Actually, I would say that this is Apple's failing, not AppleInsider's. Apple should provide much more information with their machines for both new computer users (yes, there still are some out there) and for Switchers.
Anyway, yes, I second your suggestion.
Write up a FAQ for Switchers and I will sticky it.
I think this is the first time ever I have seen anyone want to hide the main menu bar on a Mac.
I've always wanted to do the same thing the original poster is asking about - maximizing windows to use the entire screen and hiding the main menu bar. It is very nice and pollished how Windows does this and I hope Apple does it with Leopard.
I've always wanted to do the same thing the original poster is asking about - maximizing windows to use the entire screen and hiding the main menu bar. It is very nice and pollished how Windows does this and I hope Apple does it with Leopard.
What??
No! Only certain programs need a true full screen mode, and they HAVE them. Most notably Aperture, Final Cut, DVD Player... You don't need full screen Microsoft Word to type up some document. The main menu is essential to the operation of the programs, and many programs in Windows look absolutely shitty because the menu bar is squished at the top of each and every window, just wasting that much more space. Not to mention that the menu bar offers various other stuff that are not application specific, such as spotlight, date/time, user switching, Apple menu, volume, blue tooth, airport, specialized quick application access (i.e. Adium menu when Adium is open).
And a word about the dock's efficiency: numerous studies show that people respond much more quickly and efficiently to graphical stimulus rather than text. The dock offers a quick access location for your favorite and most used applications, documents, folders, etc. In addition, many of the icons are dynamic, allowing for information to be displayed without activating the application. For instance, the Mail icon has the number of unread messages displayed in the dock. Not only that but it also offers other options such as viewing the contents of a folder within the doc, viewing specialize menus such as in iTunes, etc. Instead of hunting for the text tab at the bottom of your windows screen, you are just clicking on minimized pictures, and you know exactly what you want. If you choose to hide applications, the same concept applies. If I hide mail, but want mail again, the most natural thing to do is to click on the mail icon restoring hidden or minimized windows. Expose or Apple-Tab helps cut through the clutter of open windows, where as Windows wastes space by keeping open windows highlighted in the task bar.
Spotlight is a much better Application launcher than the All programs menu in Windows. Do you really WANT to sift through a long long menu of applications that wastes the entire screens space? Didn't think so. In Mac OS X, it is as simple as typing the first few letters of the name of your application you want to open.
Many people use the excuse that they do not want to go to their keyboard to switch applications, and therefore expose is terrible. But this is why we have the side buttons on the mighty mouse, and hot corners. These solutions are extremely good for application switching. Or, going back to the dock, you could just click on the application in the dock that you want to switch to.
Not to mention that a vast majority of windows programs look like they are not quite up to par with what you would expect from a three year old with crayons.
I agree with the original poster. These should be options in OS X.
For starters it's not like he's saying the menu bar should go away completely, just hide itself until you bring your mouse to it.. Nothing wrong with that idea at all.
The lack of full screen windows have always bugged me. The excuse that it's a waste of space is a really poor excuse. I'd personally rather look at a full sized window then see a bunch of other cluttered/variable sized windows in the background to the side of the one I'm working in. How distracting that is. Not to mention it just makes everything look messy. And even if there was a maximize option it's not like you couldn't still work in windowed mode if you preferred.
As for the menu bar in every window. I also think there should be an option to have it in every window instead of just at the top. An option. I mean I know it saves window space, that's good, but it can also get confusing. I can't count how many times I've gone to the menu bar to click on the file or edit option only to realize I have the wrong program selected. What a waste of energy to have to go and select the window and then come back up to the top. This wouldn't be such a problem if there was a full screen maximize mode. But when you have multiple windows all cluttered next to each other, you always have to check which one is selected before going to the menu bar up top.
Nothing wrong with having options.People should be able to use their OS the way they want to, not the way they are forced to. Windows and Linux have some good ideas, lets incorporate them into OS X. If Apple users just sit on the side with their noses up in the air and say "This is how it's been since '84, this is how it should remain" then you're going to sadly get left in the dust.
Just HIde Others if seeing other non-active windows actually bothers you. Option-command-H.
Hiding the Menu Bar - what would you have underneath it that you need to use that space for? And what if you want to click that space? How can you click it if the Menu Bar comes down when the mouse goes there?
Just HIde Others if seeing other non-active windows actually bothers you. Option-command-H.
But this doesn't change having to check to see which app is active before clicking on the menu bar. I've never understood why you would have an app's menu active when the app's wndow is hidden from view (minimized). I've gotten used to the Command+Q for quitting apps, but I cannot tell you how many times I've accidentally quit the wrong app because the app staring me in the face was not the active app. Rather it was one that was minimized.
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Hiding the Menu Bar - what would you have underneath it that you need to use that space for? And what if you want to click that space? How can you click it if the Menu Bar comes down when the mouse goes there?
All the same can be said about auto-hiding the dock, which is an option.
But this doesn't change having to check to see which app is active before clicking on the menu bar. (...) but I cannot tell you how many times I've accidentally quit the wrong app because the app staring me in the face was not the active app. Rather it was one that was minimized.
That's why the name of the application is written in bold right next to the Apple menu. Hiding the menu bar would not help you at all when you can't figure out which application is in the foreground...
I've never understood why you would have an app's menu active when the app's wndow is hidden from view (minimized).
Because you might want to open a new document, open a saved document from the Recent Items menu, open the Help information, open the app's Preferences, ..... you get the idea.
Look at the window that is the frontmost window of the active application - its title bar is not dimmed and the red-yellow-green buttons are lit. That means it is the active window. Conversely, windows that do not belong to the active app will have dimmed title bar text and their red-yellow-green buttons are not lit. So you can tell right away if the window that you are looking at has its application active.
I've always wanted to do the same thing the original poster is asking about - maximizing windows to use the entire screen and hiding the main menu bar. It is very nice and pollished how Windows does this and I hope Apple does it with Leopard.
Although this has been discussed before: Apple menu bar is NOT the equivalent to the Windows startbar that usually sits at the bottom of the screen! On the Mac, the Dock is more or less equivalent to that. Hiding is available for both.
The menu bar at the top of OS X, again, uses less space than having the full menu crap in each and every window.
Apple for sure will not change its over 22 year-old tradition of having the menu bar at the top just for Windows users feeling a bit more comfortable...
I agree with the original poster. These should be options in OS X.
For starters it's not like he's saying the menu bar should go away completely, just hide itself until you bring your mouse to it.. Nothing wrong with that idea at all.
As for the menu bar in every window. I also think there should be an option to have it in every window instead of just at the top. An option. I mean I know it saves window space, that's good, but it can also get confusing. I can't count how many times I've gone to the menu bar to click on the file or edit option only to realize I have the wrong program selected. What a waste of energy to have to go and select the window and then come back up to the top. This wouldn't be such a problem if there was a full screen maximize mode. But when you have multiple windows all cluttered next to each other, you always have to check which one is selected before going to the menu bar up top.
Nothing wrong with having options. People should be able to use their OS the way they want to, not the way they are forced to. Windows and Linux have some good ideas, lets incorporate them into OS X. If Apple users just sit on the side with their noses up in the air and say "This is how it's been since '84, this is how it should remain" then you're going to sadly get left in the dust.
This is why Apple will never change it: they have no interest at all in making their GUI more Windows-like! This is OS X and NOT Windows!!! It's part of their philosophy and "GUI-corporate-identity".
I've never understood why you would have an app's menu active when the app's wndow is hidden from view (minimized).
Most apps have multiple document windows possible. Word. Safari. Mail. iChat. Pretty much all but a few.
So what you're asking for is... "as long as there is a valid window open, show the menu bar - but once the last window is closed, hide the menu bar until another window is opened"
Alright, so... explain how you're going to open that new window if you can't get to the menu bar of the app to do so?
Alternatives:
1) Click on Dock icon, have it always do the 'default' (ie, blank document or open file dialog). Great! Until you actually want to do something other than that, like say, open the Help system.
2) Have the last window closing actually auto-quit the app. Clicking on the Dock icon would then relaunch the app, and you're back to the menu bar.
#2 is already done in a few apps on the Mac, they're called single-window-apps. You get one window, that's it, and when you close it, it quits the app. Most people dislike this behavior.
Neither of the above alternatives is particularly a great idea, and just adds a lot of complexity with nearly zero benefit.
Nothing wrong with having options.People should be able to use their OS the way they want to, not the way they are forced to.
Agreed. So stop forcing Windowsisms on the Mac.
Quote:
Windows and Linux have some good ideas, lets incorporate them into OS X.
They have been, as time has gone on. Those that haven't... well... they weren't that good.
Quote:
If Apple users just sit on the side with their noses up in the air and say "This is how it's been since '84, this is how it should remain" then you're going to sadly get left in the dust.
You obviously haven't been watching Apple very long, have you? Nothing on the Mac now is the same as it was 7 years ago. Nada. Vista has more in common with Windows 95 than MacOS X 10.4 does with Mac OS9, from the code through the UI.
I'm continually amazed at how many people assume that because Windows does it X way, that it must be best.
Re: menu bars on windows: look up Fitt's Law. Learn it. Love it. Live it. Edge-placed UI elements are faster to hit than ones in the middle of the screen, the distance to get to them on the edge (within reason) doesn't really matter. The "but it's alllll the way up there" argument doesn't hold true. And it never has.
Re: failing to see which window is active: I'm stunned to hear this is a problem for anyone - I can't recall ever having this issue, except for one specific instance with hidden windows that I won't get into right now. Non-active window titlebars are dimmed, and their title buttons are greyed out - only the front-most, active window has the red/yellow/green 'stoplight'. Isn't that kind of an obvious, at-a-glance giveaway? Isn't the name of the current application in big bolded letters up left sort of a big clue as well? I can understand how, if you have a reflex to directly target a window's internal menubar, that you're not used to checking these things, but really... it becomes instinctual after a short while.
I don't understand why anyone would buy a non-Windows OS, and then expect it to work like Windows. Hell, why would you *want* it to? If that was the case, why not buy Windows? That's an honest, serious question BTW... why, if you want the Windows experience, did you not buy Windows?
Most apps have multiple document windows possible. Word. Safari. Mail. iChat. Pretty much all but a few.
So what you're asking for is... "as long as there is a valid window open, show the menu bar - but once the last window is closed, hide the menu bar until another window is opened"
Alright, so... explain how you're going to open that new window if you can't get to the menu bar of the app to do so?
Alternatives:
1) Click on Dock icon, have it always do the 'default' (ie, blank document or open file dialog). Great! Until you actually want to do something other than that, like say, open the Help system.
2) Have the last window closing actually auto-quit the app. Clicking on the Dock icon would then relaunch the app, and you're back to the menu bar.
#2 is already done in a few apps on the Mac, they're called single-window-apps. You get one window, that's it, and when you close it, it quits the app. Most people dislike this behavior.
Neither of the above alternatives is particularly a great idea, and just adds a lot of complexity with nearly zero benefit.
#2. And I guess you can attribute it to my still fairly recent switcher status. (About 5 mos. now). Yes, when I close the last window of an app, I expect that app to quit. Still unlearning that one.
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Re: menu bars on windows: look up Fitt's Law. Learn it. Love it. Live it.
So you think it is faster to read a menu bar to see which app is active instead of it looking at the big square window right in front of you?
Quote:
I don't understand why anyone would buy a non-Windows OS, and then expect it to work like Windows. Hell, why would you *want* it to? If that was the case, why not buy Windows? That's an honest, serious question BTW... why, if you want the Windows experience, did you not buy Windows?
I don't expect it to work like Windows. But I think a lot of the concepts that are used in Windows can be useful OPTIONS on the Mac. And BTW, the Windows experience that I grew tired of was not with their menu-ing system, but rather the viruses, the need to reinstall every 6 months to get performance back, the need for all the security updates, the reboots.....etc.
You obviously haven't been watching Apple very long, have you? Nothing on the Mac now is the same as it was 7 years ago. Nada. Vista has more in common with Windows 95 than MacOS X 10.4 does with Mac OS9, from the code through the UI.
I'm continually amazed at how many people assume that because Windows does it X way, that it must be best.
Re: menu bars on windows: look up Fitt's Law. Learn it. Love it. Live it. Edge-placed UI elements are faster to hit than ones in the middle of the screen, the distance to get to them on the edge (within reason) doesn't really matter. The "but it's alllll the way up there" argument doesn't hold true. And it never has.
Re: failing to see which window is active: I'm stunned to hear this is a problem for anyone - I can't recall ever having this issue, except for one specific instance with hidden windows that I won't get into right now. Non-active window titlebars are dimmed, and their title buttons are greyed out - only the front-most, active window has the red/yellow/green 'stoplight'. Isn't that kind of an obvious, at-a-glance giveaway? Isn't the name of the current application in big bolded letters up left sort of a big clue as well? I can understand how, if you have a reflex to directly target a window's internal menubar, that you're not used to checking these things, but really... it becomes instinctual after a short while.
I don't understand why anyone would buy a non-Windows OS, and then expect it to work like Windows. Hell, why would you *want* it to? If that was the case, why not buy Windows? That's an honest, serious question BTW... why, if you want the Windows experience, did you not buy Windows?
First I have been using Apple machines for over 20 years. That doesn't stop the fact that I disagree with some ways they work.
To try and answer your last question. I don't think Windows users who are switching really want a totally different OS. I haven't personally heard a lot of Windows users complain about the usability of Windows. If anything they complain about the viruses and the stability and all the other crap. To Windows users the way Windows works with it's taskbar and maximize is how a computer is supposed to work. Because that's what they are used to. And really you can't fault them for that.
I know when I first swtiched back to mac with OSX I had a hard time with it's graphic elements in the dock versus reading things in the Windows taskbar. My mind had grown used to the way Windows worked and I became fast with it. My wife who uses a PC not all that long ago told me she doesn't like my computer because "it's hard to use". It's hard to use because she's not used it. And according to her she doesn't see any reason in wasting her time learning a new computer OS when the one she has works perfectly fine. Though she does like the dock magnifying and thinks the machine is nice looking.
So I think that's what it comes down to. Many Windows users are drawn to Macs because of the nice hardware and some of the interesting features. Including no viruses and a more stable backend. But at the end of the day they want to be able to use the system the way they've always used it, with the option to do things differently. And if Apple really wants more Windows users they should really take a long hard look at the idea of allowing OSX to do some Windows-like things. Even if some snobby old Mac users would protest. Most mac users are open minded and would go for more options and customizing.
Comments
Open the installer again and choose Uninstall.
Why didn't you like menufela? I can't see how it couldn't have done what you wanted, it's so simple.
Actually, I would say that this is Apple's failing, not AppleInsider's. Apple should provide much more information with their machines for both new computer users (yes, there still are some out there) and for Switchers.
Anyway, yes, I second your suggestion.
Write up a FAQ for Switchers and I will sticky it.
"Can someone tell me how to get rid of the menu bar at the top?
Is it not possible to auto hide it kike you can in windows with the task bar?"
Lets return to our regularly scheduled program.
Did this dude just call us kikes?
"Can someone tell me how to get rid of the menu bar at the top?
Is it not possible to auto hide it kike you can in windows with the task bar?"
Lets return to our regularly scheduled program.
I know a guy who got banned for mistyping "azzkicker" as "azzlicker".
Write up a FAQ for Switchers and I will sticky it.
so, just start a new thread and you'll sort it out yeh?
I think this is the first time ever I have seen anyone want to hide the main menu bar on a Mac.
I've always wanted to do the same thing the original poster is asking about - maximizing windows to use the entire screen and hiding the main menu bar. It is very nice and pollished how Windows does this and I hope Apple does it with Leopard.
I've always wanted to do the same thing the original poster is asking about - maximizing windows to use the entire screen and hiding the main menu bar. It is very nice and pollished how Windows does this and I hope Apple does it with Leopard.
What??
No! Only certain programs need a true full screen mode, and they HAVE them. Most notably Aperture, Final Cut, DVD Player... You don't need full screen Microsoft Word to type up some document. The main menu is essential to the operation of the programs, and many programs in Windows look absolutely shitty because the menu bar is squished at the top of each and every window, just wasting that much more space. Not to mention that the menu bar offers various other stuff that are not application specific, such as spotlight, date/time, user switching, Apple menu, volume, blue tooth, airport, specialized quick application access (i.e. Adium menu when Adium is open).
And a word about the dock's efficiency: numerous studies show that people respond much more quickly and efficiently to graphical stimulus rather than text. The dock offers a quick access location for your favorite and most used applications, documents, folders, etc. In addition, many of the icons are dynamic, allowing for information to be displayed without activating the application. For instance, the Mail icon has the number of unread messages displayed in the dock. Not only that but it also offers other options such as viewing the contents of a folder within the doc, viewing specialize menus such as in iTunes, etc. Instead of hunting for the text tab at the bottom of your windows screen, you are just clicking on minimized pictures, and you know exactly what you want. If you choose to hide applications, the same concept applies. If I hide mail, but want mail again, the most natural thing to do is to click on the mail icon restoring hidden or minimized windows. Expose or Apple-Tab helps cut through the clutter of open windows, where as Windows wastes space by keeping open windows highlighted in the task bar.
Spotlight is a much better Application launcher than the All programs menu in Windows. Do you really WANT to sift through a long long menu of applications that wastes the entire screens space? Didn't think so. In Mac OS X, it is as simple as typing the first few letters of the name of your application you want to open.
Many people use the excuse that they do not want to go to their keyboard to switch applications, and therefore expose is terrible. But this is why we have the side buttons on the mighty mouse, and hot corners. These solutions are extremely good for application switching. Or, going back to the dock, you could just click on the application in the dock that you want to switch to.
Not to mention that a vast majority of windows programs look like they are not quite up to par with what you would expect from a three year old with crayons.
For starters it's not like he's saying the menu bar should go away completely, just hide itself until you bring your mouse to it.. Nothing wrong with that idea at all.
The lack of full screen windows have always bugged me. The excuse that it's a waste of space is a really poor excuse. I'd personally rather look at a full sized window then see a bunch of other cluttered/variable sized windows in the background to the side of the one I'm working in. How distracting that is. Not to mention it just makes everything look messy. And even if there was a maximize option it's not like you couldn't still work in windowed mode if you preferred.
As for the menu bar in every window. I also think there should be an option to have it in every window instead of just at the top. An option. I mean I know it saves window space, that's good, but it can also get confusing. I can't count how many times I've gone to the menu bar to click on the file or edit option only to realize I have the wrong program selected. What a waste of energy to have to go and select the window and then come back up to the top. This wouldn't be such a problem if there was a full screen maximize mode. But when you have multiple windows all cluttered next to each other, you always have to check which one is selected before going to the menu bar up top.
Nothing wrong with having options.People should be able to use their OS the way they want to, not the way they are forced to. Windows and Linux have some good ideas, lets incorporate them into OS X. If Apple users just sit on the side with their noses up in the air and say "This is how it's been since '84, this is how it should remain" then you're going to sadly get left in the dust.
Hiding the Menu Bar - what would you have underneath it that you need to use that space for? And what if you want to click that space? How can you click it if the Menu Bar comes down when the mouse goes there?
Just HIde Others if seeing other non-active windows actually bothers you. Option-command-H.
But this doesn't change having to check to see which app is active before clicking on the menu bar. I've never understood why you would have an app's menu active when the app's wndow is hidden from view (minimized). I've gotten used to the Command+Q for quitting apps, but I cannot tell you how many times I've accidentally quit the wrong app because the app staring me in the face was not the active app. Rather it was one that was minimized.
Hiding the Menu Bar - what would you have underneath it that you need to use that space for? And what if you want to click that space? How can you click it if the Menu Bar comes down when the mouse goes there?
All the same can be said about auto-hiding the dock, which is an option.
But this doesn't change having to check to see which app is active before clicking on the menu bar. (...) but I cannot tell you how many times I've accidentally quit the wrong app because the app staring me in the face was not the active app. Rather it was one that was minimized.
That's why the name of the application is written in bold right next to the Apple menu. Hiding the menu bar would not help you at all when you can't figure out which application is in the foreground...
I've never understood why you would have an app's menu active when the app's wndow is hidden from view (minimized).
Because you might want to open a new document, open a saved document from the Recent Items menu, open the Help information, open the app's Preferences, ..... you get the idea.
Look at the window that is the frontmost window of the active application - its title bar is not dimmed and the red-yellow-green buttons are lit. That means it is the active window. Conversely, windows that do not belong to the active app will have dimmed title bar text and their red-yellow-green buttons are not lit. So you can tell right away if the window that you are looking at has its application active.
I've always wanted to do the same thing the original poster is asking about - maximizing windows to use the entire screen and hiding the main menu bar. It is very nice and pollished how Windows does this and I hope Apple does it with Leopard.
Although this has been discussed before: Apple menu bar is NOT the equivalent to the Windows startbar that usually sits at the bottom of the screen! On the Mac, the Dock is more or less equivalent to that. Hiding is available for both.
The menu bar at the top of OS X, again, uses less space than having the full menu crap in each and every window.
Apple for sure will not change its over 22 year-old tradition of having the menu bar at the top just for Windows users feeling a bit more comfortable...
I agree with the original poster. These should be options in OS X.
For starters it's not like he's saying the menu bar should go away completely, just hide itself until you bring your mouse to it.. Nothing wrong with that idea at all.
As for the menu bar in every window. I also think there should be an option to have it in every window instead of just at the top. An option. I mean I know it saves window space, that's good, but it can also get confusing. I can't count how many times I've gone to the menu bar to click on the file or edit option only to realize I have the wrong program selected. What a waste of energy to have to go and select the window and then come back up to the top. This wouldn't be such a problem if there was a full screen maximize mode. But when you have multiple windows all cluttered next to each other, you always have to check which one is selected before going to the menu bar up top.
Nothing wrong with having options. People should be able to use their OS the way they want to, not the way they are forced to. Windows and Linux have some good ideas, lets incorporate them into OS X. If Apple users just sit on the side with their noses up in the air and say "This is how it's been since '84, this is how it should remain" then you're going to sadly get left in the dust.
This is why Apple will never change it: they have no interest at all in making their GUI more Windows-like! This is OS X and NOT Windows!!! It's part of their philosophy and "GUI-corporate-identity".
I've never understood why you would have an app's menu active when the app's wndow is hidden from view (minimized).
Most apps have multiple document windows possible. Word. Safari. Mail. iChat. Pretty much all but a few.
So what you're asking for is... "as long as there is a valid window open, show the menu bar - but once the last window is closed, hide the menu bar until another window is opened"
Alright, so... explain how you're going to open that new window if you can't get to the menu bar of the app to do so?
Alternatives:
1) Click on Dock icon, have it always do the 'default' (ie, blank document or open file dialog). Great! Until you actually want to do something other than that, like say, open the Help system.
2) Have the last window closing actually auto-quit the app. Clicking on the Dock icon would then relaunch the app, and you're back to the menu bar.
#2 is already done in a few apps on the Mac, they're called single-window-apps. You get one window, that's it, and when you close it, it quits the app. Most people dislike this behavior.
Neither of the above alternatives is particularly a great idea, and just adds a lot of complexity with nearly zero benefit.
Nothing wrong with having options.People should be able to use their OS the way they want to, not the way they are forced to.
Agreed. So stop forcing Windowsisms on the Mac.
Windows and Linux have some good ideas, lets incorporate them into OS X.
They have been, as time has gone on. Those that haven't... well... they weren't that good.
If Apple users just sit on the side with their noses up in the air and say "This is how it's been since '84, this is how it should remain" then you're going to sadly get left in the dust.
You obviously haven't been watching Apple very long, have you? Nothing on the Mac now is the same as it was 7 years ago. Nada. Vista has more in common with Windows 95 than MacOS X 10.4 does with Mac OS9, from the code through the UI.
I'm continually amazed at how many people assume that because Windows does it X way, that it must be best.
Re: menu bars on windows: look up Fitt's Law. Learn it. Love it. Live it. Edge-placed UI elements are faster to hit than ones in the middle of the screen, the distance to get to them on the edge (within reason) doesn't really matter. The "but it's alllll the way up there" argument doesn't hold true. And it never has.
Re: failing to see which window is active: I'm stunned to hear this is a problem for anyone - I can't recall ever having this issue, except for one specific instance with hidden windows that I won't get into right now. Non-active window titlebars are dimmed, and their title buttons are greyed out - only the front-most, active window has the red/yellow/green 'stoplight'. Isn't that kind of an obvious, at-a-glance giveaway? Isn't the name of the current application in big bolded letters up left sort of a big clue as well? I can understand how, if you have a reflex to directly target a window's internal menubar, that you're not used to checking these things, but really... it becomes instinctual after a short while.
I don't understand why anyone would buy a non-Windows OS, and then expect it to work like Windows. Hell, why would you *want* it to? If that was the case, why not buy Windows? That's an honest, serious question BTW... why, if you want the Windows experience, did you not buy Windows?
Most apps have multiple document windows possible. Word. Safari. Mail. iChat. Pretty much all but a few.
So what you're asking for is... "as long as there is a valid window open, show the menu bar - but once the last window is closed, hide the menu bar until another window is opened"
Alright, so... explain how you're going to open that new window if you can't get to the menu bar of the app to do so?
Alternatives:
1) Click on Dock icon, have it always do the 'default' (ie, blank document or open file dialog). Great! Until you actually want to do something other than that, like say, open the Help system.
2) Have the last window closing actually auto-quit the app. Clicking on the Dock icon would then relaunch the app, and you're back to the menu bar.
#2 is already done in a few apps on the Mac, they're called single-window-apps. You get one window, that's it, and when you close it, it quits the app. Most people dislike this behavior.
Neither of the above alternatives is particularly a great idea, and just adds a lot of complexity with nearly zero benefit.
#2. And I guess you can attribute it to my still fairly recent switcher status. (About 5 mos. now). Yes, when I close the last window of an app, I expect that app to quit. Still unlearning that one.
Re: menu bars on windows: look up Fitt's Law. Learn it. Love it. Live it.
So you think it is faster to read a menu bar to see which app is active instead of it looking at the big square window right in front of you?
I don't understand why anyone would buy a non-Windows OS, and then expect it to work like Windows. Hell, why would you *want* it to? If that was the case, why not buy Windows? That's an honest, serious question BTW... why, if you want the Windows experience, did you not buy Windows?
I don't expect it to work like Windows. But I think a lot of the concepts that are used in Windows can be useful OPTIONS on the Mac. And BTW, the Windows experience that I grew tired of was not with their menu-ing system, but rather the viruses, the need to reinstall every 6 months to get performance back, the need for all the security updates, the reboots.....etc.
Agreed. So stop forcing Windowsisms on the Mac.
You obviously haven't been watching Apple very long, have you? Nothing on the Mac now is the same as it was 7 years ago. Nada. Vista has more in common with Windows 95 than MacOS X 10.4 does with Mac OS9, from the code through the UI.
I'm continually amazed at how many people assume that because Windows does it X way, that it must be best.
Re: menu bars on windows: look up Fitt's Law. Learn it. Love it. Live it. Edge-placed UI elements are faster to hit than ones in the middle of the screen, the distance to get to them on the edge (within reason) doesn't really matter. The "but it's alllll the way up there" argument doesn't hold true. And it never has.
Re: failing to see which window is active: I'm stunned to hear this is a problem for anyone - I can't recall ever having this issue, except for one specific instance with hidden windows that I won't get into right now. Non-active window titlebars are dimmed, and their title buttons are greyed out - only the front-most, active window has the red/yellow/green 'stoplight'. Isn't that kind of an obvious, at-a-glance giveaway? Isn't the name of the current application in big bolded letters up left sort of a big clue as well? I can understand how, if you have a reflex to directly target a window's internal menubar, that you're not used to checking these things, but really... it becomes instinctual after a short while.
I don't understand why anyone would buy a non-Windows OS, and then expect it to work like Windows. Hell, why would you *want* it to? If that was the case, why not buy Windows? That's an honest, serious question BTW... why, if you want the Windows experience, did you not buy Windows?
First I have been using Apple machines for over 20 years. That doesn't stop the fact that I disagree with some ways they work.
To try and answer your last question. I don't think Windows users who are switching really want a totally different OS. I haven't personally heard a lot of Windows users complain about the usability of Windows. If anything they complain about the viruses and the stability and all the other crap. To Windows users the way Windows works with it's taskbar and maximize is how a computer is supposed to work. Because that's what they are used to. And really you can't fault them for that.
I know when I first swtiched back to mac with OSX I had a hard time with it's graphic elements in the dock versus reading things in the Windows taskbar. My mind had grown used to the way Windows worked and I became fast with it. My wife who uses a PC not all that long ago told me she doesn't like my computer because "it's hard to use". It's hard to use because she's not used it. And according to her she doesn't see any reason in wasting her time learning a new computer OS when the one she has works perfectly fine. Though she does like the dock magnifying and thinks the machine is nice looking.
So I think that's what it comes down to. Many Windows users are drawn to Macs because of the nice hardware and some of the interesting features. Including no viruses and a more stable backend. But at the end of the day they want to be able to use the system the way they've always used it, with the option to do things differently. And if Apple really wants more Windows users they should really take a long hard look at the idea of allowing OSX to do some Windows-like things. Even if some snobby old Mac users would protest. Most mac users are open minded and would go for more options and customizing.