U.S. Auto Companies: Down The Crapper

Posted:
in AppleOutsider edited January 2014
This week Toyota overtook GM in quaterly auto sales. GM is in danger of losing it's status as world's "biggest" automaker by year's end.



Today, a Ford executive was quoted as saying the auto market is "terrible" right now. http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...src=rss&rpc=23



Chrysler has it's own problems to be sure, though saw a slight bump is sales last month.



One has to ask how much longer it will take to right the ship, even if it can be done. The way I see it is this:



-- All three companies make too many vehicles. There are competing models in the same category and too many configurable options. This is starting to be addressed.



--All three are beholden to the disgusting UAW. Their absurd contracts, where people with virtually no education can make $50,000-100,000 a year building cars, are killing them.



--Their vehicles are still of inferior quality to Japanese products, wherever those products are actually built. It's got to be in the design process. A Toyota is good for 250,000 miles if you never change the oil. Take care of it and it lasts a good 500,000. A GM car is good for 80,000 and then it starts falling apart. Take it from me...I've had both brands. Fit and finish is not as good. Things just go wrong more frequently. Instead of actually addressing quality, they address things that customers perceive to mean a quality car, like a quiet ride. Ford even has an ad now that talks about how their car is "quieter than a Lexus something or other." Stupid. Build a better car and can the marketing crap.



--All three have become more finance companies than car companies. This is their own fault. The worst...and I mean worst mistake...ever...was to introduce rebates. No one will buy an American brand car without a big rebate now. When I bought my 2003 GMC Envoy (big mistake, by the by)...I got like $4000 in rebates...AND $5000 off the sticker. Just lower the goddamned price from $41,000 to $32,000 an be done with it.



--GM in particular made healthcare promises it can't keep. Their healthcare costs last year were over 5 billion. They simply have to change that, even it means breaking promises.



--Following every consumer fad instead of providing a quality product and evolving it slowly with market demand. A good example is SUVs. They had to know that gas would double in price or could and that would screw them over. But NO! They jumped on the bandwagon and lived high on the hog off massive SUV markups for 10 years. It was like the late 60s and early 70s all over again. Those stupid Jap SUVs can't compete! We're Ford! Quality is Job #1! GMC is Professional Grade! RAM: Hemi! In this respect, the Big Three remind me of The RIAA's response to digital music. They're only now waking the fuck up and actually giving a damn about efficiency and realizing that WOW..those "japs" actually know wtf they are doing.



--From a more techical standpoint, I've heard the way "we" design cars is totally different than the more "team oriented" approach they use at Toyota and Nissan and what not. My understanding is the same team is responsible for the whole vehicle and especially quality control, whereas the domestics have specialists and managers for every little thing...including separate quality control.





I welcome your thoughts on this issue. Do you think the American auto industry will ever regain dominance? I have my serious doubts.





(FYI: I've owned American and Japanese-designed cars, and I can tell you the latter is 100% better. I've owned/leased two Nissans and two Toyotas and I doubt I'll go back to GM.)
«134

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 66
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    I bought my 2003 GMC Envoy (big mistake, by the by)



    The GMC Acadia is actually pretty nice.



    What's your beef with the envoy-- besides rabid fuel consumption?
  • Reply 2 of 66
    dentondenton Posts: 725member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    This week Toyota overtook GM in quaterly auto sales. GM is in danger of losing it's status as world's "biggest" automaker by year's end.



    Today, a Ford executive was quoted as saying the auto market is "terrible" right now. http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...src=rss&rpc=23



    Chrysler has it's own problems to be sure, though saw a slight bump is sales last month.



    One has to ask how much longer it will take to right the ship, even if it can be done. The way I see it is this:



    -- All three companies make too many vehicles. There are competing models in the same category and too many configurable options. This is starting to be addressed.



    --All three are beholden to the disgusting UAW. Their absurd contracts, where people with virtually no education can make $50,000-100,000 a year building cars, are killing them.



    --Their vehicles are still of inferior quality to Japanese products, wherever those products are actually built. It's got to be in the design process. A Toyota is good for 250,000 miles if you never change the oil. Take care of it and it lasts a good 500,000. A GM car is good for 80,000 and then it starts falling apart. Take it from me...I've had both brands. Fit and finish is not as good. Things just go wrong more frequently. Instead of actually addressing quality, they address things that customers perceive to mean a quality car, like a quiet ride. Ford even has an ad now that talks about how their car is "quieter than a Lexus something or other." Stupid. Build a better car and can the marketing crap.



    --All three have become more finance companies than car companies. This is their own fault. The worst...and I mean worst mistake...ever...was to introduce rebates. No one will buy an American brand car without a big rebate now. When I bought my 2003 GMC Envoy (big mistake, by the by)...I got like $4000 in rebates...AND $5000 off the sticker. Just lower the goddamned price from $41,000 to $32,000 an be done with it.



    --GM in particular made healthcare promises it can't keep. Their healthcare costs last year were over 5 billion. They simply have to change that, even it means breaking promises.



    --Following every consumer fad instead of providing a quality product and evolving it slowly with market demand. A good example is SUVs. They had to know that gas would double in price or could and that would screw them over. But NO! They jumped on the bandwagon and lived high on the hog off massive SUV markups for 10 years. It was like the late 60s and early 70s all over again. Those stupid Jap SUVs can't compete! We're Ford! Quality is Job #1! GMC is Professional Grade! RAM: Hemi! In this respect, the Big Three remind me of The RIAA's response to digital music. They're only now waking the fuck up and actually giving a damn about efficiency and realizing that WOW..those "japs" actually know wtf they are doing.



    --From a more techical standpoint, I've heard the way "we" design cars is totally different than the more "team oriented" approach they use at Toyota and Nissan and what not. My understanding is the same team is responsible for the whole vehicle and especially quality control, whereas the domestics have specialists and managers for every little thing...including separate quality control.





    I welcome your thoughts on this issue. Do you think the American auto industry will ever regain dominance? I have my serious doubts.





    (FYI: I've owned American and Japanese-designed cars, and I can tell you the latter is 100% better. I've owned/leased two Nissans and two Toyotas and I doubt I'll go back to GM.)



    Here's what it would take to turn the domestic industry around: GMC goes out of business (or enters bankruptcy protection). Chrysler and Ford realise that they're next and fire all of the top management, replacing them with old senior managers of Toyota and Honda. The UAW realises that if they don't allow changes to the whole structure of their business, they will all be out of jobs.



    The problem is that Congress will never allow GM to go out of business. Domestic automakers are already receiving "help:" this only makes the situation worse. The free market should decide whether a company survives! Buying a GM is like buying a Windows PC: they're shit, and they're only going to get worse.
  • Reply 3 of 66
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Denton View Post


    Buying a GM is like buying a Windows PC: they're shit, and they're only going to get worse.



    Health care issues and Toyota's ascendancy aside, the general opinion in the auto industry right now is that GM is in a resurgence of sorts with its new product introductions.



    Cadillac and the Opelization of Saturn are leading the way. (I'll take an Astra, Aura, Sky or new Vue any day)
  • Reply 4 of 66
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,464member
    I'd say you see it pretty dead on.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    -- All three companies make too many vehicles. There are competing models in the same category and too many configurable options. This is starting to be addressed.



    This is very true although to be honest, the Japanese are starting to suffer from the same problem now that they are entering all market segments. I used to be able to easily name the entire car line of a company like Honda. Now it is impossible as they also make minivans, trucks, various SUV's, etc.



    For example why do I need an Element instead of a CR-V? I'm starting to see overlap as these companies try to be all things to all people as well.



    Quote:

    --All three are beholden to the disgusting UAW. Their absurd contracts, where people with virtually no education can make $50,000-100,000 a year building cars, are killing them.



    These companies are dealing with the first demographic issues that all of our economy is going to be dealing with. It isn't just GM that could go down the tubes. It is likely America that will go down the tubes. The Boomers are even coming into old age with worse health than their parents, owning less of their homes, more in debt, demanding more benefits, while leaving behind a legacy of debt. UAW is reflecting what is going to happen to our entire society. They have, like most unions, already sold out the kids with a two-tier pay and benefit system from what I recall as well. So it really just Grandpa Boomer is is making $100,000 a year. Most companies have been doing buyouts. Let's see how they fare after that.



    Quote:

    --Their vehicles are still of inferior quality to Japanese products, wherever those products are actually built. It's got to be in the design process. A Toyota is good for 250,000 miles if you never change the oil. Take care of it and it lasts a good 500,000. A GM car is good for 80,000 and then it starts falling apart. Take it from me...I've had both brands. Fit and finish is not as good. Things just go wrong more frequently. Instead of actually addressing quality, they address things that customers perceive to mean a quality car, like a quiet ride. Ford even has an ad now that talks about how their car is "quieter than a Lexus something or other." Stupid. Build a better car and can the marketing crap.



    Part of that is true and absolutely deserved, but part of it is exaggeration and another part is comparing apples and oranges. All trucks and SUV's have inferior quality compared to sedans and when you are talking Japanese sedans, you are talking about the highest quality built vehicles in the world. However a Japanese SUV will give you more trouble than a Japanese sedan.



    Most people I know have jumped from American SUV's to Japanese sedans. The difference between the two is very large. That said all cars needs care to remain running well.



    Quote:

    --All three have become more finance companies than car companies. This is their own fault. The worst...and I mean worst mistake...ever...was to introduce rebates. No one will buy an American brand car without a big rebate now. When I bought my 2003 GMC Envoy (big mistake, by the by)...I got like $4000 in rebates...AND $5000 off the sticker. Just lower the goddamned price from $41,000 to $32,000 an be done with it.



    Agreed. Also financing deals do not generate sales, they simple steal future sales in my view.



    Quote:

    --GM in particular made healthcare promises it can't keep. Their healthcare costs last year were over 5 billion. They simply have to change that, even it means breaking promises.



    This is going to be true of all boomers. Seeing how those promises, often made to themselves by themselves with the cost tossed onto their children, pan out is going to be very interesting.



    Quote:

    --Following every consumer fad instead of providing a quality product and evolving it slowly with market demand. A good example is SUVs. They had to know that gas would double in price or could and that would screw them over. But NO! They jumped on the bandwagon and lived high on the hog off massive SUV markups for 10 years. It was like the late 60s and early 70s all over again. Those stupid Jap SUVs can't compete! We're Ford! Quality is Job #1! GMC is Professional Grade! RAM: Hemi! In this respect, the Big Three remind me of The RIAA's response to digital music. They're only now waking the fuck up and actually giving a damn about efficiency and realizing that WOW..those "japs" actually know wtf they are doing.



    Those Japaneses are moving hard into the full-size truck market. If they manage to get that right, then U.S. companies are probably done. The reason all the American companies have been hyping these vehicles so much is because they were the areas that Japan either lagged behind in, or had not even fielded a vehicle. A decade ago I couldn't buy a half-ton Japanese truck. I still can't buy a 3/4 ton or 1 ton pickup from any Japanese company. It isn't so much about efficiency as it is about what you can buy. The present Civic is larger than the Accord from ten years ago. That is why Honda had to introduce the Fit.



    It will be interesting to see if Japanese companies can cover all the bases so to speak and still keep their quality up. I remember seeing more recalls from Toyota lately than I have in a decade or so. There might be a slip up in there.



    Quote:

    --From a more techical standpoint, I've heard the way "we" design cars is totally different than the more "team oriented" approach they use at Toyota and Nissan and what not. My understanding is the same team is responsible for the whole vehicle and especially quality control, whereas the domestics have specialists and managers for every little thing...including separate quality control.



    I think no company changes until it has to do so. American companies are starting to really need to do so and we will see what happens. They likely will be doing so in the face of a recession, possibly with raising interest rates. We will have to see how that goes.



    Quote:

    I welcome your thoughts on this issue. Do you think the American auto industry will ever regain dominance? I have my serious doubts.



    I think they can if they go the Apple type route. They need to cut the number of brands and seriously focus on smaller vehicles to sell worldwide as well. They especially need new engines because the Japanese are beating them to death in the truck market with multi-valve engines that produce more horsepower mated to five and six speed trannys. American companies are still trying to work bigger rather than smarter or better.



    Nick
  • Reply 5 of 66
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    A decade ago I couldn't buy a half-ton Japanese truck. I still can't buy a 3/4 ton or 1 ton pickup from any Japanese company. It isn't so much about efficiency as it is about what you can buy.



    Check out the Toyota Tundra.



    Its curb weight is easily over 2 tons (and pretty good looking to boot)
  • Reply 6 of 66
    ronaldoronaldo Posts: 439member
    --All three are beholden to the disgusting UAW. Their absurd contracts, where people with virtually no education can make $50,000-100,000 a year building cars, are killing them.



    What is your problem with so called uneducated people making good money for thier hard work. Some of these people are highly trained for the work they perform.

    And besides if everyone was as highly educated as you are there wouldn't be anybody left to build anything in this country, and then there won't be any tax base to keep our to keep the infrastuctures of our country working.



    --From a more techical standpoint, I've heard the way "we" design cars is totally different than the more "team oriented" approach they use at Toyota and Nissan and what not. My understanding is the same team is responsible for the whole vehicle and especially quality control, whereas the domestics have specialists and managers for every little thing...including separate quality control.



    It seems to me that these are the educated ones that came up with the way that cars are designed and built in the USA. So maybe having a higher education isn't all it's made out to be.
  • Reply 7 of 66
    marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    Apart from fuel and taxes, yearly standard light servicing (oil changes etc) and a minor accident when I hit a deer, unpredictable maintenance of my '99 Nissan which ive had for 3 years has cost me the grand total of 40p for a jubilee clip last year, and never had a minute of trouble with it.



    I was looking for a Honda to start with, because I had an old car (Rover Gti - funnily i saw a rover the other day, where someone had removed the 'R' from the badge ) with a Honda engine that refused to die, though the car was falling off the engine, but my ugly duckling Nissan is definately a keeper!
  • Reply 8 of 66
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,464member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post


    Check out the Toyota Tundra.



    Its curb weight is easily over 2 tons (and pretty good looking to boot)



    Hahahaha... I'm not looking for a heavy truck. I'm looking for a hauling truck.



    1500,2500,3500.. those numbers usually relate to payload and towing capacity.



    Toyota makes a very nice half-ton pick up which features a claimed 5 ton tow capacity (10,000 lbs)



    The engine in that truck is a 5.7L which is the exact size in my 1991 Chevy 2500 3/4 ton pick-up.



    I'm sure the newer Toyota outperforms my truck, but I also prefer not having a truck payment of any sort.



    Also understand that the LARGEST Toyota engine available is the 5.7 L. The Dodge 3500 for example has a higher payload capacity than the Toyota has towing capacity.



    That difference is massive.



    However the Japanese are quickly charging into this area. Most folks are just fine with the 1/2 ton truck capacities. I'm sure that Toyota will sell tons of these trucks and the CrewMax absolutely looks bad ass.



    Nick
  • Reply 9 of 66
    fran441fran441 Posts: 3,715member
    The fact that the Japanese overtook American car makers is a national disgrace. I don't think anyone else sees it this way but I think it's a very bad sign for our country and our economy. I made this post a few weeks ago:



    Quote:

    It's annoying to me that the American auto makers are still giving out massive paychecks to their CEOs when they just went to Congress two years ago asking for federal aid. It's amazing that Ford and GM could be run so poorly.



    Personally, I've never bought a car that wasn't made by an American manufacturer. In fact, I've gone out of my way to buy American cars and so has my family. I've owned a 1992 Plymouth Voyager (was eventually given to a cousin), a 1995 Jeep Cherokee (which is now my brother's), a 1996 Mercury Sable (my grandparents' car which I now maintain for them), and most recently, a 2004 Ford Mustang. My parents currently own a 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager and a 2003 Pontiac Grand Am.



    But I'm not liking what I see from Ford and GM right now and I'm not sure if I'm going to buy American when I get my next car. I'd like to be able to buy a car that gets some decent gas mileage considering the fact that gas prices continue to skyrocket. There's also the matter of the 'cheap' interiors of the American cars. My Mustang has some pretty cheap parts compared to what I've seen in the new Toyotas. So yeah, both Ford and GM have some serious work to do and it's ridiculous to me that their CEOs are being rewarded while things are literally falling apart around them.



    This country has lost far too many manufacturing jobs to slave labor in Southeast Asia. We already import more goods than we export, this is not good. But this is being offset as of right now because we have a surplus of services. Still, it's not good to see that when we can buy American products, we choose to buy foreign. As I said in my post from a few weeks ago, I'm not liking what I see from Ford and GM and they are really going to have to work hard for me to buy another American car. But on the other hand, I do feel that it's almost an obligation to buy American made products when they are available. I just don't think there's enough people out there that even think about buying American vs. Foreign any more, they just buy whatever is cheapest or viewed to be the best. In the end, it just hurts our overall economy.
  • Reply 10 of 66
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post


    The GMC Acadia is actually pretty nice.



    What's your beef with the envoy-- besides rabid fuel consumption?



    Well, it was a nice vehicle in many ways. It was AWFUL on gas. I got rid of it in 2005 when Katrina hit and gas went to $3.50 a gallon or more. I'm talking the thing got like 12-20 miles per gallon, despite it's bullshit EPA 17-25 estimate (Consumer Reports had a big thing about how the EPA estimates are often not worth the paper they're printed on).



    But it was more than that. At 40,000 miles, a wheel bearing went. I had a good relationship with a guilt-ridden shop manager and got it covered uder warranty. Otherwise it would have been over $800. A wheel bearing? I never took it off road one time. Professional grade my ass.



    I've heard others with many problems. On the whole I was lucky. It was mainly the gas and the depreciation. I had intended to keep it, but then gas doubled in price after I got it. In 2003 gas was like $1.70-1.80 a gallon. That meant it cost me $38-42 to fill up. I was pushing $90 by the end...and since for a long time I had a long commute, I got gas every 4 days.
  • Reply 11 of 66
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post


    Health care issues and Toyota's ascendancy aside, the general opinion in the auto industry right now is that GM is in a resurgence of sorts with its new product introductions.



    Cadillac and the Opelization of Saturn are leading the way. (I'll take an Astra, Aura, Sky or new Vue any day)



    Why will Opelization fix things (I'll be straight with you...I had to look that up as I wasn't familiar with the term)? It seems like the savings wil come mainly from platform sharing. I don't see how that can be enough, or that a company the size of GM can survive on what one article on the subject desribed as "tweener" cars (cars that you buy until you can get something better). Maybe it will help Saturn. But Saturn can't save GM.
  • Reply 12 of 66
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    Well, it was a nice vehicle in many ways. It was AWFUL on gas. I got rid of it in 2005 when Katrina hit and gas went to $3.50 a gallon or more. I'm talking the thing got like 12-20 miles per gallon, despite it's bullshit EPA 17-25 estimate (Consumer Reports had a big thing about how the EPA estimates are often not worth the paper they're printed on).



    Not sure if you're aware, but the EPA recently revised its fuel estimates. There was a big dust-up afterwards since they apparently neglected to adjust the figures for the gas guzzler tax, so many more vehicles were subject to it. Good going guys.
  • Reply 13 of 66
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    Why will Opelization fix things (I'll be straight with you...I had to look that up as I wasn't familiar with the term)? It seems like the savings wil come mainly from platform sharing. I don't see how that can be enough, or that a company the size of GM can survive on what one article on the subject desribed as "tweener" cars (cars that you buy until you can get something better). Maybe it will help Saturn. But Saturn can't save GM.



    The key is to make desirable products. That's absolutely the biggest factor because they need to create vehicles that people want to buy and drive. And right now Saturn (now re-badged Opels --GM's European brand) and Cadillac are leading the way. GM's products portfolio is getting much better with those two brands, plus the new Malibu, Camaro, and Volt concept.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ronaldo


    --From a more techical standpoint, I've heard the way "we" design cars is totally different than the more "team oriented" approach they use at Toyota and Nissan and what not. My understanding is the same team is responsible for the whole vehicle and especially quality control, whereas the domestics have specialists and managers for every little thing...including separate quality control.



    I'll find out for you. I "know someone" who's familiar first-hand with the auto design industry.
  • Reply 14 of 66
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,014member
    Trump:



    Quote:

    This is very true although to be honest, the Japanese are starting to suffer from the same problem now that they are entering all market segments. I used to be able to easily name the entire car line of a company like Honda. Now it is impossible as they also make minivans, trucks, various SUV's, etc.



    For example why do I need an Element instead of a CR-V? I'm starting to see overlap as these companies try to be all things to all people as well.



    That would make logical sense, but I don't think the result is the same. Their products are still more clearly defined. They also seem to be more nimble in responding to the market...what with hybrids and what not. Oh...I also just realized what you mean...I was talking about too many of EACH model...as in raw production numbers. But it's true I am also talking about competing models and divisions. GM solved some of this by axing Olds, but you still have Pontiac, Chevy and Buick eating each other's lunch. Then they have Checy trucks and GMC trucks. It almost seems like the only reason Chvy CARS exist is for nostalgia. I say can Checy cars and GMC consumer trucks. Make GMC a fleet and truly "pro" brand.



    Quote:

    These companies are dealing with the first demographic issues that all of our economy is going to be dealing with. It isn't just GM that could go down the tubes. It is likely America that will go down the tubes. The Boomers are even coming into old age with worse health than their parents, owning less of their homes, more in debt, demanding more benefits, while leaving behind a legacy of debt. UAW is reflecting what is going to happen to our entire society. They have, like most unions, already sold out the kids with a two-tier pay and benefit system from what I recall as well. So it really just Grandpa Boomer is is making $100,000 a year. Most companies have been doing buyouts. Let's see how they fare after that.



    I don't think we're actually going to see a true crisis nationwide, because action will be taken to reform the system and/or cut benefits. But as for the UAW, it's really the overall pay I'm talking about.



    from the UAW:



    Quote:

    As of the second quarter of 2003, a UAW-represented assembler earns $25.63 per hour of straight time. A typical UAW-represented skilled-trades worker earns $29.75 per hour of straight time.



    That's crazy, and it's without overtime and bonuses, which are also being paid. It's not crazy to assume the average assembler is making $35 a hour when that's taken into account. That's $72,000 a year. That's a hell of a lot more than I make with two college degrees and eight years in education in the highest paid district in the county...a county that is the 15th fastest growing in the nation.



    Quote:

    Part of that is true and absolutely deserved, but part of it is exaggeration and another part is comparing apples and oranges. All trucks and SUV's have inferior quality compared to sedans and when you are talking Japanese sedans, you are talking about the highest quality built vehicles in the world. However a Japanese SUV will give you more trouble than a Japanese sedan.



    Most people I know have jumped from American SUV's to Japanese sedans. The difference between the two is very large. That said all cars needs care to remain running well.



    I don't know that I agree with that. Do you have some data to back that up? In any case, my question is: Why aren't American sedans the best in the world? Therein lies the problem.



    Quote:

    Agreed. Also financing deals do not generate sales, they simple steal future sales in my view.



    I don't know....I think in the short term it steals sales. In the long term I don't think it matters. The real problem is that cars are just too expensive...and people now expect rebates and zero percent financing to help them justify the purchase.



    Quote:

    Those Japaneses are moving hard into the full-size truck market. If they manage to get that right, then U.S. companies are probably done. The reason all the American companies have been hyping these vehicles so much is because they were the areas that Japan either lagged behind in, or had not even fielded a vehicle. A decade ago I couldn't buy a half-ton Japanese truck. I still can't buy a 3/4 ton or 1 ton pickup from any Japanese company. It isn't so much about efficiency as it is about what you can buy. The present Civic is larger than the Accord from ten years ago. That is why Honda had to introduce the Fit.



    It will be interesting to see if Japanese companies can cover all the bases so to speak and still keep their quality up. I remember seeing more recalls from Toyota lately than I have in a decade or so. There might be a slip up in there.



    Agreed on both points. My feeling is that the Japanese will field trucks just as good as American trucks within 5 years. It's already coming close. I agree that Toyota in particular has had a few more problems lately.



    Quote:

    I think no company changes until it has to do so. American companies are starting to really need to do so and we will see what happens. They likely will be doing so in the face of a recession, possibly with raising interest rates. We will have to see how that goes.



    Agreed in part. I think that GM has seen the writing on the wall...all of them have. It's their solutions that I think are wrong. They are trying to innovate their way out of it...trying to produce "new and exciting product offerings." The problem is consumers have seen all that. They can get the same features and some of the same bells and whistles on the foreign cars. That wasn't the case 10 years ago. They want quality. They want fit and finish. GM, Ford an Chrysler are still lagging in those areas...not as much as they were in the early 1990s, but they are still behind.



    Quote:

    I think they can if they go the Apple type route. They need to cut the number of brands and seriously focus on smaller vehicles to sell worldwide as well. They especially need new engines because the Japanese are beating them to death in the truck market with multi-valve engines that produce more horsepower mated to five and six speed trannys. American companies are still trying to work bigger rather than smarter or better.



    I agree with that. I'm not sure it's about specific engines and transmissions, but I still agree.
  • Reply 15 of 66
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ShawnJ View Post


    The key is to make desirable products. That's absolutely the biggest factor because they need to create vehicles that people want to buy and drive. And right now Saturn (now re-badged Opels --GM's European brand) and Cadillac are leading the way. GM's products portfolio is getting much better with those two brands, plus the new Malibu, Camaro, and Volt concept.







    I'll find out for you. I "know someone" who's familiar first-hand with the auto design industry.





    I don't agree with you fully wrt #1. Yeah, desirable products are needed, but those products have to be as good or better at the same price than the competition. If the re-badged Opels are doing the trick, then you have a good point...but to "fix" the company you'd have to expand that philosophy across GM's line.



    Sounds good about #2. It was just something I heard a few years back. It may not be true.
  • Reply 16 of 66
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ronaldo View Post


    --All three are beholden to the disgusting UAW. Their absurd contracts, where people with virtually no education can make $50,000-100,000 a year building cars, are killing them.



    What is your problem with so called uneducated people making good money for thier hard work. Some of these people are highly trained for the work they perform.

    And besides if everyone was as highly educated as you are there wouldn't be anybody left to build anything in this country, and then there won't be any tax base to keep our to keep the infrastuctures of our country working.



    --From a more techical standpoint, I've heard the way "we" design cars is totally different than the more "team oriented" approach they use at Toyota and Nissan and what not. My understanding is the same team is responsible for the whole vehicle and especially quality control, whereas the domestics have specialists and managers for every little thing...including separate quality control.



    It seems to me that these are the educated ones that came up with the way that cars are designed and built in the USA. So maybe having a higher education isn't all it's made out to be.



    I don't think you're seeing my point. I'm not looking down upon people with less education. If anything I think that we have become too much a nation of "managers." I actually think we as a nation are developing a case of "occupation snobbery" of sorts, and I don't think it's a good thing at all.



    My point is that these people are being paid too much for what they are doing. When you have a relatively unskilled worker making $70K (not totally unskilled, but it's not rocket science)...and a computer engineer starts at $5,000 less, I think that's an issue. Starting teachers in Michigan make around the same as where I live from what I can see...from $35-$45K. How is it right then for a Ford worker to make $50 or $60K...especially when the market is not demanding those salaries?



    I don't really see where you are going with the second point. Seems like sort of a frivolous aside to me, no offense intended.
  • Reply 17 of 66
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    But it's true I am also talking about competing models and divisions. GM solved some of this by axing Olds, but you still have Pontiac, Chevy and Buick eating each other's lunch.



    The problem with GM axing Pontiac and Buick is brand-loyalists.



    Lots of people have been buying those brands for years, and it's no done-deal that they'd migrate to GM's other offerings for replacement. Sure, there's a case to be made that GM should better distinguish its brands, but it would hurt the company to lose those loyal buyers.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post


    Yeah, desirable products are needed, but those products have to be as good or better at the same price than the competition.



    The cost issue is a good one, but you're not going to like one major reason Japanese cars are cheaper:



    Quote:

    General Motors estimates that health care costs add about $1,500 to the cost of each vehicle it makes in the United States. Chrysler claims a health care cost of $1,400 per vehicle. Ford says its burden is $1,100.



    G.M.'s pension plan has also been a drain. Since 1992, G.M. has plowed $56 billion in stock and cash into it. It is hoping to reduce its burden by offering all of its 105,000 U.A.W. workers buyout packages worth up to $140,000. It is still unclear how many plan to accept the offer.



    "The higher legacy costs are reflected in a less modern product," said George E. Hoffer, a professor of economics at Virginia Commonwealth University who has studied the auto industry. "They had to cut costs somewhere else and they cut costs in retooling."



    Japanese companies face little of this burden in Japan, where the government covers retirees' health care and pays a bigger share of workers' pensions.



    There's a significant part of your solution.
  • Reply 18 of 66
    aries 1baries 1b Posts: 1,009member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fran441 View Post


    The fact that the Japanese overtook American car makers is a national disgrace. I don't think anyone else sees it this way but I think it's a very bad sign for our country and our economy. I made this post a few weeks ago:







    This country has lost far too many manufacturing jobs to slave labor in Southeast Asia. We already import more goods than we export, this is not good. But this is being offset as of right now because we have a surplus of services. Still, it's not good to see that when we can buy American products, we choose to buy foreign. As I said in my post from a few weeks ago, I'm not liking what I see from Ford and GM and they are really going to have to work hard for me to buy another American car. But on the other hand, I do feel that it's almost an obligation to buy American made products when they are available. I just don't think there's enough people out there that even think about buying American vs. Foreign any more, they just buy whatever is cheapest or viewed to be the best. In the end, it just hurts our overall economy.



    "Buying American" just because it's American and ignoring the quality of what you're buying only rewards poor quality and enables continued poor performance. Look at Microsoft!



    I know engineers who used to work for the Car Companies and their stories of the antics of the UAW only make me sadly cheer on the inevitable arrival of the armageddon heading to Detroit.



    It is going to be bad and it's going to be absolutely necessary.



    V/R,

    Aries 1B
  • Reply 19 of 66
    fran441fran441 Posts: 3,715member
    Quote:

    "Buying American" just because it's American and ignoring the quality of what you're buying only rewards poor quality and enables continued poor performance. Look at Microsoft!



    I can't disagree with you here, and like I said in my earlier post, I'm disgusted with the way that American car companies are being run. I hate seeing the CEOs making millions of dollars a month while the companies are going down the drain. My parents always bought American cars with one exception and told me why it was important to buy American. Now even they are considering buying a Toyota for their next car.



    The only foreign car my parents ever bought was a Datsun shortly after they got married. They both sold their cars and bought a cheap vehicle because they needed money. The Datsun was a lemon from the minute they drove it off the lot. In fact, they brought it back to the dealer because of the problems they were having with it and were basically told, "Tough break". There were no lemon laws back then and they were pretty much out of luck. Datsuns were so unreliable and had such a bad reputation that they had to be rebranded in this country. The Datsun lines became Nissans here. Some cars and trucks are still sold under the Datsun name in Japan as far as I know.



    But given gas mileage and the features they are seeing in the newer Japanese cars, I wouldn't be surprised to see them get a Toyota. It's really unfortunate.
  • Reply 20 of 66
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Fran441 View Post


    But given gas mileage and the features they are seeing in the newer Japanese cars, I wouldn't be surprised to see them get a Toyota. It's really unfortunate.



    Toyota has significant manufacturing capacity in the US.



    We're talking easily over 600,000 automobiles a year. So in one sense there's still somewhat of a claim that buying a Toyota is "buying American"-- if we're talking about American jobs.
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