No they shed money for the best player on the market that lasted halfway through the 2nd gen. The Sony DVP S7000. There were other mega-buck DVD players but I would guess most folks on AVS spending at that level got the Sony. The ones with deeper wallets got the Camelot Roundtable. My first DVD player was the Pioneer DV-414 purchased for $380 or so (slightly under $400 is all I really remember) in the summer of 1999...amusingly enough I think at a Circuit City on a whim since I had just moved but all my HT gear was still in transit.
The average sale price for DVD players in 1997 was only $591 declining to $422 in 1998.
Not so much given the average sale price in 1997 was only $519. Only 300K units shipped. 1998 was better with 1M units but the ASP is down a hundred bucks too.
Please. DIVX was DEAD by June 1999 and barely lasted a year. LD was always niche and never a J6P format. VHS wasn't a disc format but the old incumbent like DVD today.
It isn't new given SACD and DVDA but it sure is stupid and NOT good for the consumer. Prices dropped ANYWAY and the historical numbers show that. Which you would know if you weren't pulling numbers out of your ass or actually owned a DVD player within 4 years of launch.
If there weren't a format war sales would be higher overall IMHO and pricing would be naturally falling anyway perhaps 6-12 months slower based on DVD's history but falling reasonably none the less. That feeling is shared.
We have a format war in XMas 2008 and both formats are likely doomed. Hollywood better get its act together.
Vinea
Thanks for backing up what I've been saying with some actual facts
If I remember correctly, when DVD was launched in March 1997 in the states, I believe the the first player was retailed at $699 or so. Of course, there were always a higher end options which even now cost over $3k if one cares to look in the enthusiast line, but most video enthusiasts at the time were true high end users. Therefore, many did buy $1k+ units. In the case of DVD, the entry level hardware did not drop more than half within the first 12 month product cycle. It took nearly 4 years before the price starts dropping below $200 which I believe the mass acceptance started between late summer/Fall of year 2000.
However, at the current rate of HD-DVD, it's aiming to hit about 1/3 of the launch price by end of 2007 with HD-DVDlaunch date being March 2006. We will very likely see sub $200/$150 HD-DVD players by the holiday season this year. Such price drop could only be possible by fierce promotions due to the presence of it's competing format. As you have pointed out, that price does drop over time, but not at the rate we are seeing with HD-DVD hardwares.
If the HiDef format did followed the same steps as the DVD, than most of us should not have seen sub $200 HiDef players until late 2009...... but we're already there and it's only 2007.
VHS dropped in price VERY slowly. why? because the durm head mechanism was costly complex bitch to get right AND get cheap, also video recorders only had one market.
CD player pricing also dropped fairly slowly, it was a new format with a new mechanism and the D/A chips were costly to begin with, but it dropped faster than VHS ever could, but initially it was ONLY a Playback device. Eventually it ended up in PCs
DVD Players were costly being a new platform, and the decoding chips were new and initially costly, but the price came down faster than CD (its the fastest growing format in the history of formats ) due to being built in part upon the CD drive mechanism, meaning costs could be lowered because some of the R&D was already done.
HD-DVD being an extention of DVD has some cost savings built in, in terms of bringing it to market, so is initially cheaper than BD, if it had been the single format then it had the potential for great growth due to relatively cheap initial costs.
BD slightly more complex not being built on top of DVD, so a higher initial cost, but then it has extra space, and the costs will drop quickly too if critical mass can be reached.
VHS wasn't ever going to be in PCs or consoles
CDs took a while to get there, DVDs were almost instantly "needed" by computer users and once next gen recorders are included or avalible it will be further area for the drive to be sold into, helping acceptance and generating revenue.
Sonys PS1 with its CD rom drive was a game changer, yes I know there was the Atari Jaguar and the Amiga 32 (I think I still have mine somewhere!) the PS1 sold 100 million plus, thats a lot of drives on top of the millions of CD players sold already, pushing the cost of reproducing the drives themselves WAAY down, this gets repeated with DVD.
But at this point I think its RECORDERS we need in computers, Toshiba have a great plus with the ability to push HD-DVD in their laptop line, but theres no sign of a recordable drive (Is this part of the deal they have with the exclusive studios? - a question I don't think anyone has addressed here)
Sony have a great way of pushing BD in the PS3 there are different expectations with the PS3 as NO console* has had a recordable drive in it, but computer drives have been recordable for at least the last 6/7 years (from CD to DVD). so its slightly different from the Tosh laptops "needing" a recordable drive.
*Ignoring the PSX or whatever it was called in Japan (as it sold about 2 machines) if indeed it did have a recordable DVD drive, I can't remember.
You have no facts to support your assertion that the average sale price was $1K+.
Quote:
In the case of DVD, the entry level hardware did not drop more than half within the first 12 month product cycle. It took nearly 4 years before the price starts dropping below $200 which I believe the mass acceptance started between late summer/Fall of year 2000.
You can't click a link and read?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Scally
According to market research firm Intellect ASW, the average price of for a DVD player sold in November 1999 was $298, down 30% from an average price of $428 for players sold during November 1998. Players often sold for $200 or less during the 1999 holiday selling season, and very few models even came close to the hardware's $700 opening price point range of a few years back.
March 1997-December 1999 is NOT 4 years. And that's counting the March Japan launch and not from the US launch in the fall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Scally
"With over five million players in consumer homes, DVD video has clearly reached mainstream acceptance," said Emiel Petrone, chairman of the DVD Entertainment Group and executive vp, worldwide for Philips Entertainment Group during a press conference at last month's Consumer Electronics Show.
That's Jan 2000 meaning mass market acceptance XMas 1999.
However, at the current rate of HD-DVD, it's aiming to hit about 1/3 of the launch price by end of 2007 with HD-DVDlaunch date being March 2006. We will very likely see sub $200/$150 HD-DVD players by the holiday season this year.
And a paltry number of units shipped because of the format war.
Quote:
Such price drop could only be possible by fierce promotions due to the presence of it's competing format. As you have pointed out, that price does drop over time, but not at the rate we are seeing with HD-DVD hardwares.
If the HiDef format did followed the same steps as the DVD, than most of us should not have seen sub $200 HiDef players until late 2009...... but we're already there and it's only 2007.
And acceptance has been dismal in comparison. Meaning it has been a loser for consumers, CE manufactures and studios. And we'd hit the $200 price point the 3rd Xmas of the format following the DVD model. That would be XMas 2008.
Who cares that individual units might or might not be $200 THIS XMas if you have to buy two $200+ units when in 1998 you could get a single $400 (or less) unit that played EVERY DVD FROM EVERY STUDIO?!?
And a paltry number of units shipped because of the format war.
And acceptance has been dismal in comparison. Meaning it has been a loser for consumers, CE manufactures and studios. And we'd hit the $200 price point the 3rd Xmas of the format following the DVD model. That would be XMas 2008.
Who cares that individual units might or might not be $200 THIS XMas if you have to buy two $200+ units when in 1998 you could get a single $400 (or less) unit that played EVERY DVD FROM EVERY STUDIO?!?
Vinea
Hm... $1K+ price is mentioned as enthusiast hardware as their first DVD player, but not as an average DVD player price in 1997. But most video enthusiast were in fact true high end users at the time, most enthusiasts did pay $1k+ for their first DVD player to fuel the niche market.
As for as mass acceptance time.... well, I'll leave it to you to draw the line from the link blow:
First of all, I am not saying the source data is only valid source, but it's provided as a time table which can be monitored by monthly scale.
Hardware sales summary:
1997 - 300K (March Launch)
1998- 1000k
1999- 4000k
2000- 8500k (more than half sold from Sept. to Dec. and this is where I would draw as mass acceptance point, right around september 2000)
2001- 12700k
2002- 17000k
2003- 22000k
As for the price of the unit, I can only go by what I remembered, but other than the fire sales & holiday sales at end of 1999, sub $200 was not commonly found until summer of 2000. .... either way you look at it, the time frame shouldn't be off more than 6 months from my source to your source and the price drop is a lot stepper this time around with HD-DVD vs. the SD-DVD hardware.
Quote:
Who cares that individual units might or might not be $200 THIS XMas if you have to buy two $200+ units when in 1998 you could get a single $400 (or less) unit that played EVERY DVD FROM EVERY STUDIO?!?
Well... price is important, especially sub $200. The HD hardware price is starting to compete with SD hardware at sub $200 level. Lower priced HD-DVD player can serve as SD-DVD player with HD-DVD playback capability. Therefore, most pro-sumers would much prefer HD-DVD capable SD-DVD players when it comes time to replacing their SD-DVD players or as a new purchase. As you know, HD-DVD player is a great upconverting SD-DVD player and still have access to all of existing SD titles and newly released HD-DVD titles. Very small amount of movies are available in HiDef contents and only handful of very carefully picked older titles will get the HD treatment and re-released. Hence, SD-DVD movie discs will still play an important role in this transition. Even if certain HiDef title may get released only on the opposing HiDef format, it will still be available in SD-DVD.
As most do say, SD-DVD is good enough and owning HD player alone will not force every HD player owner to go replace their entire SD-DVD library with HD when available. It's the die hard enthusiasts wanting to replace all their existing library to HiDef movie, but this is a remote event for J6P/Pro-sumers.
I believe most J6P will be fine with SD-DVD version of new releases when not available in HiDef format in the transitional time of about next 18 months. But for the enthusiasts, they react as if it’s end of the world.
Hm... $1K+ price is mentioned as enthusiast hardware as their first DVD player, but not as an average DVD player price in 1997. But most video enthusiast were in fact true high end users at the time, most enthusiasts did pay $1k+ for their first DVD player to fuel the niche market.
As for as mass acceptance time.... well, I'll leave it to you to draw the line from the link blow:
First of all, I am not saying the source data is only valid source, but it's provided as a time table which can be monitored by monthly scale.
Hardware sales summary:
1997 - 300K (March Launch)
1998- 1000k
1999- 4000k
2000- 8500k (more than half sold from Sept. to Dec. and this is where I would draw as mass acceptance point, right around september 2000)
2001- 12700k
2002- 17000k
2003- 22000k
As for the price of the unit, I can only go by what I remembered, but other than the fire sales & holiday sales at end of 1999, sub $200 was not commonly found until summer of 2000. .... either way you look at it, the time frame shouldn't be off more than 6 months from my source to your source and the price drop is a lot stepper this time around with HD-DVD vs. the SD-DVD hardware.
Well... price is important, especially sub $200, which the HD hardware is now competing with SD hardware price range. Most pro-sumers would much prefer HD-DVD capable SD-DVD players when it comes time to replacing their SD-DVD players for any reason or for a new purchase. As you know, HD-DVD player is great upconverting SD-DVD player and users have all the choice of SD titles and also selective HD-DVD titles. Not all movies are available in HiDef contents for the time being anyway and SD-DVD movies still good enough for most.
It's the die hard enthusiasts wanting to replace all their existing library to their HiDef movie format of their choice, but this is a remote event for J6P/Pro-sumers.
If you want to compare, what are the monthly figures for HD-DVD hardware sales?
PS sorry, but that last section was very hard to make sense of due to unclear sentance structure.
I'm almost afraid to ask what comprises the rest of the stack...8-track? vacuum tubes?
Not that it's any of your beeswax, but LDs are still useful. There are still quite a few movies and TV shows that were once released on LD but not yet on DVD and probably not for a while. This may shock your puny mind, but a massive segment of the studios' back catalogs have yet to be released on DVD.
Well... price is important, especially sub $200. The HD hardware price is starting to compete with SD hardware at sub $200 level.
where are the SUB $200 HD-DVD players then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
Lower priced HD-DVD player can serve as SD-DVD player with HD-DVD playback capability. Therefore, most pro-sumers would much prefer HD-DVD capable SD-DVD players when it comes time to replacing their SD-DVD players or as a new purchase.
PRO-sumers? they would much prefer HD-DVD?? says who? over BD?? wheres the research? the proof to back up this statment? or is it just something you dreamt up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
As you know, HD-DVD player is a great upconverting SD-DVD player and still have access to all of existing SD titles and newly released HD-DVD titles.
but a BD player isn't? if thats what you are saying its FUD. a HD-DVD player may let you have access to HD-DVD content, but not BD content, how is this better? unless you side with one format, or one set of studios output, I don't see who its better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
Very small amount of movies are available in HiDef contents and only handful of very carefully picked older titles will get the HD treatment and re-released. Hence, SD-DVD movie discs will still play an important role in this transition. Even if certain HiDef title may get released only on the opposing HiDef format, it will still be available in SD-DVD.
how will SD-DVDs play a role in the TRANSITION TO Hi-def? SD-DVD being "good enough" will entrench the dominance of SD-DVD and so STIFLE the next gen format(s)
This is where a single format solution would be best, as every studio and maunfacturer and then the consumers the prosumers the professionals the enthusiasts AND Joe of 6 pack street would get behind it to help make it a success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
As most do say, SD-DVD is good enough and owning HD player alone will not force every HD player owner to go replace their entire SD-DVD library with HD when available. It's the die hard enthusiasts wanting to replace all their existing library to HiDef movie, but this is a remote event for J6P/Pro-sumers.
noone is asking anybody to throw out a perfectly good DVD player (note Kolchak still has a serviceable LD player) if the nut job early adopters want to do that then let them! HD-DVD and BD are both backwardly compatible with DVD and CD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
I believe most J6P will be fine with SD-DVD version of new releases when not available in HiDef format in the transitional time of about next 18 months. But for the enthusiasts, they react as if it?s end of the world.
18 months eh? as Vinea has pointed out, it took DVD from fall 1997 to xmas 1999 to reach an "acceptance" level, add 18 months to the inception date of the new formats and you are in the same ball park.
there is strong opinon that the Paramount deal is for 18 months, and similar opinion that Universal will go neutral early 2008.
Be interesting to see where we are in a year to 18 months
Is it just me or has murch been very quiet recently?
I really don't want to delay DVD purchases for another 18 months, nor do I want to purchase any more Standard-Definition discs; what's a consumer to do?
There is strong opinon that the Paramount deal is for 18 months, and similar opinion that Universal will go neutral early 2008.
Does anyone here watch the Universal HD channel? For the longest time they have been showing a Toshiba commercial for HD-DVD with some dude from the Sopranos at every commercial break. For quite a while this was the only channel I had ever seen it on and seeing as how it's Universal it made sense since they are exclusively HD-DVD. However, I noticed recently they are now airing a Blu-Ray commercial on the same channel and it's getting a lot of airtime. I did a double-take the first time it aired since they had been plugging the hell out of HD-DVD for so long. Coincidence or a sign they are indeed going format neutral?
it's still a disc that has the potential for flipping (a bad thing in the mind share of most people), doesn't have the art work as you say (like CDs and now DVDs that people are used to already) and would cost more as you are paying for the codec used on BOTH sides, plus a likely studio tax for pressing in both formats (all of which in the mind share of anyone means less value). its a crazy idea to begin with. Look at the extra costs of the HD-DVD/SD-DVD double sided discs.
Remember back in the early days of this thread when the advantage of HD-DVD was a going to be lower disc cost? Not only is there is no price advantage but one studio even proposed to put both formats on a single disc!
I think the real question for members of this forum is: If Apple officially supported one format over the other would you switch sides?
Hm... $1K+ price is mentioned as enthusiast hardware as their first DVD player, but not as an average DVD player price in 1997. But most video enthusiast were in fact true high end users at the time, most enthusiasts did pay $1k+ for their first DVD player to fuel the niche market.
And you STILL have no source for this assertion. It's bullshit.
Quote:
As for as mass acceptance time.... well, I'll leave it to you to draw the line from the link blow:
And it shows 5M users by end of 1999. Lets see...300K in 1997. How many HD players in 2006? 1M in 1998. How many HD players in 2007?
A lot less ignoring the PS3.
Quote:
As for the price of the unit, I can only go by what I remembered, but other than the fire sales & holiday sales at end of 1999, sub $200 was not commonly found until summer of 2000.
You evidently remember wrong. "Fire sale" on DVD players? Are you kidding?
Quote:
.... either way you look at it, the time frame shouldn't be off more than 6 months from my source to your source and the price drop is a lot stepper this time around with HD-DVD vs. the SD-DVD hardware.
You're kidding right? First it STILL isn't 6 months unless your math allows for 10 = 6. Second VCRs were also cheap in comparison to DVD players.
Quote:
Well... price is important, especially sub $200. The HD hardware price is starting to compete with SD hardware at sub $200 level.
Name one sub-$200 HD-DVD player. None.
Price is important...given you have to buy 2 players in 2007 when in 1998 you only had to buy ONE.
Quote:
Lower priced HD-DVD player can serve as SD-DVD player with HD-DVD playback capability. Therefore, most pro-sumers would much prefer HD-DVD capable SD-DVD players when it comes time to replacing their SD-DVD players or as a new purchase.
Prosumers? You mean all those prosumers looking forward to using the new HD-DVD HD cameras to go with their awesome HD-DVD burners in their PCs? Oh wait. There are few HD-DVD burners (but BR burners are under $400 now and there are new 6x speed ones too) and the HD cameras that records straight to optical are the upcoming Sony and the Hitachi BR HD cams.
I guess that extra density in Blu-Ray isn't so useless after all? 60 minutes at 1080 for a 8cm disc. Hey...that's about the same as a DV tape...only HD, random access and a flat disc.
Hell...can you even BUY a HD-DVD burner outside a new machine? Anyone seen the SD-H903A on the market?
Perhaps you mean Videophiles? Except that BR is outselling HD-DVD 2-1.
Most? You're full of shit. HD-DVD standalone players are less expensive but barely outsell the Blu-Ray standalones. And that's still ignoring all the PS3s.
Quote:
As you know, HD-DVD player is a great upconverting SD-DVD player and still have access to all of existing SD titles and newly released HD-DVD titles. Very small amount of movies are available in HiDef contents and only handful of very carefully picked older titles will get the HD treatment and re-released. Hence, SD-DVD movie discs will still play an important role in this transition. Even if certain HiDef title may get released only on the opposing HiDef format, it will still be available in SD-DVD.
Every videophile already had an upconverting DVD player. Barring those that had 480p projectors. This is in the category of who cares because videophiles are going to have both a HD-DVD player and a Blu-Ray player...both which can upconvert.
J6P doesn't know what an upconverting DVD player is but probably owns one anyway given the fairly cheap ones I saw at Circuit City and Best Buy.
Quote:
As most do say, SD-DVD is good enough and owning HD player alone will not force every HD player owner to go replace their entire SD-DVD library with HD when available. It's the die hard enthusiasts wanting to replace all their existing library to HiDef movie, but this is a remote event for J6P/Pro-sumers.
I believe most J6P will be fine with SD-DVD version of new releases when not available in HiDef format in the transitional time of about next 18 months. But for the enthusiasts, they react as if it?s end of the world.
If J6P doesn't buy into the new optical formats by Xmas 2008 there a change that it wont catch on in a big way. Won't that be dandy.
They aren't buying either format given there's what? 180K HD-DVD players in the US at the end of Q2 of 2007? Fewer Blu-Ray players. That's piss poor in comparison to DVD. The ONLY saving grace are the 120K HD-DVD XBox 360 drives and over 1M PS3 machines.
And yet HDTV sales are increasing rapidly. All these folks are ignoring the optical HD market because of the format war. Because its confusing, annoying and STUPID.
This war is stupid - as most wars are. But this one is bordering on the ridiculous if not insane.
Theres a tremendous assumption that I (J6P) will blindly buy whatever is seen to be the best thing - that's BS.
We aren't that stupid any more.
Jeez - c'mon. If this whole thing doesn't resolve to a universal format or ability to be able to buy a player to read both formats it's going to be a lemon.
The Studios are not stupid.
They've got the content.
Do they want to be ruled by someone else - forever ?
It's no wonder that there's some seat shifting going on.
And you STILL have no source for this assertion. It's bullshit.
And it shows 5M users by end of 1999. Lets see...300K in 1997. How many HD players in 2006? 1M in 1998. How many HD players in 2007?
A lot less ignoring the PS3.
You evidently remember wrong. "Fire sale" on DVD players? Are you kidding?
You're kidding right? First it STILL isn't 6 months unless your math allows for 10 = 6. Second VCRs were also cheap in comparison to DVD players.
Name one sub-$200 HD-DVD player. None.
Price is important...given you have to buy 2 players in 2007 when in 1998 you only had to buy ONE.
Prosumers? You mean all those prosumers looking forward to using the new HD-DVD HD cameras to go with their awesome HD-DVD burners in their PCs? Oh wait. There are few HD-DVD burners (but BR burners are under $400 now and there are new 6x speed ones too) and the HD cameras that records straight to optical are the upcoming Sony and the Hitachi BR HD cams.
I guess that extra density in Blu-Ray isn't so useless after all? 60 minutes at 1080 for a 8cm disc. Hey...that's about the same as a DV tape...only HD, random access and a flat disc.
Hell...can you even BUY a HD-DVD burner outside a new machine? Anyone seen the SD-H903A on the market?
Perhaps you mean Videophiles? Except that BR is outselling HD-DVD 2-1.
Most? You're full of shit. HD-DVD standalone players are less expensive but barely outsell the Blu-Ray standalones. And that's still ignoring all the PS3s.
Every videophile already had an upconverting DVD player. Barring those that had 480p projectors. This is in the category of who cares because videophiles are going to have both a HD-DVD player and a Blu-Ray player...both which can upconvert.
J6P doesn't know what an upconverting DVD player is but probably owns one anyway given the fairly cheap ones I saw at Circuit City and Best Buy.
If J6P doesn't buy into the new optical formats by Xmas 2008 there a change that it wont catch on in a big way. Won't that be dandy.
They aren't buying either format given there's what? 180K HD-DVD players in the US at the end of Q2 of 2007? Fewer Blu-Ray players. That's piss poor in comparison to DVD. The ONLY saving grace are the 120K HD-DVD XBox 360 drives and over 1M PS3 machines.
And yet HDTV sales are increasing rapidly. All these folks are ignoring the optical HD market because of the format war. Because its confusing, annoying and STUPID.
Vinea
WOW.... your own interpretation is interesting indeed, but why do I feel like I'm wasting time again. \
This war is stupid - as most wars are. But this one is bordering on the ridiculous if not insane.
Theres a tremendous assumption that I (J6P) will blindly buy whatever is seen to be the best thing - that's BS.
We aren't that stupid any more.
Jeez - c'mon. If this whole thing doesn't resolve to a universal format or ability to be able to buy a player to read both formats it's going to be a lemon.
The Studios are not stupid.
They've got the content.
Do they want to be ruled by someone else - forever ?
It's no wonder that there's some seat shifting going on.
bleh - flame on ~
You're probably not a typical J6P.....
Ones classified as J6P are convinced that all the BestBuy isle attendants are the experts in the field.
Does anyone here watch the Universal HD channel? For the longest time they have been showing a Toshiba commercial for HD-DVD with some dude from the Sopranos at every commercial break. For quite a while this was the only channel I had ever seen it on and seeing as how it's Universal it made sense since they are exclusively HD-DVD. However, I noticed recently they are now airing a Blu-Ray commercial on the same channel and it's getting a lot of airtime. I did a double-take the first time it aired since they had been plugging the hell out of HD-DVD for so long. Coincidence or a sign they are indeed going format neutral?
The problem here is that it's a paid commercial advertisement. The only thing you can infer from this switch is that Sony and/or other members of the BDA are willing to pay more for ad time on Universal HD than Toshiba is. Which makes sense. Even assuming Toshiba isn't losing money on its subsidized players (a massive assumption), they've got to be paying Universal a pretty penny to stay exclusive. I doubt they have much money left over for much else given HD DVD's anemic sales. That's why when it came time to lure Paramount to the dark side, it was Microsoft and its bottomless pockets that ponied up, rather than Toshiba itself. It's just strange and stupid that Toshiba doesn't see that Microsoft doesn't care about helping them win and in fact will delight in the demise of both HD disc formats. Apparently, Japanese philosopy isn't cynical enough to see that the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.
WOW.... your own interpretation is interesting indeed, but why do I feel like I'm wasting time again. \
I can squeeze one more game before bed time...
Interesting the way you make assertions and then when challanged, don't back them up. You impose a qualification on J6P, but I feel we should be asking what qualifies you to be a purported voice of authority to make assertions that should even be listened to?
I really don't want to delay DVD purchases for another 18 months, nor do I want to purchase any more Standard-Definition discs; what's a consumer to do?
Have you decided on a format that might best suit you?
If not then holding off could be a good option, assuming you want a cheap HD player that has the "winning" tech inside and don't want to be stung. You are going to have to wait a little while longer until things become clearer.
My own feeling is that BD is the better option with the extra players that the PS3 brings to the table and better studio support, but thats just me.
but in the mean time DVD really IS "good enough" can you hold off a few month on new releases till the price of DVDs drop? most new films look amazing on DVD as the encoding process has improved in the last 10 years. so don't hold off ALL new releases, if you REALLY want a movie get it, or rent it with the view to buying the next gen "winner" at a later date
The other consideration is that older films (unless they are UBER CLASSICS) won't get released all that quickly in Hi-Def so those old gems with a potential for low sales (like "popeye" that I HAD to get ) or black and whites or TV shows that were recorded in video (and wont benefit from the increased resolution) might be a good option to buy on SD-DVD now.
It all depends on your viewing habits, but consider it a good thing, prices will come down, just by waiting and in the mean time SD-DVD is pretty cheap.
Comments
No they shed money for the best player on the market that lasted halfway through the 2nd gen. The Sony DVP S7000. There were other mega-buck DVD players but I would guess most folks on AVS spending at that level got the Sony. The ones with deeper wallets got the Camelot Roundtable. My first DVD player was the Pioneer DV-414 purchased for $380 or so (slightly under $400 is all I really remember) in the summer of 1999...amusingly enough I think at a Circuit City on a whim since I had just moved but all my HT gear was still in transit.
The average sale price for DVD players in 1997 was only $591 declining to $422 in 1998.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...38/ai_54556603
This source lists the average DVD player price was $298 in 1999...a mere 2 years post launch. AVERAGE. Many players were $200 or less.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...39/ai_59426634
Not so much given the average sale price in 1997 was only $519. Only 300K units shipped. 1998 was better with 1M units but the ASP is down a hundred bucks too.
Please. DIVX was DEAD by June 1999 and barely lasted a year. LD was always niche and never a J6P format. VHS wasn't a disc format but the old incumbent like DVD today.
It isn't new given SACD and DVDA but it sure is stupid and NOT good for the consumer. Prices dropped ANYWAY and the historical numbers show that. Which you would know if you weren't pulling numbers out of your ass or actually owned a DVD player within 4 years of launch.
If there weren't a format war sales would be higher overall IMHO and pricing would be naturally falling anyway perhaps 6-12 months slower based on DVD's history but falling reasonably none the less. That feeling is shared.
We have a format war in XMas 2008 and both formats are likely doomed. Hollywood better get its act together.
Vinea
Thanks for backing up what I've been saying with some actual facts
If I remember correctly, when DVD was launched in March 1997 in the states, I believe the the first player was retailed at $699 or so. Of course, there were always a higher end options which even now cost over $3k if one cares to look in the enthusiast line, but most video enthusiasts at the time were true high end users. Therefore, many did buy $1k+ units. In the case of DVD, the entry level hardware did not drop more than half within the first 12 month product cycle. It took nearly 4 years before the price starts dropping below $200 which I believe the mass acceptance started between late summer/Fall of year 2000.
However, at the current rate of HD-DVD, it's aiming to hit about 1/3 of the launch price by end of 2007 with HD-DVDlaunch date being March 2006. We will very likely see sub $200/$150 HD-DVD players by the holiday season this year. Such price drop could only be possible by fierce promotions due to the presence of it's competing format. As you have pointed out, that price does drop over time, but not at the rate we are seeing with HD-DVD hardwares.
If the HiDef format did followed the same steps as the DVD, than most of us should not have seen sub $200 HiDef players until late 2009...... but we're already there and it's only 2007.
VHS dropped in price VERY slowly. why? because the durm head mechanism was costly complex bitch to get right AND get cheap, also video recorders only had one market.
CD player pricing also dropped fairly slowly, it was a new format with a new mechanism and the D/A chips were costly to begin with, but it dropped faster than VHS ever could, but initially it was ONLY a Playback device. Eventually it ended up in PCs
DVD Players were costly being a new platform, and the decoding chips were new and initially costly, but the price came down faster than CD (its the fastest growing format in the history of formats
HD-DVD being an extention of DVD has some cost savings built in, in terms of bringing it to market, so is initially cheaper than BD, if it had been the single format then it had the potential for great growth due to relatively cheap initial costs.
BD slightly more complex not being built on top of DVD, so a higher initial cost, but then it has extra space, and the costs will drop quickly too if critical mass can be reached.
VHS wasn't ever going to be in PCs or consoles
CDs took a while to get there, DVDs were almost instantly "needed" by computer users and once next gen recorders are included or avalible it will be further area for the drive to be sold into, helping acceptance and generating revenue.
Sonys PS1 with its CD rom drive was a game changer, yes I know there was the Atari Jaguar and the Amiga 32 (I think I still have mine somewhere!) the PS1 sold 100 million plus, thats a lot of drives on top of the millions of CD players sold already, pushing the cost of reproducing the drives themselves WAAY down, this gets repeated with DVD.
But at this point I think its RECORDERS we need in computers, Toshiba have a great plus with the ability to push HD-DVD in their laptop line, but theres no sign of a recordable drive (Is this part of the deal they have with the exclusive studios? - a question I don't think anyone has addressed here)
Sony have a great way of pushing BD in the PS3 there are different expectations with the PS3 as NO console* has had a recordable drive in it, but computer drives have been recordable for at least the last 6/7 years (from CD to DVD). so its slightly different from the Tosh laptops "needing" a recordable drive.
*Ignoring the PSX or whatever it was called in Japan (as it sold about 2 machines) if indeed it did have a recordable DVD drive, I can't remember.
Therefore, many did buy $1k+ units.
You have no facts to support your assertion that the average sale price was $1K+.
In the case of DVD, the entry level hardware did not drop more than half within the first 12 month product cycle. It took nearly 4 years before the price starts dropping below $200 which I believe the mass acceptance started between late summer/Fall of year 2000.
You can't click a link and read?
According to market research firm Intellect ASW, the average price of for a DVD player sold in November 1999 was $298, down 30% from an average price of $428 for players sold during November 1998. Players often sold for $200 or less during the 1999 holiday selling season, and very few models even came close to the hardware's $700 opening price point range of a few years back.
March 1997-December 1999 is NOT 4 years. And that's counting the March Japan launch and not from the US launch in the fall.
"With over five million players in consumer homes, DVD video has clearly reached mainstream acceptance," said Emiel Petrone, chairman of the DVD Entertainment Group and executive vp, worldwide for Philips Entertainment Group during a press conference at last month's Consumer Electronics Show.
That's Jan 2000 meaning mass market acceptance XMas 1999.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._59426634/pg_1
However, at the current rate of HD-DVD, it's aiming to hit about 1/3 of the launch price by end of 2007 with HD-DVDlaunch date being March 2006. We will very likely see sub $200/$150 HD-DVD players by the holiday season this year.
And a paltry number of units shipped because of the format war.
Such price drop could only be possible by fierce promotions due to the presence of it's competing format. As you have pointed out, that price does drop over time, but not at the rate we are seeing with HD-DVD hardwares.
If the HiDef format did followed the same steps as the DVD, than most of us should not have seen sub $200 HiDef players until late 2009...... but we're already there and it's only 2007.
And acceptance has been dismal in comparison. Meaning it has been a loser for consumers, CE manufactures and studios. And we'd hit the $200 price point the 3rd Xmas of the format following the DVD model. That would be XMas 2008.
Who cares that individual units might or might not be $200 THIS XMas if you have to buy two $200+ units when in 1998 you could get a single $400 (or less) unit that played EVERY DVD FROM EVERY STUDIO?!?
Vinea
You have no facts to support your assertion that the average sale price was $1K+.
You can't click a link and read?
March 1997-December 1999 is NOT 4 years. And that's counting the March Japan launch and not from the US launch in the fall.
That's Jan 2000 meaning mass market acceptance XMas 1999.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._59426634/pg_1
And a paltry number of units shipped because of the format war.
And acceptance has been dismal in comparison. Meaning it has been a loser for consumers, CE manufactures and studios. And we'd hit the $200 price point the 3rd Xmas of the format following the DVD model. That would be XMas 2008.
Who cares that individual units might or might not be $200 THIS XMas if you have to buy two $200+ units when in 1998 you could get a single $400 (or less) unit that played EVERY DVD FROM EVERY STUDIO?!?
Vinea
Hm... $1K+ price is mentioned as enthusiast hardware as their first DVD player, but not as an average DVD player price in 1997. But most video enthusiast were in fact true high end users at the time, most enthusiasts did pay $1k+ for their first DVD player to fuel the niche market.
As for as mass acceptance time.... well, I'll leave it to you to draw the line from the link blow:
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...advdsales.html
First of all, I am not saying the source data is only valid source, but it's provided as a time table which can be monitored by monthly scale.
Hardware sales summary:
1997 - 300K (March Launch)
1998- 1000k
1999- 4000k
2000- 8500k (more than half sold from Sept. to Dec. and this is where I would draw as mass acceptance point, right around september 2000)
2001- 12700k
2002- 17000k
2003- 22000k
As for the price of the unit, I can only go by what I remembered, but other than the fire sales & holiday sales at end of 1999, sub $200 was not commonly found until summer of 2000. .... either way you look at it, the time frame shouldn't be off more than 6 months from my source to your source and the price drop is a lot stepper this time around with HD-DVD vs. the SD-DVD hardware.
Who cares that individual units might or might not be $200 THIS XMas if you have to buy two $200+ units when in 1998 you could get a single $400 (or less) unit that played EVERY DVD FROM EVERY STUDIO?!?
Well... price is important, especially sub $200. The HD hardware price is starting to compete with SD hardware at sub $200 level. Lower priced HD-DVD player can serve as SD-DVD player with HD-DVD playback capability. Therefore, most pro-sumers would much prefer HD-DVD capable SD-DVD players when it comes time to replacing their SD-DVD players or as a new purchase. As you know, HD-DVD player is a great upconverting SD-DVD player and still have access to all of existing SD titles and newly released HD-DVD titles. Very small amount of movies are available in HiDef contents and only handful of very carefully picked older titles will get the HD treatment and re-released. Hence, SD-DVD movie discs will still play an important role in this transition. Even if certain HiDef title may get released only on the opposing HiDef format, it will still be available in SD-DVD.
As most do say, SD-DVD is good enough and owning HD player alone will not force every HD player owner to go replace their entire SD-DVD library with HD when available. It's the die hard enthusiasts wanting to replace all their existing library to HiDef movie, but this is a remote event for J6P/Pro-sumers.
I believe most J6P will be fine with SD-DVD version of new releases when not available in HiDef format in the transitional time of about next 18 months. But for the enthusiasts, they react as if it’s end of the world.
Hm... $1K+ price is mentioned as enthusiast hardware as their first DVD player, but not as an average DVD player price in 1997. But most video enthusiast were in fact true high end users at the time, most enthusiasts did pay $1k+ for their first DVD player to fuel the niche market.
As for as mass acceptance time.... well, I'll leave it to you to draw the line from the link blow:
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...advdsales.html
First of all, I am not saying the source data is only valid source, but it's provided as a time table which can be monitored by monthly scale.
Hardware sales summary:
1997 - 300K (March Launch)
1998- 1000k
1999- 4000k
2000- 8500k (more than half sold from Sept. to Dec. and this is where I would draw as mass acceptance point, right around september 2000)
2001- 12700k
2002- 17000k
2003- 22000k
As for the price of the unit, I can only go by what I remembered, but other than the fire sales & holiday sales at end of 1999, sub $200 was not commonly found until summer of 2000. .... either way you look at it, the time frame shouldn't be off more than 6 months from my source to your source and the price drop is a lot stepper this time around with HD-DVD vs. the SD-DVD hardware.
Well... price is important, especially sub $200, which the HD hardware is now competing with SD hardware price range. Most pro-sumers would much prefer HD-DVD capable SD-DVD players when it comes time to replacing their SD-DVD players for any reason or for a new purchase. As you know, HD-DVD player is great upconverting SD-DVD player and users have all the choice of SD titles and also selective HD-DVD titles. Not all movies are available in HiDef contents for the time being anyway and SD-DVD movies still good enough for most.
It's the die hard enthusiasts wanting to replace all their existing library to their HiDef movie format of their choice, but this is a remote event for J6P/Pro-sumers.
If you want to compare, what are the monthly figures for HD-DVD hardware sales?
PS sorry, but that last section was very hard to make sense of due to unclear sentance structure.
If you want to compare, what are the monthly figures for HD-DVD hardware sales?
PS sorry, but that last section was very hard to make sense of due to unclear sentance structure.
Sorry...
edited last paragraph after my daily dose of Venti Americano.
I'm almost afraid to ask what comprises the rest of the stack...8-track? vacuum tubes?
Not that it's any of your beeswax, but LDs are still useful. There are still quite a few movies and TV shows that were once released on LD but not yet on DVD and probably not for a while. This may shock your puny mind, but a massive segment of the studios' back catalogs have yet to be released on DVD.
Well... price is important, especially sub $200. The HD hardware price is starting to compete with SD hardware at sub $200 level.
where are the SUB $200 HD-DVD players then?
Lower priced HD-DVD player can serve as SD-DVD player with HD-DVD playback capability. Therefore, most pro-sumers would much prefer HD-DVD capable SD-DVD players when it comes time to replacing their SD-DVD players or as a new purchase.
PRO-sumers? they would much prefer HD-DVD?? says who? over BD?? wheres the research? the proof to back up this statment? or is it just something you dreamt up?
As you know, HD-DVD player is a great upconverting SD-DVD player and still have access to all of existing SD titles and newly released HD-DVD titles.
but a BD player isn't? if thats what you are saying its FUD. a HD-DVD player may let you have access to HD-DVD content, but not BD content, how is this better? unless you side with one format, or one set of studios output, I don't see who its better?
Very small amount of movies are available in HiDef contents and only handful of very carefully picked older titles will get the HD treatment and re-released. Hence, SD-DVD movie discs will still play an important role in this transition. Even if certain HiDef title may get released only on the opposing HiDef format, it will still be available in SD-DVD.
how will SD-DVDs play a role in the TRANSITION TO Hi-def? SD-DVD being "good enough" will entrench the dominance of SD-DVD and so STIFLE the next gen format(s)
This is where a single format solution would be best, as every studio and maunfacturer and then the consumers the prosumers the professionals the enthusiasts AND Joe of 6 pack street would get behind it to help make it a success.
As most do say, SD-DVD is good enough and owning HD player alone will not force every HD player owner to go replace their entire SD-DVD library with HD when available. It's the die hard enthusiasts wanting to replace all their existing library to HiDef movie, but this is a remote event for J6P/Pro-sumers.
noone is asking anybody to throw out a perfectly good DVD player (note Kolchak still has a serviceable LD player) if the nut job early adopters want to do that then let them!
I believe most J6P will be fine with SD-DVD version of new releases when not available in HiDef format in the transitional time of about next 18 months. But for the enthusiasts, they react as if it?s end of the world.
18 months eh? as Vinea has pointed out, it took DVD from fall 1997 to xmas 1999 to reach an "acceptance" level, add 18 months to the inception date of the new formats and you are in the same ball park.
there is strong opinon that the Paramount deal is for 18 months, and similar opinion that Universal will go neutral early 2008.
Be interesting to see where we are in a year to 18 months
Is it just me or has murch been very quiet recently?
]
or even better yet...
There is strong opinon that the Paramount deal is for 18 months, and similar opinion that Universal will go neutral early 2008.
Does anyone here watch the Universal HD channel? For the longest time they have been showing a Toshiba commercial for HD-DVD with some dude from the Sopranos at every commercial break. For quite a while this was the only channel I had ever seen it on and seeing as how it's Universal it made sense since they are exclusively HD-DVD. However, I noticed recently they are now airing a Blu-Ray commercial on the same channel and it's getting a lot of airtime. I did a double-take the first time it aired since they had been plugging the hell out of HD-DVD for so long. Coincidence or a sign they are indeed going format neutral?
it's still a disc that has the potential for flipping (a bad thing in the mind share of most people), doesn't have the art work as you say (like CDs and now DVDs that people are used to already) and would cost more as you are paying for the codec used on BOTH sides, plus a likely studio tax for pressing in both formats (all of which in the mind share of anyone means less value). its a crazy idea to begin with. Look at the extra costs of the HD-DVD/SD-DVD double sided discs.
Remember back in the early days of this thread when the advantage of HD-DVD was a going to be lower disc cost? Not only is there is no price advantage but one studio even proposed to put both formats on a single disc!
I think the real question for members of this forum is: If Apple officially supported one format over the other would you switch sides?
Hm... $1K+ price is mentioned as enthusiast hardware as their first DVD player, but not as an average DVD player price in 1997. But most video enthusiast were in fact true high end users at the time, most enthusiasts did pay $1k+ for their first DVD player to fuel the niche market.
And you STILL have no source for this assertion. It's bullshit.
As for as mass acceptance time.... well, I'll leave it to you to draw the line from the link blow:
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...advdsales.html
And it shows 5M users by end of 1999. Lets see...300K in 1997. How many HD players in 2006? 1M in 1998. How many HD players in 2007?
A lot less ignoring the PS3.
As for the price of the unit, I can only go by what I remembered, but other than the fire sales & holiday sales at end of 1999, sub $200 was not commonly found until summer of 2000.
You evidently remember wrong. "Fire sale" on DVD players? Are you kidding?
.... either way you look at it, the time frame shouldn't be off more than 6 months from my source to your source and the price drop is a lot stepper this time around with HD-DVD vs. the SD-DVD hardware.
You're kidding right? First it STILL isn't 6 months unless your math allows for 10 = 6. Second VCRs were also cheap in comparison to DVD players.
Well... price is important, especially sub $200. The HD hardware price is starting to compete with SD hardware at sub $200 level.
Name one sub-$200 HD-DVD player. None.
Price is important...given you have to buy 2 players in 2007 when in 1998 you only had to buy ONE.
Lower priced HD-DVD player can serve as SD-DVD player with HD-DVD playback capability. Therefore, most pro-sumers would much prefer HD-DVD capable SD-DVD players when it comes time to replacing their SD-DVD players or as a new purchase.
Prosumers? You mean all those prosumers looking forward to using the new HD-DVD HD cameras to go with their awesome HD-DVD burners in their PCs? Oh wait. There are few HD-DVD burners (but BR burners are under $400 now and there are new 6x speed ones too) and the HD cameras that records straight to optical are the upcoming Sony and the Hitachi BR HD cams.
I guess that extra density in Blu-Ray isn't so useless after all? 60 minutes at 1080 for a 8cm disc. Hey...that's about the same as a DV tape...only HD, random access and a flat disc.
Hell...can you even BUY a HD-DVD burner outside a new machine? Anyone seen the SD-H903A on the market?
Perhaps you mean Videophiles? Except that BR is outselling HD-DVD 2-1.
Most? You're full of shit. HD-DVD standalone players are less expensive but barely outsell the Blu-Ray standalones. And that's still ignoring all the PS3s.
As you know, HD-DVD player is a great upconverting SD-DVD player and still have access to all of existing SD titles and newly released HD-DVD titles. Very small amount of movies are available in HiDef contents and only handful of very carefully picked older titles will get the HD treatment and re-released. Hence, SD-DVD movie discs will still play an important role in this transition. Even if certain HiDef title may get released only on the opposing HiDef format, it will still be available in SD-DVD.
Every videophile already had an upconverting DVD player. Barring those that had 480p projectors. This is in the category of who cares because videophiles are going to have both a HD-DVD player and a Blu-Ray player...both which can upconvert.
J6P doesn't know what an upconverting DVD player is but probably owns one anyway given the fairly cheap ones I saw at Circuit City and Best Buy.
As most do say, SD-DVD is good enough and owning HD player alone will not force every HD player owner to go replace their entire SD-DVD library with HD when available. It's the die hard enthusiasts wanting to replace all their existing library to HiDef movie, but this is a remote event for J6P/Pro-sumers.
I believe most J6P will be fine with SD-DVD version of new releases when not available in HiDef format in the transitional time of about next 18 months. But for the enthusiasts, they react as if it?s end of the world.
If J6P doesn't buy into the new optical formats by Xmas 2008 there a change that it wont catch on in a big way. Won't that be dandy.
They aren't buying either format given there's what? 180K HD-DVD players in the US at the end of Q2 of 2007? Fewer Blu-Ray players. That's piss poor in comparison to DVD. The ONLY saving grace are the 120K HD-DVD XBox 360 drives and over 1M PS3 machines.
And yet HDTV sales are increasing rapidly. All these folks are ignoring the optical HD market because of the format war. Because its confusing, annoying and STUPID.
Vinea
For all intents and purposes I am.
This war is stupid - as most wars are. But this one is bordering on the ridiculous if not insane.
Theres a tremendous assumption that I (J6P) will blindly buy whatever is seen to be the best thing - that's BS.
We aren't that stupid any more.
Jeez - c'mon. If this whole thing doesn't resolve to a universal format or ability to be able to buy a player to read both formats it's going to be a lemon.
The Studios are not stupid.
They've got the content.
Do they want to be ruled by someone else - forever ?
It's no wonder that there's some seat shifting going on.
bleh - flame on ~
And you STILL have no source for this assertion. It's bullshit.
And it shows 5M users by end of 1999. Lets see...300K in 1997. How many HD players in 2006? 1M in 1998. How many HD players in 2007?
A lot less ignoring the PS3.
You evidently remember wrong. "Fire sale" on DVD players? Are you kidding?
You're kidding right? First it STILL isn't 6 months unless your math allows for 10 = 6. Second VCRs were also cheap in comparison to DVD players.
Name one sub-$200 HD-DVD player. None.
Price is important...given you have to buy 2 players in 2007 when in 1998 you only had to buy ONE.
Prosumers? You mean all those prosumers looking forward to using the new HD-DVD HD cameras to go with their awesome HD-DVD burners in their PCs? Oh wait. There are few HD-DVD burners (but BR burners are under $400 now and there are new 6x speed ones too) and the HD cameras that records straight to optical are the upcoming Sony and the Hitachi BR HD cams.
I guess that extra density in Blu-Ray isn't so useless after all? 60 minutes at 1080 for a 8cm disc. Hey...that's about the same as a DV tape...only HD, random access and a flat disc.
Hell...can you even BUY a HD-DVD burner outside a new machine? Anyone seen the SD-H903A on the market?
Perhaps you mean Videophiles? Except that BR is outselling HD-DVD 2-1.
Most? You're full of shit. HD-DVD standalone players are less expensive but barely outsell the Blu-Ray standalones. And that's still ignoring all the PS3s.
Every videophile already had an upconverting DVD player. Barring those that had 480p projectors. This is in the category of who cares because videophiles are going to have both a HD-DVD player and a Blu-Ray player...both which can upconvert.
J6P doesn't know what an upconverting DVD player is but probably owns one anyway given the fairly cheap ones I saw at Circuit City and Best Buy.
If J6P doesn't buy into the new optical formats by Xmas 2008 there a change that it wont catch on in a big way. Won't that be dandy.
They aren't buying either format given there's what? 180K HD-DVD players in the US at the end of Q2 of 2007? Fewer Blu-Ray players. That's piss poor in comparison to DVD. The ONLY saving grace are the 120K HD-DVD XBox 360 drives and over 1M PS3 machines.
And yet HDTV sales are increasing rapidly. All these folks are ignoring the optical HD market because of the format war. Because its confusing, annoying and STUPID.
Vinea
WOW.... your own interpretation is interesting indeed, but why do I feel like I'm wasting time again.
I can squeeze one more game before bed time...
Guys, I am J6P !
For all intents and purposes I am.
This war is stupid - as most wars are. But this one is bordering on the ridiculous if not insane.
Theres a tremendous assumption that I (J6P) will blindly buy whatever is seen to be the best thing - that's BS.
We aren't that stupid any more.
Jeez - c'mon. If this whole thing doesn't resolve to a universal format or ability to be able to buy a player to read both formats it's going to be a lemon.
The Studios are not stupid.
They've got the content.
Do they want to be ruled by someone else - forever ?
It's no wonder that there's some seat shifting going on.
bleh - flame on ~
You're probably not a typical J6P.....
Ones classified as J6P are convinced that all the BestBuy isle attendants are the experts in the field.
Anyway, you are onto a good start.....
Does anyone here watch the Universal HD channel? For the longest time they have been showing a Toshiba commercial for HD-DVD with some dude from the Sopranos at every commercial break. For quite a while this was the only channel I had ever seen it on and seeing as how it's Universal it made sense since they are exclusively HD-DVD. However, I noticed recently they are now airing a Blu-Ray commercial on the same channel and it's getting a lot of airtime. I did a double-take the first time it aired since they had been plugging the hell out of HD-DVD for so long. Coincidence or a sign they are indeed going format neutral?
The problem here is that it's a paid commercial advertisement. The only thing you can infer from this switch is that Sony and/or other members of the BDA are willing to pay more for ad time on Universal HD than Toshiba is. Which makes sense. Even assuming Toshiba isn't losing money on its subsidized players (a massive assumption), they've got to be paying Universal a pretty penny to stay exclusive. I doubt they have much money left over for much else given HD DVD's anemic sales. That's why when it came time to lure Paramount to the dark side, it was Microsoft and its bottomless pockets that ponied up, rather than Toshiba itself. It's just strange and stupid that Toshiba doesn't see that Microsoft doesn't care about helping them win and in fact will delight in the demise of both HD disc formats. Apparently, Japanese philosopy isn't cynical enough to see that the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.
WOW.... your own interpretation is interesting indeed, but why do I feel like I'm wasting time again.
I can squeeze one more game before bed time...
Interesting the way you make assertions and then when challanged, don't back them up. You impose a qualification on J6P, but I feel we should be asking what qualifies you to be a purported voice of authority to make assertions that should even be listened to?
I really don't want to delay DVD purchases for another 18 months, nor do I want to purchase any more Standard-Definition discs; what's a consumer to do?
Have you decided on a format that might best suit you?
If not then holding off could be a good option, assuming you want a cheap HD player that has the "winning" tech inside and don't want to be stung. You are going to have to wait a little while longer until things become clearer.
My own feeling is that BD is the better option with the extra players that the PS3 brings to the table and better studio support, but thats just me.
but in the mean time DVD really IS "good enough" can you hold off a few month on new releases till the price of DVDs drop? most new films look amazing on DVD as the encoding process has improved in the last 10 years. so don't hold off ALL new releases, if you REALLY want a movie get it, or rent it with the view to buying the next gen "winner" at a later date
The other consideration is that older films (unless they are UBER CLASSICS) won't get released all that quickly in Hi-Def so those old gems with a potential for low sales (like "popeye" that I HAD to get
It all depends on your viewing habits, but consider it a good thing, prices will come down, just by waiting and in the mean time SD-DVD is pretty cheap.