You are pretty good at ignoring several other reasons noted in this thread. Your post looks more like a strawman than anything else.
Call the wambulance.
This is a new incarnation of a very old thread. The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by irahodges
But really...whether it is a 17 year old that doesnt want the imac monitor or the 50 year old that has 2 23inchers, there is still a demand.
So you say. History seems to indicate otherwise. If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.
The reason why I know the target demographic here is 17 year olds is because no one but 17 year olds moan eternally about saving $300, maybe $400 on a computer (even though they're not really saving any money at all since the iMac gives you a display for the extra cash). The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.
The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.
End of what story? That's a horribly biased example. The Cube doesn't compare because it was a UP that was only $200 cheaper than a DP PowerMac. It was good for the uppity style-concious (which makes me wonder why Apple didn't sell more) space concious, but pretty much no one else.
Quote:
The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.
I'd say that's patently false because most of the rest of the consumer universe doesn't even bother with any Mac at all. That $300 is half the average sell price of a computer.
If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.
Just because they havn't released it doesn't mean there are not plans to or they are not considering it. That is what we are talking about here, do we think apple will release one?
I certainly think apple has the ability to release one with moderate to high impact to their position in the market. Whether they will or not....well, that's why I am begging for it!
This is a new incarnation of a very old thread. The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.
So you say. History seems to indicate otherwise. If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.
The reason why I know the target demographic here is 17 year olds is because no one but 17 year olds moan eternally about saving $300, maybe $400 on a computer (even though they're not really saving any money at all since the iMac gives you a display for the extra cash). The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.
Affordable for who? We're not all sitting on BMW budgets here. To get 2.33ghz, 2GB of RAM, and a 7600GT you have to work over $2500 and agree to buy a 24" display if you really want one or not. For $1400 Velocity Micro, a high end boutique maker with similar quality to Apple, will give you a 2.4ghz Core 2, 2GB of high end corsair RAM, a 320GB hard drive, the brand new 8600GT, both a 20x DVD-burner and 16x DVD-ROM, and a ton of room for expansion. You're free to buy the display and webcam you want. If it wasn't for Apple locking Mac OS X to its own hardware this wouldn't be a hard choice at all. Look, I'm willing to pay a premium for Apple and the OS, but I'm not stupid. I'm not going to pay a premium for hardware that doesn't do the job. Apple has the perfect case for the job, why waste it on only the super rich.
This is a new incarnation of a very old thread. The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.
So you say. History seems to indicate otherwise. If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.
The reason why I know the target demographic here is 17 year olds is because no one but 17 year olds moan eternally about saving $300, maybe $400 on a computer (even though they're not really saving any money at all since the iMac gives you a display for the extra cash). The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.
You're not getting it. It's not that people can't afford an iMac. It has nothing to do with that. People want a mid range tower between $999 and $1999 so they can pick up their own display, upgrade the graphics card, put a bigger HD in, and maybe update the optical drive. Oh and Apple needs an actual computer with a desktop chip in it.
If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for.
I simply don't believe you are that naive. I don't know why Apple has not released a prosumer mini tower yet, but I can't accept the insufficient demand argument, nor the "Apple can't compete with a mini tower" notion.
To me, you seem to be needlessly defensive about the iMac, as though many of us here would like to abolish it. Not so, except maybe for one or two. The furthest I'd go is to say that Apple would be better off with a mini tower than an iMac, but there is no reason Apple can't offer both. There are many iMac fans in the Apple camp, and there should be an iMac for as long as demand for it continues.
A mini tower, however, can be configured in many more ways than the iMac, and it is possible to get all the performance and features of any iMac with a mini tower, with display purchased separately. In addition, a mini tower would be far more attractive to potential switchers, as a form they are very familiar with. The only unique advantage of the iMac is small footprint, which I think explains the iMac following.
So, if I were CEO and had to choose between the two models, iMac or mini tower, there is no doubt which one I'd pick. To repeat however, there is no reason Apple cannot offer both.
You're not getting it. It's not that people can't afford an iMac. It has nothing to do with that. People want a mid range tower between $999 and $1999 so they can pick up their own display, upgrade the graphics card, put a bigger HD in, and maybe update the optical drive. Oh and Apple needs an actual computer with a desktop chip in it.
Oh, I'm getting it. Apple isn't interested in this niche market you speak of. The amount of people that actually fit into your target demographic and would consider buying a mac, I'm afraid, is ludicrously small. Apple has so far cultivated a highly coveted position in the computer market by delivering a consistent user experiences: a brand. The cost of building, marketing, and maintaining a low-end tower in their product lineup does not seem to be financially intelligent.
Moreover, what advantage do you get from upgrading the components in a computer that is already far more powerful than you know what to do with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy
I simply don't believe you are that naive. I don't know why Apple has not released a prosumer mini tower yet, but I can't accept the insufficient demand argument, nor the "Apple can't compete with a mini tower" notion.
To me, you seem to be needlessly defensive about the iMac, as though many of us here would like to abolish it. . . .
My message since the first post I made in this ridiculous, circle-jerk of a thread is that "prosumers" are idiots who measure themselves by their tools and not their work. I rip on consumer audiophiles, too, and for the same reasons. The iMac happens to exist currently, which makes it a baseline with which to compare. Based on the testamonials everyone seems to provide (or lack thereof), I am certain the iMac is enough computer for the audience begging for a low-end tower. When I was 17 I also liked playing around with computer hardware. Then I got over it. If playing around with computer hardware is truly what you want to do, your best bet is to get a cheap PC and boot Linux. Again, the computer hardware enthusiast market is exceedingly small. You may be lead to believe otherwise from hanging around on web forums that are respositories for these folks, but the market here is indeed a small one.
To reiterate on final time, it's not that Apple can't compete in the low-end tower market. It's that the rewards are too small to warrant the development and operations burden of introducing and maintaining another product line. Please, please study your history. It's not just the cube.
Oh, I'm getting it. Apple isn't interested in this niche market you speak of. The amount of people that actually fit into your target demographic and would consider buying a mac, I'm afraid, is ludicrously small. Apple has so far cultivated a highly coveted position in the computer market by delivering a consistent user experiences: a brand. The cost of building, marketing, and maintaining a low-end tower in their product lineup does not seem to be financially intelligent.
Moreover, what advantage do you get from upgrading the components in a computer that is already far more powerful than you know what to do with?
My message since the first post I made in this ridiculous, circle-jerk of a thread is that "prosumers" are idiots who measure themselves by their tools and not their work. I rip on consumer audiophiles, too, and for the same reasons. The iMac happens to exist currently, which makes it a baseline with which to compare. Based on the testamonials everyone seems to provide (or lack thereof), I am certain the iMac is enough computer for the audience begging for a low-end tower. When I was 17 I also liked playing around with computer hardware. Then I got over it. If playing around with computer hardware is truly what you want to do, your best bet is to get a cheap PC and boot Linux. Again, the computer hardware enthusiast market is exceedingly small. You may be lead to believe otherwise from hanging around on web forums that are respositories for these folks, but the market here is indeed a small one.
To reiterate on final time, it's not that Apple can't compete in the low-end tower market. It's that the rewards are too small to warrant the development and operations burden of introducing and maintaining another product line. Please, please study your history. It's not just the cube.
Well considering Macs run Windows now, they are viable alternative for games. And don't tell me to buy a Windows box just to play games, because it's not really ethical.
Moreover, what advantage do you get from upgrading the components in a computer that is already far more powerful than you know what to do with?
You say you are ripping into people for being snobs, but frankly, that's a very arrogant statement to presume whether someone knows what to do with the power. Pot. Kettle. Black.
Not for being snobs. . . for being idiots. I never claimed that I wasn't arrogant, either.
To Logan: if you want to play the latest FPS games on Apple hardware, then you'll want nothing short of the latest Mac Pro. Most games, however, will run fine on an iMac. Really, you guys have to realize that the market for the computer you want is small unless the price is very low, in which case there's not a lot of incentive for Apple to get into that market.
I think we fail to remember the Mac Mini. People were screaming for it but most said Apple wouldnt do it because they fit a niche market and wouldnt be beneficial to make us a cheaper desktop...well that happened.
And Splinemodel, why do you persist in trying to tell us what we want or need when you have no idea. You have your outrageous claims that "no one really needs a lowend tower" but thats like a grumpy old man claiming that we don't need to drive cars around when driving is what most of us would rather do. Excuse me for the rediculous analogy...couldnt think fast enough
It's not like I want a tower to just go and take out my video card and get a new one or do this and that to it...but like i said, I am running a PowerMac G4 quicksilver which is 5 years old and I love the fact that I can go out and get a larger hard drive or a new video card or some pci cards to make my system not seem so obsolete...eventually I will have to go out and get a new computer and it would be incredible if i could just get a new tower to go right in the spot of my old one (but slightly smaller of course)!
Since you had to ask, I do this because we have so many damn threads about low-end mac towers, and aside from the naive thread starter, it's always the same group of people in the echo chamber. Since you're new here I can't blame you for being suspicious.
The other aspect is that I'm exclaiming my near-certainty that Apple will not product this machine anytime soon, so moaning about is going to do you no good. If you want to actually prove me wrong, however, I'll give you the chance to tell me what you want to do with a low-end tower that you can't do with an iMac. Saying "I want to swap components" isn't going to cut it. Swaping components for the sake of swapping components is a niche activity and an idiotic one at that. I'm happy to trust the "honor system" here. By lying about this you're not really changing anything except the perception of this thread, which ultimately doesn't mean that much to me.
My personal advice to you is one word: eBay. About every 18-24 months sell the old iMac on eBay and buy a new one. It's surprisingly economical.
Really, you guys have to realize that the market for the computer you want is small unless the price is very low, in which case there's not a lot of incentive for Apple to get into that market.
Yea, it's only about, what... 20%? 30%? 40% of the PC market that Apple doesn't have? 95% of PCs sold are Windows, Apple wants a slice of that yet does not offer a consumer tower. Sure, the consumer tower has no market.
This is a new incarnation of a very old thread. The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.
So you say. History seems to indicate otherwise. If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.
The reason why I know the target demographic here is 17 year olds is because no one but 17 year olds moan eternally about saving $300, maybe $400 on a computer (even though they're not really saving any money at all since the iMac gives you a display for the extra cash). The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.
er, ummm, 17 year olds?
I'm not 17, will be 56 shortly, and $300 to $400 savings is important.
I have an iMac iSight 20" with a G5, and I still feel frustrated that I can't upgrade to 802.11n so I can use Apple's new AppleTV, without having to buy an Airport extreme. A slot would come in handy.
I will be upset when USB 3, a new Bluetooth standard, a new harddrive bus like SATA becomes common. Any arguments for an AIO other than it saves space is a total rationalization. Both the Mac mini and iMac are designed for niche markets, albeit well designed.
Neither of them offer the ease of use nor the flexibility of a standard tower or shuttle.
Since you had to ask, I do this because we have so many damn threads about low-end mac towers, and aside from the naive thread starter, it's always the same group of people in the echo chamber. Since you're new here I can't blame you for being suspicious.
The other aspect is that I'm exclaiming my near-certainty that Apple will not product this machine anytime soon, so moaning about is going to do you no good. If you want to actually prove me wrong, however, I'll give you the chance to tell me what you want to do with a low-end tower that you can't do with an iMac. Saying "I want to swap components" isn't going to cut it. Swaping components for the sake of swapping components is a niche activity and an idiotic one at that. I'm happy to trust the "honor system" here. By lying about this you're not really changing anything except the perception of this thread, which ultimately doesn't mean that much to me.
My personal advice to you is one word: eBay. About every 18-24 months sell the old iMac on eBay and buy a new one. It's surprisingly economical.
Last I looked there are a lot of PCI card manufacturers. Last I looked, PCI cards are even sold @ Walmart. Last I looked the PCI card industry in and of itself dwarfs Apples computer sales.
People don't swap components for the sake of swapping components. That has got to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard.
Yea, it's only about, what... 20%? 30%? 40% of the PC market that Apple doesn't have? 95% of PCs sold are Windows, Apple wants a slice of that yet does not offer a consumer tower. Sure, the consumer tower has no market.
Realistically, we're talking about a very small chunk. Not everyone who buys a low-end tower PC is interested in altering its components. I'd say that less than 2% of the PC market buys low-end towers with plans to modify them. Office buildings full of boilerplate PCs account for massive amounts of the overal market. The enthusiast market is quite small.
rickag: And which PCI cards do you need?
Anyway, I proposed a challenge to come up with real reasons why you need a low-end tower. So far, no real answers.
Realistically, we're talking about a very small chunk. Not everyone who buys a low-end tower PC is interested in altering its components. I'd say that less than 2% of the PC market buys low-end towers with plans to modify them. Office buildings full of boilerplate PCs account for massive amounts of the overal market. The enthusiast market is quite small.
rickag: And which PCI cards do you need?
Anyway, I proposed a challenge to come up with real reasons why you need a low-end tower. So far, no real answers.
RAM And HD upgrades are common
also apple has no system with desktop parts right now.
The macpro uses high cost FB-DIMMs. And the mini is a low end system with POS gma 950 and laptop parts.
Anyway, I proposed a challenge to come up with real reasons why you need a low-end tower. So far, no real answers.
Right now, none, my iMac isn't that old.
Later, if I wish to join the rest of the world when 802.11n becomes common, one of those would be nice. So I wouldn't have to create more clutter with an Airport Extreme priced at close to $200.
In the next year or so when SATA becomes the standard and I'm still rendering/editing off my current internal drive with Final Cut Express, maybe I'd like to buy an inexpensive card to add an SATA drive to improve my speed.
Who knows? Technology changes a lot more rapidly than I and many other people are willing to spend ON A NEW COMPUTER to keep up when a relatively inexpensive PCI card will do.
Use your common sense. It is a relatively easy concept that on the other side has become a common practice, which is obviously proved by the shear extrodinarily numbers of PCI cards available for a huge variety of purposes. Google a couple of sites, here's just one.
I agree, we find that more and more people can easily buy RAM and Hard Drives from dealram, NewEgg, or some mass online store like nexttag. This is especially handy when you look at how much Apple charges for upgraded built-to-order RAM and Hard Drives. You can save $300 or $400 just with that (depending on what you want in HD space and memory).
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag
Right now, none, my iMac isn't that old.
Later, if I wish to join the rest of the world when 802.11n becomes common, one of those would be nice. So I wouldn't have to create more clutter with an Airport Extreme priced at close to $200.
Who knows? Technology changes a lot more rapidly than I and many other people are willing to spend ON A NEW COMPUTER to keep up when a relatively inexpensive PCI card will do.
I will share my agreement with rickag as well. I have a 5 year old powermac with usb 1.1 ports...I would HAVE to purchase a new computer right now if it werent for pci slots...usb 1.1 is soooo slow! I have 2 of my slots filled right now with a usb 2.0 card and an extra firewire card!
I don't think the market most of us are suggesting with a low-end tower is necessarily for enthusiasts that want to experiment and swap out things to feel like they built their computer. Rather, I believe the low-end tower fills the market that needs or DESIRES expandability. The Mac Pro is the ONLY computer apple offers that provide expandability without the loss of desk space from external HDs, airport express, usb splitters, etc.
What I tried to explain earlier is that the consumers are starting to understand technology a lot better. We are seeing HD in peoples living rooms, ipods all over the place, and ALL sorts of add-ons for computers (they wouldnt keep being built if people werent buying them). It is just a rising trend that more and more people know more about technology. Because of that...this would be a good market for those who understand technology.
On the other hand, it does not mean this computer is only for people who know what they are doing either. Believe it or not, there are consumers that want a mac, are attracted to the mac mini, yet are not convinced to buy because they want something more. The whole BYOKDM (bring your own keyboard, display, and mouse) with the mac mini wouldnt be much of a marketing ploy if apple didn't realize people already have this stuff and don't need them (plus it saves cost). But take it to the next level, and there are still people that have a display and don't want to get rid of it yet or don't need to if it will save them some extra cash while getting them better components. I believe people would easily make this trade, I would!
We live in a consumer world where people want more cheaper, and that is what we are talking about here. It isn't about what we NEED. Maybe for some but not most of us. It's about what we demand from apple to make our lives easier...and it could logically happen if enough show they want that. I think many have already stated that on the PC side that is a huge market, why would it be any different for apple?
Comments
You are pretty good at ignoring several other reasons noted in this thread. Your post looks more like a strawman than anything else.
Call the wambulance.
This is a new incarnation of a very old thread. The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.
But really...whether it is a 17 year old that doesnt want the imac monitor or the 50 year old that has 2 23inchers, there is still a demand.
So you say. History seems to indicate otherwise. If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.
The reason why I know the target demographic here is 17 year olds is because no one but 17 year olds moan eternally about saving $300, maybe $400 on a computer (even though they're not really saving any money at all since the iMac gives you a display for the extra cash). The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.
The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.
End of what story? That's a horribly biased example. The Cube doesn't compare because it was a UP that was only $200 cheaper than a DP PowerMac. It was good for the uppity style-concious (which makes me wonder why Apple didn't sell more) space concious, but pretty much no one else.
The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.
I'd say that's patently false because most of the rest of the consumer universe doesn't even bother with any Mac at all. That $300 is half the average sell price of a computer.
If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.
Just because they havn't released it doesn't mean there are not plans to or they are not considering it. That is what we are talking about here, do we think apple will release one?
I certainly think apple has the ability to release one with moderate to high impact to their position in the market. Whether they will or not....well, that's why I am begging for it!
Call the wambulance.
This is a new incarnation of a very old thread. The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.
So you say. History seems to indicate otherwise. If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.
The reason why I know the target demographic here is 17 year olds is because no one but 17 year olds moan eternally about saving $300, maybe $400 on a computer (even though they're not really saving any money at all since the iMac gives you a display for the extra cash). The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.
Affordable for who? We're not all sitting on BMW budgets here. To get 2.33ghz, 2GB of RAM, and a 7600GT you have to work over $2500 and agree to buy a 24" display if you really want one or not. For $1400 Velocity Micro, a high end boutique maker with similar quality to Apple, will give you a 2.4ghz Core 2, 2GB of high end corsair RAM, a 320GB hard drive, the brand new 8600GT, both a 20x DVD-burner and 16x DVD-ROM, and a ton of room for expansion. You're free to buy the display and webcam you want. If it wasn't for Apple locking Mac OS X to its own hardware this wouldn't be a hard choice at all. Look, I'm willing to pay a premium for Apple and the OS, but I'm not stupid. I'm not going to pay a premium for hardware that doesn't do the job. Apple has the perfect case for the job, why waste it on only the super rich.
Call the wambulance.
This is a new incarnation of a very old thread. The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.
So you say. History seems to indicate otherwise. If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.
The reason why I know the target demographic here is 17 year olds is because no one but 17 year olds moan eternally about saving $300, maybe $400 on a computer (even though they're not really saving any money at all since the iMac gives you a display for the extra cash). The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.
You're not getting it. It's not that people can't afford an iMac. It has nothing to do with that. People want a mid range tower between $999 and $1999 so they can pick up their own display, upgrade the graphics card, put a bigger HD in, and maybe update the optical drive. Oh and Apple needs an actual computer with a desktop chip in it.
If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for.
I simply don't believe you are that naive. I don't know why Apple has not released a prosumer mini tower yet, but I can't accept the insufficient demand argument, nor the "Apple can't compete with a mini tower" notion.
To me, you seem to be needlessly defensive about the iMac, as though many of us here would like to abolish it. Not so, except maybe for one or two. The furthest I'd go is to say that Apple would be better off with a mini tower than an iMac, but there is no reason Apple can't offer both. There are many iMac fans in the Apple camp, and there should be an iMac for as long as demand for it continues.
A mini tower, however, can be configured in many more ways than the iMac, and it is possible to get all the performance and features of any iMac with a mini tower, with display purchased separately. In addition, a mini tower would be far more attractive to potential switchers, as a form they are very familiar with. The only unique advantage of the iMac is small footprint, which I think explains the iMac following.
So, if I were CEO and had to choose between the two models, iMac or mini tower, there is no doubt which one I'd pick. To repeat however, there is no reason Apple cannot offer both.
You're not getting it. It's not that people can't afford an iMac. It has nothing to do with that. People want a mid range tower between $999 and $1999 so they can pick up their own display, upgrade the graphics card, put a bigger HD in, and maybe update the optical drive. Oh and Apple needs an actual computer with a desktop chip in it.
Oh, I'm getting it. Apple isn't interested in this niche market you speak of. The amount of people that actually fit into your target demographic and would consider buying a mac, I'm afraid, is ludicrously small. Apple has so far cultivated a highly coveted position in the computer market by delivering a consistent user experiences: a brand. The cost of building, marketing, and maintaining a low-end tower in their product lineup does not seem to be financially intelligent.
Moreover, what advantage do you get from upgrading the components in a computer that is already far more powerful than you know what to do with?
I simply don't believe you are that naive. I don't know why Apple has not released a prosumer mini tower yet, but I can't accept the insufficient demand argument, nor the "Apple can't compete with a mini tower" notion.
To me, you seem to be needlessly defensive about the iMac, as though many of us here would like to abolish it. . . .
My message since the first post I made in this ridiculous, circle-jerk of a thread is that "prosumers" are idiots who measure themselves by their tools and not their work. I rip on consumer audiophiles, too, and for the same reasons. The iMac happens to exist currently, which makes it a baseline with which to compare. Based on the testamonials everyone seems to provide (or lack thereof), I am certain the iMac is enough computer for the audience begging for a low-end tower. When I was 17 I also liked playing around with computer hardware. Then I got over it. If playing around with computer hardware is truly what you want to do, your best bet is to get a cheap PC and boot Linux. Again, the computer hardware enthusiast market is exceedingly small. You may be lead to believe otherwise from hanging around on web forums that are respositories for these folks, but the market here is indeed a small one.
To reiterate on final time, it's not that Apple can't compete in the low-end tower market. It's that the rewards are too small to warrant the development and operations burden of introducing and maintaining another product line. Please, please study your history. It's not just the cube.
Oh, I'm getting it. Apple isn't interested in this niche market you speak of. The amount of people that actually fit into your target demographic and would consider buying a mac, I'm afraid, is ludicrously small. Apple has so far cultivated a highly coveted position in the computer market by delivering a consistent user experiences: a brand. The cost of building, marketing, and maintaining a low-end tower in their product lineup does not seem to be financially intelligent.
Moreover, what advantage do you get from upgrading the components in a computer that is already far more powerful than you know what to do with?
My message since the first post I made in this ridiculous, circle-jerk of a thread is that "prosumers" are idiots who measure themselves by their tools and not their work. I rip on consumer audiophiles, too, and for the same reasons. The iMac happens to exist currently, which makes it a baseline with which to compare. Based on the testamonials everyone seems to provide (or lack thereof), I am certain the iMac is enough computer for the audience begging for a low-end tower. When I was 17 I also liked playing around with computer hardware. Then I got over it. If playing around with computer hardware is truly what you want to do, your best bet is to get a cheap PC and boot Linux. Again, the computer hardware enthusiast market is exceedingly small. You may be lead to believe otherwise from hanging around on web forums that are respositories for these folks, but the market here is indeed a small one.
To reiterate on final time, it's not that Apple can't compete in the low-end tower market. It's that the rewards are too small to warrant the development and operations burden of introducing and maintaining another product line. Please, please study your history. It's not just the cube.
Well considering Macs run Windows now, they are viable alternative for games. And don't tell me to buy a Windows box just to play games, because it's not really ethical.
Moreover, what advantage do you get from upgrading the components in a computer that is already far more powerful than you know what to do with?
You say you are ripping into people for being snobs, but frankly, that's a very arrogant statement to presume whether someone knows what to do with the power. Pot. Kettle. Black.
To Logan: if you want to play the latest FPS games on Apple hardware, then you'll want nothing short of the latest Mac Pro. Most games, however, will run fine on an iMac. Really, you guys have to realize that the market for the computer you want is small unless the price is very low, in which case there's not a lot of incentive for Apple to get into that market.
And Splinemodel, why do you persist in trying to tell us what we want or need when you have no idea. You have your outrageous claims that "no one really needs a lowend tower" but thats like a grumpy old man claiming that we don't need to drive cars around when driving is what most of us would rather do. Excuse me for the rediculous analogy...couldnt think fast enough
It's not like I want a tower to just go and take out my video card and get a new one or do this and that to it...but like i said, I am running a PowerMac G4 quicksilver which is 5 years old and I love the fact that I can go out and get a larger hard drive or a new video card or some pci cards to make my system not seem so obsolete...eventually I will have to go out and get a new computer and it would be incredible if i could just get a new tower to go right in the spot of my old one (but slightly smaller of course)!
The other aspect is that I'm exclaiming my near-certainty that Apple will not product this machine anytime soon, so moaning about is going to do you no good. If you want to actually prove me wrong, however, I'll give you the chance to tell me what you want to do with a low-end tower that you can't do with an iMac. Saying "I want to swap components" isn't going to cut it. Swaping components for the sake of swapping components is a niche activity and an idiotic one at that. I'm happy to trust the "honor system" here. By lying about this you're not really changing anything except the perception of this thread, which ultimately doesn't mean that much to me.
My personal advice to you is one word: eBay. About every 18-24 months sell the old iMac on eBay and buy a new one. It's surprisingly economical.
Really, you guys have to realize that the market for the computer you want is small unless the price is very low, in which case there's not a lot of incentive for Apple to get into that market.
Yea, it's only about, what... 20%? 30%? 40% of the PC market that Apple doesn't have? 95% of PCs sold are Windows, Apple wants a slice of that yet does not offer a consumer tower. Sure, the consumer tower has no market.
Call the wambulance.
This is a new incarnation of a very old thread. The cube didn't sell well, and the current iMacs are quite affordable and quite usable to produce high-end work. end of story.
So you say. History seems to indicate otherwise. If Apple felt it would boost their overall position in the market I'm sure they'd release the computer you're looking for. News flash: they haven't.
The reason why I know the target demographic here is 17 year olds is because no one but 17 year olds moan eternally about saving $300, maybe $400 on a computer (even though they're not really saving any money at all since the iMac gives you a display for the extra cash). The rest of the consumer universe gets together the extra $300 and buys the iMac during the same time that the 17 year olds are moaning about it.
er, ummm, 17 year olds?
I'm not 17, will be 56 shortly, and $300 to $400 savings is important.
I have an iMac iSight 20" with a G5, and I still feel frustrated that I can't upgrade to 802.11n so I can use Apple's new AppleTV, without having to buy an Airport extreme. A slot would come in handy.
I will be upset when USB 3, a new Bluetooth standard, a new harddrive bus like SATA becomes common. Any arguments for an AIO other than it saves space is a total rationalization. Both the Mac mini and iMac are designed for niche markets, albeit well designed.
Neither of them offer the ease of use nor the flexibility of a standard tower or shuttle.
Since you had to ask, I do this because we have so many damn threads about low-end mac towers, and aside from the naive thread starter, it's always the same group of people in the echo chamber. Since you're new here I can't blame you for being suspicious.
The other aspect is that I'm exclaiming my near-certainty that Apple will not product this machine anytime soon, so moaning about is going to do you no good. If you want to actually prove me wrong, however, I'll give you the chance to tell me what you want to do with a low-end tower that you can't do with an iMac. Saying "I want to swap components" isn't going to cut it. Swaping components for the sake of swapping components is a niche activity and an idiotic one at that. I'm happy to trust the "honor system" here. By lying about this you're not really changing anything except the perception of this thread, which ultimately doesn't mean that much to me.
My personal advice to you is one word: eBay. About every 18-24 months sell the old iMac on eBay and buy a new one. It's surprisingly economical.
Last I looked there are a lot of PCI card manufacturers. Last I looked, PCI cards are even sold @ Walmart. Last I looked the PCI card industry in and of itself dwarfs Apples computer sales.
People don't swap components for the sake of swapping components. That has got to be the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard.
Yea, it's only about, what... 20%? 30%? 40% of the PC market that Apple doesn't have? 95% of PCs sold are Windows, Apple wants a slice of that yet does not offer a consumer tower. Sure, the consumer tower has no market.
Realistically, we're talking about a very small chunk. Not everyone who buys a low-end tower PC is interested in altering its components. I'd say that less than 2% of the PC market buys low-end towers with plans to modify them. Office buildings full of boilerplate PCs account for massive amounts of the overal market. The enthusiast market is quite small.
rickag: And which PCI cards do you need?
Anyway, I proposed a challenge to come up with real reasons why you need a low-end tower. So far, no real answers.
Realistically, we're talking about a very small chunk. Not everyone who buys a low-end tower PC is interested in altering its components. I'd say that less than 2% of the PC market buys low-end towers with plans to modify them. Office buildings full of boilerplate PCs account for massive amounts of the overal market. The enthusiast market is quite small.
rickag: And which PCI cards do you need?
Anyway, I proposed a challenge to come up with real reasons why you need a low-end tower. So far, no real answers.
RAM And HD upgrades are common
also apple has no system with desktop parts right now.
The macpro uses high cost FB-DIMMs. And the mini is a low end system with POS gma 950 and laptop parts.
...
rickag: And which PCI cards do you need?
Anyway, I proposed a challenge to come up with real reasons why you need a low-end tower. So far, no real answers.
Right now, none, my iMac isn't that old.
Later, if I wish to join the rest of the world when 802.11n becomes common, one of those would be nice. So I wouldn't have to create more clutter with an Airport Extreme priced at close to $200.
In the next year or so when SATA becomes the standard and I'm still rendering/editing off my current internal drive with Final Cut Express, maybe I'd like to buy an inexpensive card to add an SATA drive to improve my speed.
Who knows? Technology changes a lot more rapidly than I and many other people are willing to spend ON A NEW COMPUTER to keep up when a relatively inexpensive PCI card will do.
Use your common sense. It is a relatively easy concept that on the other side has become a common practice, which is obviously proved by the shear extrodinarily numbers of PCI cards available for a huge variety of purposes. Google a couple of sites, here's just one.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...2+PCI+&x=0&y=0
there 6 pages of USB 2 PCI cards(some oddball stuff thrown in, but mostly PCI cards) and 106 options. SOMEONE IS BUYING THIS STUFF IN MASS QUANTITIES.
RAM And HD upgrades are common
I agree, we find that more and more people can easily buy RAM and Hard Drives from dealram, NewEgg, or some mass online store like nexttag. This is especially handy when you look at how much Apple charges for upgraded built-to-order RAM and Hard Drives. You can save $300 or $400 just with that (depending on what you want in HD space and memory).
Right now, none, my iMac isn't that old.
Later, if I wish to join the rest of the world when 802.11n becomes common, one of those would be nice. So I wouldn't have to create more clutter with an Airport Extreme priced at close to $200.
Who knows? Technology changes a lot more rapidly than I and many other people are willing to spend ON A NEW COMPUTER to keep up when a relatively inexpensive PCI card will do.
I will share my agreement with rickag as well. I have a 5 year old powermac with usb 1.1 ports...I would HAVE to purchase a new computer right now if it werent for pci slots...usb 1.1 is soooo slow! I have 2 of my slots filled right now with a usb 2.0 card and an extra firewire card!
I don't think the market most of us are suggesting with a low-end tower is necessarily for enthusiasts that want to experiment and swap out things to feel like they built their computer. Rather, I believe the low-end tower fills the market that needs or DESIRES expandability. The Mac Pro is the ONLY computer apple offers that provide expandability without the loss of desk space from external HDs, airport express, usb splitters, etc.
What I tried to explain earlier is that the consumers are starting to understand technology a lot better. We are seeing HD in peoples living rooms, ipods all over the place, and ALL sorts of add-ons for computers (they wouldnt keep being built if people werent buying them). It is just a rising trend that more and more people know more about technology. Because of that...this would be a good market for those who understand technology.
On the other hand, it does not mean this computer is only for people who know what they are doing either. Believe it or not, there are consumers that want a mac, are attracted to the mac mini, yet are not convinced to buy because they want something more. The whole BYOKDM (bring your own keyboard, display, and mouse) with the mac mini wouldnt be much of a marketing ploy if apple didn't realize people already have this stuff and don't need them (plus it saves cost). But take it to the next level, and there are still people that have a display and don't want to get rid of it yet or don't need to if it will save them some extra cash while getting them better components. I believe people would easily make this trade, I would!
We live in a consumer world where people want more cheaper, and that is what we are talking about here. It isn't about what we NEED. Maybe for some but not most of us. It's about what we demand from apple to make our lives easier...and it could logically happen if enough show they want that. I think many have already stated that on the PC side that is a huge market, why would it be any different for apple?