If people, christians and non-christians alike, read what Jesus said and did, they would know what He really stood for and not what the American church has painted christianity to look like.
There's a 2,000 year old copeout in the guise of a nice slow pitch lobbed toward the plate. Who's at bat here?
Why is that a cop-out? To say that people need to go to the source in order to understand the source? True christianity is following Christ, so to find out what that is supposed to look like, look at Christ. If you don't believe any of it, thats fine, but know that christianity is based on Jesus, and it is not driven by peoples skewed ideas of Jesus, but rather the man himself.
Why is that a cop-out? To say that people need to go to the source in order to understand the source? True christianity is following Christ, so to find out what that is supposed to look like, look at Christ. If you don't believe any of it, thats fine, but know that christianity is based on Jesus, and it is not driven by peoples skewed ideas of Jesus, but rather the man himself.
It is the same cope-out as your "True Christianity" cope-out response! Oh My God, now we have to draw a distinction between what.... normal Christianity .... and TRUE Christianity?
my point is that when people these days say they are Christians, a lot of times their lives don't reflect it in any way. So many people claim to be Christians, yet their lives don't reflect what Jesus taught in any way. If I called myself a sports fan, yet never watched sports, then I'm not really a sports fan. I can tell people I am, but I'm not doing anything that sports fans do. The same is with Christianity. My point: don't assume that all of the anti-whatevers and pro-whatevers are what Jesus taught, even though many people who say they are christians think so. If someone doesn't know what a sportsfan is, they shouldn't look at the sportsfan who doesn't act like a sportsfan as an example. That doesn't make sense. They should look at the real thing.
my point is that when people these days say they are Christians, a lot of times their lives don't reflect it in any way. So many people claim to be Christians, yet their lives don't reflect what Jesus taught in any way. That doesn't make sense. They should look at the real thing.
That's true Homestar, and to quote HL Mencken: The trouble with Communism is the Communists, just as the trouble with Christianity is the Christians. This is a well known idea. An an "old saw". The 'cope out' I mentioned was not a slur at you, but a suggestion that you might be better served to preach at your congregation with that type of logic rather than waste it on the "infidels". It is obvious that Christians need far more work than those like me who simply believe in one less god than you, and have no reason to believe you are right.
If Jesus came back to live on Earth today, we'd likely crucify him all over again.
I've got some planks of wood and a hammer if you see him.
Most people don't disagree with the larger overtones and the general message that Jesus, or the Jesus character, presents in the gospels. Peace, love, brotherhood and all that jazz. Can't argue with general goodness. I, for one, don't like the proselytizing. I have found happiness in a godless world, and I'm content to go on thinking this way.
Everyone's always ragging on the Jews for killing Christ. Well, Christians do.
Why don't they hate the Italians? I mean, it's not like the Romans didn't have a hand in the crucifixion.
As their descendants, why don't the Italians get it as bad as the Jews?
Just a question.
I know this means that Italian Christians should automatically be self-haters, but there's a quite delicious irony there...
On topic, I love this thread.
I am also quite, quite damned. I burn brimstone incense sticks. I have Charles Darwin's beard tattooed on my face. I hand out scientific tracts outside churches.
Why don't they thank the Jews? If not for them the evangelists wouldn't be able to annoy us so.
When I read some of the replies on to this thread ? I?m left wondering what the responce would be if the poster was muslim and advocating the koran and not Christian and advocating the Bible.
I?m sure some of the comments would be labeled as ?hate speech? and ?bigoted? right off the bat.
When I read some of the replies on to this thread – I’m left wondering what the responce would be if the poster was muslim and advocating the koran and not Christian and advocating the Bible.
I’m sure some of the comments would be labeled as ‘hate speech’ and ‘bigoted’ right off the bat.
Here's a tip: when you find yourself making up scenarios to get indignant about, it's time to go for a long walk in the woods.
Here's a tip: when you find yourself making up scenarios to get indignant about, it's time to go for a long walk in the woods.
What I hate are double standards. I don't care either way, as to what some say, if you want to know the truth. If someone wants to say XYZ about me faith, race, country...whatever, it does not bother me.
Also, I would not call my post 'indignant'. Did not get mad or anything, just made an observation.
Christian teaching says that no matter how hard you try, you cannot be good enough to enter Heaven.
Man's sinful nature cannot exist side by side with the One True God, who is holy and blameless and cannot coexist with sin. God did not wish to exile Mankind from His presence, so he created a way for Man's sinful nature to be forgiven, through the Messiah, whose death paid the price for the entry of sin into humanity through Adam.
To be perfectly fair, all Mankind will be judged on the basis of their acceptance of the Messiah.
Those whose histories are recorded in the Bible before the Incarnation will be judged on their belief in His coming and their acceptance of His victory over sin and death, even if they did not know the precise form it would take.
Those who lived with Him are judged by what they saw and believed. Those of us who have inherited the Testimonies of the Eyewitnesses will be judged, just like the Ancients, on our belief in His coming and our acceptance of His victory over sin and death.
While at first glance it may seem prudent to judge someone on the basis of their "goodness" or their contribution to humanity, when it is considered at length it is profoundly unfair. God can't justly 'grade on the curve' without violating all kinds of basic ideas of fairness. For a more thorough explanation of why, I suggest you read How Good Is Good Enough by Andy Stanley. It's only 96 pages.
Since some genius is bound to ask, I do not know exactly how the Lord will judge those who did not hear of the Gospel or the Messiah during their earthly lives. I only know that He is wise and just - and extraordinarily merciful - and will have a fair way of dealing with that situation. I trust Him with my life, and can testify to His wisdom, justice and mercy.
So to answer your question directly, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that a mass murderer - whose search for meaning in jail has lead him to faith in Jesus - might end up in heaven. And a brilliant thinker like Einstein or Gandhi, should they reject the life and message of Jesus, could end up in Hell.
Nothing says mercy like love me with the only other option being eternal suffering.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
I'm sure it hurts God more than it hurts us to be obliged to condemn us to burn and writhe and scream in agony and beg and beg and beg for forgiveness when it to too late and no forgiveness will ever come and we just keep burning forever and forever and forever.
You guys watch too much TV. Hell does not consist of a horned demon with a pitchfork prodding you in the butt while you stand naked waist high in flames.
Eternal suffering exists on Earth right now. I don't see either of you clamouring to go jump off a cliff.
(Not that some of us would complain...)
The choice BR, is to live by the rules God lays down, or live by your own rules in a separate place.
God won't make that choice for you, and you remain free to exist when you choose him or not.
Seriously, mothers of ungrateful sons show more mercy and compassion than the christian god. Battered wives show more mercy and unwavering love than the christian god. Frankly, the christian god is a selfish, childish asshole.
You guys watch too much TV. Hell does not consist of a horned demon with a pitchfork prodding you in the butt while you stand naked waist high in flames.
Eternal suffering exists on Earth right now. I don't see either of you clamouring to go jump off a cliff.
(Not that some of us would complain...)
The choice BR, is to live by the rules God lays down, or live by your own rules in a separate place.
God won't make that choice for you, and you remain free to exist when you choose him or not.
You can say that he sets down rules for you or that you have free will; you cannot say both exist. You can say that god is compassionate and merciful or you can say that not loving him leads to eternal suffering; you cannot say both exist. Your god is a terrible contradiction and if you jerks following him would stop throwing the first stone and instead start turning your damned cheeks this world would be a better place.
Comments
If people, christians and non-christians alike, read what Jesus said and did, they would know what He really stood for and not what the American church has painted christianity to look like.
There's a 2,000 year old copeout in the guise of a nice slow pitch lobbed toward the plate. Who's at bat here?
Paz
Why is that a cop-out? To say that people need to go to the source in order to understand the source? True christianity is following Christ, so to find out what that is supposed to look like, look at Christ. If you don't believe any of it, thats fine, but know that christianity is based on Jesus, and it is not driven by peoples skewed ideas of Jesus, but rather the man himself.
It is the same cope-out as your "True Christianity" cope-out response! Oh My God, now we have to draw a distinction between what.... normal Christianity .... and TRUE Christianity?
Are all the batters on the field gay?
Paz
my point is that when people these days say they are Christians, a lot of times their lives don't reflect it in any way. So many people claim to be Christians, yet their lives don't reflect what Jesus taught in any way. That doesn't make sense. They should look at the real thing.
That's true Homestar, and to quote HL Mencken: The trouble with Communism is the Communists, just as the trouble with Christianity is the Christians. This is a well known idea. An an "old saw". The 'cope out' I mentioned was not a slur at you, but a suggestion that you might be better served to preach at your congregation with that type of logic rather than waste it on the "infidels". It is obvious that Christians need far more work than those like me who simply believe in one less god than you, and have no reason to believe you are right.
Paz
If Jesus came back to live on Earth today, we'd likely crucify him all over again.
I've got some planks of wood and a hammer if you see him.
Most people don't disagree with the larger overtones and the general message that Jesus, or the Jesus character, presents in the gospels. Peace, love, brotherhood and all that jazz. Can't argue with general goodness. I, for one, don't like the proselytizing. I have found happiness in a godless world, and I'm content to go on thinking this way.
thats a lot of money. haha. you're honestly the first person I've heard who has said that one. I can't help you much there.
it wasnt a good bet, heres a better one
I bet you my entire life and eternity in damnation that Jesus and Paul are made up fictional characters.
Your call? can you raise?
What I don't get is this.
Everyone's always ragging on the Jews for killing Christ. Well, Christians do.
Why don't they hate the Italians? I mean, it's not like the Romans didn't have a hand in the crucifixion.
As their descendants, why don't the Italians get it as bad as the Jews?
Just a question.
I know this means that Italian Christians should automatically be self-haters, but there's a quite delicious irony there...
On topic, I love this thread.
I am also quite, quite damned. I burn brimstone incense sticks. I have Charles Darwin's beard tattooed on my face. I hand out scientific tracts outside churches.
Why don't they thank the Jews? If not for them the evangelists wouldn't be able to annoy us so.
I?m sure some of the comments would be labeled as ?hate speech? and ?bigoted? right off the bat.
When I read some of the replies on to this thread – I’m left wondering what the responce would be if the poster was muslim and advocating the koran and not Christian and advocating the Bible.
I’m sure some of the comments would be labeled as ‘hate speech’ and ‘bigoted’ right off the bat.
Here's a tip: when you find yourself making up scenarios to get indignant about, it's time to go for a long walk in the woods.
Here's a tip: when you find yourself making up scenarios to get indignant about, it's time to go for a long walk in the woods.
What I hate are double standards. I don't care either way, as to what some say, if you want to know the truth. If someone wants to say XYZ about me faith, race, country...whatever, it does not bother me.
Also, I would not call my post 'indignant'. Did not get mad or anything, just made an observation.
http://www.google.com/search?q=defin...en-US:official
Except it wouldn't happen - there is no Muslim equivalent to a frothing fundie Bible-basher shoving his foot in your door to 'save you from hell'.
Not on the internet anyway. You can't shoot anybody in an internet forum.
Man's sinful nature cannot exist side by side with the One True God, who is holy and blameless and cannot coexist with sin. God did not wish to exile Mankind from His presence, so he created a way for Man's sinful nature to be forgiven, through the Messiah, whose death paid the price for the entry of sin into humanity through Adam.
To be perfectly fair, all Mankind will be judged on the basis of their acceptance of the Messiah.
Those whose histories are recorded in the Bible before the Incarnation will be judged on their belief in His coming and their acceptance of His victory over sin and death, even if they did not know the precise form it would take.
Those who lived with Him are judged by what they saw and believed. Those of us who have inherited the Testimonies of the Eyewitnesses will be judged, just like the Ancients, on our belief in His coming and our acceptance of His victory over sin and death.
While at first glance it may seem prudent to judge someone on the basis of their "goodness" or their contribution to humanity, when it is considered at length it is profoundly unfair. God can't justly 'grade on the curve' without violating all kinds of basic ideas of fairness. For a more thorough explanation of why, I suggest you read How Good Is Good Enough by Andy Stanley. It's only 96 pages.
Since some genius is bound to ask, I do not know exactly how the Lord will judge those who did not hear of the Gospel or the Messiah during their earthly lives. I only know that He is wise and just - and extraordinarily merciful - and will have a fair way of dealing with that situation. I trust Him with my life, and can testify to His wisdom, justice and mercy.
So to answer your question directly, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that a mass murderer - whose search for meaning in jail has lead him to faith in Jesus - might end up in heaven. And a brilliant thinker like Einstein or Gandhi, should they reject the life and message of Jesus, could end up in Hell.
Nothing says mercy like love me with the only other option being eternal suffering.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
I'm sure it hurts God more than it hurts us to be obliged to condemn us to burn and writhe and scream in agony and beg and beg and beg for forgiveness when it to too late and no forgiveness will ever come and we just keep burning forever and forever and forever.
It's so, I dunno, balanced.
Eternal suffering exists on Earth right now. I don't see either of you clamouring to go jump off a cliff.
(Not that some of us would complain...)
The choice BR, is to live by the rules God lays down, or live by your own rules in a separate place.
God won't make that choice for you, and you remain free to exist when you choose him or not.
You guys watch too much TV. Hell does not consist of a horned demon with a pitchfork prodding you in the butt while you stand naked waist high in flames.
Eternal suffering exists on Earth right now. I don't see either of you clamouring to go jump off a cliff.
(Not that some of us would complain...)
The choice BR, is to live by the rules God lays down, or live by your own rules in a separate place.
God won't make that choice for you, and you remain free to exist when you choose him or not.
You can say that he sets down rules for you or that you have free will; you cannot say both exist. You can say that god is compassionate and merciful or you can say that not loving him leads to eternal suffering; you cannot say both exist. Your god is a terrible contradiction and if you jerks following him would stop throwing the first stone and instead start turning your damned cheeks this world would be a better place.