Cutting a file from a Finder window

nius

Hey there,



It seems that I am not able to cut a file or directory from a Finder window. The Cut option seems to be greyed out in the Edit menu, and Apple+X does not work.



It is a little frustrating having to copy the file, remembering to delete it after I've pasted it elsewhere. I'm assuming that I'm missing something here.



Regards,

Nius.

ipeon

Er... You don't cut files, you delete them or move them to the trash.

kickaha

You're not missing anything, Apple does not support Cut for files in the Finder. It's a deliberate decision that's been discussed to death around here (although not for a while...)



Cut everywhere else in the system is destructive, in that if you Cut two items without pasting in between, the first is lost forever. This is bad enough with something like a blurb of text in a document, but really bad with entire files.



So, in the Finder there are three options:



1) Preserve the Cut behavior present in the rest of the system, and have a file-level destructive action without warning, feedback, or undo. Bad.



2) Change Cut to work completely unlike everywhere else, so Finder Cut has different behavior and semantics, but is now file-safe.



3) Just disable it, and let the user use the more atomic Copy and Delete.



Apple went with #3.

dacloo

Here we go again on the "cut is destructive" thing (that never causes any trouble on the Windows / Linux platform and just works damn fine)....

majormatt

It's fine until you lose a document that took 20 hours to make. I dont cut and paste, I drag files around.

dacloo

Actually *try* destroying a file. It never happened me, my collegues and my dad for all the time we're using Windows. It's a myth, "cut" being dangerous. It's not. If your ruined your files, you were probably doing something stupid (no offense).



Btw, it's time Apple improved the trashcan. On Windows, I can do a "place back in original folder" which is darn handy with multiple files. Also, I can't open files in the trash.

kickaha

Quote:

Originally Posted by dacloo


Actually *try* destroying a file. It never happened me, my collegues and my dad for all the time we're using Windows. It's a myth, "cut" being dangerous. It's not. If your ruined your files, you were probably doing something stupid (no offense).



Btw, it's time Apple improved the trashcan. On Windows, I can do a "place back in original folder" which is darn handy with multiple files. Also, I can't open files in the trash.

Yup, dropping "Put Away" from the Trash was one of the big losses from OS 9 to OS X. (Yeah, it was in MacOS as far back as at least System 7.)



The entire reason that subsequent cut doesn't destroy files in Windows Explorer is because *it's not cut*. See option #2 in the above list I provided. They just reused the same name, but with different behavior than EVERYWHERE ELSE in the system. This is endemic on Windows and Linux, and all it leads to is confusion. They can't get their damned concepts or terminology straight.



Hell, call it 'Safe Cut' or something, I don't care, but the fact is that calling it 'Cut', when it doesn't act like Cut anywhere else, is just stupid, and another symptom of bad design.



You're right, it's a highly useful thing on Windows... because the window navigation and management is so horribly piss-poor that you actually need it. Between spring loaded drag/drop, and, most importantly the column view, I've never found the need for it in the Finder.

dutch pear

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kickaha


Yup, dropping "Put Away" from the Trash was one of the big losses from OS 9 to OS X. (Yeah, it was in MacOS as far back as at least System 7.)



The entire reason that subsequent cut doesn't destroy files in Windows Explorer is because *it's not cut*. See option #2 in the above list I provided. They just reused the same name, but with different behavior than EVERYWHERE ELSE in the system. This is endemic on Windows and Linux, and all it leads to is confusion. They can't get their damned concepts or terminology straight.

Huh ?



How does it behave differently in explorer???

Top example: explorer, bottom example word (or any equivalent)



select file in original location, Ctrl-x, go to destination, Ctrl-v, file is now in destination.

select text in original location, Ctrl-x, go to destination, Ctrl-v, text is now in destination.



Now tell me how this differs??

kickaha

As I said above, Cut the first text snippet. Now immediately Cut a second text snippet. First one is gone, irrecoverable, and forever more deleted.



Does it work that way with files in Windows Explorer? No.



If it did, it would be too dangerous to lose entire files without a recovery mechanism because of an erroneous keystroke. Losing chunks of text is bad enough, but whole files? Bad, bad, bad.



So they changed it... but they still call it Cut.



Like I said, call it Safe Cut, or better, implement a system-wide multi-level clipboard/shelf, and it'd be spiffy, but to have the same terminology for two different behaviors, even when they make sense within the particular context, is a sign of poor design planning.

dutch pear

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kickaha


As I said above, Cut the first text snippet. Now immediately Cut a second text snippet. First one is gone, irrecoverable, and forever more deleted.



Does it work that way with files in Windows Explorer? No.



If it did, it would be too dangerous to lose entire files without a recovery mechanism because of an erroneous keystroke. Losing chunks of text is bad enough, but whole files? Bad, bad, bad.



So they changed it... but they still call it Cut.

Ok, see what you mean now, though current (windows) word versions do not display this behaviour.

You do seem to be the very first person i heard from who is actually bothered by this inconsistency.



No offence though, hail be to the nitpicky ones 8)

kickaha

None taken.



So wait... Word for Windows now does *what* when you hit Cut twice in succession? Is it a multi-level clipboard? Does it not let you cut the second?

ipeon

Quote:

Originally Posted by dutch pear


You do seem to be the very first person i heard from who is actually bothered by this inconsistency.



No offence though, hail be to the nitpicky ones 8)

Heh... I think you will find that most Mac users agree that using the "cut" command to move or delete a file is, well... in the english language "cut" does not mean move or delete. I don't know about you, but if a were to tell someone at the office to "cut that document to my desk", some confusion would arise. But maybe that is how it's worded over in MS.

dutch pear

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kickaha


None taken.



So wait... Word for Windows now does *what* when you hit Cut twice in succession? Is it a multi-level clipboard? Does it not let you cut the second?

Yup, multilevel clipboard, actually annoying as hell. I'm at home drinking wine right now though so I can look for more detailed gross details only when I'm back at work tomorrow

chucker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kickaha


None taken.



So wait... Word for Windows now does *what* when you hit Cut twice in succession? Is it a multi-level clipboard? Does it not let you cut the second?

I think it was Office 2000 that added the multi-level clipboard. I've always found the implementation to be hugely confusing and distracting.



Not to mention, of course, that I'll stick to my "this stuff should always and exclusively be implemented on the system level, not per-application" ideal.

kickaha

I think you hit the nail on the head. Multi-level clipboard isn't something that's easy to get right, and it's such a ubiquitous functionality that concerns *all* apps, that it needs to be done at the system level to retain consistency.

dacloo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kickaha


You're right, it's a highly useful thing on Windows... because the window navigation and management is so horribly piss-poor that you actually need it. Between spring loaded drag/drop, and, most importantly the column view, I've never found the need for it in the Finder.

Okay...let's call it "move/drop" from now on, if that suits the metaphor better.

My arguments for move/drop files with using a keyboard:



1. Dragging/dropping on MacOSX can be very intensive. Lets say I just selected 23 files to be moved to a whole different location (not a parent directory, column view is ideal for that). I'm not going to press-and-hold the mouse button for so long, and find my destination through responding springloaded folders.

With move/drop I can simply press a key, and find my destination, at ease, and then dropping them.

2. I don't want to open two Finder windows (clutter) to move file A to B.



I especially miss the features in an open/save dialog. How often is it the case, that you want to save your file, and then find out you have to rename another file first? On Windows, I have those features, just like cut/paste and so forth. On the Mac, I will need to open te Finder and navigate to exactly the same folder as the save/open dialog.

Isn't the save/open dialog a special kind of Finder instance? It can't be so hard to implement this, right?

kickaha

Cool, I can live with move/drop. Honestly, I'd be thrilled to see a good multi-level clipboard, or, better, the resurrection of the NeXT Shelf metaphor. Loved that, was sad to see it go.



I think the issue comes down to whether you want to open two windows or not. Opening extra windows (of really any sort) in Windows just adds to the mess on the screen, and it isn't a natural workflow... mostly because organizing the windows is a pain. It makes sense to resist opening any new windows at pretty much any cost.



On the Mac, I don't find it to ever be a problem. One window for source, one for destination, drag, drop, done. The *only* difference is opening that second window, you are other wise going through exactly the same steps. You still have to navigate between them, and if you have the destination folder open already, then that's one *less* time you have to get there.



Open/Save dialogs are *NOT* Finder windows. Again, that was a definite decision. Early builds of Rhapsody that I played with had something closer to what you're talking about, and it never really worked all that well. A dialog for open/save should do exactly that. The 'New Folder' button is the only addition in there. Otherwise, it's a simple view into the file system. I rather like that.



And no, I don't often find myself needing to rename something in the middle of a save. I can't say I can recall ever having to do that, actually. *shrug*



One thing I do wish they had, was an 'Open in Finder' in the open/save dialog to get from the dialog to a full Finder window. You can drag a folder or file from the Finder into the dialog to jump right to it, but you can't go the other way.

ipeon

In Column View you don't have to have two windows open. Select the files you want to move and then just drag and drop to the new location. It's not that difficult and it's much faster than having an open/save dialog box open up asking you where you want to move them to. But yes, for those who prefer using the keyboard this can be annoying, however, even you were to use the keyboard "Cut" command as in Windows, you still have to close the window you are using, locate and open the folder you want to move the files to, and... OK, so what's the time saver here and how many more steps does this require?

michael_moriarty

To get the same type of cut & paste functionality I have on Windows, I installed this useful Finder plug-in:



File Cutter

http://homepage.mac.com/gweston/download.html

lfe2211

Have you guys ever used the program Path Finder? It has a great feature called Drop Srack. The Drop Stack gives you a functional temporary place into which you can place a group of folders and documents, then go to someplace else far away on your Mac, add a few more items, then go someplace else on your drive and drag all the contents of Drop Stack to their new location. You can even choose to compress the contents of the Drop Stack, email them, or burn them to a CD.

dacloo

Filecutter....I think it sucks.



1. doesn't highlight/dim files that "will be moved"

2. can't be accessed with a key shortcut

3. can be found in the contextual menu under FileCutter -> Cut.

Too unhandy! Why not simply "cut"?



PathFinder:



I own it. It is quite nice, but doesn't integrate in the OS very well.

Feels like an app instead of an integral part of the OS.

Dropstack is very nice, although I would have implemented another

frontend (it adds more clutter in the window).

E.g the dropstack only being visible when something IS in the dropstack,

reverting back to a small icon when it's empty.