You know, I have been a huge follower and fanboy for Apple since my last job ( 2 yrs now ) and even bought my gf an apple laptop. But recently, trying out Vista, I have admit, they finally have done some things right.
In Windows XP there were quite a few things I had hoped they would work on. but they got it right this time around.
Todays world though, its probably better to have a coexisting dual boot of vista and leopard ( when it comes out ).
apple kinda has it easy when they control the hardware. in terms of user experience for noobs, yeah it makes sense. dont worry about the hardwrae or the software, we'll take care of it come along for the ride.
with windows, its been you choose the hardware and we'll try to make it work best for you.
an open ecosystem against a closed ecosystem. it all depends on how much freedom you want.
I follow your drift ... but ... are you are actually saying Microsoft usage equates to 'freedom'?
No they don't. It's 2-3 years late and most interesting features are deleted from it's initial feature list.
Agreed they were too ambitious with the product plan...being a poker player, sometimes its best to shut up and not reveal all your cards until you are certain that you have the nuts... microsoft should have done the same
Quote:
Originally Posted by gar
todays world was good already, Vista added nothing, and benefits no one but Microsoft.
im assuming your saying this after having tested Vista. end sarcasm. give the new OS a shot. im not say its amazing. just saying its much better then winxp. now to compare against leopard. we'll have to wait and see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gar
Huh, If that means it works without hours and hours of reinstalling drivers and third party software and frustration because of viruses and spyware,
its simple really. setup your users without admin priviledges. and install firefox with adblock plus. they will work just fine under that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gar
Does that mean it's easy for Apple to control everything? Hell no, in the contrary. It costs a lot of time and R&D to do this.
compare that to the amount of time and R&D it would cost to test it with thousands (maybe millions) combinations of hardware configurations... apple's products are great. if micorsoft offered hardware with their os preintsalled... i think the user experience would be greater
Quote:
Originally Posted by gar
Slamming a processor and a harddisk in an ugly box, preinstall Windows (don't care about good drivers) and sell it for $499, that's easy.
i almost read that as a description for the mac mini ... dude... the ones who slam in a processor hdd and sell it for $499 are companies that are not run by microsoft... blame them.. not microsoft...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gar
Stop complaining, the hardware is cheap.
the hardwrae is cheap.. because of the competition... theres' 90% of the world buying windows compatibility hardwrae.... if theres more demand out their.. theres going to be more supply... which will drive down the costs of the hardwrae... hopefully that happens to apple one day...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gar
I never met a PC owner who is happy with his computer. They brag about the specs and how cheap it was. They accept the flaws etc. and hide behind the fact that it was a cheap computer.
But I never see them smile just because they enjoy the fact they use a good tool.
well say hello to me... im happy with my vista pc and also happy with using my wife's apple laptop. now cheer up no need to be so pissed off ... relax drink some juice
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
I follow your drift ... but ... are you are actually saying Microsoft usage equates to 'freedom'?
well freedom in terms of the choicest i have ... the hardwrae i can intsall it on.. and the software i can install on it... i guess in terms of the selection .... but im not saying it equates to freedom freedom.... neither does apple provide that freedom...
linux has a long way to go b4 wide user adoption...
No they don't. It's 2-3 years late and most interesting features are deleted from it's initial feature list. todays world was good already, Vista added nothing, and benefits no one but Microsoft. Huh, If that means it works without hours and hours of reinstalling drivers and third party software and frustration because of viruses and spyware,
Stop complaining, the hardware is cheap.
I think most commercially sold computers have quick install discs that include the drivers. Often, the new version of Windows includes all the drivers that have been WHQL certified.
Vista is supposed to allow people to more easily use the limited user accounts, which should reduce the virus and spyware problem.
Agreed they were too ambitious with the product plan...being a poker player, sometimes its best to shut up and not reveal all your cards until you are certain that you have the nuts... microsoft should have done the same
im assuming your saying this after having tested Vista. end sarcasm. give the new OS a shot. im not say its amazing. just saying its much better then winxp. now to compare against leopard. we'll have to wait and see.
ETC ETC ETC
grrreat makes some absolutely great points. Apple should listen to people like him.
And, he is right on about the sarcasm and I-know-it-all-ness in some of the posts I see here.
I don't think the hard core Windows fans would own anything Apple.
Except for ipods. The majority of ipod users are windows users, even hardcore. However most of the hardcore windows users use a product like Winamp over iTunes to get around some of the DRM issues.
Nah. No OS gives anyone freedom. That's an illusion.
No matter what, you're stuck with the constraints of the OS. Open Source is even worse. Less programs. Less programs of value. Less hardware because of less drivers. Lower quality drivers. And lack of a finished product in any way.
I don't know how many of you have had a chance to try Vista... but I have for a few minutes (installed on Parallels on my iMac but I don't have time right now to play around with it other than just checking that it works...). My first two impressions:
1) I did a clean install, that is, booting from the Vista DVD. The first thing I get is a Window asking which of about 9 versions I want to install. Now, of course, we've all heard all the complaints about this already so I was forewarned, but I didn't think it would be this bad: It's just a window with the names of the different versions, some that are somewhat cryptic and no explanation or anything of what the differences are between them no guidance of which one to choose. --Nope, believe me, MS still doesn't "get" it.
2) They copied the Trash can!!! The freakin' Trash can!!!!!! I couldn't believe it. It still says "Recycle Bin" underneath, but the icon is a round wire basket just like the one sitting in my dock. Someone please explain this to me, because all I can think of is that there are some really insane people over at Microsoft that are obsessed with OS X. I can understand copying expose, and Dashboard and Spotlight- those are features, it makes sense to adopt them, they actually *do* things in fact it is expected that those kinds of ideas will spread around to all the platforms-- But the Trash can???!!! What do you think they are expecting copying it's icon is going to do??
...Now to install Vista using BootCamp so I can try out this Aero eye candy...
Todays world though, its probably better to have a coexisting dual boot of vista and leopard ( when it comes out ).
Why? Even Paul Thurrott, the biggest MS cheerleader out there (and someone who's had access to Vista before release) admitted that Vista is basically "warmed-over OS X Tiger". So, quality-wise, it'd be like having a dual-boot of Tiger and Leopard? Not much point in that, except to go, "Oh look at how good/bad Microsoft copy Apple!". \
As always, the only reason to dual boot into Windows is 'cuz there's a Windows-only app you desperately need access to. For that, XP would be the better choice, since it'll be awhile before everything works with Vista as it should. Our IT department isn't even going to switch folks over to Vista until one year and a service pack or two has gone by.
Agreed they were too ambitious with the product plan...being a poker player, sometimes its best to shut up and not reveal all your cards until you are certain that you have the nuts... microsoft should have done the same
This isn't the first time Microsoft uses these vaporware tactics against their opponent OS builders.
In 1991 Microsoft announced a completely new, never seen before operating system. It was called Cairo or something like that and after failing to produce a descent product, they borrowed some visualities of Cairo and came up with the DOS based Windows 95.
It killed IBMs OS2 and almost killed Apple in the process.
In 2001 they tried the same again by announcing Longhorn. Which should have been introduced in 2003. The result is Vista with a slightly better user experience compared to windows XP and a more secure foundation which has to prove itself in the time to come.
Quote:
im assuming your saying this after having tested Vista. end sarcasm. give the new OS a shot. im not say its amazing. just saying its much better then winxp. now to compare against leopard. we'll have to wait and see.
It's an improvement over XP, especially the added features already known from osX 10.3 and 10.4. But after the visual bling wears of, you're still stuck with Windows.
Quote:
compare that to the amount of time and R&D it would cost to test it with thousands (maybe millions) combinations of hardware configurations... apple's products are great. if micorsoft offered hardware with their os preintsalled... i think the user experience would be greater
Maybe but I doubt it.
The problem with this fantastic idea is that Microsoft can't do that, because the hardware would have been equally or higher priced than the Mac.
Microsoft has to be build up its PC market from scratch. (Zune, XBOX.)
Microsoft is rich and large but can't afford to sell their hardware products with a loss this time around and they can't compete with the Dells and HPs of this world.
And since the main reason why people ignore the Macintosh is price, Microsoft would have a big problem to sell their products.
Microsoft gets $30 -$100 for every PC sold. That's incredible.
If they want to compete with that they would be out of their minds.
Quote:
i almost read that as a description for the mac mini ... dude... the ones who slam in a processor hdd and sell it for $499 are companies that are not run by microsoft... blame them.. not microsoft...
at least the Mac mini works as it should. I blame Microsoft because they deliver the OS. No OS, no computer.
Quote:
the hardwrae is cheap.. because of the competition... theres' 90% of the world buying windows compatibility hardwrae.... if theres more demand out their.. theres going to be more supply... which will drive down the costs of the hardwrae... hopefully that happens to apple one day...
I hope not.
I prefer to pay a couple of 100 euro more for a premium product that doesn't look and feel like shit.
Quote:
well say hello to me... im happy with my vista pc and also happy with using my wife's apple laptop. now cheer up no need to be so pissed off ... relax drink some juice
well freedom in terms of the choicest i have ... the hardwrae i can intsall it on.. and the software i can install on it... i guess in terms of the selection .... but im not saying it equates to freedom freedom.... neither does apple provide that freedom...
linux has a long way to go b4 wide user adoption...
If Mac is the "feel good" cool system why do fanboys like yourself always seem angry?
Hmm, did I say the "cool" word again? I will talk with my psychologist about this issue.
Quote:
To address this one quote of yours, you do understand that the same hardware in the current intel macs is the exact same hardware put in pc's?
What part of exact same hardware do you mean? The crappy minitower ATX nondesign box or the Pentium D processor?
A $2,500 Dell has more in common with a Mac than with a $500 Dell, I agree.
Especially the price. Although it is designed better and has better components than it's $500 sibling, it's still a Dell: You're forced to buy it with a copy of Windows thanks to an exclusive OEM deal with Microsoft.
It was the $500 box I was talking about,though, not the high-end workstation, which is quit good, I suppose.
(never met one, everybody I know buys cheap sometimes nameless PC's, whine and complain about it and ask me to sort their problems out: "You're good with computers, right?"
"No, I don't understand computers at all, that's why I buy a Mac".
To make things more clear why sharing some components doesn't make a Mac and a PC the same computer, a nice car anology:
Chrysler sells cars in Europe with Mercedes Benz engines. (yeah, for a fraction of the price)
Does these very good engines (state of the art diesel technology) make these Chryslers good cars?
No, they suck. (Okay they don't suck if you go in a straight line, but in Europe we have corners and... well... I ones almost keeled from a dike with a Jeep Cherokee, because I didn't realize in time there was a difference between how a Landrover Discovery acts if you make a turn and said Jeep. (hey, they where both big 4x4s, with big diesel engines, leather interiors etc.)
Except for ipods. The majority of ipod users are windows users, even hardcore. However most of the hardcore windows users use a product like Winamp over iTunes to get around some of the DRM issues.
I'd think if they were Windows fanboys, they wouldn't be buying iPods. They tend to be the people that hate anything Apple.
As always, the only reason to dual boot into Windows is 'cuz there's a Windows-only app you desperately need access to.
.
Here are some reasons I had to do the past week that I don't consider "desperately need access to". MacTheRipper couldn't rip Open Season, DVDFab Decrypter was able to. Company email via web is more feature rich under Windows. The Squaw Valley ubercam looks better under Windows than Mac. It was very nice to be able to boot to Windows.
To make things more clear why sharing some components doesn't make a Mac and a PC the same computer, a nice car anology:
How about not? Only rarely have I found a vehicle analogy work in comparing computers.
Besides, badge engineering happens so much that there often several models and at least two levels of models based on the same platform. You also compared performance of products that didn't use the same components in the part that affect the comparison.
Very often, electronics can be rearranged to different configurations and form factors and the basic function is still the same. Pentium D has been knocked needlessly, they are inefficient but they really aren't bad chips.
Comments
You know, I have been a huge follower and fanboy for Apple since my last job ( 2 yrs now ) and even bought my gf an apple laptop. But recently, trying out Vista, I have admit, they finally have done some things right.
In Windows XP there were quite a few things I had hoped they would work on. but they got it right this time around.
Todays world though, its probably better to have a coexisting dual boot of vista and leopard ( when it comes out ).
apple kinda has it easy when they control the hardware. in terms of user experience for noobs, yeah it makes sense. dont worry about the hardwrae or the software, we'll take care of it come along for the ride.
with windows, its been you choose the hardware and we'll try to make it work best for you.
an open ecosystem against a closed ecosystem. it all depends on how much freedom you want.
I follow your drift ... but ... are you are actually saying Microsoft usage equates to 'freedom'?
Hold off on Vista until you buy a Mac.
he he ...
Several PC users I know couldn't wait ... already bought Macs
No they don't. It's 2-3 years late and most interesting features are deleted from it's initial feature list.
Agreed they were too ambitious with the product plan...being a poker player, sometimes its best to shut up and not reveal all your cards until you are certain that you have the nuts... microsoft should have done the same
todays world was good already, Vista added nothing, and benefits no one but Microsoft.
im assuming your saying this after having tested Vista. end sarcasm. give the new OS a shot. im not say its amazing. just saying its much better then winxp. now to compare against leopard. we'll have to wait and see.
Huh, If that means it works without hours and hours of reinstalling drivers and third party software and frustration because of viruses and spyware,
its simple really. setup your users without admin priviledges. and install firefox with adblock plus. they will work just fine under that.
Does that mean it's easy for Apple to control everything? Hell no, in the contrary. It costs a lot of time and R&D to do this.
compare that to the amount of time and R&D it would cost to test it with thousands (maybe millions) combinations of hardware configurations... apple's products are great. if micorsoft offered hardware with their os preintsalled... i think the user experience would be greater
Slamming a processor and a harddisk in an ugly box, preinstall Windows (don't care about good drivers) and sell it for $499, that's easy.
i almost read that as a description for the mac mini ... dude... the ones who slam in a processor hdd and sell it for $499 are companies that are not run by microsoft... blame them.. not microsoft...
Stop complaining, the hardware is cheap.
the hardwrae is cheap.. because of the competition... theres' 90% of the world buying windows compatibility hardwrae.... if theres more demand out their.. theres going to be more supply... which will drive down the costs of the hardwrae... hopefully that happens to apple one day...
I never met a PC owner who is happy with his computer. They brag about the specs and how cheap it was. They accept the flaws etc. and hide behind the fact that it was a cheap computer.
But I never see them smile just because they enjoy the fact they use a good tool.
well say hello to me... im happy with my vista pc and also happy with using my wife's apple laptop.
I follow your drift ... but ... are you are actually saying Microsoft usage equates to 'freedom'?
well freedom in terms of the choicest i have ... the hardwrae i can intsall it on.. and the software i can install on it... i guess in terms of the selection .... but im not saying it equates to freedom freedom.... neither does apple provide that freedom...
linux has a long way to go b4 wide user adoption...
No they don't. It's 2-3 years late and most interesting features are deleted from it's initial feature list. todays world was good already, Vista added nothing, and benefits no one but Microsoft. Huh, If that means it works without hours and hours of reinstalling drivers and third party software and frustration because of viruses and spyware,
Stop complaining, the hardware is cheap.
I think most commercially sold computers have quick install discs that include the drivers. Often, the new version of Windows includes all the drivers that have been WHQL certified.
Vista is supposed to allow people to more easily use the limited user accounts, which should reduce the virus and spyware problem.
I follow your drift ... but ... are you are actually saying Microsoft usage equates to 'freedom'?
And what OS gives you that?
Agreed they were too ambitious with the product plan...being a poker player, sometimes its best to shut up and not reveal all your cards until you are certain that you have the nuts... microsoft should have done the same
im assuming your saying this after having tested Vista. end sarcasm. give the new OS a shot. im not say its amazing. just saying its much better then winxp. now to compare against leopard. we'll have to wait and see.
ETC ETC ETC
grrreat makes some absolutely great points. Apple should listen to people like him.
And, he is right on about the sarcasm and I-know-it-all-ness in some of the posts I see here.
And what OS gives you that?
Darwin
I don't think the hard core Windows fans would own anything Apple.
Except for ipods. The majority of ipod users are windows users, even hardcore. However most of the hardcore windows users use a product like Winamp over iTunes to get around some of the DRM issues.
Darwin
Nah. No OS gives anyone freedom. That's an illusion.
No matter what, you're stuck with the constraints of the OS. Open Source is even worse. Less programs. Less programs of value. Less hardware because of less drivers. Lower quality drivers. And lack of a finished product in any way.
No one works on Darwin anyway.
1) I did a clean install, that is, booting from the Vista DVD. The first thing I get is a Window asking which of about 9 versions I want to install. Now, of course, we've all heard all the complaints about this already so I was forewarned, but I didn't think it would be this bad: It's just a window with the names of the different versions, some that are somewhat cryptic and no explanation or anything of what the differences are between them no guidance of which one to choose. --Nope, believe me, MS still doesn't "get" it.
2) They copied the Trash can!!! The freakin' Trash can!!!!!!
...Now to install Vista using BootCamp so I can try out this Aero eye candy...
but is there any chance that the incompatability issue is a
deliberate piece of M$ sabotage to try to get Vista fans away
from the iPod?
If I remember correctly, when the "iPod killer" came out,
the big joke was that iTunes was compatible with Vista but
that dropping thingy wasn't.
Could this be why the Zune guy got fired?
How could M$ respond so quickly with a patch if they weren't
aware of the problem in the first place? They're notorious for
leaving known security holes unpatched for weeks, and yet
they rush to cover a problem with a competitor's product?
Call me delusional, but this whole thing stinks of a ripe Zune-colored object...
Todays world though, its probably better to have a coexisting dual boot of vista and leopard ( when it comes out ).
Why? Even Paul Thurrott, the biggest MS cheerleader out there (and someone who's had access to Vista before release) admitted that Vista is basically "warmed-over OS X Tiger". So, quality-wise, it'd be like having a dual-boot of Tiger and Leopard? Not much point in that, except to go, "Oh look at how good/bad Microsoft copy Apple!".
As always, the only reason to dual boot into Windows is 'cuz there's a Windows-only app you desperately need access to. For that, XP would be the better choice, since it'll be awhile before everything works with Vista as it should. Our IT department isn't even going to switch folks over to Vista until one year and a service pack or two has gone by.
.
Agreed they were too ambitious with the product plan...being a poker player, sometimes its best to shut up and not reveal all your cards until you are certain that you have the nuts... microsoft should have done the same
This isn't the first time Microsoft uses these vaporware tactics against their opponent OS builders.
In 1991 Microsoft announced a completely new, never seen before operating system. It was called Cairo or something like that and after failing to produce a descent product, they borrowed some visualities of Cairo and came up with the DOS based Windows 95.
It killed IBMs OS2 and almost killed Apple in the process.
In 2001 they tried the same again by announcing Longhorn. Which should have been introduced in 2003. The result is Vista with a slightly better user experience compared to windows XP and a more secure foundation which has to prove itself in the time to come.
im assuming your saying this after having tested Vista. end sarcasm. give the new OS a shot. im not say its amazing. just saying its much better then winxp. now to compare against leopard. we'll have to wait and see.
It's an improvement over XP, especially the added features already known from osX 10.3 and 10.4. But after the visual bling wears of, you're still stuck with Windows.
compare that to the amount of time and R&D it would cost to test it with thousands (maybe millions) combinations of hardware configurations... apple's products are great. if micorsoft offered hardware with their os preintsalled... i think the user experience would be greater
Maybe but I doubt it.
The problem with this fantastic idea is that Microsoft can't do that, because the hardware would have been equally or higher priced than the Mac.
Microsoft has to be build up its PC market from scratch. (Zune, XBOX.)
Microsoft is rich and large but can't afford to sell their hardware products with a loss this time around and they can't compete with the Dells and HPs of this world.
And since the main reason why people ignore the Macintosh is price, Microsoft would have a big problem to sell their products.
Microsoft gets $30 -$100 for every PC sold. That's incredible.
If they want to compete with that they would be out of their minds.
i almost read that as a description for the mac mini ... dude... the ones who slam in a processor hdd and sell it for $499 are companies that are not run by microsoft... blame them.. not microsoft...
at least the Mac mini works as it should. I blame Microsoft because they deliver the OS. No OS, no computer.
the hardwrae is cheap.. because of the competition... theres' 90% of the world buying windows compatibility hardwrae.... if theres more demand out their.. theres going to be more supply... which will drive down the costs of the hardwrae... hopefully that happens to apple one day...
I hope not.
I prefer to pay a couple of 100 euro more for a premium product that doesn't look and feel like shit.
well say hello to me... im happy with my vista pc and also happy with using my wife's apple laptop.
well freedom in terms of the choicest i have ... the hardwrae i can intsall it on.. and the software i can install on it... i guess in terms of the selection .... but im not saying it equates to freedom freedom.... neither does apple provide that freedom...
linux has a long way to go b4 wide user adoption...
It's how you define freedom.
Linux isn't the answer for most users.
I prefer to pay a couple of 100 euro more for a premium product that doesn't look and feel like shit. It's how you define freedom.
Linux isn't the answer for most users.
If Mac is the "feel good" cool system why do fanboys like yourself always seem angry?
To address this one quote of yours, you do understand that the same hardware in the current intel macs is the exact same hardware put in pc's?
If Mac is the "feel good" cool system why do fanboys like yourself always seem angry?
Hmm, did I say the "cool" word again? I will talk with my psychologist about this issue.
To address this one quote of yours, you do understand that the same hardware in the current intel macs is the exact same hardware put in pc's?
What part of exact same hardware do you mean? The crappy minitower ATX nondesign box or the Pentium D processor?
A $2,500 Dell has more in common with a Mac than with a $500 Dell, I agree.
Especially the price. Although it is designed better and has better components than it's $500 sibling, it's still a Dell: You're forced to buy it with a copy of Windows thanks to an exclusive OEM deal with Microsoft.
It was the $500 box I was talking about,though, not the high-end workstation, which is quit good, I suppose.
(never met one, everybody I know buys cheap sometimes nameless PC's, whine and complain about it and ask me to sort their problems out: "You're good with computers, right?"
"No, I don't understand computers at all, that's why I buy a Mac".
To make things more clear why sharing some components doesn't make a Mac and a PC the same computer, a nice car anology:
Chrysler sells cars in Europe with Mercedes Benz engines. (yeah, for a fraction of the price)
Does these very good engines (state of the art diesel technology) make these Chryslers good cars?
No, they suck. (Okay they don't suck if you go in a straight line, but in Europe we have corners and... well... I ones almost keeled from a dike with a Jeep Cherokee, because I didn't realize in time there was a difference between how a Landrover Discovery acts if you make a turn and said Jeep. (hey, they where both big 4x4s, with big diesel engines, leather interiors etc.)
Except for ipods. The majority of ipod users are windows users, even hardcore. However most of the hardcore windows users use a product like Winamp over iTunes to get around some of the DRM issues.
I'd think if they were Windows fanboys, they wouldn't be buying iPods. They tend to be the people that hate anything Apple.
.
As always, the only reason to dual boot into Windows is 'cuz there's a Windows-only app you desperately need access to.
.
Here are some reasons I had to do the past week that I don't consider "desperately need access to". MacTheRipper couldn't rip Open Season, DVDFab Decrypter was able to. Company email via web is more feature rich under Windows. The Squaw Valley ubercam looks better under Windows than Mac. It was very nice to be able to boot to Windows.
To make things more clear why sharing some components doesn't make a Mac and a PC the same computer, a nice car anology:
How about not? Only rarely have I found a vehicle analogy work in comparing computers.
Besides, badge engineering happens so much that there often several models and at least two levels of models based on the same platform. You also compared performance of products that didn't use the same components in the part that affect the comparison.
Very often, electronics can be rearranged to different configurations and form factors and the basic function is still the same. Pentium D has been knocked needlessly, they are inefficient but they really aren't bad chips.