So I've decided I can tolerate the harm Greenpeace does, find a way to keep in living in spite of the pain they cause me... and still benefit from the results they bring
What if they decided to target you or your company? How would you feel then? It's not cool.
They are erratic extremists that need to be stopped.
One can only conclude that they are keeping the heat up because it's self-serving, not because it's at about finding the truth.
I think Greenpeace IS over-reacting to Apple and grandstanding, but I don't think I am also taking the word of an Apple fan web article on it either.
It is just sad to see how vitriolic the anti-Greenpeace attitude is in here and in America in general. Kind of like how trendy it was to be anti-French or anti-UN before the Iraq war. And now that we know the UN was correct on WMD's, and we know the administration wasn't exactly truthful either, we forget how easily we were persuaded to call people with honest doubts as unpatriotic.
The problem is in the mistaken sense of proportionality. GE dumps decades of toxins from electronics plants into the Hudson and kills who knows how much of the river's life and no one here says a word, but if a darn liberal shines a green light at an Apple Store, then they are the biggest frauds ever to walk the planet.
Please everyone put down your HotPockets and Mento with Diet Cokes and think about a sense of proportion.
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve? Yeah, we may have our sexy macs now, but give it 50 years and it'll be a different world and we need to do something now, either way, what harm does being more environmentally responsible do, none, but it inevitably cleans up the environment, which benefits every single one of us.
Greenpeace, you are true heros, much more than those who do fu*k all from their armchairs/computer desks.
It is their methods people dislike, not necessarily their causes. They act like loonies. They shoot themselves in the foot because it makes enemies of the people they are trying to persuade. That's just plain dumb on the face of it. They set impossibly high expectations and complain that what they want done doesn't get done fast enough.
My immediate reaction to them is to be against everything they're for against what would sometimes be my better judgment. That's just stupid on their part. Why don't they find someone in the industry who is actually committing crimes and go after them?
-Please make sure the equipment in which you design your website and host it are environmentally friendly.
-Please conserve energy and don't take your floodlights with you next time.
-Concerning your flyers. Please make sure you don't actually use paper, to use more paper (wether recycled or not) ultimately results in more trees being cut down, and more energy being lost to create the recycled fibers in the paper.
-Oh, and please make sure there are extra recyclable waste baskets around the Mac Expo, so the flyers can be thrown away correctly, and so they aren't thrown to the streets.
-Actually just make the paper bio-degradable, and could you put nutrients in it for the earth? Thanks.
-Also, make sure that the clothes you wear to the Mac Expo were not created in China in any harsh conditions. That little girl holding the keyboard, may have just made your jeans. You would be supporting that kind of behavior then.
-Please remember not to stop at any fast food chains on your way to the expo, all that grease can't be good for mother nature.
Ok, so obviously you can take anything too far. I understand that we need better practices in America, but ultimately it is easy to pick on any one for being environmentally irresponsible. I am sure any research firm could come up with thousands of violations Green Peace commits each year. Maybe GP could go clean a city block instead of picketing a friendly meeting of people who are excited about technology. After all, their cause would be better achieved this way.
It is just sad to see how vitriolic the anti-Greenpeace attitude is in here and in America in general. Kind of like how trendy it was to be anti-French or anti-UN before the Iraq war. And now that we know the UN was correct on WMD's, and we know the administration wasn't exactly truthful either, we forget how easily we were persuaded to call people with honest doubts as unpatriotic.
Your analogy is wrong - if it were right Greenpeace would be GWB, Apple would be Iraq, and the real polluters (the North Korea equivelant in the business world) get off without a mention because there is a hidden agenda.
Greenpeace is evil, through and through - and the publicity campaigns that they run are not even the biggest reason - the big reason is that they are anti-nuclear power.
Anti-nuclear protesters are de-facto murderers, because coal based power plants are built instead, and those power plants kill more people than nuclear reactors ever could.
What if they decided to target you or your company? How would you feel then? It's not cool.
They are erratic extremists that need to be stopped.
If they targetted my company, I'd see their evidence and if it was plausible, work to change business practices for the better. I would act like an adult and not lose my temper or my sense of respect and responsibility. I certainly wouldn't go on AppleInsider about them or hope that some of the fanboys here turned off Bill O'Reilley long enough to waste bandwidth over it.
They are not erratic, they don't need to be stopped, and they have negotiated for years with some corporations with sensible results that don't make the news or Apple discussion groups. They pick a high profile example once every 5 years and I think as long as they don't permenantly ruin a Genius Bar, Jobs will be no worse for wear.
Your analogy is wrong - if it were right Greenpeace would be GWB, Apple would be Iraq, and the real polluters (the North Korea equivelant in the business world) get off without a mention because there is a hidden agenda.
Greenpeace is evil, through and through - and the publicity campaigns that they run are not even the biggest reason - the big reason is that they are anti-nuclear power.
Anti-nuclear protesters are de-facto murderers, because coal based power plants are built instead, and those power plants kill more people than nuclear reactors ever could.
And cars kill more people than coal plants.
The fact that you say anyone who is anti-nuke is evil, shows you are an ideologue, not a rational person. I think that nuclear tech is good enough to stop meltdowns and France has a great history of safe use, BUT you still have to put the waste somewhere and France is running out of Polynesian Islands to do it. ALSO it takes many years of "clean" operation for a nuclear plant to even make up for the oil, coal and electrical energy it takes to actually BUILD a nuclear power plant, that like corn-based ethanol, the laws of physics tend to make it less than efficient. I do agree we need to use nuclear power though for other reasons, not the least of which is climatic.
-Please make sure the equipment in which you design your website and host it are environmentally friendly.
-Please conserve energy and don't take your floodlights with you next time.
-Concerning your flyers. Please make sure you don't actually use paper, to use more paper (wether recycled or not) ultimately results in more trees being cut down, and more energy being lost to create the recycled fibers in the paper.
-Oh, and please make sure there are extra recyclable waste baskets around the Mac Expo, so the flyers can be thrown away correctly, and so they aren't thrown to the streets.
-Actually just make the paper bio-degradable, and could you put nutrients in it for the earth? Thanks.
-Also, make sure that the clothes you wear to the Mac Expo were not created in China in any harsh conditions. That little girl holding the keyboard, may have just made your jeans. You would be supporting that kind of behavior then.
-Please remember not to stop at any fast food chains on your way to the expo, all that grease can't be good for mother nature.
Ok, so obviously you can take anything too far. I understand that we need better practices in America, but ultimately it is easy to pick on any one for being environmentally irresponsible. I am sure any research firm could come up with thousands of violations Green Peace commits each year. Maybe GP could go clean a city block instead of picketing a friendly meeting of people who are excited about technology. After all, their cause would be better achieved this way.
\tI most indefinitely agree with you and i think that is a very good "Quote". They need to not play favorites and focus on all companies to be fare. This is probably being financially backed by "Microsoft"... Yeah yeah just joking.
As an industrial designer I have a lot of respect for a company that apparently does solid ID research, designs products with tight tolerances, and properly networks its industrial designers, engineers and manufacturers in a way that doesn't ship the same (figurative) garbage the rest of the industry is shipping.
That said, since Apple is staffed with talented industrials designers, you can be absolutely sure they have heard the term "cradle to cradle design," and understand the life cycle of their products and materials. Products like the iPod are designed to last for a few years, possibly make a cameo on craigslist / ebay, spend several years in a desk drawer, and then end up in a landfill after 10-20 years. They don't come with easy access to parts that commonly fail (HDD / battery), they aren't upgradable, they don't come with a mail-back packaging for recycling, etc.
If Apple wanted to design more responsibly, they absolutely could. Their industrial and package design staff must know they're making decisions that favor obsolescence and landfills. However, they're probably doing this because executive management wants to cut manufacturing costs and encourage the install base to replace products, not upgrade products. When you have high ID costs, that sacrifice is understandable. Especially when you're a small fry compared to Sony or Dell.
I can't say GreenPeace doesn't have a point. They're certainly right to assume Apple's designers know better. Yet, I'm not sure this is the most effective way of initiating change. I would argue that it would be in GreenPeace's best interest if started involving itself within the ID community. As opposed to protesting they should start working WITH companies on how to implement responsible design decisions that can encourage profit.
Protesting is a fairly rudimentary tactic. It's hard to encourage a company to make smart decisions when you're rubbing that company's nose in its own shit. Eventually you'll be shut out and written off as a wacko... just as Apple is currently doing.
The fact that you say anyone who is anti-nuke is evil, shows you are an ideologue, not a rational person. I think that nuclear tech is good enough to stop meltdowns and France has a great history of safe use, BUT you still have to put the waste somewhere and France is running out of Polynesian Islands to do it. ALSO it takes many years of "clean" operation for a nuclear plant to even make up for the oil, coal and electrical energy it takes to actually BUILD a nuclear power plant, that like corn-based ethanol, the laws of physics tend to make it less than efficient. I do agree we need to use nuclear power though for other reasons, not the least of which is climatic.
You would have to have quite a few meltdowns to make Nuclear power kill as many people as coal. Just in Ontario (pop 12 million) coal based power plants are estimated to kill 700 people per year.
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve?
The number one problem with what Green Peace are doing are their methods of measuring who is good and who is bad. Their whole rating system is based on who promises to do what in a certain time frame. If GP agrees with their plan then they are free from agitation.
Apple does not tell GP what it will do or when. That leaves GP with the assumption Apple will make no positive changes in the time frame GP deems acceptable and declares Apple not eco-freindly.
Green Peace as an organization has no authoritative control, regulatory power, or legislative power to force anyone to do anything. Apple has to abide by the laws that have been passed by various environmental bodies to sell their products around the world. Apple likely has a plan for the future and just doe not want to tell GP what they are doing. Because they don't have to.
Products like the iPod are designed to last for a few years, possibly make a cameo on craigslist / ebay, spend several years in a desk drawer, and then end up in a landfill after 10-20 years. They don't come with easy access to parts that commonly fail (HDD / battery), they aren't upgradable, they don't come with a mail-back packaging for recycling, etc.
You say this like this is a standard practice. You make some good points but if anyone does what you suggest they are in the extreme minority.
Hundreds of millions more cell phones will end up in land fills than iPods.
Everything we buy has a planned obsolescence. I haven't bought anything that came with mail back packaging for recycling.
Look, if you're Greenpeace, it is perfectly rational to do what you do because everybody pays attention -- just see the number (and vehemence) of posts relative to the amount of time thread has been open!
Same phenomenon as how people do weird things -- remember that pervert they picked up from Thailand a few months ago and flew back to the US on business class, who ended up on (disgusting) Larry King -- to get noticed on TV.
"We love Apple. Apple knows more about "clean" design than anybody, right? So why do Macs, iPods, iBooks and the rest of their product range contain hazardous substances that other companies have agreed to abandon? A cutting edge company shouldn't be cutting lives short by exposing children in China and India to dangerous chemicals. That's why we Apple fans need to demand a new, cool product: a greener Apple."
I think Greenpeace IS over-reacting to Apple and grandstanding, but I don't think I am also taking the word of an Apple fan web article on it either.
In that article he points out the truth of Apple's environmental record.
Quote:
It is just sad to see how vitriolic the anti-Greenpeace attitude is in here and in America in general.
Well when one of GP's founders quits and says its been taken over by fanatic lunatics that says something.
Quote:
The problem is in the mistaken sense of proportionality. GE dumps decades of toxins from electronics plants into the Hudson and kills who knows how much of the river's life and no one here says a word, but if a darn liberal shines a green light at an Apple Store, then they are the biggest frauds ever to walk the planet.
That's true but GP has had little to do with stopping big corporations from polluting. Ultimately America as a whole, the Environmental Protection Agency, and congressional legislation are what have forced them to cleaned up their act.
Comments
So I've decided I can tolerate the harm Greenpeace does, find a way to keep in living in spite of the pain they cause me... and still benefit from the results they bring
What if they decided to target you or your company? How would you feel then? It's not cool.
They are erratic extremists that need to be stopped.
This is the crux of the whole thing. Daniel Eran has pretty much debunked Greenpeace here: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM...57E98CA39.html
One can only conclude that they are keeping the heat up because it's self-serving, not because it's at about finding the truth.
I think Greenpeace IS over-reacting to Apple and grandstanding, but I don't think I am also taking the word of an Apple fan web article on it either.
It is just sad to see how vitriolic the anti-Greenpeace attitude is in here and in America in general. Kind of like how trendy it was to be anti-French or anti-UN before the Iraq war. And now that we know the UN was correct on WMD's, and we know the administration wasn't exactly truthful either, we forget how easily we were persuaded to call people with honest doubts as unpatriotic.
The problem is in the mistaken sense of proportionality. GE dumps decades of toxins from electronics plants into the Hudson and kills who knows how much of the river's life and no one here says a word, but if a darn liberal shines a green light at an Apple Store, then they are the biggest frauds ever to walk the planet.
Please everyone put down your HotPockets and Mento with Diet Cokes and think about a sense of proportion.
Since when does apple make Pink keyboards?
-Owl
Around the time they started making pink computers.
How quickly we forget.
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve? Yeah, we may have our sexy macs now, but give it 50 years and it'll be a different world and we need to do something now, either way, what harm does being more environmentally responsible do, none, but it inevitably cleans up the environment, which benefits every single one of us.
Greenpeace, you are true heros, much more than those who do fu*k all from their armchairs/computer desks.
It is their methods people dislike, not necessarily their causes. They act like loonies. They shoot themselves in the foot because it makes enemies of the people they are trying to persuade. That's just plain dumb on the face of it. They set impossibly high expectations and complain that what they want done doesn't get done fast enough.
My immediate reaction to them is to be against everything they're for against what would sometimes be my better judgment. That's just stupid on their part. Why don't they find someone in the industry who is actually committing crimes and go after them?
-Please make sure the equipment in which you design your website and host it are environmentally friendly.
-Please conserve energy and don't take your floodlights with you next time.
-Concerning your flyers. Please make sure you don't actually use paper, to use more paper (wether recycled or not) ultimately results in more trees being cut down, and more energy being lost to create the recycled fibers in the paper.
-Oh, and please make sure there are extra recyclable waste baskets around the Mac Expo, so the flyers can be thrown away correctly, and so they aren't thrown to the streets.
-Actually just make the paper bio-degradable, and could you put nutrients in it for the earth? Thanks.
-Also, make sure that the clothes you wear to the Mac Expo were not created in China in any harsh conditions. That little girl holding the keyboard, may have just made your jeans. You would be supporting that kind of behavior then.
-Please remember not to stop at any fast food chains on your way to the expo, all that grease can't be good for mother nature.
Ok, so obviously you can take anything too far. I understand that we need better practices in America, but ultimately it is easy to pick on any one for being environmentally irresponsible. I am sure any research firm could come up with thousands of violations Green Peace commits each year. Maybe GP could go clean a city block instead of picketing a friendly meeting of people who are excited about technology. After all, their cause would be better achieved this way.
It is just sad to see how vitriolic the anti-Greenpeace attitude is in here and in America in general. Kind of like how trendy it was to be anti-French or anti-UN before the Iraq war. And now that we know the UN was correct on WMD's, and we know the administration wasn't exactly truthful either, we forget how easily we were persuaded to call people with honest doubts as unpatriotic.
Your analogy is wrong - if it were right Greenpeace would be GWB, Apple would be Iraq, and the real polluters (the North Korea equivelant in the business world) get off without a mention because there is a hidden agenda.
Greenpeace is evil, through and through - and the publicity campaigns that they run are not even the biggest reason - the big reason is that they are anti-nuclear power.
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns/nuclear
Anti-nuclear protesters are de-facto murderers, because coal based power plants are built instead, and those power plants kill more people than nuclear reactors ever could.
What if they decided to target you or your company? How would you feel then? It's not cool.
They are erratic extremists that need to be stopped.
If they targetted my company, I'd see their evidence and if it was plausible, work to change business practices for the better. I would act like an adult and not lose my temper or my sense of respect and responsibility. I certainly wouldn't go on AppleInsider about them or hope that some of the fanboys here turned off Bill O'Reilley long enough to waste bandwidth over it.
They are not erratic, they don't need to be stopped, and they have negotiated for years with some corporations with sensible results that don't make the news or Apple discussion groups. They pick a high profile example once every 5 years and I think as long as they don't permenantly ruin a Genius Bar, Jobs will be no worse for wear.
Your analogy is wrong - if it were right Greenpeace would be GWB, Apple would be Iraq, and the real polluters (the North Korea equivelant in the business world) get off without a mention because there is a hidden agenda.
Greenpeace is evil, through and through - and the publicity campaigns that they run are not even the biggest reason - the big reason is that they are anti-nuclear power.
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns/nuclear
Anti-nuclear protesters are de-facto murderers, because coal based power plants are built instead, and those power plants kill more people than nuclear reactors ever could.
And cars kill more people than coal plants.
The fact that you say anyone who is anti-nuke is evil, shows you are an ideologue, not a rational person. I think that nuclear tech is good enough to stop meltdowns and France has a great history of safe use, BUT you still have to put the waste somewhere and France is running out of Polynesian Islands to do it. ALSO it takes many years of "clean" operation for a nuclear plant to even make up for the oil, coal and electrical energy it takes to actually BUILD a nuclear power plant, that like corn-based ethanol, the laws of physics tend to make it less than efficient. I do agree we need to use nuclear power though for other reasons, not the least of which is climatic.
A few friendly warnings for GreenPeace:
-Please make sure the equipment in which you design your website and host it are environmentally friendly.
-Please conserve energy and don't take your floodlights with you next time.
-Concerning your flyers. Please make sure you don't actually use paper, to use more paper (wether recycled or not) ultimately results in more trees being cut down, and more energy being lost to create the recycled fibers in the paper.
-Oh, and please make sure there are extra recyclable waste baskets around the Mac Expo, so the flyers can be thrown away correctly, and so they aren't thrown to the streets.
-Actually just make the paper bio-degradable, and could you put nutrients in it for the earth? Thanks.
-Also, make sure that the clothes you wear to the Mac Expo were not created in China in any harsh conditions. That little girl holding the keyboard, may have just made your jeans. You would be supporting that kind of behavior then.
-Please remember not to stop at any fast food chains on your way to the expo, all that grease can't be good for mother nature.
Ok, so obviously you can take anything too far. I understand that we need better practices in America, but ultimately it is easy to pick on any one for being environmentally irresponsible. I am sure any research firm could come up with thousands of violations Green Peace commits each year. Maybe GP could go clean a city block instead of picketing a friendly meeting of people who are excited about technology. After all, their cause would be better achieved this way.
\tI most indefinitely agree with you and i think that is a very good "Quote". They need to not play favorites and focus on all companies to be fare. This is probably being financially backed by "Microsoft"... Yeah yeah just joking.
-Have a good night-
That said, since Apple is staffed with talented industrials designers, you can be absolutely sure they have heard the term "cradle to cradle design," and understand the life cycle of their products and materials. Products like the iPod are designed to last for a few years, possibly make a cameo on craigslist / ebay, spend several years in a desk drawer, and then end up in a landfill after 10-20 years. They don't come with easy access to parts that commonly fail (HDD / battery), they aren't upgradable, they don't come with a mail-back packaging for recycling, etc.
If Apple wanted to design more responsibly, they absolutely could. Their industrial and package design staff must know they're making decisions that favor obsolescence and landfills. However, they're probably doing this because executive management wants to cut manufacturing costs and encourage the install base to replace products, not upgrade products. When you have high ID costs, that sacrifice is understandable. Especially when you're a small fry compared to Sony or Dell.
I can't say GreenPeace doesn't have a point. They're certainly right to assume Apple's designers know better. Yet, I'm not sure this is the most effective way of initiating change. I would argue that it would be in GreenPeace's best interest if started involving itself within the ID community. As opposed to protesting they should start working WITH companies on how to implement responsible design decisions that can encourage profit.
Protesting is a fairly rudimentary tactic. It's hard to encourage a company to make smart decisions when you're rubbing that company's nose in its own shit. Eventually you'll be shut out and written off as a wacko... just as Apple is currently doing.
And cars kill more people than coal plants.
The fact that you say anyone who is anti-nuke is evil, shows you are an ideologue, not a rational person. I think that nuclear tech is good enough to stop meltdowns and France has a great history of safe use, BUT you still have to put the waste somewhere and France is running out of Polynesian Islands to do it. ALSO it takes many years of "clean" operation for a nuclear plant to even make up for the oil, coal and electrical energy it takes to actually BUILD a nuclear power plant, that like corn-based ethanol, the laws of physics tend to make it less than efficient. I do agree we need to use nuclear power though for other reasons, not the least of which is climatic.
You would have to have quite a few meltdowns to make Nuclear power kill as many people as coal. Just in Ontario (pop 12 million) coal based power plants are estimated to kill 700 people per year.
It just makes them look like kooks.
Why are you people so adverse to what green peace is trying to achieve?
The number one problem with what Green Peace are doing are their methods of measuring who is good and who is bad. Their whole rating system is based on who promises to do what in a certain time frame. If GP agrees with their plan then they are free from agitation.
Apple does not tell GP what it will do or when. That leaves GP with the assumption Apple will make no positive changes in the time frame GP deems acceptable and declares Apple not eco-freindly.
Green Peace as an organization has no authoritative control, regulatory power, or legislative power to force anyone to do anything. Apple has to abide by the laws that have been passed by various environmental bodies to sell their products around the world. Apple likely has a plan for the future and just doe not want to tell GP what they are doing. Because they don't have to.
I'm still curious what the most ecologically damaging mac is/was.
The "Big Mac".Man those things give me the squirts.As bad as it smells,it can't be good for the enviroment.
Products like the iPod are designed to last for a few years, possibly make a cameo on craigslist / ebay, spend several years in a desk drawer, and then end up in a landfill after 10-20 years. They don't come with easy access to parts that commonly fail (HDD / battery), they aren't upgradable, they don't come with a mail-back packaging for recycling, etc.
You say this like this is a standard practice. You make some good points but if anyone does what you suggest they are in the extreme minority.
Hundreds of millions more cell phones will end up in land fills than iPods.
Everything we buy has a planned obsolescence. I haven't bought anything that came with mail back packaging for recycling.
Same phenomenon as how people do weird things -- remember that pervert they picked up from Thailand a few months ago and flew back to the US on business class, who ended up on (disgusting) Larry King -- to get noticed on TV.
Ignore such idiots and they go away.
As taken from greenmyapple.com
"We love Apple. Apple knows more about "clean" design than anybody, right? So why do Macs, iPods, iBooks and the rest of their product range contain hazardous substances that other companies have agreed to abandon? A cutting edge company shouldn't be cutting lives short by exposing children in China and India to dangerous chemicals. That's why we Apple fans need to demand a new, cool product: a greener Apple."
No...its half truths and lies. Piss off.
Vinea
I think Greenpeace IS over-reacting to Apple and grandstanding, but I don't think I am also taking the word of an Apple fan web article on it either.
In that article he points out the truth of Apple's environmental record.
It is just sad to see how vitriolic the anti-Greenpeace attitude is in here and in America in general.
Well when one of GP's founders quits and says its been taken over by fanatic lunatics that says something.
The problem is in the mistaken sense of proportionality. GE dumps decades of toxins from electronics plants into the Hudson and kills who knows how much of the river's life and no one here says a word, but if a darn liberal shines a green light at an Apple Store, then they are the biggest frauds ever to walk the planet.
That's true but GP has had little to do with stopping big corporations from polluting. Ultimately America as a whole, the Environmental Protection Agency, and congressional legislation are what have forced them to cleaned up their act.