However, the type of touch screen used can not sense input from plastic etc, just fingers. That would make a 3rd party stylus complicated.
I'm talking about a third party device with a pad like the old Palm Pilot for stylus writing that connects in the iPhone's bottom port. Such a device would only need access to Inkwell that is already built into OS X.
Yes, those people are called mac fanatics, not general public. These people (if other than mac fanatics) that prefer ease of use, where are they?.. cause apple would like them to get off their butts and buy computers!!!. Microsoft still has over 80% worldwide marketshare
Mac is not significantly easier than Windows anymore. They've both come a long way.
Anyway - it's never just about ease of use. You buy something to do a job, and the price and functionality are part of your requirement.
Back to Physguy - I agree, perhaps Apple is creating a new kind of market. For example -it's no good keeping the existing desktop model while reducing the size of the device. The possibilities are wide open and different makers are approaching it slightly differently.
I've always understood that any calls I make to another T-Mobile customer with my phone are free for me. I've never thought that I can call someone with any other carrier (like my fiancee' with her Verizon phone) and get a free call.
I think that Wally guy was pulling our legs.. I cannot believe anyone in this modern age thinks mobile to mobile includes calls to cell on another network. I mean, even 10 year olds with cell phones get this. Wally is just bitching, leave him be.
I'm talking about a third party device with a pad like the old Palm Pilot for stylus writing that connects in the iPhone's bottom port. Such a device would only need access to Inkwell that is already built into OS X.
Scary. I think this would bulk up the iPhone too much and reduce usefulness.
Mac is not significantly easier than Windows anymore. They've both come a long way.
Anyway - it's never just about ease of use. You buy something to do a job, and the price and functionality are part of your requirement.
Back to Physguy - I agree, perhaps Apple is creating a new kind of market. For example -it's no good keeping the existing desktop model while reducing the size of the device. The possibilities are wide open and different makers are approaching it slightly differently.
Those are fighting words mate (hehe).. regardless, i was replying to post that thinks cause the iphone is easy to use, people will overpay for it. The history of mac computers points to different results. I have three mac computers (qualifying me as a mac fanatic i guess) but that's becuase i have the ability to pay for them. The same will go for iphones.. people are not gonna take the rent money and buy a cell phone cause it's easy to use and the population of people who have 500 disposable income to devote to one device is small indeed (else, everyone and their grandmother would have already owned a treo or a window mobile device or a blackberry or some similarly expensive device).
Those are fighting words mate (hehe).. regardless, i was replying to post that thinks cause the iphone is easy to use, people will overpay for it. The history of mac computers points to different results. I have three mac computers (qualifying me as a mac fanatic i guess) but that's becuase i have the ability to pay for them. The same will go for iphones.. people are not gonna take the rent money and buy a cell phone cause it's easy to use and the population of people who have 500 disposable income to devote to one device is small indeed (else, everyone and their grandmother would have already owned a treo or a window mobile device or a blackberry or some similarly expensive device).
The problem is your confusing % of market with # of customers. No one, including Apple, is claiming that this first iPhone will dominate the market. I believe they are looking at 1% of total market. This will not happen if the target market is 'just' the smart-phone market, which is my point. With this first iPhone Apple would be quite happy with the type of market you're assigning to 'Mac fanatics'.
Those are fighting words mate (hehe).. regardless, i was replying to post that thinks cause the iphone is easy to use, people will overpay for it. The history of mac computers points to different results.
Ahh.. I missed the general thread... working and glancing across to here does that. Yeah - I agree that ease of use has a $$$ value attached to it - and a $500 phone is more than that $$$ value IMO.
I'm actually surprised Apple called it the iPhone. I mean - video came out and they went to great pains to say "this is not the iPod Video! it's an iPod that happens to do video" (or similar). It strikes me that this is not an iPhone... "this is an iPod Video, that happens to also be a phone".
Anyway, Apple will release the phone at $500 - I hope they watch what happens and adjust accordingly. Apple has a history of not being able to keep up with demand, which either means
1) they're setting their price point perfectly - they can't produce any faster so might as well make the most they can from them.
2) they're simply not bothering to ramp their production up higher. Sure they'd make less per unit, but they'd sell more units.
#1 seems much safer. And if they're not sold out, Apple can drop the price $50, or $100, without too much trouble at all.
Scary. I think this would bulk up the iPhone too much and reduce usefulness.
This type of thing is nothing unusual there is a billion dollar industry around plugging devices into the iPod. Third party manufacturers are chomping at the bit to have access to the iPhone. Belkin already has an iPhone page: belkin.com/ipod/iphone/
Plug in devices do not necessarily add bulk, it simply requires good engineering.
Proxy controls are having to move and click a mouse that represents a pointer. The pointer is used to touch on screen buttons, sliders, and rubber bands. Multi-touch goes around this to allow your finger to directly touch and manipulate the buttons, sliders, or rubber bands.
Ok, so you're talking about indirect control. But the Treo doesn't work that way. A stylus is just as direct as using your finger, except that it gives more precision. You can also use your finger with the Treo if what you're doing isn't too small. I do it all the time.
Quote:
On the Blackberry and Motorola Q their is a scroll/click wheel that compliments this function.
As we said.
Quote:
Apple is pretty imaginative they may come up with something. Its possible you can touch a misspelled work in a paragraph. The word is highlighted and enlarged to ensure it is the word you intend, which will allow you to retype the word or move on to another. But certainly I don't know we will have to wait and see.
There have been questions about this, but no real answers so far. I won't be too optimistic. If it were real easy, I would think that he would have shown it. On stAge, he made a few typos, but corrected them immediately by backspacing.
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That is what I was saying earlier is that multi-touch could make using more complex apps easier. Its possible it just takes imagination.
But it can also make them more difficult, it it is the only method.
Quote:
No stylus on the iPhone screen itself. Which I think is fine as the QWERTY keyboard has proven far more popular than the stylus. But he did not definitively say there would be no third party add on of stylus input.
The keyboard on the Treo is bad, as are all of the really small ones. They could have made it much better by dishing the keys instead of making the tops round so that your finger or stylus slides off. But I use a program called Mobile Write which lets me write on the screen somewhat like Graffiti, except this is much better.
Quote:
I agree. I'm only saying there is a great deal of potential.
Potential always sound good. We have to hope he didn't mean it when he said that it wasn't a computer, but just a phone
That is the point of mobile to mobile and how works for every carrier.
He doesn't seem to understand that it's the way cell works, that both parties are charged for every call off everytime minutes unless you are both from the same carrier.
If you dropped Cingular, I would say the internet would continue to function through wifi, as it does when using Cingular. Hopefully we'll see some ways of changing providers before long, too.
I'm not sure. That's why I said that. You would think that it could work, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't. This is Apple after all.
Quote:
No, he didn't say definitively. However, the type of touch screen used can not sense input from plastic etc, just fingers. That would make a 3rd party stylus complicated.
I'm talking about a third party device with a pad like the old Palm Pilot for stylus writing that connects in the iPhone's bottom port. Such a device would only need access to Inkwell that is already built into OS X.
That's really going overboard! Who is going to want to carry that around?
The screen should enable that, like my Palm has done. They could have chosen a way to do that. The multi-touch tech they are using doesn't preclude it.
This type of thing is nothing unusual there is a billion dollar industry around plugging devices into the iPod. Third party manufacturers are chomping at the bit to have access to the iPhone. Belkin already has an iPhone page: belkin.com/ipod/iphone/
Plug in devices do not necessarily add bulk, it simply requires good engineering.
That looks to be a power adapter, which would be bulky. What does the part connected to the bottom do?
Its not that complicated a device. It can be made small enough and not add much more size. It could be made the same thickness and width only adding length. As I said above these add ons are nothing unusual for the iPod.
Apple could have included FM radio in the iPod. There is a healthy market for add on FM tuners for the iPod.
Quote:
That looks to be a power adapter, which would be bulky. What does the part connected to the bottom do?
That's adaptor is for connecting to a car. I used that picture as an example of the size of a device plugged in does not necessarily add a great deal of bulk.
Its not that complicated a device. It can be made small enough and not add much more size. It could be made the same thickness and width only adding length. As I said above these add ons are nothing unusual for the iPod.
Apple could have included FM radio in the iPod. There is a healthy market for add on FM tuners for the iPod.
That's adaptor is for connecting to a car. I used that picture as an example of the size of a device plugged in does not necessarily add a great deal of bulk.
Yes, there are devices that don't add much bulk. But not your device. It would consist of an adapter that plugs into the iPhone, with a cable that extends to another device at least a large as the iPhone, because it is that screen you are talking about with the electronics and battery. That would be like carrying two iPhones with cables. What's the point?
If Apple did it right (that is, for use with a stylus, in addition to a finger, like the Palm's) then you wouldn't need any of that bulk, or have to pay the extra $200, or more, for it.
No that's not what I'm talking about. You are thinking about how the current Palm works. I'm thinking of the old Palms where you did not write on the screen itself you wrote on the small pad at the bottom of the screen.
A device that is only that small pad and plugs into the bottom.
No that's not what I'm talking about. You are thinking about how the current Palm works. I'm thinking of the old Palms where you did not write on the screen itself you wrote on the small pad at the bottom of the screen.
A device that is only that small pad and plugs into the bottom.
The old Palms allowed you to do whatever you wanted, anywhere.
While it's true that the built-in Graffiti had those two partitions for writing, there were programs, just as there are now, that allowed you to write anywhere. The drawing programs always allowed one to draw over the entire screen.
It wasn't a limitation of the screen itself, so much as a way to let the OS know that you were either drawing letters or numbers, for ease of character recognition.
But, that was then. Why go over an old technology, when the new ones are far better?
And it still doesn't explain how a drawing, painting, or photo retouch program will work.
And it still doesn't explain how a drawing, painting, or photo retouch program will work.
The same way drawing, painting, photo retouch work on a Wacom Tablet.
Quote:
But, that was then. Why go over an old technology, when the new ones are far better?
My over all point is that the technology exists for writing or drawing with a stylus on the iPhone. If one prefers to use a stylus as their primary input device exactly the way the Palm works, then the iPhone certainly is not for them.
The same way drawing, painting, photo retouch work on a Wacom Tablet.
Teno, that's what this is all about. It won't!
Quote:
My over all point is that the technology exists for writing or drawing with a stylus on the iPhone. If one prefers to use a stylus as their primary input device exactly the way the Palm works, then the iPhone certainly is not for them.
It doesn't. Not if you have to add another device to do it.
I'm not saying that you would want to use a stylus all the time. I don't. I like the on screen keyboard. I dial on a keyboard like that on my Treo. The keys are large enough so that it doesn't need multi-touch for that. I usually play Solitare, or other gasmes that don't need too fine a pointer. I can often move around on websires with my finger, but I do have nails. I don't cut them that short.
We know that a simple piece of plastic won't work with the iPhone. I don't know why - does the touch-screen detect warmth? gsr? what...????
Anyway, I would guess that if you really wanted to use a stylus, there would be a way of making one work. It wouldn't be a 10 cent plastic stick - but a stylus connected/powered by the iPhone connector at the base of the phone (pretending to be a very very thin finger!!) and working ANYWHERE on the screen would be far more appealing to me than an add on wacom-like tablet.
That said... I don't know that I'd ever use one myself.
Comments
However, the type of touch screen used can not sense input from plastic etc, just fingers. That would make a 3rd party stylus complicated.
I'm talking about a third party device with a pad like the old Palm Pilot for stylus writing that connects in the iPhone's bottom port. Such a device would only need access to Inkwell that is already built into OS X.
Yes, those people are called mac fanatics, not general public. These people (if other than mac fanatics) that prefer ease of use, where are they?.. cause apple would like them to get off their butts and buy computers!!!. Microsoft still has over 80% worldwide marketshare
Mac is not significantly easier than Windows anymore. They've both come a long way.
Anyway - it's never just about ease of use. You buy something to do a job, and the price and functionality are part of your requirement.
Back to Physguy - I agree, perhaps Apple is creating a new kind of market. For example -it's no good keeping the existing desktop model while reducing the size of the device. The possibilities are wide open and different makers are approaching it slightly differently.
I've always understood that any calls I make to another T-Mobile customer with my phone are free for me. I've never thought that I can call someone with any other carrier (like my fiancee' with her Verizon phone) and get a free call.
I think that Wally guy was pulling our legs.. I cannot believe anyone in this modern age thinks mobile to mobile includes calls to cell on another network. I mean, even 10 year olds with cell phones get this. Wally is just bitching, leave him be.
I'm talking about a third party device with a pad like the old Palm Pilot for stylus writing that connects in the iPhone's bottom port. Such a device would only need access to Inkwell that is already built into OS X.
Scary. I think this would bulk up the iPhone too much and reduce usefulness.
Mac is not significantly easier than Windows anymore. They've both come a long way.
Anyway - it's never just about ease of use. You buy something to do a job, and the price and functionality are part of your requirement.
Back to Physguy - I agree, perhaps Apple is creating a new kind of market. For example -it's no good keeping the existing desktop model while reducing the size of the device. The possibilities are wide open and different makers are approaching it slightly differently.
Those are fighting words mate (hehe).. regardless, i was replying to post that thinks cause the iphone is easy to use, people will overpay for it. The history of mac computers points to different results. I have three mac computers (qualifying me as a mac fanatic i guess) but that's becuase i have the ability to pay for them. The same will go for iphones.. people are not gonna take the rent money and buy a cell phone cause it's easy to use and the population of people who have 500 disposable income to devote to one device is small indeed (else, everyone and their grandmother would have already owned a treo or a window mobile device or a blackberry or some similarly expensive device).
Those are fighting words mate (hehe).. regardless, i was replying to post that thinks cause the iphone is easy to use, people will overpay for it. The history of mac computers points to different results. I have three mac computers (qualifying me as a mac fanatic i guess) but that's becuase i have the ability to pay for them. The same will go for iphones.. people are not gonna take the rent money and buy a cell phone cause it's easy to use and the population of people who have 500 disposable income to devote to one device is small indeed (else, everyone and their grandmother would have already owned a treo or a window mobile device or a blackberry or some similarly expensive device).
The problem is your confusing % of market with # of customers. No one, including Apple, is claiming that this first iPhone will dominate the market. I believe they are looking at 1% of total market. This will not happen if the target market is 'just' the smart-phone market, which is my point. With this first iPhone Apple would be quite happy with the type of market you're assigning to 'Mac fanatics'.
Those are fighting words mate (hehe).. regardless, i was replying to post that thinks cause the iphone is easy to use, people will overpay for it. The history of mac computers points to different results.
Ahh.. I missed the general thread... working and glancing across to here does that. Yeah - I agree that ease of use has a $$$ value attached to it - and a $500 phone is more than that $$$ value IMO.
I'm actually surprised Apple called it the iPhone. I mean - video came out and they went to great pains to say "this is not the iPod Video! it's an iPod that happens to do video" (or similar). It strikes me that this is not an iPhone... "this is an iPod Video, that happens to also be a phone".
Anyway, Apple will release the phone at $500 - I hope they watch what happens and adjust accordingly. Apple has a history of not being able to keep up with demand, which either means
1) they're setting their price point perfectly - they can't produce any faster so might as well make the most they can from them.
2) they're simply not bothering to ramp their production up higher. Sure they'd make less per unit, but they'd sell more units.
#1 seems much safer. And if they're not sold out, Apple can drop the price $50, or $100, without too much trouble at all.
Scary. I think this would bulk up the iPhone too much and reduce usefulness.
This type of thing is nothing unusual there is a billion dollar industry around plugging devices into the iPod. Third party manufacturers are chomping at the bit to have access to the iPhone. Belkin already has an iPhone page: belkin.com/ipod/iphone/
Plug in devices do not necessarily add bulk, it simply requires good engineering.
Proxy controls are having to move and click a mouse that represents a pointer. The pointer is used to touch on screen buttons, sliders, and rubber bands. Multi-touch goes around this to allow your finger to directly touch and manipulate the buttons, sliders, or rubber bands.
Ok, so you're talking about indirect control. But the Treo doesn't work that way. A stylus is just as direct as using your finger, except that it gives more precision. You can also use your finger with the Treo if what you're doing isn't too small. I do it all the time.
On the Blackberry and Motorola Q their is a scroll/click wheel that compliments this function.
As we said.
Apple is pretty imaginative they may come up with something. Its possible you can touch a misspelled work in a paragraph. The word is highlighted and enlarged to ensure it is the word you intend, which will allow you to retype the word or move on to another. But certainly I don't know we will have to wait and see.
There have been questions about this, but no real answers so far. I won't be too optimistic. If it were real easy, I would think that he would have shown it. On stAge, he made a few typos, but corrected them immediately by backspacing.
That is what I was saying earlier is that multi-touch could make using more complex apps easier. Its possible it just takes imagination.
But it can also make them more difficult, it it is the only method.
No stylus on the iPhone screen itself. Which I think is fine as the QWERTY keyboard has proven far more popular than the stylus. But he did not definitively say there would be no third party add on of stylus input.
The keyboard on the Treo is bad, as are all of the really small ones. They could have made it much better by dishing the keys instead of making the tops round so that your finger or stylus slides off. But I use a program called Mobile Write which lets me write on the screen somewhat like Graffiti, except this is much better.
I agree. I'm only saying there is a great deal of potential.
Potential always sound good. We have to hope he didn't mean it when he said that it wasn't a computer, but just a phone
That is the point of mobile to mobile and how works for every carrier.
He doesn't seem to understand that it's the way cell works, that both parties are charged for every call off everytime minutes unless you are both from the same carrier.
If you dropped Cingular, I would say the internet would continue to function through wifi, as it does when using Cingular. Hopefully we'll see some ways of changing providers before long, too.
I'm not sure. That's why I said that. You would think that it could work, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't. This is Apple after all.
No, he didn't say definitively. However, the type of touch screen used can not sense input from plastic etc, just fingers. That would make a 3rd party stylus complicated.
Yes, I read something about that as well.
I'm talking about a third party device with a pad like the old Palm Pilot for stylus writing that connects in the iPhone's bottom port. Such a device would only need access to Inkwell that is already built into OS X.
That's really going overboard! Who is going to want to carry that around?
The screen should enable that, like my Palm has done. They could have chosen a way to do that. The multi-touch tech they are using doesn't preclude it.
This type of thing is nothing unusual there is a billion dollar industry around plugging devices into the iPod. Third party manufacturers are chomping at the bit to have access to the iPhone. Belkin already has an iPhone page: belkin.com/ipod/iphone/
Plug in devices do not necessarily add bulk, it simply requires good engineering.
That looks to be a power adapter, which would be bulky. What does the part connected to the bottom do?
Apple could have included FM radio in the iPod. There is a healthy market for add on FM tuners for the iPod.
That looks to be a power adapter, which would be bulky. What does the part connected to the bottom do?
That's adaptor is for connecting to a car. I used that picture as an example of the size of a device plugged in does not necessarily add a great deal of bulk.
Its not that complicated a device. It can be made small enough and not add much more size. It could be made the same thickness and width only adding length. As I said above these add ons are nothing unusual for the iPod.
Apple could have included FM radio in the iPod. There is a healthy market for add on FM tuners for the iPod.
That's adaptor is for connecting to a car. I used that picture as an example of the size of a device plugged in does not necessarily add a great deal of bulk.
Yes, there are devices that don't add much bulk. But not your device. It would consist of an adapter that plugs into the iPhone, with a cable that extends to another device at least a large as the iPhone, because it is that screen you are talking about with the electronics and battery. That would be like carrying two iPhones with cables. What's the point?
If Apple did it right (that is, for use with a stylus, in addition to a finger, like the Palm's) then you wouldn't need any of that bulk, or have to pay the extra $200, or more, for it.
A device that is only that small pad and plugs into the bottom.
No that's not what I'm talking about. You are thinking about how the current Palm works. I'm thinking of the old Palms where you did not write on the screen itself you wrote on the small pad at the bottom of the screen.
A device that is only that small pad and plugs into the bottom.
The old Palms allowed you to do whatever you wanted, anywhere.
While it's true that the built-in Graffiti had those two partitions for writing, there were programs, just as there are now, that allowed you to write anywhere. The drawing programs always allowed one to draw over the entire screen.
It wasn't a limitation of the screen itself, so much as a way to let the OS know that you were either drawing letters or numbers, for ease of character recognition.
But, that was then. Why go over an old technology, when the new ones are far better?
And it still doesn't explain how a drawing, painting, or photo retouch program will work.
And it still doesn't explain how a drawing, painting, or photo retouch program will work.
The same way drawing, painting, photo retouch work on a Wacom Tablet.
But, that was then. Why go over an old technology, when the new ones are far better?
My over all point is that the technology exists for writing or drawing with a stylus on the iPhone. If one prefers to use a stylus as their primary input device exactly the way the Palm works, then the iPhone certainly is not for them.
The same way drawing, painting, photo retouch work on a Wacom Tablet.
Teno, that's what this is all about. It won't!
My over all point is that the technology exists for writing or drawing with a stylus on the iPhone. If one prefers to use a stylus as their primary input device exactly the way the Palm works, then the iPhone certainly is not for them.
It doesn't. Not if you have to add another device to do it.
I'm not saying that you would want to use a stylus all the time. I don't. I like the on screen keyboard. I dial on a keyboard like that on my Treo. The keys are large enough so that it doesn't need multi-touch for that. I usually play Solitare, or other gasmes that don't need too fine a pointer. I can often move around on websires with my finger, but I do have nails. I don't cut them that short.
But when it's needed, it's really needed.
Anyway, I would guess that if you really wanted to use a stylus, there would be a way of making one work. It wouldn't be a 10 cent plastic stick - but a stylus connected/powered by the iPhone connector at the base of the phone (pretending to be a very very thin finger!!) and working ANYWHERE on the screen would be far more appealing to me than an add on wacom-like tablet.
That said... I don't know that I'd ever use one myself.