Apple's Mac sales rock-steady despite Vista

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 72
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    I swear to God the mac community has gone from Think Different to Let Apple Think for you. Okay, the prosumer tower market is NOT the same thing as the $600 celeron tower market. It is also NOT the same thing as the $2100 workstation market or the AIO market. Liking AIOs or you have the means to pay $3000 on a super workstation does not mean that you're someone better or smarter than "the PC heathens" who want an a tower. In fact many of us are long time Mac users who had our market abandoned by Apple so they could move upmarket into the workstation class with the Mac Pro and sell a 24" iMac. I am not some PC automaton who wants a tower just because everyone else has had one. I've had all in ones before and have used iMacs and decided through actually reasoning that the form factor is not sufficient for my needs. At the same time I think it's absolutely to have to pay $2100 and get a 24" display just to get a semi credible graphics solution or over $3000 for a quad core workstation if I want a CPU over 2ghz, more than 2 DIMM slots, and a higher end graphics card. That's $800 more than even boutique PCs of similar quality to Apple in the same configuration and doesn't include add-ons that I have to but just because Apple didn't think they looked good. Maybe I'm just nostalgic and trying to hang on to a great computer company that doesn't exist anymore. When I used to buy a Mac I knew it was going to do everything I wanted it to with ease. The new generation I'm lucky if they're able to do any of the things i want them to do. If you're not into the creative arts, I don't know if you have a place at the Mac table anymore.
  • Reply 42 of 72
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    The new generation I'm lucky if they're able to do any of the things i want them to do. If you're not into the creative arts, I don't know if you have a place at the Mac table anymore.



    I can't say I agree. What types of programs can't you find for OS X?
  • Reply 43 of 72
    doh123doh123 Posts: 323member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I can't say I agree. What types of programs can't you find for OS X?



    If it was just an OSX issue, we wouldn't be discussing hardware



    I just see a bunch of people saying Apple needs to make a decent Tower Mac that is not a workstation. Everyone who is detracting from that is saying they shouldn't compete in the bargain basement computers. Those are not the same things. Wanting a decent tower-type Mac does not mean bargain basement... it doesnt even mean its sub 1000. You all do realize that Apple use to make these kinds of machines and dropped out during the G5 era?
  • Reply 44 of 72
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I can't say I agree. What types of programs can't you find for OS X?



    I'm not taking software. Apple's machines have the software, they're just not deisnged to take full advantage of it.



    Card reader/ 3-port hub combo for photography: $25



    EyeTV Hybrid to replace my VCR: $120

    Note: before any asks, iTunes cannot tape the Cubs, Bulls, or Bears games for me.



    Western Digitial my book Pro 250GB FW800 hard drive for time backup $140

    (More reliable internal SATA version $67)



    Sony DRX830ULT Firewire400 DVD burner that doesn't take me all day to burn a disk: $120

    (More reliable internal version: $30)



    Logitech Z-4I High end 2.1 speaker system $70



    Combined With the 24" iMac (2.33ghz, 2GB) required to get a (now outdated) 7600GT That's a $3000 investment. $3600 If I want the expansion of the tower.
  • Reply 45 of 72
    physguyphysguy Posts: 919member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    I'm not taking software. Apple's machines have the software, they're just not deisnged to take full advantage of it.



    Card reader/ 3-port hub combo for photography: $25



    EyeTV Hybrid to replace my VCR: $120

    Note: before any asks, iTunes cannot tape the Cubs, Bulls, or Bears games for me.



    Western Digitial my book Pro 250GB FW800 hard drive for time backup $140

    (More reliable internal SATA version $67)



    Sony DRX830ULT Firewire400 DVD burner that doesn't take me all day to burn a disk: $120

    (More reliable internal version: $30)



    Logitech Z-4I High end 2.1 speaker system $70



    Combined With the 24" iMac (2.33ghz, 2GB) required to get a (now outdated) 7600GT That's a $3000 investment. $3600 If I want the expansion of the tower.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    I swear to God the mac community has gone from Think Different to Let Apple Think for you. Okay, the prosumer tower market is NOT the same thing as the $600 celeron tower market. It is also NOT the same thing as the $2100 workstation market or the AIO market. Liking AIOs or you have the means to pay $3000 on a super workstation does not mean that you're someone better or smarter than "the PC heathens" who want an a tower. In fact many of us are long time Mac users who had our market abandoned by Apple so they could move upmarket into the workstation class with the Mac Pro and sell a 24" iMac. I am not some PC automaton who wants a tower just because everyone else has had one. I've had all in ones before and have used iMacs and decided through actually reasoning that the form factor is not sufficient for my needs. At the same time I think it's absolutely to have to pay $2100 and get a 24" display just to get a semi credible graphics solution or over $3000 for a quad core workstation if I want a CPU over 2ghz, more than 2 DIMM slots, and a higher end graphics card. That's $800 more than even boutique PCs of similar quality to Apple in the same configuration and doesn't include add-ons that I have to but just because Apple didn't think they looked good. Maybe I'm just nostalgic and trying to hang on to a great computer company that doesn't exist anymore. When I used to buy a Mac I knew it was going to do everything I wanted it to with ease. The new generation I'm lucky if they're able to do any of the things i want them to do. If you're not into the creative arts, I don't know if you have a place at the Mac table anymore.



    One quick comment on 'that great computer company' - Don't forget that when they offered these things they were going the way of the dinosaur. They were trying to sell themselves or anything else because their sales were slowly, inexorably going away.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by doh123 View Post


    If it was just an OSX issue, we wouldn't be discussing hardware



    I just see a bunch of people saying Apple needs to make a decent Tower Mac that is not a workstation. Everyone who is detracting from that is saying they shouldn't compete in the bargain basement computers. Those are not the same things. Wanting a decent tower-type Mac does not mean bargain basement... it doesnt even mean its sub 1000. You all do realize that Apple use to make these kinds of machines and dropped out during the G5 era?



    As far as I'm concerned I'm not arguing against any of these technical arguments, nor am I saying that the desire isn't there, I would buy one, but what I think we're all saying is that this market, even if not small (the 25% number mentioned before) is highly fractured and better served (in the non OS x space) but smaller boutique companies. All we're saying is that Apple doesn't NEED (this is the key word) to do this, and IMO, doing so would NOT be a good business decision.
  • Reply 46 of 72
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by physguy View Post


    One quick comment on 'that great computer company' - Don't forget that when they offered these things they were going the way of the dinosaur. They were trying to sell themselves or anything else because their sales were slowly, inexorably going away.







    As far as I'm concerned I'm not arguing against any of these technical arguments, nor am I saying that the desire isn't there, I would buy one, but what I think we're all saying is that this market, even if not small (the 25% number mentioned before) is highly fractured and better served (in the non OS x space) but smaller boutique companies. All we're saying is that Apple doesn't NEED (this is the key word) to do this, and IMO, doing so would NOT be a good business decision.



    So, selling more machines to interested clients is not a good business decision? I'd also like to add that Apple was going the way of the Dinosaur because it couldn't adapt to a direct marketing/ BTO situation. But hey, if Apple wants to alienate everyone who is not a fanatic, who I am to say something. As for the fracturing, that because there is choice, but the brand in each market pretty much sells the same thing in slightly different packages. Apple sells something completely different. That's a good thing if you're looking for something different, but if you're just looking for a better PC, you are pretty well screwed. You find yourself where the OS severely lacking if you go for the hardware you want or the hardware severely lacking (or complete overkill) if you go for the better OS. Either way, it's very difficult to be happy with a purchase the way I was with my Blue & White G3.
  • Reply 47 of 72
    physguyphysguy Posts: 919member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    So, selling more machines to interested clients is not a good business decision?



    I'll say this one more time, and I don't understand why its so hard to understand; [just] selling more machines to interested clients may not be a good business decision. 1) The price might be too low to be interesting (Dell). 2) The service/support costs might be too high with small market size to be interesting to a large company (Boutique, which by the way is likely the reason that Dell doesn't serve this boutique market either).



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    I'd also like to add that Apple was going the way of the Dinosaur because it couldn't adapt to a direct marketing/ BTO situation.



    That's far too simplistic. RoughlyDrafted's Daniel Eran investigates and organizes this all much much better.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    But hey, if Apple wants to alienate everyone who is not a fanatic, who I am to say something. As for the fracturing, that because there is choice, but the brand in each market pretty much sells the same thing in slightly different packages. Apple sells something completely different. That's a good thing if you're looking for something different, but if you're just looking for a better PC, you are pretty well screwed. You find yourself where the OS severely lacking if you go for the hardware you want or the hardware severely lacking (or complete overkill) if you go for the better OS. Either way, it's very difficult to be happy with a purchase the way I was with my Blue & White G3.



    Actually is seems Apple is only alienating the 'consumer tower' fanatic. I've had more switchers I've advised in the last 6 months than every before. The iMac and Macbook pro fit their needs almost exactly, and I was surprised that none of them balked at the price. They seem to have done their homework and realized the value that's there. They also have purchased mid-sized towers in the past and almost never used the upgrade possibilities. They've just bought new systems. It's all about market size, costs and payback.
  • Reply 48 of 72
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by doh123 View Post


    If it was just an OSX issue, we wouldn't be discussing hardware



    I just see a bunch of people saying Apple needs to make a decent Tower Mac that is not a workstation. Everyone who is detracting from that is saying they shouldn't compete in the bargain basement computers. Those are not the same things. Wanting a decent tower-type Mac does not mean bargain basement... it doesnt even mean its sub 1000. You all do realize that Apple use to make these kinds of machines and dropped out during the G5 era?



    I see a couple folks trying to jack the thread that was started on the first page and DID engage in debate on the low end machines. You cant show up with your buddies on the second page, add a brand new wank about mid-towers and say the thread is missing the difference between those mid-sized towers and the low end stuff. The mid-sized towers weren't part of the discussion when you walked up to the bar.



    So yeah I realize the difference and so do the others. But you seem to have missed it yourself.



    That aside, that market is a mirage, probably just as small or smaller than the gamer market which has been shown to be about 3% of the entire PC market and that 75% of that is self built white boxes. Making gamer boxes less than 1% overall pre-configured market. When the numbers are than small it just isn't profitable to chase, just let those that want those low priced upgradeable machines buy and build them since that;'s what they seem to be asking for with the full upgradeability anyway!
  • Reply 49 of 72
    ipeonipeon Posts: 1,122member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by physguy View Post


    No. I think what we're saying is that 'consumer towers' are not a very good market. Dell makes little money. Others need to find appropriate niches.



    Consumer Towers don't have a very good market? Where did you get this info?



    The reason Dell "makes little money" has nothing to do with the fact that they make consumer towers, that they undercut the price could be a factor, but that falls under "miss-management" category and not under product type so as to say that Apple shouldn't make a consumer tower because Dell is losing money.
  • Reply 50 of 72
    physguyphysguy Posts: 919member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iPeon View Post


    Consumer Towers don't have a very good market? Where did you get this info?



    Please read the rest of the thread.
  • Reply 51 of 72
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iPeon View Post


    Consumer Towers don't have a very good market? Where did you get this info?



    The reason Dell "makes little money" has nothing to do with the fact that they make consumer towers, that they undercut the price could be a factor, but that falls under "miss-management" category and not under product type so as to say that Apple shouldn't make a consumer tower because Dell is losing money.



    The reasons Dell has to push their prices down are the precise reasons the consumer tower market is unprofitable.
  • Reply 52 of 72
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iPeon View Post


    Consumer Towers don't have a very good market? Where did you get this info?



    The reason Dell "makes little money" has nothing to do with the fact that they make consumer towers, that they undercut the price could be a factor, but that falls under "miss-management" category and not under product type so as to say that Apple shouldn't make a consumer tower because Dell is losing money.



    I think it's the usual "Apple is always right and if Apple doesn't make it, there just not be a market" stuff.
  • Reply 53 of 72
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    The reasons Dell has to push their prices down are the precise reasons the consumer tower market is unprofitable.



    Take a gander on the prices of the XPS series. You're trying to equate the $300-800 entry level PC with a prosumer PC. They lose money on the celeron and sempron machines much make up the majority of sales. That is not the market or suer we're talking about. Prosumers are willing to spend a pretty penny to get good hardware.
  • Reply 54 of 72
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by physguy View Post


    I'll say this one more time, and I don't understand why its so hard to understand; [just] selling more machines to interested clients may not be a good business decision. 1) The price might be too low to be interesting (Dell). 2) The service/support costs might be too high with small market size to be interesting to a large company (Boutique, which by the way is likely the reason that Dell doesn't serve this boutique market either).







    That's far too simplistic. RoughlyDrafted's Daniel Eran investigates and organizes this all much much better.







    Actually is seems Apple is only alienating the 'consumer tower' fanatic. I've had more switchers I've advised in the last 6 months than every before. The iMac and Macbook pro fit their needs almost exactly, and I was surprised that none of them balked at the price. They seem to have done their homework and realized the value that's there. They also have purchased mid-sized towers in the past and almost never used the upgrade possibilities. They've just bought new systems. It's all about market size, costs and payback.



    The machines fit them because they don't have to compete in those markets. They always play it safe.
  • Reply 55 of 72
    chuckerchucker Posts: 5,089member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    I think it's the usual "Apple is always right and if Apple doesn't make it, there just not be a market" stuff.



    Or maybe it's the "gee, Apple's numbers in terms of revenues, profits, stock value and market share growth have been wonderful for several years in a row; maybe they're doing something right after all" stuff.
  • Reply 56 of 72
    gongon Posts: 2,437member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    That aside, that market is a mirage, probably just as small or smaller than the gamer market which has been shown to be about 3% of the entire PC market and that 75% of that is self built white boxes.



    ^^^ Ehh what?



    I personally know about ten people who do a lot of PC gaming. Every one of them has the skill necessary to build their own gaming box. One or two I think did build their most recent computer. One or two had their computers built to order. The rest, 6-7 people, are going with off the shelf. Two of these folks have had (relatively) fast and expensive systems at some point in the last three years - and by expensive I mean at around 1500?. The rest have gone with what I believe were around 1000? computers. For comparison, the low end iMac is 1200?.



    These are not very casual players, either. Some of these folks have been in the top two European clans, some have represented their country in WorldCyberGames.



    The average reader (not subscriber) of the leading gaming magazine in my country is rapidly approaching 25 years old. Grown people rarely have time or interest to mess with computer building - as evidenced by the 80-90% of my gamer friends who don't do it.



    The total myths that "gaming computers" are a small niche, are loaded with expensive hardware and built by their user should be laid to rest already. The hardware enthusiasts, benchmarkers and overclockers you see bullshitting about the latest and greatest on web forums are a small niche. Gamers aren't. Even discounting web games and Solitaire, you'd be surprised how large a portion of home computers is used to play games at some point of their life.
  • Reply 57 of 72
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chucker View Post


    Or maybe it's the "gee, Apple's numbers in terms of revenues, profits, stock value and market share growth have been wonderful for several years in a row; maybe they're doing something right after all" stuff.



    They are doing something very right and it's called the iPod and notebooks. Of course their also aimed at everyone instead of a small niche of users. Before the pod (even under Jobs) Apple was doing just enough with sales t get buy.
  • Reply 58 of 72
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gon View Post


    ^^^ Ehh what?



    I personally know about ten people who do a lot of PC gaming. Every one of them has the skill necessary to build their own gaming box. One or two I think did build their most recent computer. One or two had their computers built to order. The rest, 6-7 people, are going with off the shelf. Two of these folks have had (relatively) fast and expensive systems at some point in the last three years - and by expensive I mean at around 1500?. The rest have gone with what I believe were around 1000? computers. For comparison, the low end iMac is 1200?.



    These are not very casual players, either. Some of these folks have been in the top two European clans, some have represented their country in WorldCyberGames.



    The average reader (not subscriber) of the leading gaming magazine in my country is rapidly approaching 25 years old. Grown people rarely have time or interest to mess with computer building - as evidenced by the 80-90% of my gamer friends who don't do it.



    The total myths that "gaming computers" are a small niche, are loaded with expensive hardware and built by their user should be laid to rest already. The hardware enthusiasts, benchmarkers and overclockers you see bullshitting about the latest and greatest on web forums are a small niche. Gamers aren't. Even discounting web games and Solitaire, you'd be surprised how large a portion of home computers is used to play games at some point of their life.



    As for the niche thing, what they do think the SFF (Mac Mini), AIO (iMac), and workstations (MacPro) markets are, mainstream? Niche to PCs is potentiality massive sales for Apple. I think all the opposition comes from not wanting those with differing opinions on the Mac platform.
  • Reply 59 of 72
    chuckerchucker Posts: 5,089member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    They are doing something very right and it's called the iPod and notebooks.



    And the iMac.



    And?*oh wait, just about every Mac model.



    Quote:

    Of course their also aimed at everyone instead of a small niche of users.



    As opposed to the iMac, which of course is only aimed at people whose first name isn't Ben.



    Quote:

    Before the pod (even under Jobs) Apple was doing just enough with sales t get buy.



    Are you positive you don't want to redact that statement?
  • Reply 60 of 72
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chucker View Post


    And the iMac.



    And?*oh wait, just about every Mac model.



    Funny, while laptop sales are way up, desktop sales lost ground the last couple of years. But Hey, let's not let facts and actual buying trends get in your belief that AIO desktops are what everyone really wants.







    Quote:

    As opposed to the iMac, which of course is only aimed at people whose first name isn't Ben.



    [quote]Must be a lot of people named Ben. It's cool looking, saves space, and the integrated iSight is neat, but it's a family machine with a higher end prosumer price tag. Families can't afford it save the GMA model and the prosumers find it rather anemic.





    Quote:

    Are you positive you don't want to redact that statement?



    Take a look at Apple's financials before the iPod came about. They were either losing money or just barely making a profit. There were some dark days between the success and profits of the original iMac and where we're at today. When the iPod took off and Apple became popular again in late 2003, they started making money again.
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