> "There are far too many people that say "how much is a tower?" 2.5k. "no thanks".
And if one were to interject, "But that is between $1,000 and $1500 cheaper than a similarly configured PC," would it still be, "no thanks."?
Yeah, it'd still probably be "no thanks", sad to say.
Because as we all know, you can build a pretty killer EXPANDABLE Core 2 Duo-Vista PC desktop for $1000-1500 these days. A lot of people, even in a business or authoring environment, do not need a full-on $2500 Mac Pro system, however awesome a value it may or may not be. It is simply overkill for their needs.
Let's put it this way- I work at a multibillion dollar international corporation. We're going to be buying some media boxes for authoring purposes. We're going the PC route (ugh) and will be getting some nice Core 2 Duo desktops for roughly $1400 a pop.
If Apple had had an expandable desktop in the that price range, we might have gone with them, because we could've run the software we wanted to author on (Captivate) on the Windows side, and also have used Final Cut Pro on the Mac side, something that's attractive but not mandatory for what we do. But that ability simply isn't worth the $1100 surcharge (actually more like $1200-1300, since we'd have to get Windows also).
So Apple misses out, and I have to use a less good comp because of it. Yay.
TBaggins, I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people in that position. It's no wonder Vista is going to get away with murder in sales. It's unfortunate that m$ can throw their weight that way. Marketing tactics, pulling XP off shelves, offering free upgrades 2-5 months before it shipped, taking advantage of every x86 computer in the world being able to run it. Talk crap about m$ all you want (i do), but they definitely know how to flex their muscles to force sales.
You sure can!! Assuming you want your display on the LEFT side and just want it to be a 2nd tier display, unless you mirror.
I have mine on the right and it's neither second tier or a mirror. Seems to work just fine. You do know you can move the screens in the preference pane don't you? And indicate which is the primary display?
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Originally Posted by emig647
BTW... I'm glad you have your pride on the later sentence. But the question arises, is apple doing it for pride? Or is apple doing it for other reasons
Nothing to do with pride for me. I just don't think promoting religion is a good idea.
And what does it matter if Apple aren't doing what you want for whatever reason they fancy - it's their business, not yours. One of my clients is a bike company who comes out with completely whacky designs every now and again simply because they can and they like doing it. For instance, they're just about to do a limited edition lugged steel frame. NOBODY builds bikes like that anymore but the owner just fancied one for the hell of it so they're building a whole run. They don't make the most common kinds of bikes and nobody really expects them to either. Why people can't get their heads around Apple doing exactly the same puzzles me immensely? You know, Apple - the company that wants us to 'Think Different'.
42 pages of babies crying that they can't get their XMac isn't going to convince Apple or me.
1) Resonably-priced minitower (sorry Apple Apologista Squad?, you may not want one, but a significant number of potential Apple Switchers do.)
2) Subnotebook! I wouldn't want one, but this is a hot and growing segment.
3) $999 MacBook (with the option to upgrade graphics for $$$).
4) Better/more flexible BTO option in the Apple Store in general.
5) Free or cheap Leopard upgrade voucher for all Macs bought between now and Leopard's release (thank you to whomever first mentioned this, brilliant idea).
I'm an old school Mac user (used them at school/work since '86, owned since '92) and I want a minitower. As it stands Apple derives almost no benefit from my existence. I've owned a lot of Macs over the years but Apple only got my money twice. The rest of the time I've purchased used desktops or towers. I'm a software professional and I can afford to buy new, but there are only two Macs that allow me to choose a display upgrade cycle independently of the computer upgrade, only one Mac with room for more than one HD, only one with more than two RAM slots (so you can add RAM without throwing some away), only one that allows me to swap the video card, optical drive, etc. The Mac Pro contains server components not appropriate for most users and priced far above the tower offerings available in the PC world.
Regarding notebooks, Apple still seems to be stuck in a mindset that budget users have notebooks with small screens and power users have large screens. I think Sony, HP, Toshiba, et al have proof that Apple should have a 15" MacBook and compact, ultra light MacBook Pro in the lineup.
Apple can retort that the 12" PowerBook and 14" iBook were sales failures, but I'll point to the fact that the 12" PowerBook was seriously crippled, a product most customers could not distinguish from an iBook except by the aluminum skin and 50% increase in price. The 14" iBook was too heavy (significantly more than the 15" PowerBook), had the same low resolution display as the 12" model and needlessly upgraded components which drove the price too high.
I also like the idea of a free Leopard voucher, but Vista shouldn't be the incentive for it. Instead Apple should establish a standard policy that buyers will receive a free OS upgrade with a computer when purchased within a reasonable time period before a major release. Then, as a major release is approaching, advertise the free upgrade date. Stop making potential buyers guess, stop driving us to rumor sites, give us a firm date and stick to it even if the OS itself arrives unexpectedly early or late.
Those who need to make a purchase before that date may whine about not getting a free upgrade, but if they really need the computer, they will lose far more than $129 in lost productivity by waiting.
TBaggins, I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people in that position. It's no wonder Vista is going to get away with murder in sales. It's unfortunate that m$ can throw their weight that way. Marketing tactics, pulling XP off shelves, offering free upgrades 2-5 months before it shipped, taking advantage of every x86 computer in the world being able to run it. Talk crap about m$ all you want (i do), but they definitely know how to flex their muscles to force sales.
Its not just MS. Its Apple not recognizing a hole in their product line-up, one that, yeah, would do them a lot of good to fill. No one is asking them to be all things to all people. But an expandable midrange desktop... that's a pretty basic/core need. Maybe not among current Mac users (though I could be wrong about that), but among those who'd like to be.
I guess they just didn't want to sell us some comps.
Because as we all know, you can build a pretty killer EXPANDABLE Core 2 Duo-Vista PC desktop for $1000-1500 these days. A lot of people, even in a business or authoring environment, do not need a full-on $2500 Mac Pro system, however awesome a value it may or may not be. It is simply overkill for their needs.
Which is why I have an iMac. What do you need to expand in these PCs ?
So what are you expanding in these PCs that you can't get in an iMac or via it's ports?
Bingo! And if the temporary drop in Mac marketshare caused by the one-two punch of Vista and waiting for Leopard isn't incentive for Apple to cover the IMPORTANT bases, then what is?
Bases Apple SHOULD cover:
1) Resonably-priced minitower (sorry Apple Apologista Squad?, you may not want one, but a significant number of potential Apple Switchers do.)
2) Subnotebook! I wouldn't want one, but this is a hot and growing segment.
3) $999 MacBook (with the option to upgrade graphics for $$$).
4) Better/more flexible BTO option in the Apple Store in general.
5) Free or cheap Leopard upgrade voucher for all Macs bought between now and Leopard's release (thank you to whomever first mentioned this, brilliant idea).
The question is, HOW BAD does Apple want marketshare? They can 'stay the course', be complacent, and watch it drop or stagnate; or they can be aggressive, compete, and watch it rise even in the face of current headwinds.
Guess we'll see if Steve has been eating his Wheaties soon.
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A cheaper headless Mac would be sweet, but would probably cut into the iMac sales, as you can get LCD's for next to nothing anymore (and good ones at that). I
I just don't see what is stopping Apple from releasing a mid-tower that has specs like:
2 GB DDR2 RAM
Intel E6400-E6600
250 - 320 GB SATA
Nvidia 7-series or ATI variant.
Apple KB and mouse
All in a cheaper, white tower, similar look to an iMac.
The iMac just doesn't get it - its not bad, but it's still a laptop in a different case. And $2500 for a tower, is not needed for home users, unless you're a PC gamer maybe, but that is atypical as well.
Leopard really doesn't wow me, but it's new, some of the features have been available for Windows and *nix for years, but a OSX would be that happy medium between Windows and Linux that I could happy with. Just need that mid-tower.
I have mine on the right and it's neither second tier or a mirror. Seems to work just fine. You do know you can move the screens in the preference pane don't you? And indicate which is the primary display?
And how do you eject your dvd / cd out of the RIGHT side of the iMac? Kinda hard when the LCD is flush against the bezel. And yes I do know you can move them. I have my 20" 205bw samsung on my PB on the RIGHT side. But I don't have to worry about ejecting things that go against the LCD. However I wasn't aware you could set it as a primary display. You certainly can't on my powerbook.
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And what does it matter if Apple aren't doing what you want for whatever reason they fancy - it's their business, not yours. One of my clients is a bike company who comes out with completely whacky designs every now and again simply because they can and they like doing it. For instance, they're just about to do a limited edition lugged steel frame. NOBODY builds bikes like that anymore but the owner just fancied one for the hell of it so they're building a whole run. They don't make the most common kinds of bikes and nobody really expects them to either. Why people can't get their heads around Apple doing exactly the same puzzles me immensely? You know, Apple - the company that wants us to 'Think Different'.
42 pages of babies crying that they can't get their XMac isn't going to convince Apple or me.
We are simply showing there is a HUGE demand for it. Babies crying? Just because it doesn't apply to you, doesn't mean it doeasn't apply to other people. And again, I was simply showing that if you want to be a good AI member, you'd move this discussion to the other thread. Participate if you want. I don't care either way. But this thread isn't the place for this discussion.
Which is why I have an iMac. What do you need to expand in these PCs ?
So what are you expanding in these PCs that you can't get in an iMac or via it's ports?
Boss wanted the ability to drop in a good video editing card and/or upgrade graphics if need be. Wasn't interested in external 'box' solutions as 1) he hasn't really heard of 'em, 2) when described to him, he thought they sounded cheesy- though IMO something like a Dazzle Bridge might've been ok.
Its just a tough sell to someone who hasn't seen/heard about one, and he wanted "maximum flexibility", quote unquote. So the PC solution won out. I'm sure that the conversation we had would've worked out the same with 9 out of 10 bosses I've met in the corp world. Blah. \
Its not just MS. Its Apple not recognizing a hole in their product line-up, one that, yeah, would do them a lot of good to fill. No one is asking them to be all things to all people. But an expandable midrange desktop... that's a pretty basic/core need. Maybe not among current Mac users (though I could be wrong about that), but among those who'd like to be.
I guess they just didn't want to sell us some comps.
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Are you serious?
You really think Apple haven't recognised that they don't have a mid range tower product?
I'm pretty sure they have, just so far they've chose not to fill the gap for whatever reason be it aesthetic or financial or the secretaries dog doesn't like them.
A cheaper headless Mac would be sweet, but would probably cut into the iMac sales, as you can get LCD's for next to nothing anymore (and good ones at that).
Yep, but as history shows us again and again, a company unwilling to cannibalize its existing product line will have someone else do it for them. \
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I just don't see what is stopping Apple from releasing a mid-tower that has specs like:
2 GB DDR2 RAM
Intel E6400-E6600
250 - 320 GB SATA
Nvidia 7-series or ATI variant.
Apple KB and mouse
All in a cheaper, white tower, similar look to an iMac.
USB and AC brick clutter, cheaper internal drives, possible ability to swap out graphics cards.
USB - don't see them. There's one cable out of my iMac to a quite pretty Swann USB hub behind my printer. Wireless everything else here.
AC - they're behind my desk out of sight.
Drives - I'd rather have external ones as you can transport them between machines or take them offsite. The last external case I bought was £9. The next set of drives I'm looking at are networked.
Graphics cards - It's already way more than I need for Photoshop or the OS.
For most pros that aren't video/3D pros, just general graphics and programming, the iMac is overkill never mind a mid tower XMac.
I am not a fan of analysts, but on this one, despite all the hopes to the contrary being expressed here, the general thurst of Munster's analysis is right on. The reasons are:
1) Price, price, price: You can get brand new Vista Premium-ready notebooks that are amazingly fully-loaded for the average home/corporate user in the $600 - $800 range. Mac has nothing that comes close. (I know, I know, all the arguments about "no it's not really comparable" or "the Mac mini" or "think about all the goodies such as iLife" etc -- it is all completely irrelevant to a typical home/corporate user, and has been beaten to death in the "Hello I am a Mac/PC" ads).
2) Inertia, inertia, inertia: Market shares for operating systems will simply track new computer purchases. Here, Apple does have issues -- their share actually fell a bit. The fact that this happened despite XP being on its last legs and OSX being so much better tells me that the average person is not persuaded by Macs in spite of its greater ease of use, elegance, iLife software, magnetic power cords, brighter screens, etc etc. It is also related to where the increases in computer sales are happening worldwide (they are in expremely price-sensitive markets in Asia and Latin America).
3) Same-same-same: For the average consumer, it is not at all clear that 10.5 represents a great breakthrough over 10.4.8 (or later) as does Vista over XP. (I am a slightly-better-than-average consumer, and frankly, I see no pressing need for switching to 10.5 as soon as it comes out; other users in my family, even less so).
4) iPhone, iPod, iTunes: Apple (sans "Computer") has become too enamored with the sexier and cooler entertainment/media/telecom business. Corporate attention is beginning to wander away from computers -- there's only so much within a corporate span of attention that can done effectively. Right now, the margins in e/m/t are high for Apple, but all three are brutally competitive businesses. Altho computers are also a brutally competitive business, Apple's software was head-and-shoulders above the rest of the business and that was a major diffferentiating factor. But in media and entertainment, the real "software" is content, not software -- and, Apple has little to offer there.
I hate to sound Cassandra-ish, but ten years from now, January 2007 (iPhone + Vista + "Apple Inc") could be marked as the (slow) beginning of the (hopefully, even slower) end of Macintoshes.
You really think Apple haven't recognised that they don't have a mid range tower product?
I'm pretty sure they have, just so far they've chose not to fill the gap for whatever reason be it aesthetic or financial or the secretaries dog doesn't like them.
Well, they're obviously choosing profitability over marketshare in this instance, which is desirable a lot of the time... BUT they also seem to be stuck in some old-school thinking as well, not realizing how much they could expand their share among (potential) switchers here.
I get where Apple is coming from, I just think they need to Think Different in this area. 8)
I'm going to say it again, because it's the point that needs to be stressed in this whole "why isn't there a xxxx Mac?" discussion.
I've used Macs for over 20 years
I own three Macs that get used every day
When the price/performance has been there I've bought brand new (2 from Apple and one clone)
I want to buy a new Mac with AppleCare
Apple isn't going to get a penny from me until they offer a machine that offers the features I want at a price I consider reasonable.
Said price will be higher than a superficially similar machine from Dell because I want Apple quality and MacOS X and because I understand the need for my computer vendor to make a healthy profit so it will still be around when I want my next computer.
Well, they're obviously choosing profitability over marketshare in this instance, which is desirable a lot of the time... BUT they also seem to be stuck in some old-school thinking as well, not realizing how much they could expand their share among switchers here.
Apple are stuck in some 'old-school thinking' because they aren't building mid-towers ?
LOL! Comedy gold.
WTF buys mid towers these days outside of the cubicles and the teeange gamer geek, neither of which are traditional Mac buyers. Switchers have been buying laptops. Home/Small business users have too. Lots of creatives find laptops perfect too. The days of the empty mid tower sat on your desk or festering somewhere near the dust bunnies on the floor are almost over.
This is a rough 2-3 month gap between Vista and Leopard. People are ready to upgrade their computers, and Apple are staying "OK, you're buying a computer, think about Mac."
But it is Mac with 10.4. How will a switcher feel paying $129 in 2-3 months for 10.5?
An aggressive counter-Vista move would be for Apple to say "if you buy a new Mac NOW, you get a free upgrade when Leopard is released." Or their typical $19.95 "handling" fee for free upgrades I mean, Apple isn't struggling for money anymore. They can make this sort of move with little risk.
Yeah that'd make a lot of sense to me. Good Idea, an OSX upgrade guaranteed would inspire a lot people.
Apple are stuck in some 'old-school thinking' because they aren't building mid-towers ?
LOL! Comedy gold.
No, they're stuck in old-school thinking because in a lot of areas they're still working from a strategy of milking a fixed base, instead of working harder to appeal to a wider (and formerly Windows-centric) one. The Mac Mini and $999 iMac are good first steps, but its fair to say there's more they could do. And with their now diversified revenue base, they could do it without endangering the company in any way.
Failing to provide an expandable, reasonably-priced midrange desktop is only a symptom of such thinking, its not the root cause of why they're stuck in the past. \
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WTF buys mid towers these days outside of the cubicles and the teeange gamer geek
Well, multibillion dollar corporations like mine, for one. Is that what you mean by 'the cubicles'? That's not an inconsiderable market.
Oh, and Windows switchers too, who are used to buying minitowers.
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neither of which are traditional Mac buyers.
Who really cares? If Apple is to keep expanding its Mac business, it needs to reach beyond 'traditional Mac buyers'.
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Switchers have been buying laptops. Home/Small business users have too. Lots of creatives find laptops perfect too. The days of the empty mid tower sat on your desk or festering somewhere near the dust bunnies on the floor are almost over.
Oh my. People want midrange desktops, and your solution is to tell 'em to "go buy a laptop instead"??. The customer isn't king, and father knows best?
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> "There are far too many people that say "how much is a tower?" 2.5k. "no thanks".
And if one were to interject, "But that is between $1,000 and $1500 cheaper than a similarly configured PC," would it still be, "no thanks."?
Yeah, it'd still probably be "no thanks", sad to say.
Because as we all know, you can build a pretty killer EXPANDABLE Core 2 Duo-Vista PC desktop for $1000-1500 these days. A lot of people, even in a business or authoring environment, do not need a full-on $2500 Mac Pro system, however awesome a value it may or may not be. It is simply overkill for their needs.
Let's put it this way- I work at a multibillion dollar international corporation. We're going to be buying some media boxes for authoring purposes. We're going the PC route (ugh) and will be getting some nice Core 2 Duo desktops for roughly $1400 a pop.
If Apple had had an expandable desktop in the that price range, we might have gone with them, because we could've run the software we wanted to author on (Captivate) on the Windows side, and also have used Final Cut Pro on the Mac side, something that's attractive but not mandatory for what we do. But that ability simply isn't worth the $1100 surcharge (actually more like $1200-1300, since we'd have to get Windows also).
So Apple misses out, and I have to use a less good comp because of it. Yay.
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You sure can!! Assuming you want your display on the LEFT side and just want it to be a 2nd tier display, unless you mirror.
I have mine on the right and it's neither second tier or a mirror. Seems to work just fine. You do know you can move the screens in the preference pane don't you? And indicate which is the primary display?
BTW... I'm glad you have your pride on the later sentence. But the question arises, is apple doing it for pride? Or is apple doing it for other reasons
Nothing to do with pride for me. I just don't think promoting religion is a good idea.
And what does it matter if Apple aren't doing what you want for whatever reason they fancy - it's their business, not yours. One of my clients is a bike company who comes out with completely whacky designs every now and again simply because they can and they like doing it. For instance, they're just about to do a limited edition lugged steel frame. NOBODY builds bikes like that anymore but the owner just fancied one for the hell of it so they're building a whole run. They don't make the most common kinds of bikes and nobody really expects them to either. Why people can't get their heads around Apple doing exactly the same puzzles me immensely? You know, Apple - the company that wants us to 'Think Different'.
42 pages of babies crying that they can't get their XMac isn't going to convince Apple or me.
Bases Apple SHOULD cover:
1) Resonably-priced minitower (sorry Apple Apologista Squad?, you may not want one, but a significant number of potential Apple Switchers do.)
2) Subnotebook! I wouldn't want one, but this is a hot and growing segment.
3) $999 MacBook (with the option to upgrade graphics for $$$).
4) Better/more flexible BTO option in the Apple Store in general.
5) Free or cheap Leopard upgrade voucher for all Macs bought between now and Leopard's release (thank you to whomever first mentioned this, brilliant idea).
I'm an old school Mac user (used them at school/work since '86, owned since '92) and I want a minitower. As it stands Apple derives almost no benefit from my existence. I've owned a lot of Macs over the years but Apple only got my money twice. The rest of the time I've purchased used desktops or towers. I'm a software professional and I can afford to buy new, but there are only two Macs that allow me to choose a display upgrade cycle independently of the computer upgrade, only one Mac with room for more than one HD, only one with more than two RAM slots (so you can add RAM without throwing some away), only one that allows me to swap the video card, optical drive, etc. The Mac Pro contains server components not appropriate for most users and priced far above the tower offerings available in the PC world.
Regarding notebooks, Apple still seems to be stuck in a mindset that budget users have notebooks with small screens and power users have large screens. I think Sony, HP, Toshiba, et al have proof that Apple should have a 15" MacBook and compact, ultra light MacBook Pro in the lineup.
Apple can retort that the 12" PowerBook and 14" iBook were sales failures, but I'll point to the fact that the 12" PowerBook was seriously crippled, a product most customers could not distinguish from an iBook except by the aluminum skin and 50% increase in price. The 14" iBook was too heavy (significantly more than the 15" PowerBook), had the same low resolution display as the 12" model and needlessly upgraded components which drove the price too high.
I also like the idea of a free Leopard voucher, but Vista shouldn't be the incentive for it. Instead Apple should establish a standard policy that buyers will receive a free OS upgrade with a computer when purchased within a reasonable time period before a major release. Then, as a major release is approaching, advertise the free upgrade date. Stop making potential buyers guess, stop driving us to rumor sites, give us a firm date and stick to it even if the OS itself arrives unexpectedly early or late.
Those who need to make a purchase before that date may whine about not getting a free upgrade, but if they really need the computer, they will lose far more than $129 in lost productivity by waiting.
TBaggins, I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people in that position. It's no wonder Vista is going to get away with murder in sales. It's unfortunate that m$ can throw their weight that way. Marketing tactics, pulling XP off shelves, offering free upgrades 2-5 months before it shipped, taking advantage of every x86 computer in the world being able to run it. Talk crap about m$ all you want (i do), but they definitely know how to flex their muscles to force sales.
Its not just MS. Its Apple not recognizing a hole in their product line-up, one that, yeah, would do them a lot of good to fill. No one is asking them to be all things to all people. But an expandable midrange desktop... that's a pretty basic/core need. Maybe not among current Mac users (though I could be wrong about that), but among those who'd like to be.
I guess they just didn't want to sell us some comps.
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Because as we all know, you can build a pretty killer EXPANDABLE Core 2 Duo-Vista PC desktop for $1000-1500 these days. A lot of people, even in a business or authoring environment, do not need a full-on $2500 Mac Pro system, however awesome a value it may or may not be. It is simply overkill for their needs.
Which is why I have an iMac. What do you need to expand in these PCs ?
So what are you expanding in these PCs that you can't get in an iMac or via it's ports?
Bingo! And if the temporary drop in Mac marketshare caused by the one-two punch of Vista and waiting for Leopard isn't incentive for Apple to cover the IMPORTANT bases, then what is?
Bases Apple SHOULD cover:
1) Resonably-priced minitower (sorry Apple Apologista Squad?, you may not want one, but a significant number of potential Apple Switchers do.)
2) Subnotebook! I wouldn't want one, but this is a hot and growing segment.
3) $999 MacBook (with the option to upgrade graphics for $$$).
4) Better/more flexible BTO option in the Apple Store in general.
5) Free or cheap Leopard upgrade voucher for all Macs bought between now and Leopard's release (thank you to whomever first mentioned this, brilliant idea).
The question is, HOW BAD does Apple want marketshare? They can 'stay the course', be complacent, and watch it drop or stagnate; or they can be aggressive, compete, and watch it rise even in the face of current headwinds.
Guess we'll see if Steve has been eating his Wheaties soon.
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A cheaper headless Mac would be sweet, but would probably cut into the iMac sales, as you can get LCD's for next to nothing anymore (and good ones at that). I
I just don't see what is stopping Apple from releasing a mid-tower that has specs like:
2 GB DDR2 RAM
Intel E6400-E6600
250 - 320 GB SATA
Nvidia 7-series or ATI variant.
Apple KB and mouse
All in a cheaper, white tower, similar look to an iMac.
All for $1200-1500 - very doable IMO.
Look at this HP, it even has an HD-DVD drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883107230
The iMac just doesn't get it - its not bad, but it's still a laptop in a different case. And $2500 for a tower, is not needed for home users, unless you're a PC gamer maybe, but that is atypical as well.
Leopard really doesn't wow me, but it's new, some of the features have been available for Windows and *nix for years, but a OSX would be that happy medium between Windows and Linux that I could happy with. Just need that mid-tower.
Which is why I have an iMac. What do you need to expand in these PCs ?
So what are you expanding in these PCs that you can't get in an iMac or via it's ports?
USB and AC brick clutter, cheaper internal drives, possible ability to swap out graphics cards.
I have mine on the right and it's neither second tier or a mirror. Seems to work just fine. You do know you can move the screens in the preference pane don't you? And indicate which is the primary display?
And how do you eject your dvd / cd out of the RIGHT side of the iMac? Kinda hard when the LCD is flush against the bezel. And yes I do know you can move them. I have my 20" 205bw samsung on my PB on the RIGHT side. But I don't have to worry about ejecting things that go against the LCD. However I wasn't aware you could set it as a primary display. You certainly can't on my powerbook.
And what does it matter if Apple aren't doing what you want for whatever reason they fancy - it's their business, not yours. One of my clients is a bike company who comes out with completely whacky designs every now and again simply because they can and they like doing it. For instance, they're just about to do a limited edition lugged steel frame. NOBODY builds bikes like that anymore but the owner just fancied one for the hell of it so they're building a whole run. They don't make the most common kinds of bikes and nobody really expects them to either. Why people can't get their heads around Apple doing exactly the same puzzles me immensely? You know, Apple - the company that wants us to 'Think Different'.
42 pages of babies crying that they can't get their XMac isn't going to convince Apple or me.
We are simply showing there is a HUGE demand for it. Babies crying? Just because it doesn't apply to you, doesn't mean it doeasn't apply to other people. And again, I was simply showing that if you want to be a good AI member, you'd move this discussion to the other thread. Participate if you want. I don't care either way. But this thread isn't the place for this discussion.
Which is why I have an iMac. What do you need to expand in these PCs ?
So what are you expanding in these PCs that you can't get in an iMac or via it's ports?
Boss wanted the ability to drop in a good video editing card and/or upgrade graphics if need be. Wasn't interested in external 'box' solutions as 1) he hasn't really heard of 'em, 2) when described to him, he thought they sounded cheesy- though IMO something like a Dazzle Bridge might've been ok.
Its just a tough sell to someone who hasn't seen/heard about one, and he wanted "maximum flexibility", quote unquote. So the PC solution won out. I'm sure that the conversation we had would've worked out the same with 9 out of 10 bosses I've met in the corp world. Blah.
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Its not just MS. Its Apple not recognizing a hole in their product line-up, one that, yeah, would do them a lot of good to fill. No one is asking them to be all things to all people. But an expandable midrange desktop... that's a pretty basic/core need. Maybe not among current Mac users (though I could be wrong about that), but among those who'd like to be.
I guess they just didn't want to sell us some comps.
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Are you serious?
You really think Apple haven't recognised that they don't have a mid range tower product?
I'm pretty sure they have, just so far they've chose not to fill the gap for whatever reason be it aesthetic or financial or the secretaries dog doesn't like them.
A cheaper headless Mac would be sweet, but would probably cut into the iMac sales, as you can get LCD's for next to nothing anymore (and good ones at that).
Yep, but as history shows us again and again, a company unwilling to cannibalize its existing product line will have someone else do it for them.
I just don't see what is stopping Apple from releasing a mid-tower that has specs like:
2 GB DDR2 RAM
Intel E6400-E6600
250 - 320 GB SATA
Nvidia 7-series or ATI variant.
Apple KB and mouse
All in a cheaper, white tower, similar look to an iMac.
All for $1200-1500 - very doable IMO.
Look at this HP, it even has an HD-DVD drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883107230
That's pretty close to what we ended up getting, 'cept we had dual 320 GB hard drives, and got a slightly better price.
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USB and AC brick clutter, cheaper internal drives, possible ability to swap out graphics cards.
USB - don't see them. There's one cable out of my iMac to a quite pretty Swann USB hub behind my printer. Wireless everything else here.
AC - they're behind my desk out of sight.
Drives - I'd rather have external ones as you can transport them between machines or take them offsite. The last external case I bought was £9. The next set of drives I'm looking at are networked.
Graphics cards - It's already way more than I need for Photoshop or the OS.
For most pros that aren't video/3D pros, just general graphics and programming, the iMac is overkill never mind a mid tower XMac.
I am not a fan of analysts, but on this one, despite all the hopes to the contrary being expressed here, the general thurst of Munster's analysis is right on. The reasons are:
1) Price, price, price: You can get brand new Vista Premium-ready notebooks that are amazingly fully-loaded for the average home/corporate user in the $600 - $800 range. Mac has nothing that comes close. (I know, I know, all the arguments about "no it's not really comparable" or "the Mac mini" or "think about all the goodies such as iLife" etc -- it is all completely irrelevant to a typical home/corporate user, and has been beaten to death in the "Hello I am a Mac/PC" ads).
2) Inertia, inertia, inertia: Market shares for operating systems will simply track new computer purchases. Here, Apple does have issues -- their share actually fell a bit. The fact that this happened despite XP being on its last legs and OSX being so much better tells me that the average person is not persuaded by Macs in spite of its greater ease of use, elegance, iLife software, magnetic power cords, brighter screens, etc etc. It is also related to where the increases in computer sales are happening worldwide (they are in expremely price-sensitive markets in Asia and Latin America).
3) Same-same-same: For the average consumer, it is not at all clear that 10.5 represents a great breakthrough over 10.4.8 (or later) as does Vista over XP. (I am a slightly-better-than-average consumer, and frankly, I see no pressing need for switching to 10.5 as soon as it comes out; other users in my family, even less so).
4) iPhone, iPod, iTunes: Apple (sans "Computer") has become too enamored with the sexier and cooler entertainment/media/telecom business. Corporate attention is beginning to wander away from computers -- there's only so much within a corporate span of attention that can done effectively. Right now, the margins in e/m/t are high for Apple, but all three are brutally competitive businesses. Altho computers are also a brutally competitive business, Apple's software was head-and-shoulders above the rest of the business and that was a major diffferentiating factor. But in media and entertainment, the real "software" is content, not software -- and, Apple has little to offer there.
I hate to sound Cassandra-ish, but ten years from now, January 2007 (iPhone + Vista + "Apple Inc") could be marked as the (slow) beginning of the (hopefully, even slower) end of Macintoshes.
Are you serious?
Is the Pope Catholic?
You really think Apple haven't recognised that they don't have a mid range tower product?
I'm pretty sure they have, just so far they've chose not to fill the gap for whatever reason be it aesthetic or financial or the secretaries dog doesn't like them.
Well, they're obviously choosing profitability over marketshare in this instance, which is desirable a lot of the time... BUT they also seem to be stuck in some old-school thinking as well, not realizing how much they could expand their share among (potential) switchers here.
I get where Apple is coming from, I just think they need to Think Different in this area. 8)
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I've used Macs for over 20 years
I own three Macs that get used every day
When the price/performance has been there I've bought brand new (2 from Apple and one clone)
I want to buy a new Mac with AppleCare
Apple isn't going to get a penny from me until they offer a machine that offers the features I want at a price I consider reasonable.
Said price will be higher than a superficially similar machine from Dell because I want Apple quality and MacOS X and because I understand the need for my computer vendor to make a healthy profit so it will still be around when I want my next computer.
Well, they're obviously choosing profitability over marketshare in this instance, which is desirable a lot of the time... BUT they also seem to be stuck in some old-school thinking as well, not realizing how much they could expand their share among switchers here.
Apple are stuck in some 'old-school thinking' because they aren't building mid-towers ?
LOL! Comedy gold.
WTF buys mid towers these days outside of the cubicles and the teeange gamer geek, neither of which are traditional Mac buyers. Switchers have been buying laptops. Home/Small business users have too. Lots of creatives find laptops perfect too. The days of the empty mid tower sat on your desk or festering somewhere near the dust bunnies on the floor are almost over.
This is a rough 2-3 month gap between Vista and Leopard. People are ready to upgrade their computers, and Apple are staying "OK, you're buying a computer, think about Mac."
But it is Mac with 10.4. How will a switcher feel paying $129 in 2-3 months for 10.5?
An aggressive counter-Vista move would be for Apple to say "if you buy a new Mac NOW, you get a free upgrade when Leopard is released." Or their typical $19.95 "handling" fee for free upgrades
Yeah that'd make a lot of sense to me. Good Idea, an OSX upgrade guaranteed would inspire a lot people.
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Apple are stuck in some 'old-school thinking' because they aren't building mid-towers ?
LOL! Comedy gold.
No, they're stuck in old-school thinking because in a lot of areas they're still working from a strategy of milking a fixed base, instead of working harder to appeal to a wider (and formerly Windows-centric) one. The Mac Mini and $999 iMac are good first steps, but its fair to say there's more they could do. And with their now diversified revenue base, they could do it without endangering the company in any way.
Failing to provide an expandable, reasonably-priced midrange desktop is only a symptom of such thinking, its not the root cause of why they're stuck in the past.
WTF buys mid towers these days outside of the cubicles and the teeange gamer geek
Well, multibillion dollar corporations like mine, for one. Is that what you mean by 'the cubicles'? That's not an inconsiderable market.
Oh, and Windows switchers too, who are used to buying minitowers.
neither of which are traditional Mac buyers.
Who really cares? If Apple is to keep expanding its Mac business, it needs to reach beyond 'traditional Mac buyers'.
Switchers have been buying laptops. Home/Small business users have too. Lots of creatives find laptops perfect too. The days of the empty mid tower sat on your desk or festering somewhere near the dust bunnies on the floor are almost over.
Oh my. People want midrange desktops, and your solution is to tell 'em to "go buy a laptop instead"??. The customer isn't king, and father knows best?
Comedy platinum. 8)
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