Investors push Apple to meet or beat Dell enviro goals

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 65
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Unlike a couple of people here, I'm not impressed with what Apple has on their site. it's no different from what I see anywhere else, and is less that what I've seen elsewhere.



    Interesting that you state that you are not impressed with what Apple has on their site and that it is no differenct from what you see anywhere else. But you seem to believe Dell's and HP's meanderings.



    Could you point to Dell's "Product Environmental Specifications" as Apple has done, i.e., for their deskstops and laptops, e.g., the 13.3-inch MacBook (http://images.apple.com/environment/...k_11-08-06.pdf)



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Dell IS doing more than Apple is right now, believe it! Apple is doing what they must, but they are not enthusiastic about it. That must change.



    What evidence do you have to support such? Not hearsay. But actual references. Scientific and peer reviewed.
  • Reply 42 of 65
    physguyphysguy Posts: 920member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    http://www.apple.com/environment/materials/



    The bit about ROHS is simply not true. Apple met ROHS in Europe by stopping selling the Airport Extreme Base Station and the iSight just before the deadline - not 'long before' - and in any case they continued selling those products outside the EU.



    What part of the more than 10 mentions of RoHS is not true? If your referring to



    Quote:

    As a result of our precautionary approach to hazardous substances, Apple met many of the RoHS restrictions long before the July 2006 deadline.



    I don't see what's not true? Did you miss the word 'many'? Their statement is entirely consistent with your own recitation. Having had to modify our products to be RoHS compliant, Apples efforts, pre-deadline, on many of the substances addressed by RoHS are very impressive.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post




    The beef Greenpeace have with Apple is that Apple may say they are planning to remove all harmful substances but they've given no timescale. Dell have, which is why even though their products are more harmful (according to the EPA), Greenpeace love them. Dell's promise is probably unrealistic and I suspect it'll come back to haunt them when the deadline goes past and they're still using harmful substances.



    This is a major part of the problem with the actions of 'environmental activists' - words are more important that actions. Greenpeace loves Dell's because of what they said, not what they did. Greempeace target's Apple because of what they didn't say not because of what they didn't do. This is simply wrongheaded and most likely done simply to raise money for Greenpeace through the attention it draws.
  • Reply 43 of 65
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    http://www.apple.com/environment/materials/



    The bit about ROHS is simply not true. Apple met ROHS in Europe by stopping selling the Airport Extreme Base Station and the iSight just before the deadline - not 'long before' - and in any case they continued selling those products outside the EU.



    And you established the untruth from what? This…



    Apple and RoHS

    Apple products are compliant with the European Directive on the Restriction of the Use of Certain Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment, also known as the RoHS directive. Examples of materials restricted by RoHS include lead, mercury, cadmium, hexavalent chromium, and PBB and PBDE flame retardants. As a result of our precautionary approach to hazardous substances, Apple met many of the RoHS restrictions long before the July 2006 deadline.





    All I got out of Apple's statement was that many of the materials that the RoHS finally decided to restrict in 2003 had already been eliminated by Apple before the RoHS deadline they set for 2006, e.g., Apple banned lead in batteries (1990), CFCs in manufacturing (1992), PVC in packaging (1995), etc. Simply that.
  • Reply 44 of 65
    rhowarthrhowarth Posts: 144member
    I have some sympathy for Apple. Perhaps they're not as "green" as Dell (though the jury must still be out on that one) but that must in large part be because they care so much about the design, look and feel of their products down to the last detail - even the packaging is an important part of the overall end user experience. It's all designed to ooze the feeling of quality, whereas if you're happy to use whatever plastic comes to hand during the manufacturing process, and throw it in it the nearest available cardbox box to ship it out, then clearly it's alot easier to switch to alternative materials with perhaps less environmental impact. None of this is meant to imply that environmental concerns aren't important, however, just that it's a tough balancing act.



    -Rolf
  • Reply 45 of 65
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    Interesting that you state that you are not impressed with what Apple has on their site and that it is no differenct from what you see anywhere else. But you seem to believe Dell's and HP's meanderings.



    Could you point to Dell's "Product Environmental Specifications" as Apple has done, i.e., for their deskstops and laptops, e.g., the 13.3-inch MacBook (http://images.apple.com/environment/...k_11-08-06.pdf)



    I'm not interested in what any company puts on their site, unless it can point to outside recognition of what they have done, and are doing, as well as actual specs. That information must also show specific programs the company has undergoing, and what actual results have been achieved.



    The info that Apple has posted, while nice, doesn't show anyrthing special. Where their educational programs relating to the environment? Where are their partnerships with outside groups?



    It's nice to abide by the law, but right now, most standards are still voluntary. Where do we see Apple rushing to meet these standards before they are required in 2009, as both Dell and Hp have been doing?



    What I'm refering to is just what that company has done that goes beyond what law mandates. Apple has done a pretty good job of following the various laws, as have most other companies, but they haven't shown that they are interested in going much beyond those laws, as particularly Hp has.



    Quote:

    What evidence do you have to support such? Not hearsay. But actual references. Scientific and peer reviewed.



    [/quote]



    There have been articles in industry publications about this over the years.



    Don't be a jerk about talking about scientific and peer reviewed articles. We aren't talking about scientific research, and you should know that.



    Don't try to set up a situation that you can try to take advantage of in some meaningless way.



    What we are interested in, and what matters is what concrete steps a company has actually taken outside of the lab.



    As you like to go to a companies site, go here to Hp's.



    http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitiz...ent/index.html



    If you want to look through Dell's pages on the environment, you can go here:



    http://www.dell.com/content/topics/g...us&l=en&s=corp



    If you want to go more specifically to the data sheets, which contains these specs, go here (you can get to it easily from the above link):





    http://www.dell.com/content/topics/g...us&l=en&s=corp



    Here:



    http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/...eenlist_1.html
  • Reply 46 of 65
    physguyphysguy Posts: 920member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rhowarth View Post


    I have some sympathy for Apple. Perhaps they're not as "green" as Dell (though the jury must still be out on that one) but that must in large part be because they care so much about the design, look and feel of their products down to the last detail - even the packaging is an important part of the overall end user experience. It's all designed to ooze the feeling of quality, whereas if you're happy to use whatever plastic comes to hand during the manufacturing process, and throw it in it the nearest available cardbox box to ship it out, then clearly it's alot easier to switch to alternative materials with perhaps less environmental impact. None of this is meant to imply that environmental concerns aren't important, however, just that it's a tough balancing act.



    -Rolf



    No, the problem seems to be (and no, I haven't found the originals on these assertions) that, in fact, Apple is currently 'greener' (whatever that really means) than Dell BUT Apple has NOT SAID they intend to stay that way. All of this posturing creates the FUD in peoples mind that lead to the above statements and these shareholder actions.



    I would recommend reading this to get a more researched/informed report. Mr. Eran definitely has a bias, and he admits to it, but his facts are almost always traceable if you want to go deeper into the conclusions.
  • Reply 47 of 65
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rhowarth View Post


    I have some sympathy for Apple.



    Rolf, I am not sure if you need to. I doubt that Apple or Dell are much different than any other major corporation when it comes to environmental policies. Just that they present or do it differently.



    The suggestions in this forum that one is much better at it than the other is ludicrous. Taking that much of their source materials come basically from the same place dictates that one would not unsupport the other in order to get an environmental advantage. To do so would be economically unsound.



    For some, the aesthitcally, beautiful products of Apple breathes opulence for some. To look so good, it has to be expensive. It has to be depleting our natural resources, it has to be destroying our environment. Bull crap. Apple is proving it every day.
  • Reply 48 of 65
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post






    Thanks for the links. Just as I thought, they are all trying to do the same.



    Interesting that Apple gets dumped on because it doesn't set a date, gets dumped on if they fall short of a date or even comes in before the date.



    As for, "Where do we see Apple rushing to meet these standards before they are required in 2009, as both Dell and Hp have been doing?" Why would they such…they started a long time ago and as such have a head start over most companies.



    And while on the subject, best you start greening yourself before everybody finds out your mind is brown as cow dung (which by the way, I have no scientific evidence to prove such. Or disprove it for that matter).
  • Reply 49 of 65
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    Thanks for the links. Just as I thought, they are all trying to do the same.



    Interesting that Apple gets dumped on because it doesn't set a date, gets dumped on if they fall short of a date or even comes in before the date.



    As for, "Where do we see Apple rushing to meet these standards before they are required in 2009, as both Dell and Hp have been doing?" Why would they ruch?they started a long time ago and as such have a head start over most companies.



    And while on the subject, best you start greening yourself before everybody finds out your mind is brown as cow dung (which by the way, I have no scientific evidence to prove such. Or disprove it for that matter).



    I try to be pretty green myself, to take that line seriously.



    I do whatever I can.
  • Reply 50 of 65
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    [QUOTE=melgross;1075766]

    Quote:

    There have been articles in industry publications about this over the years.



    We get a lot of Dell gear and thus far I see no evidence that Dell is greener than Apple. If you said Fujitsu I'd believe you. While googling for their desktops I ran into Environmental Reports since 2000.



    http://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/environment/report/



    If we're going to use a benchmark lets at least pick someone that is best in class.



    Vinea
  • Reply 51 of 65
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post


    Funny, yes. However, there is no mechanism by which a human being could choke due to the simple presence of CO2.



    Sorry, I wasn't going for a doctoral dissertation, I was going for effect. Which I think worked.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lfmorrison View Post


    Companies need to realize that in order for them to STAY in business, the planet must remain viable to support human life. Ergo, the cost of maintaining human viability must be factored into the regular cost of doing business.



    Isn't that what I said?
  • Reply 52 of 65
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by physguy View Post


    I don't see what's not true?



    This bit...



    "Apple products are compliant with the European Directive on the Restriction of the Use of Certain Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment, also known as the RoHS directive. "



    Have they stopped selling all non RoHS compliant products outside the EU yet? I think you'll find the answer is no.
  • Reply 53 of 65
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post


    As a homebrewer who works with CO2 regularly, I take umbrage with your criticism. When you breathe CO2 is in high concentrations it goes into solution on your mucous membranes creating high concentration carbolic acid which, believe me, will make you choke! You can get an idea of what that would be like on a small scale by wolfing down the foam on your root beer. The bubbles contain pure CO2 which you will inhale, and feel the burn.



    Good point. I once got a blast of CO2 on a film set and it was particularly unpleasant. Perhaps it would even do permanent damaged if breathed in high enough concentrations for long enough.
  • Reply 54 of 65
    rot'napplerot'napple Posts: 1,839member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by britwithgoodteeth View Post


    Rush Limbaugh? Really? Didn't the babbling homeless guy on the corner have an opinion you could have quoted?



    tried to but liberals hired him in an honest effort to avoid last presidential election when... "A Democrat group crucial to John Kerry's presidential campaign has paid felons - some convicted of sex offenses, assault and burglary - to conduct door-to-door voter registration drives in at least three election swing states." - thanks NewsMax - http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...3/171443.shtml
  • Reply 55 of 65
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    This bit...



    "Apple products are compliant with the European Directive on the Restriction of the Use of Certain Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment, also known as the RoHS directive. "



    Have they stopped selling all non RoHS compliant products outside the EU yet? I think you'll find the answer is no.



    In other words, Apple has two different configurations. One running 110 no-compliant with RoHS and the other 220 compliant.



    So the Environmental Specifications listed are incorrect?
  • Reply 56 of 65
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    [QUOTE=vinea;1075846]
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post






    We get a lot of Dell gear and thus far I see no evidence that Dell is greener than Apple. If you said Fujitsu I'd believe you. While googling for their desktops I ran into Environmental Reports since 2000.



    http://www.fujitsu.com/global/about/environment/report/



    If we're going to use a benchmark lets at least pick someone that is best in class.



    Vinea



    Fujitsu is, I think, among the largest companies, number 1. But both Dell and Hp are given pretty good ratings.



    Anyway, I wasn't the one to bring up Dell, I just responded to that post.
  • Reply 57 of 65
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    By the way, no company of any size is yet completely compliant with all of the regulations that are in effect legally, but have not yet come into force. They often have time yet to comply.



    But, some companies have complied much more than others.



    By 2009, they must be in compliance.
  • Reply 58 of 65
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    By the way, no company of any size is yet completely compliant with all of the regulations that are in effect legally, but have not yet come into force. They often have time yet to comply.



    Exactly what regulations, laws or directives are you talking about?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    But, some companies have complied much more than others.



    Could you distinguish them? In particular, what law or regulation has not Apple complied with?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    By 2009, they must be in compliance.



    To what law(s) are you referring?
  • Reply 59 of 65
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    [QUOTE=melgross;1075955]
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post




    Fujitsu is, I think, among the largest companies, number 1. But both Dell and Hp are given pretty good ratings.



    Anyway, I wasn't the one to bring up Dell, I just responded to that post.



    Didn't mean to imply you did. I meant the other folks.



    I wouldn't support the initative as stated simply because its just dumb and you wouldn't get Jobs on board. Being held to a low standard is not what Apple is about and having Apple follow Dell is just insane.



    On the other hand, Fujitsu, for whatever reason, seems to have a corporate culture that is very green. I can see getting Jobs and Gore on board simply because they are (to me anyway) a best in breed example of going green.



    Not the half assed, lipservice green that Dell and HP are doing.



    I recall a story about how Jobs and his family talked about the pros and cons of various washing machines and they settled on a European one because it was well constructed and saved water.



    If they picked Fujitsu and argued for real excellence...



    Vinea
  • Reply 60 of 65
    physguyphysguy Posts: 920member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    This bit...



    "Apple products are compliant with the European Directive on the Restriction of the Use of Certain Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment, also known as the RoHS directive. "



    Have they stopped selling all non RoHS compliant products outside the EU yet? I think you'll find the answer is no.



    How do I find that answer?
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