OK, so if you quit iCal, explain to me again how you expect iCal to show the current date? Do you also expect it to notify you of reminders.....when it is not running? I suggest removing the iCal icon from your Dock so the July 17th date doesn't bother you.
I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, but I'm just responding to your frustration when you said
There is nothing to sort out.
You can't be serious.
It is a huge design mistake that apple shows an incorrect date prominently on the screen. The easy fix is to not include a date in the icon. The best fix is a light-weight background process that automatically updates the icon so that an incorrect date is never displayed.
It is a huge design mistake that apple shows an incorrect date prominently on the screen. The easy fix is to not include a date in the icon. The best fix is a light-weight background process that automatically updates the icon so that an incorrect date is never displayed.
Ummm. Didn't I already say that iCal is it's own lightweight auto-updating process for the icon? Just close the main window and off you go?
The date is the day iCal was originally released, 17 July. I think if one person in 5 years bitches about it, it probably isn't a real problem, just personal. Why don't you take up windmill tilting for Tog???
It shouldn't be easy (or even possible) to have the icon show an incorrect date. The date should always be correct or not there at all.
Guys, guys, guys....it is not showing an incorrect date. It is showing a picture (a graphic). AN ICON!!! That picture happens to be of the July 17th date. Please do not take that literally. It is an icon that represents a calendar app. Get it? Only when the app is started and running does it USE the icon to actually show the correct date.
Is this really so hard to understand? I mean, really....the hard disk icon on my desktop looks like a desktop hard drive, not a laptop one... OMG!!! The icon is not representing what my MBP hard drive looks like!!!!!
Wow, why such contempt for fixing this interface mistake?
Can you imagine if the menu bar clock showed an incorrect time if a user accidentally quit a clock application? If part of an interface is used to show the date, it should always be correct. Purposefully displaying an incorrect date in the same location that a person uses to see the real date? That is a bad interface.
Personally I'm glad the attitude expressed in the last two posts isn't prevalent at apple. Otherwise, we probably would have a menu-bar clock that purposefully showed an incorrect time, perhaps 12:34. But why stop there? The Mail.app icon could show that you always have seven new messages when the application is closed. iChat, when not running, could also pretend that you have new messages.
I fully anticipate that this mistake will be addressed in a future release. Obviously someone was asleep at the wheel when designing iCal and it's icon.
Wow, why such contempt for fixing this interface mistake?
Can you imagine if the menu bar clock showed an incorrect time if a user accidentally quit a clock application?
Have you seen the icon for Date/Time? It always shows 12:15 (I think). OMG, OMG, why is it not always showing the current time???? Because it is an icon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
If part of an interface is used to show the date, it should always be correct. Purposefully displaying an incorrect date in the same location that a person uses to see the real date? That is a bad interface.
So along those lines, they should change the Display icon to always show what is currently being shown on your display???
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
But why stop there? The Mail.app icon could show that you always have seven new messages when the application is closed.
Nope, it will show the correct new mail when it is closed. Again, learn the difference between closed and quit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
I fully anticipate that this mistake will be addressed in a future release. Obviously someone was asleep at the wheel when designing iCal and it's icon.
I hope so too. I hope they change the icon to something completely different so we don't have to keep hearing from people who confuse an icon with a running program.
I'm still baffled by your contempt for the idea of not displaying and incorrect date in the dock.
And if you're going to nit-pick closed vs. quit, at least get it right. To most people, close=exit=quit when referring to an application. Your nit-pick is only correct when talking about a window.
Either way, why argue so vehemently against fixing the icons/interface so that an incorrect date isn't shown to users? Why be so militantly attached to displaying an incorrect date in the dock? It really is quite baffling that anyone would argue against fixing it.
And if you're going to nit-pick closed vs. quit, at least get it right. To most people, close=exit=quit when referring to an application. Your nit-pick is only correct when talking about a window.
I got it right. Usually it's Windows users that don't get it right. I understand though, it took me a while to "get" the difference between close and quit after I switched.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
Either way, why argue so vehemently against fixing the icons/interface so that an incorrect date isn't shown to users? Why be so militantly attached to displaying an incorrect date in the dock? It really is quite baffling that anyone would argue against fixing it.
I don't think I'm arguing very "vehemently" or being "militant". Maybe I just don't understand how someone can get so hung up on something that is simply an icon. Yes, I see that the icon is showing July 17th, but in realizing that it is just an icon, I don't wake up every morning thinking it is July 17th. Especially since I always have iCal showing the correct date
For the longest time I used to be in the habit of just hitting Comm+Q to "close" my applications. Then I saw the date switch back to July 17th and I was like "WTF?" But when I learned the difference between closing and quitting, I just closed the app, not quit the app.
Like you said, they may address this "interface mistake" when Leopard ships.
Until then, you can do what I suggested to another poster who said 1) He did not really use iCal but 2) Was really annoyed by this. I told him to remove the icon from the dock.
The prominent display of an incorrect date is something that should be fixed. Why argue against it?
If nobody had argued against fixing the incorrectly displayed date, there would have been no more posts on the subject.
******
Off topic: Close and quit are synonymous in the computing world when referring to an application/program/executable/binary. Yes, all of us Mac geeks know that there are more specific connotations when referring to macintosh application windows. But when someone, even a mac uber-geek, refers to closing an application they generally mean to quit the application entirely. If they mention closing of a window, they are likely to be refering the window and not the app.
But the point is that nit-picking (and getting the nit-pick wrong) is a pointless endeavor. The terms are hopelessly overloaded for use in a forum like this. Without knowing your audience perfectly, it is impossible to know from where their lexicon is derived. Personally, i deal with a dozen OS on a daily basis and use the term "close" loosely. When wanting to specify the mac specific action of closing open windows but not the app, I say so explicitly. Lambasting a person for being exposed to more than the mac simply makes one look naive.
The prominent display of an incorrect date is something that should be fixed. Why argue against it?
If I thought Apple was displaying the date incorrectly I would argue against it. But that's where we're different. You look at the iCal icon and you take it as THE date. And complain it is wrong. I look at the iCal icon and see just an icon with a picture of A date. Whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
If nobody had argued against fixing the incorrectly displayed date, there would have been no more posts on the subject.
Yeah, this comes up from time to time with a few people. In another thread, once it was explained what was going on the general reaction is, "Oh...OK, cool." But this time around, I guess you and Ireland see it differently. No worries, there's always Apple feedback.
If I thought Apple was displaying the date incorrectly I would argue against it. But that's where we're different. You look at the iCal icon and you take it as THE date. And complain it is wrong. I look at the iCal icon and see just an icon with a picture of A date. Whatever.
Please don't assume that my argument is based on my own interpretation of the icon. I don't even use iCal.
This personalization of interface decisions is where you're going astray. A hallmark of a good interaction design is to divorce yourself from the design process. It shouldn't matter how anyone personally interprets things. Nor should personal preferences come into play.
Instead interface designers should take the entire userbase into account and make decisions accordingly. Users seldom resemble geeks on internet boards or professional interaction designers. Hence, personal preference and interpretation ofter operate more as confounders than aids to the design process. This is preached from day one in HCI programs.
Back to the case at hand:
A good percentage of users incorrectly assume that the interface is displaying a correct date. After all, why would apple purposefully choose to show an incorrect date?
Typical scenario:
Normal User: "It was right the last time I checked it, why wouldn't it be right now? See, my computer still has the correct date so why is the dock wrong?"
Support Staff: "That calendar is only correct if it has a tiny little triangle under it."
Normal User: "Why?"
Support Staff: "Because."
Don't kid yourself, many many users are this clueless and worse. It is a hopeless proposition to explain why the date is wrong and how to prevent it from being wrong in the future. The only solution is for apple to fix the problem.
A good percentage of users incorrectly assume that the interface is displaying a correct date. After all, why would apple purposefully choose to show an incorrect date?
Wow, that's quite a statement. I'm sure you have something to back that up with. I'll look for your response. <not holding breath>
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
Typical scenario:
Normal User: "It was right the last time I checked it, why wouldn't it be right now? See, my computer still has the correct date so why is the dock wrong?"
Support Staff: "That calendar is only correct if it has a tiny little triangle under it."
Normal User: "Why?"
Support Staff: "Because."
Yeah, I'm sure that is a typical scenario. Apple must get this all the time.
Apparently plenty of people are interested in preventing their calendar from displaying the wrong date.
Keep in mind that the most clueless of users aren't even savy enough to know how to post about this topic on the web. Most will just live with a sometimes wrong calendar until apple gets around to fixing it.
Apparently plenty of people are interested in preventing their calendar from displaying the wrong date.
Thanks for the link. We're up to what...about 10? 15 users with this "problem"? Somehow I don't think this is near the top of Apple's list of things that "needs fixed."
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
Keep in mind that the most clueless of users aren't even savy enough to know how to post about this topic on the web.
No argument there. They are typically the same users who complain that they cannot resize their windows except from the bottom right. Or the "maximize" button does not maximize to full screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler
Most will just live with a sometimes wrong calendar until apple gets around to fixing it.
It has become clear that you're more interested in not looking "wrong" than with evaluating the interface issues at hand.
That type of discussion doesn't interest me so I'll bow out of this thread.
You're right about me not having any interest in evaluating interface issues. This whole discussion came about because a poster thought that his Mail icon should show him the number of new emails he had...and the iCal icon should show the correct date, even when these apps were not running. If you contend that some people get confused by having a date (any date) as an icon, I agree with you...it is quite obvious that some people do. I'm just saying that this confusion does not equate to a problem in the way the iCal app functions.....
....other than what I've pointed out elsewhere.....which I think is a real problem. But that could be just me.
I'll bow out too. But thanks for helping me get my post count up.....
It has become clear that you're more interested in not looking "wrong" than with evaluating the interface issues at hand.
That type of discussion doesn't interest me so I'll bow out of this thread.
There are three disconnects here.
1) There is nothing wrong with the way the application behaves. If I quit an application then I don't want it doing anything. Updating icons, whatever. I really hate applications in Windows that has a taskbar widget that is configured on by default and they hide (or omit) the checkbox to turn it off.
2) Minimizing the window is not synonymous with quitting the application in either the Windows or Mac environment. The difference is that Windows users call it minimize and Mac users call it closed.
3) There is something wrong with the icon. But on the list of usability problems its rather low. Of course the fix is also rather trivial but given that UI usability research* hasn't been the top priority at Apple for a while its not one likely to occur.
Vinea
* There are still usability and HF folks at Apple to be sure
Thank god, because the horse is just so much mush now.
Ok, you called me out and I can't resist. If the dead horse wasn't paraded around so idiotically, it wouldn't have to be beaten. The topic is very worthy of debate. Please try to engage in discussion rather than slandering participants. (Ah hell, who am i kidding, this is the internet. )
This thread is (was) the proper place to discuss status badges on icons. If you're not interested, then perhaps you shouldn't read the thread.
Just imagine, we could have been discussing how dynamic information is conveyed in icons and the dock. Status badges aren't going away so good usage guidelines are imperative. Why lobby against discussion on the topic?
Comments
OK, so if you quit iCal, explain to me again how you expect iCal to show the current date? Do you also expect it to notify you of reminders.....when it is not running? I suggest removing the iCal icon from your Dock so the July 17th date doesn't bother you.
I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, but I'm just responding to your frustration when you said
There is nothing to sort out.
You can't be serious.
It is a huge design mistake that apple shows an incorrect date prominently on the screen. The easy fix is to not include a date in the icon. The best fix is a light-weight background process that automatically updates the icon so that an incorrect date is never displayed.
You can't be serious.
It is a huge design mistake that apple shows an incorrect date prominently on the screen. The easy fix is to not include a date in the icon. The best fix is a light-weight background process that automatically updates the icon so that an incorrect date is never displayed.
Ummm. Didn't I already say that iCal is it's own lightweight auto-updating process for the icon? Just close the main window and off you go?
<counts up ten posts.> yup, there it is!
Now what exactly is the frakking problem?
Ummm. Didn't I already say that iCal is it's own lightweight auto-updating process for the icon? Just close the main window and off you go?
<counts up ten posts.> yup, there it is!
Now what exactly is the frakking problem?
Besides your attitude?
It shouldn't be easy (or even possible) to have the icon show an incorrect date. The date should always be correct or not there at all.
The date is the day iCal was originally released, 17 July. I think if one person in 5 years bitches about it, it probably isn't a real problem, just personal. Why don't you take up windmill tilting for Tog???
Besides your attitude?
It shouldn't be easy (or even possible) to have the icon show an incorrect date. The date should always be correct or not there at all.
Guys, guys, guys....it is not showing an incorrect date. It is showing a picture (a graphic). AN ICON!!! That picture happens to be of the July 17th date. Please do not take that literally. It is an icon that represents a calendar app. Get it? Only when the app is started and running does it USE the icon to actually show the correct date.
Is this really so hard to understand? I mean, really....the hard disk icon on my desktop looks like a desktop hard drive, not a laptop one... OMG!!! The icon is not representing what my MBP hard drive looks like!!!!!
Can you imagine if the menu bar clock showed an incorrect time if a user accidentally quit a clock application? If part of an interface is used to show the date, it should always be correct. Purposefully displaying an incorrect date in the same location that a person uses to see the real date? That is a bad interface.
Personally I'm glad the attitude expressed in the last two posts isn't prevalent at apple. Otherwise, we probably would have a menu-bar clock that purposefully showed an incorrect time, perhaps 12:34. But why stop there? The Mail.app icon could show that you always have seven new messages when the application is closed. iChat, when not running, could also pretend that you have new messages.
I fully anticipate that this mistake will be addressed in a future release. Obviously someone was asleep at the wheel when designing iCal and it's icon.
Wow, why such contempt for fixing this interface mistake?
Can you imagine if the menu bar clock showed an incorrect time if a user accidentally quit a clock application?
Have you seen the icon for Date/Time? It always shows 12:15 (I think). OMG, OMG, why is it not always showing the current time????
If part of an interface is used to show the date, it should always be correct. Purposefully displaying an incorrect date in the same location that a person uses to see the real date? That is a bad interface.
So along those lines, they should change the Display icon to always show what is currently being shown on your display???
But why stop there? The Mail.app icon could show that you always have seven new messages when the application is closed.
Nope, it will show the correct new mail when it is closed. Again, learn the difference between closed and quit.
I fully anticipate that this mistake will be addressed in a future release. Obviously someone was asleep at the wheel when designing iCal and it's icon.
I hope so too. I hope they change the icon to something completely different so we don't have to keep hearing from people who confuse an icon with a running program.
And if you're going to nit-pick closed vs. quit, at least get it right. To most people, close=exit=quit when referring to an application. Your nit-pick is only correct when talking about a window.
Either way, why argue so vehemently against fixing the icons/interface so that an incorrect date isn't shown to users? Why be so militantly attached to displaying an incorrect date in the dock? It really is quite baffling that anyone would argue against fixing it.
And if you're going to nit-pick closed vs. quit, at least get it right. To most people, close=exit=quit when referring to an application. Your nit-pick is only correct when talking about a window.
I got it right. Usually it's Windows users that don't get it right. I understand though, it took me a while to "get" the difference between close and quit after I switched.
Either way, why argue so vehemently against fixing the icons/interface so that an incorrect date isn't shown to users? Why be so militantly attached to displaying an incorrect date in the dock? It really is quite baffling that anyone would argue against fixing it.
I don't think I'm arguing very "vehemently" or being "militant". Maybe I just don't understand how someone can get so hung up on something that is simply an icon. Yes, I see that the icon is showing July 17th, but in realizing that it is just an icon, I don't wake up every morning thinking it is July 17th. Especially since I always have iCal showing the correct date
For the longest time I used to be in the habit of just hitting Comm+Q to "close" my applications. Then I saw the date switch back to July 17th and I was like "WTF?" But when I learned the difference between closing and quitting, I just closed the app, not quit the app.
Like you said, they may address this "interface mistake" when Leopard ships.
Until then, you can do what I suggested to another poster who said 1) He did not really use iCal but 2) Was really annoyed by this. I told him to remove the icon from the dock.
If nobody had argued against fixing the incorrectly displayed date, there would have been no more posts on the subject.
******
Off topic: Close and quit are synonymous in the computing world when referring to an application/program/executable/binary. Yes, all of us Mac geeks know that there are more specific connotations when referring to macintosh application windows. But when someone, even a mac uber-geek, refers to closing an application they generally mean to quit the application entirely. If they mention closing of a window, they are likely to be refering the window and not the app.
But the point is that nit-picking (and getting the nit-pick wrong) is a pointless endeavor. The terms are hopelessly overloaded for use in a forum like this. Without knowing your audience perfectly, it is impossible to know from where their lexicon is derived. Personally, i deal with a dozen OS on a daily basis and use the term "close" loosely. When wanting to specify the mac specific action of closing open windows but not the app, I say so explicitly. Lambasting a person for being exposed to more than the mac simply makes one look naive.
The prominent display of an incorrect date is something that should be fixed. Why argue against it?
If I thought Apple was displaying the date incorrectly I would argue against it. But that's where we're different. You look at the iCal icon and you take it as THE date. And complain it is wrong. I look at the iCal icon and see just an icon with a picture of A date. Whatever.
If nobody had argued against fixing the incorrectly displayed date, there would have been no more posts on the subject.
Yeah, this comes up from time to time with a few people. In another thread, once it was explained what was going on the general reaction is, "Oh...OK, cool." But this time around, I guess you and Ireland see it differently. No worries, there's always Apple feedback.
If I thought Apple was displaying the date incorrectly I would argue against it. But that's where we're different. You look at the iCal icon and you take it as THE date. And complain it is wrong. I look at the iCal icon and see just an icon with a picture of A date. Whatever.
Please don't assume that my argument is based on my own interpretation of the icon. I don't even use iCal.
This personalization of interface decisions is where you're going astray. A hallmark of a good interaction design is to divorce yourself from the design process. It shouldn't matter how anyone personally interprets things. Nor should personal preferences come into play.
Instead interface designers should take the entire userbase into account and make decisions accordingly. Users seldom resemble geeks on internet boards or professional interaction designers. Hence, personal preference and interpretation ofter operate more as confounders than aids to the design process. This is preached from day one in HCI programs.
Back to the case at hand:
A good percentage of users incorrectly assume that the interface is displaying a correct date. After all, why would apple purposefully choose to show an incorrect date?
Typical scenario:
Normal User: "It was right the last time I checked it, why wouldn't it be right now? See, my computer still has the correct date so why is the dock wrong?"
Support Staff: "That calendar is only correct if it has a tiny little triangle under it."
Normal User: "Why?"
Support Staff: "Because."
Don't kid yourself, many many users are this clueless and worse. It is a hopeless proposition to explain why the date is wrong and how to prevent it from being wrong in the future. The only solution is for apple to fix the problem.
A good percentage of users incorrectly assume that the interface is displaying a correct date. After all, why would apple purposefully choose to show an incorrect date?
Wow, that's quite a statement. I'm sure you have something to back that up with. I'll look for your response. <not holding breath>
Typical scenario:
Normal User: "It was right the last time I checked it, why wouldn't it be right now? See, my computer still has the correct date so why is the dock wrong?"
Support Staff: "That calendar is only correct if it has a tiny little triangle under it."
Normal User: "Why?"
Support Staff: "Because."
http://www.google.com/search?source=...=Google+Search
Apparently plenty of people are interested in preventing their calendar from displaying the wrong date.
Keep in mind that the most clueless of users aren't even savy enough to know how to post about this topic on the web. Most will just live with a sometimes wrong calendar until apple gets around to fixing it.
If you're actually interested in understanding how this affects users, google can be quite educational...
http://www.google.com/search?source=...=Google+Search
Apparently plenty of people are interested in preventing their calendar from displaying the wrong date.
Thanks for the link. We're up to what...about 10? 15 users with this "problem"? Somehow I don't think this is near the top of Apple's list of things that "needs fixed."
Keep in mind that the most clueless of users aren't even savy enough to know how to post about this topic on the web.
No argument there. They are typically the same users who complain that they cannot resize their windows except from the bottom right. Or the "maximize" button does not maximize to full screen.
Most will just live with a sometimes wrong calendar until apple gets around to fixing it.
K...good luck with that.
That type of discussion doesn't interest me so I'll bow out of this thread.
It has become clear that you're more interested in not looking "wrong" than with evaluating the interface issues at hand.
That type of discussion doesn't interest me so I'll bow out of this thread.
You're right about me not having any interest in evaluating interface issues. This whole discussion came about because a poster thought that his Mail icon should show him the number of new emails he had...and the iCal icon should show the correct date, even when these apps were not running. If you contend that some people get confused by having a date (any date) as an icon, I agree with you...it is quite obvious that some people do. I'm just saying that this confusion does not equate to a problem in the way the iCal app functions.....
....other than what I've pointed out elsewhere.....which I think is a real problem. But that could be just me.
I'll bow out too. But thanks for helping me get my post count up.....
It has become clear that you're more interested in not looking "wrong" than with evaluating the interface issues at hand.
That type of discussion doesn't interest me so I'll bow out of this thread.
Thank god, because the horse is just so much mush now.
It has become clear that you're more interested in not looking "wrong" than with evaluating the interface issues at hand.
That type of discussion doesn't interest me so I'll bow out of this thread.
There are three disconnects here.
1) There is nothing wrong with the way the application behaves. If I quit an application then I don't want it doing anything. Updating icons, whatever. I really hate applications in Windows that has a taskbar widget that is configured on by default and they hide (or omit) the checkbox to turn it off.
2) Minimizing the window is not synonymous with quitting the application in either the Windows or Mac environment. The difference is that Windows users call it minimize and Mac users call it closed.
3) There is something wrong with the icon. But on the list of usability problems its rather low. Of course the fix is also rather trivial but given that UI usability research* hasn't been the top priority at Apple for a while its not one likely to occur.
Vinea
* There are still usability and HF folks at Apple to be sure
Thank god, because the horse is just so much mush now.
Ok, you called me out and I can't resist. If the dead horse wasn't paraded around so idiotically, it wouldn't have to be beaten. The topic is very worthy of debate. Please try to engage in discussion rather than slandering participants. (Ah hell, who am i kidding, this is the internet.
This thread is (was) the proper place to discuss status badges on icons. If you're not interested, then perhaps you shouldn't read the thread.
Just imagine, we could have been discussing how dynamic information is conveyed in icons and the dock. Status badges aren't going away so good usage guidelines are imperative. Why lobby against discussion on the topic?