physical RAM space, and when RAM reaches 4 GB, there is some overlap. In other words, in a 3 GB RAM configuration, there is no overlap with the memory ranges required for certain system functions. Between 3 GB and 4 GB, however, system memory attempts to occupy space that is already assigned to these functions. The net result is that at least 3 GB of RAM should be fully accessible, while when 4 GB of RAM installed, ~700 MB of of the RAM is overlapping critical system functions, making it non-addressable by the system. ]
When I had stumbled across a workstation with 4GB, it had 500MB taken out, not 700. But this should not be a problem if you use the notebook with a 64 bit OS. I don't know if XP x64 is offered with any of those notebooks yet or not.
Ahh, I am not happy to see this kludge in the address space assignment. Reminds me of the ancient memory banks/segments/ expanded memory / extended memory and all that other junk.
I hope this isn't inherent in Intel's implementation of 64-bit pointers addressing (a kludge to allow 32-bit pointers at the same time as 64-bit), and is only an eccentricity of this particular chipset.
Are you guys saying that the CPU is 64-bit but the chipset isn't? That seems strange for Apple to do. I just reviewed the WWDC sessions and Xcode cheerfully will produce 4 separate binaries in one bundle, so there is indeed a 64-bit Intel binary.
Will a 64-bit OS fix that issue or is it just due to the chipset? I'm still going to buy a MBP C2D (mainly because it is going to use 2 GB instead of 3 GB, which is great for right now and is more than my iMac G5 20" can handle anyways) but I was just wondering if Leopard might allow for us to start using that 4 GB's instead of 3 GB. That would just be nice and that's the way it seems according to what was stated earlier.
Are you guys saying that the CPU is 64-bit but the chipset isn't? That seems strange for Apple to do. I just reviewed the WWDC sessions and Xcode cheerfully will produce 4 separate binaries in one bundle, so there is indeed a 64-bit Intel binary.
That would be odd, wouldn't it? But it would be Intel not Apple. Why would Apple use an inappropriate chipset if Intel had the appropriate one?
Me to - at least I have a tracking number, but Fedex has not yet picked up the package, and Apple has not yet billed my credit card. Mine is a base model with a 160gb hard drive upgrade.
btw, my MBP is glossy screen, Idk if this is the first glossy to ship but YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
If they give you a shipping notice on a Saturday or Sunday, what that really means is that it's packed and ready to go. FedEx won't even pick it up until the next business day.
That would be odd, wouldn't it? But it would be Intel not Apple. Why would Apple use an inappropriate chipset if Intel had the appropriate one?
I dunno. It seems like a kludge to me - from what I can piece together, the Intel addressing wants to use the top 1 GB of the first 4 GB for hardware I/O triggers and such. Why they need a whole GB puzzles me. And they only use the virtual addresses - i.e. if you only have 3GB of real memory it doesn't use any of it - it just reserves the 3-4 GB virtual space for itself for some reason.
As far as I can tell, the PPC does not do that. I have 3.5 GB in my G5 and Apple never said anything about not using the upper GB. In fact, in Tiger you can write a Unix app that cheerfully uses 64-bit pointers as long as you don't call into Cocoa or Carbon or AppKit.
Me to - at least I have a tracking number, but Fedex has not yet picked up the package, and Apple has not yet billed my credit card. Mine is a base model with a 160gb hard drive upgrade.
Mine has been received by FedEx, too! I ordered a 2.33GHz, with the 160 gig HD.
If they give you a shipping notice on a Saturday or Sunday, what that really means is that it's packed and ready to go. FedEx won't even pick it up until the next business day.
actually, i just checked, and it was picked up already in shanghai and is on its way as of 1:38am, which I assume refers to shanghai time, :-) so whenever it says shipped on sunday, its probably on its way cause shanghai is already a day ahead.
I dunno. It seems like a kludge to me - from what I can piece together, the Intel addressing wants to use the top 1 GB of the first 4 GB for hardware I/O triggers and such. Why they need a whole GB puzzles me. And they only use the virtual addresses - i.e. if you only have 3GB of real memory it doesn't use any of it - it just reserves the 3-4 GB virtual space for itself for some reason.
As far as I can tell, the PPC does not do that. I have 3.5 GB in my G5 and Apple never said anything about not using the upper GB. In fact, in Tiger you can write a Unix app that cheerfully uses 64-bit pointers as long as you don't call into Cocoa or Carbon or AppKit.
It's just a mobile chipset problem though, as far as I know.
While Apple also uses them for desktops. that isn't their purpose. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Intel is coming out witrh a desktop chipset for these moblie chips since they seem to be getting popular for small, power saving desktop models. That might solve the problem, at least for some machines.
But, for portable use, the need for more than 3GB hasn't been as much of an issue. One reason is the price of the SODIMMS. As the price drops there will be more demand. Perhaps we will see a change then. I doubt this limit is set in stone.
actually, i just checked, and it was picked up already in shanghai and is on its way as of 1:38am, which I assume refers to shanghai time, :-) so whenever it says shipped on sunday, its probably on its way cause shanghai is already a day ahead.
So you were sorta right
in the air for 4 hours 8)
Whoa, that's weird. I got the same exact shipment time.... I hope it's coming across the pacific.
Comments
I used an Inspiron E1505 with a 2.16 gHz Core 2 Duo to match the $1999 MacBook Pro pretty closely, and it's $1990.
The specs are very close (although the Inspiron is thicker and heavier, plus it has an ATI Radeon X1400 HyperMemory graphics card instead of the X1600).
This has 1 GB RAM, same as the MacBook Pro at the same price point, but note the slower, HyperMemory GPU - HyperMemory is a fancy way of saying "has some onboard VRAM, but steals system RAM" - it has 128 onboard, but I can't figure out if it steals 128 MB or 256 MB. It'll be less usable than the MBP with 1 GB, because of the stolen RAM (and XP is less efficient with RAM than Tiger)
The Dell has a WSXGA+ display (1680x1050 - one step up from the Mac - Dell only offers that or a low-resolution 1280x800 display (take off $100 for low-res)
Of course, the unique ports on the MBP are missing - the two FireWires (one of them an 800) replaced by two more USB ports, and the Dual Link DVI replaced by VGA. The DVI is clearly an improvement (an adapter cable turns it into VGA when needed, but just try running a 30 inch flat panel off a VGA port), and I'd rather have the FireWire than two extra USB ports (but others may disagree)
No Gigabit Ethernet, but it has 10/100 plus a modem. I'd call that a wash - both gigabit and analog dialup are somewhat rare, and for every person who wants one, someone else wants the other.
Hard drives are identical (same drive as best as I can tell)
Optical is identical
Software was tricky - I ended up putting in about $250 worth of software to try and match iLife, etc... The first part of the software was $99 for a three year antivirus subscription (a very good deal by Windows AV standards). I selected the $89 Corel photo/video and $79 premium CD/DVD burning options to try and compensate for iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD. I also added $30 worth of antispyware software. I also replaced XP Home with XP Pro as a fairer comparison to Tiger)
I'd still rather have iLife, but the Dell does come with a free upgrade to Vista Business (Steve, how about a Leopard coupon in the box, just to trounce the competition on this point as well).
Both of these have 1 year warrantees
No 15 inch Inspiron reaches 2.33 gHz, so here's a Latitude D820 from Dell Small Business configured to match the $2499 MBP. It's $2851, but it comes with a 3 year warranty, so throw in AppleCare and it's priced very close to the Mac. It's possible to get to $2570 by not starting with one of Dell's standard configurations, but quite a bit of software is missing, and the warranty is 3 years, but an "economy plan" that isn't close to AppleCare.
The Core 2 Duo at 2.33 gHz is the same
The 120 GB hard drive is the same
The 2.0 GB of RAM is the same
The Dell has an 8x DVD burner, which seems to be dual layer, but that's not clear. If it is, it's a modest upgrade from the Mac's 6x - if not, it's a modest downgrade.
The graphics card is an Nvidia Quadro NVS120M TurboCache. I really can't tell how this low-end Quadro card compares to the Radeon in the Mac. It claims to be a 512 MB card, but TurboCache means that at least half of that is stolen system RAM!
The wireless is identical to Apple's specs at 802.11g (ignoring the possibility that the Apple wireless is really pre-N disabled by drivers).
The Ethernet is the same, and the Dell includes a modem.
Dell includes a connector for a docking station (I didn't include a docking station)
There's the same port discrepancy in favor of the Mac (Dual Link DVI instead of VGA and 2 USB plus FireWire 400 and 800 instead of 4 USB)
Again, I played with software to try and approximate what Apple gives us. There was no option (short of Photoshop CS2 for $600) to approximate iPhoto, so I didn't include anything at all for that. I included the premium software for the burner, to try for iMovie, iDVD, etc... There was no 3 year antivirus subscription available, so I settled for 15 months of Norton Internet Security plus Norton SystemWorks plus 15 months of antispyware.
The 17 inch MacBook Pro is going up against the mighty Dell XPS M1710, and the Dell is substantially more expensive at $3975. The Mac will need both AppleCare and ProCare to compete with Dell's 3 year warranty and priority XPS service, though, bringing the cost of the Mac to $3247.
The processor, RAM, hard drive and optical drive are identical between the two.
The graphics subsystem on the Dell is far more powerful, with the "low-end" option being a GeForce 7900 GS that outclasses Apple's Radeon x1600. Dell also uses a higher resolution (1920x1200) display. Amazingly, Dell provides only a single-link DVI output, precluding use of that monster graphics card to drive a 30" display.
Networking is very similar, with 802.11b/g and gigabit Ethernet. Dell adds 802.11a and a modem to the mix, while Apple may have slipped draft 802.11n into the MacBook Pro. This is a slight win for Apple if the 802.11n pans out, for Dell if it doesn't.
Dell and Apple have taken different approaches to port compliments. Dell has included everything but the kitchen sink (if I could only find the 3/4 inch garden hose input on the XPS M1710, I'd say they probably included the kitchen sink as well)... There are no less than 6 USB ports, FireWire 400 (4 pin unpowered), a card reader, both VGA and (single-link) DVI, S-Video and even component video! Apple certainly uses fewer ports, but they are well chosen and useful - 3 USB ports, FireWire 400 and 800 and dual-link DVI (which comes with a VGA adapter, and a S-Video adapter is only $19). I actually prefer Apple's ports (of course I own both a 30" monitor and a FW800 hard disk). Many creative pros who buy these machines will have those peripherals, though. USB hubs are cheap, so the Dell's real advantage is component video (output only).
The Dell is clearly the more powerful machine of these two, but you pay for its graphics power with a 9 lb weight, short battery life and high price tag. Especially given the lack of a dual-link DVI port to fully utilize the graphics card on the Dell, I prefer the more balanced Mac.
Could the dual-link DVI port be part of the reaon for Apple's devotion to the X1600? At least for Dell, Nvidia doesn't support dual-link on portables, even at the extreme high end. How many creative pros using MacBook Pros have 30" monitors? Probably enough that Apple doesn't want to alienate them by turning their valuable monitors into expensive paperweights or forcing them to buy Mac Pros.
-Dan
I agree with the poster who said that Dell prices are very hard to figure out, because they change them in accordance with the phase of the moon, the tide on Cape Cod and the price of eggs in China. I tried a few experiments on their website today, which would at least catch one day's snapshot... I tried to match each MBP with the closest possible Dell, and here they are. I didn't work with "white-box" or homebuilt systems, becaue they are a much smaller force in the notebook market than in desktops. These are, of course, today's Dell deals, not yesterday's or tomorrow's.
I used an Inspiron E1505 with a 2.16 gHz Core 2 Duo to match the $1999 MacBook Pro pretty closely, and it's $1990.
The specs are very close (although the Inspiron is thicker and heavier, plus it has an ATI Radeon X1400 HyperMemory graphics card instead of the X1600).
This has 1 GB RAM, same as the MacBook Pro at the same price point, but note the slower, HyperMemory GPU - HyperMemory is a fancy way of saying "has some onboard VRAM, but steals system RAM" - it has 128 onboard, but I can't figure out if it steals 128 MB or 256 MB. It'll be less usable than the MBP with 1 GB, because of the stolen RAM (and XP is less efficient with RAM than Tiger)
The Dell has a WSXGA+ display (1680x1050 - one step up from the Mac - Dell only offers that or a low-resolution 1280x800 display (take off $100 for low-res)
Of course, the unique ports on the MBP are missing - the two FireWires (one of them an 800) replaced by two more USB ports, and the Dual Link DVI replaced by VGA. The DVI is clearly an improvement (an adapter cable turns it into VGA when needed, but just try running a 30 inch flat panel off a VGA port), and I'd rather have the FireWire than two extra USB ports (but others may disagree)
No Gigabit Ethernet, but it has 10/100 plus a modem. I'd call that a wash - both gigabit and analog dialup are somewhat rare, and for every person who wants one, someone else wants the other.
Hard drives are identical (same drive as best as I can tell)
Optical is identical
Software was tricky - I ended up putting in about $250 worth of software to try and match iLife, etc... The first part of the software was $99 for a three year antivirus subscription (a very good deal by Windows AV standards). I selected the $89 Corel photo/video and $79 premium CD/DVD burning options to try and compensate for iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD. I also added $30 worth of antispyware software. I also replaced XP Home with XP Pro as a fairer comparison to Tiger)
I'd still rather have iLife, but the Dell does come with a free upgrade to Vista Business (Steve, how about a Leopard coupon in the box, just to trounce the competition on this point as well).
Both of these have 1 year warrantees
No 15 inch Inspiron reaches 2.33 gHz, so here's a Latitude D820 from Dell Small Business configured to match the $2499 MBP. It's $2851, but it comes with a 3 year warranty, so throw in AppleCare and it's priced very close to the Mac. It's possible to get to $2570 by not starting with one of Dell's standard configurations, but quite a bit of software is missing, and the warranty is 3 years, but an "economy plan" that isn't close to AppleCare.
The Core 2 Duo at 2.33 gHz is the same
The 120 GB hard drive is the same
The 2.0 GB of RAM is the same
The Dell has an 8x DVD burner, which seems to be dual layer, but that's not clear. If it is, it's a modest upgrade from the Mac's 6x - if not, it's a modest downgrade.
The graphics card is an Nvidia Quadro NVS120M TurboCache. I really can't tell how this low-end Quadro card compares to the Radeon in the Mac. It claims to be a 512 MB card, but TurboCache means that at least half of that is stolen system RAM!
The wireless is identical to Apple's specs at 802.11g (ignoring the possibility that the Apple wireless is really pre-N disabled by drivers).
The Ethernet is the same, and the Dell includes a modem.
Dell includes a connector for a docking station (I didn't include a docking station)
There's the same port discrepancy in favor of the Mac (Dual Link DVI instead of VGA and 2 USB plus FireWire 400 and 800 instead of 4 USB)
Again, I played with software to try and approximate what Apple gives us. There was no option (short of Photoshop CS2 for $600) to approximate iPhoto, so I didn't include anything at all for that. I included the premium software for the burner, to try for iMovie, iDVD, etc... There was no 3 year antivirus subscription available, so I settled for 15 months of Norton Internet Security plus Norton SystemWorks plus 15 months of antispyware.
The 17 inch MacBook Pro is going up against the mighty Dell XPS M1710, and the Dell is substantially more expensive at $3975. The Mac will need both AppleCare and ProCare to compete with Dell's 3 year warranty and priority XPS service, though, bringing the cost of the Mac to $3247.
The processor, RAM, hard drive and optical drive are identical between the two.
The graphics subsystem on the Dell is far more powerful, with the "low-end" option being a GeForce 7900 GS that outclasses Apple's Radeon x1600. Dell also uses a higher resolution (1920x1200) display. Amazingly, Dell provides only a single-link DVI output, precluding use of that monster graphics card to drive a 30" display.
Networking is very similar, with 802.11b/g and gigabit Ethernet. Dell adds 802.11a and a modem to the mix, while Apple may have slipped draft 802.11n into the MacBook Pro. This is a slight win for Apple if the 802.11n pans out, for Dell if it doesn't.
Dell and Apple have taken different approaches to port compliments. Dell has included everything but the kitchen sink (if I could only find the 3/4 inch garden hose input on the XPS M1710, I'd say they probably included the kitchen sink as well)... There are no less than 6 USB ports, FireWire 400 (4 pin unpowered), a card reader, both VGA and (single-link) DVI, S-Video and even component video! Apple certainly uses fewer ports, but they are well chosen and useful - 3 USB ports, FireWire 400 and 800 and dual-link DVI (which comes with a VGA adapter, and a S-Video adapter is only $19). I actually prefer Apple's ports (of course I own both a 30" monitor and a FW800 hard disk). Many creative pros who buy these machines will have those peripherals, though. USB hubs are cheap, so the Dell's real advantage is component video (output only).
The Dell is clearly the more powerful machine of these two, but you pay for its graphics power with a 9 lb weight, short battery life and high price tag. Especially given the lack of a dual-link DVI port to fully utilize the graphics card on the Dell, I prefer the more balanced Mac.
Could the dual-link DVI port be part of the reaon for Apple's devotion to the X1600? At least for Dell, Nvidia doesn't support dual-link on portables, even at the extreme high end. How many creative pros using MacBook Pros have 30" monitors? Probably enough that Apple doesn't want to alienate them by turning their valuable monitors into expensive paperweights or forcing them to buy Mac Pros.
-Dan
That was a lot of work!
PC people usually don't assign any value to Apple's software. So it makes it difficult to come up with an equivalent package. What they do include, if anything, is a patchwork of trial software, or crippled versions that have to be upgraded.
Rarely does any of that stuff work well together, and sometimes doesn't work at all.
A number of items that must be stored in physical RAM space, and when RAM reaches 4 GB, there is some overlap. In other words, in a 3 GB RAM configuration, there is no overlap with the memory ranges required for certain system functions. Between 3 GB and 4 GB, however, system memory attempts to occupy space that is already assigned to these functions. The net result is that at least 3 GB of RAM should be fully accessible, while when 4 GB of RAM installed, ~700 MB of of the RAM is overlapping critical system functions, making it non-addressable by the system.
This is not a Mac-specific issue, and it calls into question the claims some other manufacturers are making about 945PM chipset-based models being able to accept 4 GB of RAM. For example, HP's Compaq NC8430 makes use of the Intel 945PM chipset, and claims a maximum of 4 GB RAM with no caveats listed.
UPDATE: Some readers noted that HP does provide a technical specifications page for the NC8430 stating that "all memory may not be available" above 3 GB. Still, the online HP store allows users to purchase 4 GB of RAM as a shipping option with no apparent indication of the limitation.
[i]A number of items that must be stored in physical RAM space, and when RAM reaches 4 GB, there is some overlap. In other words, in a 3 GB RAM configuration, there is no overlap with the memory ranges required for certain system functions. Between 3 GB and 4 GB, however, system memory attempts to occupy space that is already assigned to these functions. The net result is that at least 3 GB of RAM should be fully accessible, while when 4 GB of RAM installed, ~700 MB of of the RAM is overlapping critical system functions, making it non-addressable by the system. ]
When I had stumbled across a workstation with 4GB, it had 500MB taken out, not 700. But this should not be a problem if you use the notebook with a 64 bit OS. I don't know if XP x64 is offered with any of those notebooks yet or not.
That was a lot of work!
That was a lot of quoted text!
That was a lot of quoted text!
But you had to find it first.
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35389
I hope this isn't inherent in Intel's implementation of 64-bit pointers addressing (a kludge to allow 32-bit pointers at the same time as 64-bit), and is only an eccentricity of this particular chipset.
Are you guys saying that the CPU is 64-bit but the chipset isn't? That seems strange for Apple to do. I just reviewed the WWDC sessions and Xcode cheerfully will produce 4 separate binaries in one bundle, so there is indeed a 64-bit Intel binary.
But you had to find it first.
I meant your heavily quoted reply.
Are you guys saying that the CPU is 64-bit but the chipset isn't? That seems strange for Apple to do. I just reviewed the WWDC sessions and Xcode cheerfully will produce 4 separate binaries in one bundle, so there is indeed a 64-bit Intel binary.
That would be odd, wouldn't it? But it would be Intel not Apple. Why would Apple use an inappropriate chipset if Intel had the appropriate one?
I meant your heavily quoted reply.
Ah, yes. I didn't look. I thought I was responding to Dan.
I just quoted the post since I was refering to the entire thing.
JUST SHIPPED AS OF 1 MIN AGO!
w00000000t
btw, my MBP is glossy screen, Idk if this is the first glossy to ship but YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
YES
JUST SHIPPED AS OF 1 MIN AGO!
w00000000t
btw, my MBP is glossy screen, Idk if this is the first glossy to ship but YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
If they give you a shipping notice on a Saturday or Sunday, what that really means is that it's packed and ready to go. FedEx won't even pick it up until the next business day.
That would be odd, wouldn't it? But it would be Intel not Apple. Why would Apple use an inappropriate chipset if Intel had the appropriate one?
I dunno. It seems like a kludge to me - from what I can piece together, the Intel addressing wants to use the top 1 GB of the first 4 GB for hardware I/O triggers and such. Why they need a whole GB puzzles me. And they only use the virtual addresses - i.e. if you only have 3GB of real memory it doesn't use any of it - it just reserves the 3-4 GB virtual space for itself for some reason.
As far as I can tell, the PPC does not do that. I have 3.5 GB in my G5 and Apple never said anything about not using the upper GB. In fact, in Tiger you can write a Unix app that cheerfully uses 64-bit pointers as long as you don't call into Cocoa or Carbon or AppKit.
Me to - at least I have a tracking number, but Fedex has not yet picked up the package, and Apple has not yet billed my credit card. Mine is a base model with a 160gb hard drive upgrade.
Mine has been received by FedEx, too! I ordered a 2.33GHz, with the 160 gig HD.
If they give you a shipping notice on a Saturday or Sunday, what that really means is that it's packed and ready to go. FedEx won't even pick it up until the next business day.
actually, i just checked, and it was picked up already in shanghai and is on its way as of 1:38am, which I assume refers to shanghai time, :-) so whenever it says shipped on sunday, its probably on its way cause shanghai is already a day ahead.
So you were sorta right
in the air for 4 hours 8)
I dunno. It seems like a kludge to me - from what I can piece together, the Intel addressing wants to use the top 1 GB of the first 4 GB for hardware I/O triggers and such. Why they need a whole GB puzzles me. And they only use the virtual addresses - i.e. if you only have 3GB of real memory it doesn't use any of it - it just reserves the 3-4 GB virtual space for itself for some reason.
As far as I can tell, the PPC does not do that. I have 3.5 GB in my G5 and Apple never said anything about not using the upper GB. In fact, in Tiger you can write a Unix app that cheerfully uses 64-bit pointers as long as you don't call into Cocoa or Carbon or AppKit.
It's just a mobile chipset problem though, as far as I know.
While Apple also uses them for desktops. that isn't their purpose. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Intel is coming out witrh a desktop chipset for these moblie chips since they seem to be getting popular for small, power saving desktop models. That might solve the problem, at least for some machines.
But, for portable use, the need for more than 3GB hasn't been as much of an issue. One reason is the price of the SODIMMS. As the price drops there will be more demand. Perhaps we will see a change then. I doubt this limit is set in stone.
actually, i just checked, and it was picked up already in shanghai and is on its way as of 1:38am, which I assume refers to shanghai time, :-) so whenever it says shipped on sunday, its probably on its way cause shanghai is already a day ahead.
So you were sorta right
in the air for 4 hours 8)
Whoa, that's weird. I got the same exact shipment time.... I hope it's coming across the pacific.