Man, you guys are getting ripped off in Europe. Why do you put up with this sort of cr4p? (In fact, this is the sort of thing that the EU folks and the consumer groups should be going after, instead of getting tangled in their underwear about iTunes and DRM.....)
Man, you guys are getting ripped off in Europe. Why do you put up with this sort of cr4p? (In fact, this is the sort of thing that the EU folks and the consumer groups should be going after, instead of getting tangled in their underwear about iTunes and DRM.....)
I'm pretty sure most of that goes to stuff like VAT/duties/taxes and higher operating expenses.
First, the non-US bit torrent crowd isn't into paying simply because outside of the States you can't buy these tvseries online. I strongly disagree with labeling this 'crowd' as cheap, 'free beer' people
Secondly, the advantage would be the general point of the apple-TV: getting content (moving image, pictures and music) easily from your computer to your TV/living room.
Third point: divx/xvid (simply meaning non-h264 mpeg4) is every bit as much a standard as mp3 is. Apple supports mp3. The iPod took off thanks to mp3 support. If they want the apple tv to really take off they need to support the most common format for downloadable video content.
There is a "big" bit torrent contingent here as well. But, it is mostly interested in "free" downloads. That's not a controversial statement.
As far as legal downloads go, very little is available in DivX. I'm not saying that there is none, but the big companies in this area don't use it.
MP3 is much more of a standard than Divx. That could change over time, but it's a long way from it yet.
You get ONE remote from the cable company. It handles all the DVR, navigation, VOD, etc stuff and sometimes even your TV (if its a common brand anyway). Going with TiVO OR any other 3rd party DVR gives you two remotes unless you just chuck the VOD or PPV services ... ... Apple is positioning aTV against the DVD player...not a DVR.
If all that Apple is going after is for ondemand movies, then I guess it would work ok. Though, they'd have to drop prices on all movies to about .99 cents before I would pick it over Netflix. With Netflix, I have 3 movies coming and going constantly for $19.95 (or whatever). In a typical month, I usually get around 20 movies (sometimes more). I've never bought a movie from iTMS, but it looks like their movies are about $9.99 minimum. So with $20/mo I spend on Netflix, I could get just 2 movies on iTMS.
Yes, iTMS movies are "instant", but the Netflix queue works well enough for me that I get so many movies so quickly, a day or two doesn't matter; not for that big of a price difference anyways. So if the iTV is positioned mainly for movie sales, I still think they're are completely beat in price.
"Going with TiVO OR any other 3rd party DVR gives you two remotes unless you just chuck the VOD or PPV services"
I only use the Tivo remote, I haven't touched my cable box remote in years. Actually I have no idea where it even is. It controls my TV (including TV power on/off), channel changing on the cable box via Tivo, and obviously the DVR features. For PPV/VOD services, I rarely use them [again, Netflix is my main source of movies]. But in this aspect, this is exactly where the iTV would step in and get some of my ongoing money. With the iTMS, there is no need for your cable co's VOD/PPV, is there? If I wanted an instant movie, I'd grab it from iTMS. Making it a perfect fit into this whole idea.
MP3 is much more of a standard than Divx. That could change over time, but it's a long way from it yet.
You keep saying that but i can't help but disagree?? What do you have to back this up?? What other video format is the standard for downloadable content??
Yes I know there is very little legal divx/xvid content, but that is exactly the same with mp3, and certainly was when the iPod was introduced. Also both codecs adhere to the MPEG4 standard. So I keep saying that divx/xvid is for downloadable video exactly what mp3 is for downloadable music.
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for piracy, but IT IS a major factor that people will want to use 'non-bought' video content with their apple tv. Right now, I'm convinced that over 90% of that content is in divx/xvid format, most commonly inside an AVI wrapper. When that content won't work with the apple tv it will have a BIG negative impact on sales.
Side note: for this exact reason most current DVD players also support divx/xvid!
I saw another very good comment on another board about this that I hadn't considered. How do you plan to connect your iTV to the net? DSL is horribly slow and wouldn't work, at least not at a reasonable speed. The only other big option besides the few that have sat. connections is through a cable modem.
I get about a 50% discount of my broadband connection from my cable co. by packaging it with my cable TV service. I tried a while back to only get their broadband [was going to get directv instead], but they wouldn't even sell it to me by itself. This probably depends on the location and company you use. But this is a very interesting question.
You keep saying that but i can't help but disagree?? What do you have to back this up?? What other video format is the standard for downloadable content??
Yes I know there is very little legal divx/xvid content, but that is exactly the same with mp3, and certainly was when the iPod was introduced. Also both codecs adhere to the MPEG4 standard. So I keep saying that divx/xvid is for downloadable video exactly what mp3 is for downloadable music.
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for piracy, but IT IS a major factor that people will want to use 'non-bought' video content with their apple tv. Right now, I'm convinced that over 90% of that content is in divx/xvid format, most commonly inside an AVI wrapper. When that content won't work with the apple tv it will have a BIG negative impact on sales.
Side note: for this exact reason most current DVD players also support divx/xvid!
dude you are completely right. DivX is massive. People might not be aware of it, but I'd say a huge majority of AVI's they watch are encoded in DivX/XviD. Heck I saw Notes in a Scandal and the last episode of 24 this week alone, and no surprise they're in XviD.
For example, Sony, the biggest consumer electronics company in THE WORLD, is advertising their new 8" portable DVD player on the sony europe site.
Navigate to DVD and then Portable DVD player. And what do you see in a big picture right next to the image of the thing "DIVX VIDEO". Note, it doesn't mention H264, WMV. It says DIVX. I wonder why...
Now that's also a £200 a product. What would I rather spend my money on?
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for piracy, but IT IS a major factor that people will want to use 'non-bought' video content with their apple tv.
And "bought" video, too, like EyeTV MPEG-2 recordings without the time-consuming export conversion for aTV compatibility that Elgato's FAQ is currently suggesting.
Maybe unsupported video formats won't be as dramatic for aTV as if the iPod hadn't support MP3 but I still think it's an important issue from the perspective of potential customers. Isn't it obvious that aTV has a higher chance of general success by supporting popular formats like DivX/XviD and MPEG-2, regardless of origin? Seems to me both the amount and diversity of aTV-compatible content is currently lacking. And who wants to feel coerced into making iTS purchases, if they even can!?
And "bought" video, too, like EyeTV MPEG-2 recordings without the time-consuming export conversion for aTV compatibility that Elgato's FAQ is currently suggesting.
Maybe unsupported video formats won't be as dramatic for aTV as if the iPod hadn't support MP3 but I still think it's an important issue from the perspective of potential customers. Isn't it obvious that aTV has a higher chance of general success by supporting popular formats like DivX/XviD and MPEG-2, regardless of origin? Seems to me both the amount and diversity of aTV-compatible content is currently lacking. And who wants to feel coerced into making iTS purchases, if they even can!?
Wow, seems like forever since anyone replied and agreed with me on this forum? thanks! Even if you'd disagreed just an acknowledgment makes me feel like it's worth posting since usually my comments seem drowned out by more prolific posters.
Yeah we were going to go crying under our desks, but we changed our minds. What the heck are we supposed to do.
At least you have Universal Health Care in most (all?) countries. The increasing health care costs are striking the final blow to US manufacturing and the middle class here and there is nothing we can do but get over it or die trying (sometimes literally). Our politicians are more than useless in this as well as other pressing matters for our country right now.
Wow, seems like forever since anyone replied and agreed with me on this forum? thanks! Even if you'd disagreed just an acknowledgment makes me feel like it's worth posting since usually my comments seem drowned out by more prolific posters.
You keep saying that but i can't help but disagree?? What do you have to back this up?? What other video format is the standard for downloadable content??
Yes I know there is very little legal divx/xvid content, but that is exactly the same with mp3, and certainly was when the iPod was introduced. Also both codecs adhere to the MPEG4 standard. So I keep saying that divx/xvid is for downloadable video exactly what mp3 is for downloadable music.
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for piracy, but IT IS a major factor that people will want to use 'non-bought' video content with their apple tv. Right now, I'm convinced that over 90% of that content is in divx/xvid format, most commonly inside an AVI wrapper. When that content won't work with the apple tv it will have a BIG negative impact on sales.
Side note: for this exact reason most current DVD players also support divx/xvid!
If you re-read my post on this, you will see that I'm not talking about people who download from bit torrents, when I talk about Apple's customers for this. We've gone through this already.
MP3 is a format that is used by illegal downloaders, yes, but it is also used on almost every legal device as well, including all of Apple's. MP3 is a format that is used by hundreds of millions of people around the world for legal use.
Divx is also used for legal use. I won't deny that. But, it isn't nearly as prevelant around the world, or even here in the US as MP3.
No one using MS's services for video use Divx. No one using Apple's services for downloads uses it either.
None of Apple's devices natively support it, and I'm not even sure if it can be installed on an iPod at all.
No one buying DVD's use it either, nor Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.
Cable and satellite don't use it, nor does broadcast.
You see where I'm going?
The point I'm making is that there is very little legal content encoded in Divx. So, as I said before, those who have Divx files will have to re-encode them to work on the AppleTv. Will they want to go through all that trouble, and possibly lose more quality? I doubt if many will.
I'm just saying, from that, I don't see most Divx users caring about this product much, unless, somehow, the codec can be added however it would be needed to work. There isn't, at least right now, as far as we know at this early time, a way to do that.
So, we actually agree on that, and it is what I have been saying to you.
That is, although the QuickTime Pro 'Movie to Apple TV' setting will happily transcode
much 1080p and 720p material to 720p (within the Apple TV H.264 specs), some
experiments show that this export tab will force a downrez to 540p, for example
for certain EyeTV -> HD Video export -> QuickTime AppleTV content.
Apple might choose to limit all ITunes content to 540p, or they may offer 720p
if they make their boxen sense that only HDMI/HDCP is used to connect to a big screen
and not the analog outputs.
What you are saying is correct.
It's interesting though, that both the Blu-Ray group, and the HD-DVD group have said that they will allow that hole, and the lack od HDCP, to be exploited until at least the Digital turnover date in 2009. So, we'll see what happens with that.
dude you are completely right. DivX is massive. People might not be aware of it, but I'd say a huge majority of AVI's they watch are encoded in DivX/XviD. Heck I saw Notes in a Scandal and the last episode of 24 this week alone, and no surprise they're in XviD.
For example, Sony, the biggest consumer electronics company in THE WORLD, is advertising their new 8" portable DVD player on the sony europe site.
Navigate to DVD and then Portable DVD player. And what do you see in a big picture right next to the image of the thing "DIVX VIDEO". Note, it doesn't mention H264, WMV. It says DIVX. I wonder why...
Now that's also a £200 a product. What would I rather spend my money on?
This is one of the fairly small number of products that do play Divx. Some of the DVD players do have that capability for CD-R/-RW disks, as this one does. For 249£
It doesn't mention H-264 because that's not a DVD or CD format, whereas Divx is.
But, this is not a Divx machine. No one would buy one (well, almost no one). This is a (quote from the web page follows) -
Quote:
DVD-R/-RW (video and VR modes), DVD-R Dual Layer (video mode), DVD+R/+RW and DVD+R Dual Layer
Audio CD and CD-R/RW with audio, MP3 and JPEG files
DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW and CD-R/-RW with DivX
playing machine.
That should be enough of the worlds dominant formats for the CD-DVD market.
Comments
.....And for that reason Apple won't get my £200.
£200 (= $400, approx)!?
Man, you guys are getting ripped off in Europe. Why do you put up with this sort of cr4p? (In fact, this is the sort of thing that the EU folks and the consumer groups should be going after, instead of getting tangled in their underwear about iTunes and DRM.....)
£200 (= $400, approx)!?
Man, you guys are getting ripped off in Europe. Why do you put up with this sort of cr4p? (In fact, this is the sort of thing that the EU folks and the consumer groups should be going after, instead of getting tangled in their underwear about iTunes and DRM.....)
I'm pretty sure most of that goes to stuff like VAT/duties/taxes and higher operating expenses.
Secondly, the advantage would be the general point of the apple-TV: getting content (moving image, pictures and music) easily from your computer to your TV/living room.
Third point: divx/xvid (simply meaning non-h264 mpeg4) is every bit as much a standard as mp3 is. Apple supports mp3. The iPod took off thanks to mp3 support. If they want the apple tv to really take off they need to support the most common format for downloadable video content.
There is a "big" bit torrent contingent here as well. But, it is mostly interested in "free" downloads. That's not a controversial statement.
As far as legal downloads go, very little is available in DivX. I'm not saying that there is none, but the big companies in this area don't use it.
MP3 is much more of a standard than Divx. That could change over time, but it's a long way from it yet.
You get ONE remote from the cable company. It handles all the DVR, navigation, VOD, etc stuff and sometimes even your TV (if its a common brand anyway). Going with TiVO OR any other 3rd party DVR gives you two remotes unless you just chuck the VOD or PPV services ... ... Apple is positioning aTV against the DVD player...not a DVR.
If all that Apple is going after is for ondemand movies, then I guess it would work ok. Though, they'd have to drop prices on all movies to about .99 cents before I would pick it over Netflix. With Netflix, I have 3 movies coming and going constantly for $19.95 (or whatever). In a typical month, I usually get around 20 movies (sometimes more). I've never bought a movie from iTMS, but it looks like their movies are about $9.99 minimum. So with $20/mo I spend on Netflix, I could get just 2 movies on iTMS.
Yes, iTMS movies are "instant", but the Netflix queue works well enough for me that I get so many movies so quickly, a day or two doesn't matter; not for that big of a price difference anyways. So if the iTV is positioned mainly for movie sales, I still think they're are completely beat in price.
"Going with TiVO OR any other 3rd party DVR gives you two remotes unless you just chuck the VOD or PPV services"
I only use the Tivo remote, I haven't touched my cable box remote in years. Actually I have no idea where it even is. It controls my TV (including TV power on/off), channel changing on the cable box via Tivo, and obviously the DVR features. For PPV/VOD services, I rarely use them [again, Netflix is my main source of movies]. But in this aspect, this is exactly where the iTV would step in and get some of my ongoing money. With the iTMS, there is no need for your cable co's VOD/PPV, is there? If I wanted an instant movie, I'd grab it from iTMS. Making it a perfect fit into this whole idea.
I still think it's just a natural fit.
MP3 is much more of a standard than Divx. That could change over time, but it's a long way from it yet.
Yes I know there is very little legal divx/xvid content, but that is exactly the same with mp3, and certainly was when the iPod was introduced. Also both codecs adhere to the MPEG4 standard. So I keep saying that divx/xvid is for downloadable video exactly what mp3 is for downloadable music.
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for piracy, but IT IS a major factor that people will want to use 'non-bought' video content with their apple tv. Right now, I'm convinced that over 90% of that content is in divx/xvid format, most commonly inside an AVI wrapper. When that content won't work with the apple tv it will have a BIG negative impact on sales.
Side note: for this exact reason most current DVD players also support divx/xvid!
Apple may not offer 720p material for widescreen, but perhaps only 960x540p.
That is, studios can invoke this tag to suppress any > 540p material from exiting
component outputs, which Apple TV has. Called the "analog hole", see:
http://broadcastengineering.com/mag/...cpr_redefined/
for more details.
That is, although the QuickTime Pro 'Movie to Apple TV' setting will happily transcode
much 1080p and 720p material to 720p (within the Apple TV H.264 specs), some
experiments show that this export tab will force a downrez to 540p, for example
for certain EyeTV -> HD Video export -> QuickTime AppleTV content.
Apple might choose to limit all ITunes content to 540p, or they may offer 720p
if they make their boxen sense that only HDMI/HDCP is used to connect to a big screen
and not the analog outputs.
I get about a 50% discount of my broadband connection from my cable co. by packaging it with my cable TV service. I tried a while back to only get their broadband [was going to get directv instead], but they wouldn't even sell it to me by itself. This probably depends on the location and company you use. But this is a very interesting question.
Anyone have ideas on this?
You keep saying that but i can't help but disagree?? What do you have to back this up?? What other video format is the standard for downloadable content??
Yes I know there is very little legal divx/xvid content, but that is exactly the same with mp3, and certainly was when the iPod was introduced. Also both codecs adhere to the MPEG4 standard. So I keep saying that divx/xvid is for downloadable video exactly what mp3 is for downloadable music.
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for piracy, but IT IS a major factor that people will want to use 'non-bought' video content with their apple tv. Right now, I'm convinced that over 90% of that content is in divx/xvid format, most commonly inside an AVI wrapper. When that content won't work with the apple tv it will have a BIG negative impact on sales.
Side note: for this exact reason most current DVD players also support divx/xvid!
dude you are completely right. DivX is massive. People might not be aware of it, but I'd say a huge majority of AVI's they watch are encoded in DivX/XviD. Heck I saw Notes in a Scandal and the last episode of 24 this week alone, and no surprise they're in XviD.
For example, Sony, the biggest consumer electronics company in THE WORLD, is advertising their new 8" portable DVD player on the sony europe site.
http://www.sonystyle.co.uk/
Navigate to DVD and then Portable DVD player. And what do you see in a big picture right next to the image of the thing "DIVX VIDEO". Note, it doesn't mention H264, WMV. It says DIVX. I wonder why...
Now that's also a £200 a product. What would I rather spend my money on?
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for piracy, but IT IS a major factor that people will want to use 'non-bought' video content with their apple tv.
And "bought" video, too, like EyeTV MPEG-2 recordings without the time-consuming export conversion for aTV compatibility that Elgato's FAQ is currently suggesting.
Maybe unsupported video formats won't be as dramatic for aTV as if the iPod hadn't support MP3 but I still think it's an important issue from the perspective of potential customers. Isn't it obvious that aTV has a higher chance of general success by supporting popular formats like DivX/XviD and MPEG-2, regardless of origin? Seems to me both the amount and diversity of aTV-compatible content is currently lacking. And who wants to feel coerced into making iTS purchases, if they even can!?
And "bought" video, too, like EyeTV MPEG-2 recordings without the time-consuming export conversion for aTV compatibility that Elgato's FAQ is currently suggesting.
Maybe unsupported video formats won't be as dramatic for aTV as if the iPod hadn't support MP3 but I still think it's an important issue from the perspective of potential customers. Isn't it obvious that aTV has a higher chance of general success by supporting popular formats like DivX/XviD and MPEG-2, regardless of origin? Seems to me both the amount and diversity of aTV-compatible content is currently lacking. And who wants to feel coerced into making iTS purchases, if they even can!?
100% agree.
100% agree.
Wow, seems like forever since anyone replied and agreed with me on this forum? thanks! Even if you'd disagreed just an acknowledgment makes me feel like it's worth posting since usually my comments seem drowned out by more prolific posters.
Man, you guys are getting ripped off in Europe. Why do you put up with this sort of cr4p?
Yeah we were going to go crying under our desks, but we changed our minds. What the heck are we supposed to do.
Yeah we were going to go crying under our desks, but we changed our minds. What the heck are we supposed to do.
At least you have Universal Health Care in most (all?) countries. The increasing health care costs are striking the final blow to US manufacturing and the middle class here and there is nothing we can do but get over it or die trying (sometimes literally). Our politicians are more than useless in this as well as other pressing matters for our country right now.
Wow, seems like forever since anyone replied and agreed with me on this forum? thanks! Even if you'd disagreed just an acknowledgment makes me feel like it's worth posting since usually my comments seem drowned out by more prolific posters.
I just wanted to say hello.
Yeah we were going to go crying under our desks, but we changed our minds. What the heck are we supposed to do.
Move? With adequate health insurance in tow?
Yeah we were going to go crying under our desks, but we changed our minds. What the heck are we supposed to do.
You could elect George Bush as Prime Minister, he will cut your taxes for you.
Yes I know there is very little legal divx/xvid content, but that is exactly the same with mp3, and certainly was when the iPod was introduced. Also both codecs adhere to the MPEG4 standard. So I keep saying that divx/xvid is for downloadable video exactly what mp3 is for downloadable music.
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for piracy, but IT IS a major factor that people will want to use 'non-bought' video content with their apple tv. Right now, I'm convinced that over 90% of that content is in divx/xvid format, most commonly inside an AVI wrapper. When that content won't work with the apple tv it will have a BIG negative impact on sales.
Side note: for this exact reason most current DVD players also support divx/xvid!
If you re-read my post on this, you will see that I'm not talking about people who download from bit torrents, when I talk about Apple's customers for this. We've gone through this already.
MP3 is a format that is used by illegal downloaders, yes, but it is also used on almost every legal device as well, including all of Apple's. MP3 is a format that is used by hundreds of millions of people around the world for legal use.
Divx is also used for legal use. I won't deny that. But, it isn't nearly as prevelant around the world, or even here in the US as MP3.
No one using MS's services for video use Divx. No one using Apple's services for downloads uses it either.
None of Apple's devices natively support it, and I'm not even sure if it can be installed on an iPod at all.
No one buying DVD's use it either, nor Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.
Cable and satellite don't use it, nor does broadcast.
You see where I'm going?
The point I'm making is that there is very little legal content encoded in Divx. So, as I said before, those who have Divx files will have to re-encode them to work on the AppleTv. Will they want to go through all that trouble, and possibly lose more quality? I doubt if many will.
I'm just saying, from that, I don't see most Divx users caring about this product much, unless, somehow, the codec can be added however it would be needed to work. There isn't, at least right now, as far as we know at this early time, a way to do that.
So, we actually agree on that, and it is what I have been saying to you.
Please be aware that because of a little technicality called the Image Constraint Token (ICT),
Apple may not offer 720p material for widescreen, but perhaps only 960x540p.
That is, studios can invoke this tag to suppress any > 540p material from exiting
component outputs, which Apple TV has. Called the "analog hole", see:
http://broadcastengineering.com/mag/...cpr_redefined/
for more details.
That is, although the QuickTime Pro 'Movie to Apple TV' setting will happily transcode
much 1080p and 720p material to 720p (within the Apple TV H.264 specs), some
experiments show that this export tab will force a downrez to 540p, for example
for certain EyeTV -> HD Video export -> QuickTime AppleTV content.
Apple might choose to limit all ITunes content to 540p, or they may offer 720p
if they make their boxen sense that only HDMI/HDCP is used to connect to a big screen
and not the analog outputs.
What you are saying is correct.
It's interesting though, that both the Blu-Ray group, and the HD-DVD group have said that they will allow that hole, and the lack od HDCP, to be exploited until at least the Digital turnover date in 2009. So, we'll see what happens with that.
dude you are completely right. DivX is massive. People might not be aware of it, but I'd say a huge majority of AVI's they watch are encoded in DivX/XviD. Heck I saw Notes in a Scandal and the last episode of 24 this week alone, and no surprise they're in XviD.
For example, Sony, the biggest consumer electronics company in THE WORLD, is advertising their new 8" portable DVD player on the sony europe site.
http://www.sonystyle.co.uk/
Navigate to DVD and then Portable DVD player. And what do you see in a big picture right next to the image of the thing "DIVX VIDEO". Note, it doesn't mention H264, WMV. It says DIVX. I wonder why...
Now that's also a £200 a product. What would I rather spend my money on?
This is one of the fairly small number of products that do play Divx. Some of the DVD players do have that capability for CD-R/-RW disks, as this one does. For 249£
It doesn't mention H-264 because that's not a DVD or CD format, whereas Divx is.
But, this is not a Divx machine. No one would buy one (well, almost no one). This is a (quote from the web page follows) -
DVD-R/-RW (video and VR modes), DVD-R Dual Layer (video mode), DVD+R/+RW and DVD+R Dual Layer
Audio CD and CD-R/RW with audio, MP3 and JPEG files
DVD-R/-RW/+R/+RW and CD-R/-RW with DivX
playing machine.
That should be enough of the worlds dominant formats for the CD-DVD market.