But yes, for those who prefer using the keyboard this can be annoying...
For those who prefer using the keyboard there is also the Terminal.app and numerous other terminals under X11. Extremely convenient and faster than anything, especially when the files follow a naming pattern.
When you put something on the Shelf, it wasn't an alias, like the Sidebar or Dock... it actually moved it there. It was a temporary workspace - you could use it like the Dock or Sidebar for quick access, but most people I know used it as a waystation for moves.
Drag files to Shelf, navigate to new location, drag files from Shelf. Random access too, unlike a Drop Stack. Worked great if you had several files in different locations you wanted to collate into one destination, or vice versa.
Think of it kind of like the Desktop, really, but always available from every window. Now that I think about it, I use the Desktop a lot like this - drag off the source window, navigate to destination, drag from Desktop back.
The one drawback was that it took up screen space, but auto-hiding etc can take care of that.
When you put something on the Shelf, it wasn't an alias, like the Sidebar or Dock... it actually moved it there. It was a temporary workspace - you could use it like the Dock or Sidebar for quick access, but most people I know used it as a waystation for moves.
Drag files to Shelf, navigate to new location, drag files from Shelf. Random access too, unlike a Drop Stack. Worked great if you had several files in different locations you wanted to collate into one destination, or vice versa.
Think of it kind of like the Desktop, really, but always available from every window. Now that I think about it, I use the Desktop a lot like this - drag off the source window, navigate to destination, drag from Desktop back.
The one drawback was that it took up screen space, but auto-hiding etc can take care of that.
Okay, so more like popup windows in Finder in OS 8 and 9.
I'm still not convinced, though. Create a folder, put it in the sidebar and the Dock, move files in there, move files out of there; there's your shelf.
Eh, sort of. Actually go through that workflow and it's not quite as easy as the Shelf was. What you have to do is have the 'Shelf Folder' in the Dock/Sidebar for easy opening to get to the items, but that's another step.
Like I said, I think the Desktop has taken the place of the Shelf, in most ways. Plop items onto it, pull items off of it. The Shelf just seemed a bit... cleaner, somehow. *shrug*
Edit: Aaaaaand, I was wrong above. Moving items to the Shelf did *not* move them out of their original position... but dragging them to a new location *did*. Odd. Sorry, I misremembered. It's been a while since I booted up the NeXTstation.
So it was more analogous to the Sidebar (easy access), but also had the 'move on drag off to new location' behavior that the Sidebar lacks.
Edit: Aaaaaand, I was wrong above. Moving items to the Shelf did *not* move them out of their original position... but dragging them to a new location *did*. Odd. Sorry, I misremembered. It's been a while since I booted up the NeXTstation.
Don't tell me that you still have a Next machine around ready to boot!?
I have used very little some Next machines during the past decade (more than ten years now) and I cannot forget how extraordinary they looked and worked compared to what was available at the time. I also have some memories from the Shelf and I would like to see it returning in OS X. Perhaps some improved version under Leopard. The Desktop is insufficient to replace it when you have a large number of files, or when you already have there some files that you don't want to move. Yes, you can use the Dock but from what I can remember the Shelf was far more efficient, intuitive and elegant as solution to this problem.
Cool, I can live with move/drop. Honestly, I'd be thrilled to see a good multi-level clipboard, or, better, the resurrection of the NeXT Shelf metaphor. Loved that, was sad to see it go.
I think the issue comes down to whether you want to open two windows or not. Opening extra windows (of really any sort) in Windows just adds to the mess on the screen, and it isn't a natural workflow... mostly because organizing the windows is a pain. It makes sense to resist opening any new windows at pretty much any cost.
On the Mac, I don't find it to ever be a problem. One window for source, one for destination, drag, drop, done. The *only* difference is opening that second window, you are other wise going through exactly the same steps. You still have to navigate between them, and if you have the destination folder open already, then that's one *less* time you have to get there.
Open/Save dialogs are *NOT* Finder windows. Again, that was a definite decision. Early builds of Rhapsody that I played with had something closer to what you're talking about, and it never really worked all that well. A dialog for open/save should do exactly that. The 'New Folder' button is the only addition in there. Otherwise, it's a simple view into the file system. I rather like that.
And no, I don't often find myself needing to rename something in the middle of a save. I can't say I can recall ever having to do that, actually. *shrug*
One thing I do wish they had, was an 'Open in Finder' in the open/save dialog to get from the dialog to a full Finder window. You can drag a folder or file from the Finder into the dialog to jump right to it, but you can't go the other way.
About the opensave dialogs being Finder views yes/no, I was referring to a technical point of view. It seems the open/save dialog is some kind of special stripped down version of the Finder :-)
I think it comes down to what you do on the computer. For example, I am working on a content management system. Here, it is vital that you organise files the right way. Designing the code is very iterative, this also counts for file management. So, you end up with moving files back and forth, renaming them, etc. I guess I'm more confronted with this whole thing?
An example of renaming a file; let's say I have Photoshop running. I want to save my file. I see the save dialog. Now I decide: "it's time to clean up the mess a bit". On Windows I then click on e.g two PSDs called "blahX.psd" and "blahY.psd" and rename them ito "blah_version1.psd" and "blah_version2.psd". Lastly, I actually save the new version as "blah_version3.psd".
Now why should I leave the Photoshop environment, open Finder, navigate to my project folder and rename them there? Isn't it very intuitive to be able to press ENTER on a filename inside the open/save dialog and rename them over there?
About the opensave dialogs being Finder views yes/no, I was referring to a technical point of view. It seems the open/save dialog is some kind of special stripped down version of the Finder :-)
Well... sort of...
It's a bit like a specialized view (from the MVC concept, not a Finder View), with a very limited controller (New Folder). I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one... I feel that the Finder should be the only place one manipulates files and folders. An Open/Save dialog should do just that... open, or save. Not rename, not move, not be a piece of the Finder embedded into every application.
Quote:
I think it comes down to what you do on the computer. For example, I am working on a content management system. Here, it is vital that you organise files the right way. Designing the code is very iterative, this also counts for file management. So, you end up with moving files back and forth, renaming them, etc. I guess I'm more confronted with this whole thing?
Could be. I see file organization as more top down... either I know ahead of time what a structure is going to look like, and I build it, or I wait until I have a good feel for what it needs to be, and do a refactoring at one shot. Either way, having a *full* Finder at my disposal beats any stripped down wannabe.
Quote:
An example of renaming a file; let's say I have Photoshop running. I want to save my file. I see the save dialog. Now I decide: "it's time to clean up the mess a bit". On Windows I then click on e.g two PSDs called "blahX.psd" and "blahY.psd" and rename them ito "blah_version1.psd" and "blah_version2.psd". Lastly, I actually save the new version as "blah_version3.psd".
Yeeeeah, I can't say I ever do that.
Quote:
Now why should I leave the Photoshop environment, open Finder, navigate to my project folder and rename them there? Isn't it very intuitive to be able to press ENTER on a filename inside the open/save dialog and rename them over there?
So now Enter/Return will rename, instead of triggering Open/Save? Well, there goes 22 years of consistency...
Seriously, this is sort of a slippery slope, IMO. We're still in an application-oriented world, and trying to bring in document-centric behavior willy-nilly is just asking for trouble. If you need to task A, go to the application that does that task. Trying to import mini-apps into various environments is a) never going to please everyone unless you bring in the *entire* app, b) will then annoy those who will never need the full app in such a limited environment. If you need to perform the task, go to the app that does it best, and let each app focus on its own requirements to the exclusion of others.
Not to mention that you're looking at merging UI behaviors that were never intended to be merged... look at the Enter/Return example above. In a Finder window, it triggers a rename, but in a dialog, it triggers the default button. So which would it trigger in a 'Finder dialog'? If the button, then it's not really a Finder window. If the rename, then now that dialog doesn't act like any other dialog. Impasse.
Comments
But yes, for those who prefer using the keyboard this can be annoying...
For those who prefer using the keyboard there is also the Terminal.app and numerous other terminals under X11. Extremely convenient and faster than anything, especially when the files follow a naming pattern.
Drag files to Shelf, navigate to new location, drag files from Shelf. Random access too, unlike a Drop Stack. Worked great if you had several files in different locations you wanted to collate into one destination, or vice versa.
Think of it kind of like the Desktop, really, but always available from every window. Now that I think about it, I use the Desktop a lot like this - drag off the source window, navigate to destination, drag from Desktop back.
The one drawback was that it took up screen space, but auto-hiding etc can take care of that.
When you put something on the Shelf, it wasn't an alias, like the Sidebar or Dock... it actually moved it there. It was a temporary workspace - you could use it like the Dock or Sidebar for quick access, but most people I know used it as a waystation for moves.
Drag files to Shelf, navigate to new location, drag files from Shelf. Random access too, unlike a Drop Stack. Worked great if you had several files in different locations you wanted to collate into one destination, or vice versa.
Think of it kind of like the Desktop, really, but always available from every window. Now that I think about it, I use the Desktop a lot like this - drag off the source window, navigate to destination, drag from Desktop back.
The one drawback was that it took up screen space, but auto-hiding etc can take care of that.
Okay, so more like popup windows in Finder in OS 8 and 9.
I'm still not convinced, though. Create a folder, put it in the sidebar and the Dock, move files in there, move files out of there; there's your shelf.
Like I said, I think the Desktop has taken the place of the Shelf, in most ways. Plop items onto it, pull items off of it. The Shelf just seemed a bit... cleaner, somehow. *shrug*
Edit: Aaaaaand, I was wrong above. Moving items to the Shelf did *not* move them out of their original position... but dragging them to a new location *did*. Odd. Sorry, I misremembered. It's been a while since I booted up the NeXTstation.
So it was more analogous to the Sidebar (easy access), but also had the 'move on drag off to new location' behavior that the Sidebar lacks.
Edit: Aaaaaand, I was wrong above. Moving items to the Shelf did *not* move them out of their original position... but dragging them to a new location *did*. Odd. Sorry, I misremembered. It's been a while since I booted up the NeXTstation.
Don't tell me that you still have a Next machine around ready to boot!?
I have used very little some Next machines during the past decade (more than ten years now) and I cannot forget how extraordinary they looked and worked compared to what was available at the time. I also have some memories from the Shelf and I would like to see it returning in OS X. Perhaps some improved version under Leopard. The Desktop is insufficient to replace it when you have a large number of files, or when you already have there some files that you don't want to move. Yes, you can use the Dock but from what I can remember the Shelf was far more efficient, intuitive and elegant as solution to this problem.
Cool, I can live with move/drop. Honestly, I'd be thrilled to see a good multi-level clipboard, or, better, the resurrection of the NeXT Shelf metaphor. Loved that, was sad to see it go.
I think the issue comes down to whether you want to open two windows or not. Opening extra windows (of really any sort) in Windows just adds to the mess on the screen, and it isn't a natural workflow... mostly because organizing the windows is a pain. It makes sense to resist opening any new windows at pretty much any cost.
On the Mac, I don't find it to ever be a problem. One window for source, one for destination, drag, drop, done. The *only* difference is opening that second window, you are other wise going through exactly the same steps. You still have to navigate between them, and if you have the destination folder open already, then that's one *less* time you have to get there.
Open/Save dialogs are *NOT* Finder windows. Again, that was a definite decision. Early builds of Rhapsody that I played with had something closer to what you're talking about, and it never really worked all that well. A dialog for open/save should do exactly that. The 'New Folder' button is the only addition in there. Otherwise, it's a simple view into the file system. I rather like that.
And no, I don't often find myself needing to rename something in the middle of a save. I can't say I can recall ever having to do that, actually. *shrug*
One thing I do wish they had, was an 'Open in Finder' in the open/save dialog to get from the dialog to a full Finder window. You can drag a folder or file from the Finder into the dialog to jump right to it, but you can't go the other way.
About the opensave dialogs being Finder views yes/no, I was referring to a technical point of view. It seems the open/save dialog is some kind of special stripped down version of the Finder :-)
I think it comes down to what you do on the computer. For example, I am working on a content management system. Here, it is vital that you organise files the right way. Designing the code is very iterative, this also counts for file management. So, you end up with moving files back and forth, renaming them, etc. I guess I'm more confronted with this whole thing?
An example of renaming a file; let's say I have Photoshop running. I want to save my file. I see the save dialog. Now I decide: "it's time to clean up the mess a bit". On Windows I then click on e.g two PSDs called "blahX.psd" and "blahY.psd" and rename them ito "blah_version1.psd" and "blah_version2.psd". Lastly, I actually save the new version as "blah_version3.psd".
Now why should I leave the Photoshop environment, open Finder, navigate to my project folder and rename them there? Isn't it very intuitive to be able to press ENTER on a filename inside the open/save dialog and rename them over there?
What was fun was comparing it to the early Rhapsody dev seedings, side by side.
And...?
About the opensave dialogs being Finder views yes/no, I was referring to a technical point of view. It seems the open/save dialog is some kind of special stripped down version of the Finder :-)
Well... sort of...
It's a bit like a specialized view (from the MVC concept, not a Finder View), with a very limited controller (New Folder). I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one... I feel that the Finder should be the only place one manipulates files and folders. An Open/Save dialog should do just that... open, or save. Not rename, not move, not be a piece of the Finder embedded into every application.
I think it comes down to what you do on the computer. For example, I am working on a content management system. Here, it is vital that you organise files the right way. Designing the code is very iterative, this also counts for file management. So, you end up with moving files back and forth, renaming them, etc. I guess I'm more confronted with this whole thing?
Could be. I see file organization as more top down... either I know ahead of time what a structure is going to look like, and I build it, or I wait until I have a good feel for what it needs to be, and do a refactoring at one shot. Either way, having a *full* Finder at my disposal beats any stripped down wannabe.
An example of renaming a file; let's say I have Photoshop running. I want to save my file. I see the save dialog. Now I decide: "it's time to clean up the mess a bit". On Windows I then click on e.g two PSDs called "blahX.psd" and "blahY.psd" and rename them ito "blah_version1.psd" and "blah_version2.psd". Lastly, I actually save the new version as "blah_version3.psd".
Yeeeeah, I can't say I ever do that.
Now why should I leave the Photoshop environment, open Finder, navigate to my project folder and rename them there? Isn't it very intuitive to be able to press ENTER on a filename inside the open/save dialog and rename them over there?
So now Enter/Return will rename, instead of triggering Open/Save? Well, there goes 22 years of consistency...
Seriously, this is sort of a slippery slope, IMO. We're still in an application-oriented world, and trying to bring in document-centric behavior willy-nilly is just asking for trouble. If you need to task A, go to the application that does that task. Trying to import mini-apps into various environments is a) never going to please everyone unless you bring in the *entire* app, b) will then annoy those who will never need the full app in such a limited environment. If you need to perform the task, go to the app that does it best, and let each app focus on its own requirements to the exclusion of others.
Not to mention that you're looking at merging UI behaviors that were never intended to be merged... look at the Enter/Return example above. In a Finder window, it triggers a rename, but in a dialog, it triggers the default button. So which would it trigger in a 'Finder dialog'? If the button, then it's not really a Finder window. If the rename, then now that dialog doesn't act like any other dialog. Impasse.