Agreed in part. I think that GM has seen the writing on the wall...all of them have. It's their solutions that I think are wrong. They are trying to innovate their way out of it...trying to produce "new and exciting product offerings." The problem is consumers have seen all that. They can get the same features and some of the same bells and whistles on the foreign cars. That wasn't the case 10 years ago. They want quality. They want fit and finish. GM, Ford an Chrysler are still lagging in those areas...not as much as they were in the early 1990s, but they are still behind. .
I think that's a big part of it, right there.
The Japanese didn't get huge selling "interesting" and "unique" cars. They did it selling Civics and Accords, Tercels and Camrys, Sentras and Altimas.
Solid, reliable, fuel efficient, decent handling, logically laid out and kinda bland.
I got a Chevy Malibu for a rental recently. Obviously, I can't speak to reliability, but in general it was kind of plush, sucked gas and handled like a pig. OK stereo, half a million motorized adjustments for the drivers seat.
And I thought, good lord, are they still building them like this? As if everybody buying cars is over 60 and wants a car that feels like their big chair back home?
Japan doesn't make a single car that wallows around and drinks gas like that Malibu. Maybe that has something to do with their success?
I don't think you're seeing my point. I'm not looking down upon people with less education. If anything I think that we have become too much a nation of "managers." I actually think we as a nation are developing a case of "occupation snobbery" of sorts, and I don't think it's a good thing at all.
My point is that these people are being paid too much for what they are doing. When you have a relatively unskilled worker making $70K (not totally unskilled, but it's not rocket science)...and a computer engineer starts at $5,000 less, I think that's an issue. Starting teachers in Michigan make around the same as where I live from what I can see...from $35-$45K. How is it right then for a Ford worker to make $50 or $60K...especially when the market is not demanding those salaries?
I don't really see where you are going with the second point. Seems like sort of a frivolous aside to me, no offense intended.
I understand what you are saying. I believe most of these people that are making these huge salaries have probably been with the company for 20 or more years.
The thing I don't understand is why GM, Ford and Chrysler just don't tell the UAW to conform to the market based economy, or stick there union contracts in there asses.
They might have a long drawn out strike, but eventually the union workers will change, or lose there jobs.
The other thing that I don't understand is how these huge coporations could give these unions such lucrative contracts in the first place, and then whine how the costs of these benefits are making them go broke.
I work for one of the largest producers of electrical power in the country as a salaried employee and make pretty good money for what I do. This company also has union workers who make very good money, these men and women are highly skilled craftsmen and deserve every dollar they get paid.
Their union has learned over the last few years that they need to change, and they have, or they won't survive in this highly competitive and deregulated power industry.
maybe they need to go "private" so they are not pressured into short term quartery results and can take a long view like japanese they have long term goals that they strive for. toyota has taken a hit with quality and that's a new goal for them
also no one says anything about resale value....that's consumer trust pure and simple the only used cars i would buy are from toyota honda and subaru. best qualty out there and you know at 80k miles you still have 5 years or more to go. my brothers acura had 310k miles and sold it for what he paid used for it. wow (i guess it has the heads that honda buildups want)
you buy qualtiy or you buy price, price loses because depreciation kills low qualtity cars. also if i see a car at a rental fleet i won't buy it, when they turn them over you lose when trading in.
the detroit three made contracts where keeping the production line going cost less than slowing them down to improve qualty... then they had to rebate them all to keep the flow going, wow guess where that got them.. roll them out regardless of qualtiy and we save the quality investment $$$$ make up for it with rebates and rental fleet dependency........loses everytime.
The fact that the Japanese overtook American car makers is a national disgrace. I don't think anyone else sees it this way but I think it's a very bad sign for our country and our economy. I made this post a few weeks ago:
This country has lost far too many manufacturing jobs to slave labor in Southeast Asia. We already import more goods than we export, this is not good. But this is being offset as of right now because we have a surplus of services. Still, it's not good to see that when we can buy American products, we choose to buy foreign. As I said in my post from a few weeks ago, I'm not liking what I see from Ford and GM and they are really going to have to work hard for me to buy another American car. But on the other hand, I do feel that it's almost an obligation to buy American made products when they are available. I just don't think there's enough people out there that even think about buying American vs. Foreign any more, they just buy whatever is cheapest or viewed to be the best. In the end, it just hurts our overall economy.
Honestly even Asia is losing manufacturing jobs. Much like how productivity gains have allowed all of us to eat to the point of obesity while actually retiring farm land and having fewer people than ever work those farms, the same is true of manufacturing. The Chinese are losing them to productivity and those aren't ever going to come back.
We've partially transitioned to a service economy, but the productivity gains here are even more apparent and sadly, it requires being quite smart to maintain what constitutes a decent job in this day and age. We are attempting it not even being able to transition our own population and also while shouldering around 10 million immigrants, mostly from Mexico as well. Will me be able to make the jump? I'm guessing no.
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
I've heard others with many problems. On the whole I was lucky. It was mainly the gas and the depreciation. I had intended to keep it, but then gas doubled in price after I got it. In 2003 gas was like $1.70-1.80 a gallon. That meant it cost me $38-42 to fill up. I was pushing $90 by the end...and since for a long time I had a long commute, I got gas every 4 days.
I remember some asshole on this board mentioning new cars and depreciation. Thank goodness I can't remember his name though.
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
Trump:
That would make logical sense, but I don't think the result is the same. Their products are still more clearly defined. They also seem to be more nimble in responding to the market...what with hybrids and what not. Oh...I also just realized what you mean...I was talking about too many of EACH model...as in raw production numbers. But it's true I am also talking about competing models and divisions. GM solved some of this by axing Olds, but you still have Pontiac, Chevy and Buick eating each other's lunch. Then they have Checy trucks and GMC trucks. It almost seems like the only reason Chvy CARS exist is for nostalgia. I say can Checy cars and GMC consumer trucks. Make GMC a fleet and truly "pro" brand.
I agree with what you say about the additional brands as well. I especially agree with the GMC pro brand.
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I don't think we're actually going to see a true crisis nationwide, because action will be taken to reform the system and/or cut benefits. But as for the UAW, it's really the overall pay I'm talking about.
Yeah, um... good luck on that. The baby boomers have never given up crap, nor have they ever acknowledge reality compared to their wants and desires. It is the defining trait of their entire generation and you somehow think that when push comes to shove, they will finally do what is right when they are suddenly the most vulnerable? Not a chance.
We chatted about interest rates and inflation. Inflation STILL has not come down and interest rates are still in danger of going up, even with slowing growth. The baby boomers are big liars. They only way you beat a liar at their own game is to tell a bigger lie. The U.S. will and already has been doing so by running the printing presses on the money supply. They will run much faster in the future.
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That's crazy, and it's without overtime and bonuses, which are also being paid. It's not crazy to assume the average assembler is making $35 a hour when that's taken into account. That's $72,000 a year. That's a hell of a lot more than I make with two college degrees and eight years in education in the highest paid district in the county...a county that is the 15th fastest growing in the nation.
Again, I suspect those numbers are weighed heavily by the "average" assembler being a boomer close to retirement.
Here is something truly crazy. Look at the number of retirees being supported by those workers. This is what we will be facing nationwide with a boomer retirement.
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I don't know that I agree with that. Do you have some data to back that up? In any case, my question is: Why aren't American sedans the best in the world? Therein lies the problem.
It is what I have seen when using my Consumer Reports subscription online. Note I did not say that American brands were equal to or better than Japanese brands in quality overall. I simply noted that there was variation with each respective brand. The worst Honda branded vehicle for quality was their minivan for example. Does this mean that the Honda minivan might not still score better than an American sedan? It might or might not. However it does mean that when you switch vehicle types, no matter who you go with, you will notice a change.
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I don't know....I think in the short term it steals sales. In the long term I don't think it matters. The real problem is that cars are just too expensive...and people now expect rebates and zero percent financing to help them justify the purchase.
Welcome to the credit and inflation bubble. In this bubble things are no longer worth their intrinsic value, but are worth what can be loaned against them.
I had my first major repair on a vehicle, a tranny in my truck. As much as it upset me it also shocked me because I discovered I could replace every major component in the truck with GM factory crated components for not even a quarter of the cost of a new vehicle. I mean we are talking brand new engine and tranny with three year dealer warranty for well under five grand. GM 3/4 tons trucks new are over $30,000. As you noted they are not car companies, but finance companies. The cars are merely the means they use to generate the ridiculous loans. When they have to sell the parts to someone like me who is not financing a vehicle, they are cheap in comparison.
The rest we mostly agree on.
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Originally Posted by ShawnJ
Japanese companies face little of this burden in Japan, where the government covers retirees' health care and pays a bigger share of workers' pensions.
There's a significant part of your solution.
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Originally Posted by ShawnJ
Toyota has significant manufacturing capacity in the US.
We're talking easily over 600,000 automobiles a year. So in one sense there's still somewhat of a claim that buying a Toyota is "buying American"-- if we're talking about American jobs.
When you have a relatively unskilled worker making $70K (not totally unskilled, but it's not rocket science)...and a computer engineer starts at $5,000 less, I think that's an issue.
Of course, IT is also an industry with a high percentage of low-skilled, uneducated people making that amount of money. The reasons are different, but, IMO, the effect is similar.
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Originally Posted by ronaldo
--From a more techical standpoint, I've heard the way "we" design cars is totally different than the more "team oriented" approach they use at Toyota and Nissan and what not. My understanding is the same team is responsible for the whole vehicle and especially quality control, whereas the domestics have specialists and managers for every little thing...including separate quality control.
Yeah, Toyota's manufacturing process, often referred to as "lean manufacturing," is kind of the darling of the agile software development movement and associated project management communities.
I can't disagree with you here, and like I said in my earlier post, I'm disgusted with the way that American car companies are being run. I hate seeing the CEOs making millions of dollars a month while the companies are going down the drain. My parents always bought American cars with one exception and told me why it was important to buy American. Now even they are considering buying a Toyota for their next car.
The only foreign car my parents ever bought was a Datsun shortly after they got married. They both sold their cars and bought a cheap vehicle because they needed money. The Datsun was a lemon from the minute they drove it off the lot. In fact, they brought it back to the dealer because of the problems they were having with it and were basically told, "Tough break". There were no lemon laws back then and they were pretty much out of luck. Datsuns were so unreliable and had such a bad reputation that they had to be rebranded in this country. The Datsun lines became Nissans here. Some cars and trucks are still sold under the Datsun name in Japan as far as I know.
But given gas mileage and the features they are seeing in the newer Japanese cars, I wouldn't be surprised to see them get a Toyota. It's really unfortunate.
Why is it unfortunate? They'll buy a Toyota made in the midwest for pete's sake. Who cares?
It is what I have seen when using my Consumer Reports subscription online. Note I did not say that American brands were equal to or better than Japanese brands in quality overall. I simply noted that there was variation with each respective brand. The worst Honda branded vehicle for quality was their minivan for example. Does this mean that the Honda minivan might not still score better than an American sedan? It might or might not. However it does mean that when you switch vehicle types, no matter who you go with, you will notice a change.
I've heard the Honda minivan is an excellent product in high demand. The only failure I've heard of from Honda was the Passport, which apparently was a piece of garbage. In any case, I don't agree that SUVs and trucks are inherently worse than cars. Some SUVs are even built on car platforms, like the Toyota Highlander.
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The problem with GM axing Pontiac and Buick is brand-loyalists.
Lots of people have been buying those brands for years, and it's no done-deal that they'd migrate to GM's other offerings for replacement. Sure, there's a case to be made that GM should better distinguish its brands, but it would hurt the company to lose those loyal buyers.
I agree with the brand loyalty analysis, but I also think they need to bite the bullet. They can either try and live in the past or live in the present and future. There's no question which they've picked now.
....I got a Chevy Malibu for a rental recently. Obviously, I can't speak to reliability, but in general it was kind of plush, sucked gas and handled like a pig. OK stereo, half a million motorized adjustments for the drivers seat.
And I thought, good lord, are they still building them like this? As if everybody buying cars is over 60 and wants a car that feels like their big chair back home?
Japan doesn't make a single car that wallows around and drinks gas like that Malibu. Maybe that has something to do with their success?
The Chevy Malibu has got to be one of the worst vehicles they build. I absolutely cannot stand that car.
To follow, I rented a Grand Prix last summer and my initial impressions were that it was much improved over other ones I had driven...but there ya go again..that was my impression, mostly from the comfort, appearance and quiet, smooth ride. It still felt like it weighed about 12 tons though.
I got a Chevy Malibu for a rental recently. Obviously, I can't speak to reliability, but in general it was kind of plush, sucked gas and handled like a pig. OK stereo, half a million motorized adjustments for the drivers seat.
Hmm. I had one booked for a rental a few years ago and made them give me something else as soon as I sat in it. Most of my experience with american cars in recent years has been through rentals, and I've disliked them so much that not only will I not buy one, I also now go out of my way to rent european cars when possible. I could see buying a corvette or a used standard cherokee, though, depending on my environment.
Hmm. I had one booked for a rental a few years ago and made them give me something else as soon as I sat in it. Most of my experience with american cars in recent years has been through rentals, and I've disliked them so much that not only will I not buy one, I also now go out of my way to rent european cars when possible. I could see buying a corvette or a used standard cherokee, though, depending on my environment.
Try a Grand Prix some time. I have no idea about reliability, but as I said my impressions over two days were pretty positive. Definitely better than an Impala or Malibu or what not.
The fact that the Japanese overtook American car makers is a national disgrace. I don't think anyone else sees it this way but I think it's a very bad sign for our country and our economy. I made this post a few weeks ago:
This country has lost far too many manufacturing jobs to slave labor in Southeast Asia. We already import more goods than we export, this is not good. But this is being offset as of right now because we have a surplus of services. Still, it's not good to see that when we can buy American products, we choose to buy foreign. As I said in my post from a few weeks ago, I'm not liking what I see from Ford and GM and they are really going to have to work hard for me to buy another American car. But on the other hand, I do feel that it's almost an obligation to buy American made products when they are available. I just don't think there's enough people out there that even think about buying American vs. Foreign any more, they just buy whatever is cheapest or viewed to be the best. In the end, it just hurts our overall economy.
Sure, you're buying from an American company, but who's workers are getting the paychecks? The last two American cars I owned (mid 1990's) were assembled in Canada and Mexico. My Toyota Camry was assembled in Kentucky.
In this multinational age, "American products" is a relative thing...
That said, I agree that US car companies produce crummy products, at least in my experience. I have never owned an American made car that didn't have major reliability problems. Our last US car was a 1995 Doge Caravan which we spent more on in repair warranty deductibles than lien payments! Our Honda and Toyota are 10 and 9 years old respectively, and all we have ever done to them is routine maintenance, and replace an oil gasket on the Honda.
This country has lost far too many manufacturing jobs to slave labor in Southeast Asia.
Fran, I've been to China and I've yet to see slave labor employed. China and India's economies are growing, while "ours" is slowing. The fact is, entropy affects every single human-made organization since the beginning of recorded history, including car companies. This too shall pass.
Hmm... design-wise it looks like a rip-off of the VW Passat. Actually, the only cars that have me salivating are the souped-up electrics that are coming from the real car innovators in the US.
Is it, though? I mean, design wise, things are definitely looking up in Detroit, at least for my tastes. Body styles and interior layout are no longer embarrassing in that scary clueless way, for the most part, and there are a number of American cars I wouldn't mind driving, if looks were the only criteria.
I like the design of that Malibu just fine, but how does it handle? What kind of reliability can we expect? Gas mileage?
Also, changing topics abruptly, why are American manufacturers so keen on what amount to novelty stylings? I get the feeling Detroit thinks America is still living in the Golden Age of Motoring, cruising Route 66 and Main Street, throwing the surfboards in the back of the woodie and tinkering with hot rods on the weekends. So there is all this "retro" stuff and "the new muscle cars" and those Dodge gangster-mobiles that the car mags get all excited about and which seem to be developed for an alternative universe where gas costs sixty nine cents a gallon and Betty and Veronica love a guy with a sweet ride to cruise the strip with.
Actually, now that I think about it, that really may be part of the problem: Detroit has a kind of generational attachment to some mystical notion of American's relationships to their cars, so that they figure people are really craving updates to big iron of their youth, or something.
Like maybe they didn't get the memo that most people just want reliable transportation that doesn't cost $100 a week to operate.
Hmm... design-wise it looks like a rip-off of the VW Passat. Actually, the only cars that have me salivating are the souped-up electrics that are coming from the real car innovators in the US.
What do you mean? Every compact sedan looks like a rip off of every other compact sedan. I can't tell them apart at a glance these days.
Fran, I've been to China and I've yet to see slave labor employed. China and India's economies are growing, while "ours" is slowing. The fact is, entropy affects every single human-made organization since the beginning of recorded history, including car companies. This too shall pass.
Ours isn't slowing. It's been growing for six strasight years, and overall it's been growing steadily since WWII. I think what you mean in "their" economies are growing more rapidly. That is actually a problem for "them" in itself.
Comments
Agreed in part. I think that GM has seen the writing on the wall...all of them have. It's their solutions that I think are wrong. They are trying to innovate their way out of it...trying to produce "new and exciting product offerings." The problem is consumers have seen all that. They can get the same features and some of the same bells and whistles on the foreign cars. That wasn't the case 10 years ago. They want quality. They want fit and finish. GM, Ford an Chrysler are still lagging in those areas...not as much as they were in the early 1990s, but they are still behind. .
I think that's a big part of it, right there.
The Japanese didn't get huge selling "interesting" and "unique" cars. They did it selling Civics and Accords, Tercels and Camrys, Sentras and Altimas.
Solid, reliable, fuel efficient, decent handling, logically laid out and kinda bland.
I got a Chevy Malibu for a rental recently. Obviously, I can't speak to reliability, but in general it was kind of plush, sucked gas and handled like a pig. OK stereo, half a million motorized adjustments for the drivers seat.
And I thought, good lord, are they still building them like this? As if everybody buying cars is over 60 and wants a car that feels like their big chair back home?
Japan doesn't make a single car that wallows around and drinks gas like that Malibu. Maybe that has something to do with their success?
I don't think you're seeing my point. I'm not looking down upon people with less education. If anything I think that we have become too much a nation of "managers." I actually think we as a nation are developing a case of "occupation snobbery" of sorts, and I don't think it's a good thing at all.
My point is that these people are being paid too much for what they are doing. When you have a relatively unskilled worker making $70K (not totally unskilled, but it's not rocket science)...and a computer engineer starts at $5,000 less, I think that's an issue. Starting teachers in Michigan make around the same as where I live from what I can see...from $35-$45K. How is it right then for a Ford worker to make $50 or $60K...especially when the market is not demanding those salaries?
I don't really see where you are going with the second point. Seems like sort of a frivolous aside to me, no offense intended.
I understand what you are saying. I believe most of these people that are making these huge salaries have probably been with the company for 20 or more years.
The thing I don't understand is why GM, Ford and Chrysler just don't tell the UAW to conform to the market based economy, or stick there union contracts in there asses.
They might have a long drawn out strike, but eventually the union workers will change, or lose there jobs.
The other thing that I don't understand is how these huge coporations could give these unions such lucrative contracts in the first place, and then whine how the costs of these benefits are making them go broke.
I work for one of the largest producers of electrical power in the country as a salaried employee and make pretty good money for what I do. This company also has union workers who make very good money, these men and women are highly skilled craftsmen and deserve every dollar they get paid.
Their union has learned over the last few years that they need to change, and they have, or they won't survive in this highly competitive and deregulated power industry.
also no one says anything about resale value....that's consumer trust pure and simple the only used cars i would buy are from toyota honda and subaru. best qualty out there and you know at 80k miles you still have 5 years or more to go. my brothers acura had 310k miles and sold it for what he paid used for it. wow (i guess it has the heads that honda buildups want)
you buy qualtiy or you buy price, price loses because depreciation kills low qualtity cars. also if i see a car at a rental fleet i won't buy it, when they turn them over you lose when trading in.
the detroit three made contracts where keeping the production line going cost less than slowing them down to improve qualty... then they had to rebate them all to keep the flow going, wow guess where that got them.. roll them out regardless of qualtiy and we save the quality investment $$$$ make up for it with rebates and rental fleet dependency........loses everytime.
The fact that the Japanese overtook American car makers is a national disgrace. I don't think anyone else sees it this way but I think it's a very bad sign for our country and our economy. I made this post a few weeks ago:
This country has lost far too many manufacturing jobs to slave labor in Southeast Asia. We already import more goods than we export, this is not good. But this is being offset as of right now because we have a surplus of services. Still, it's not good to see that when we can buy American products, we choose to buy foreign. As I said in my post from a few weeks ago, I'm not liking what I see from Ford and GM and they are really going to have to work hard for me to buy another American car. But on the other hand, I do feel that it's almost an obligation to buy American made products when they are available. I just don't think there's enough people out there that even think about buying American vs. Foreign any more, they just buy whatever is cheapest or viewed to be the best. In the end, it just hurts our overall economy.
Honestly even Asia is losing manufacturing jobs. Much like how productivity gains have allowed all of us to eat to the point of obesity while actually retiring farm land and having fewer people than ever work those farms, the same is true of manufacturing. The Chinese are losing them to productivity and those aren't ever going to come back.
We've partially transitioned to a service economy, but the productivity gains here are even more apparent and sadly, it requires being quite smart to maintain what constitutes a decent job in this day and age. We are attempting it not even being able to transition our own population and also while shouldering around 10 million immigrants, mostly from Mexico as well. Will me be able to make the jump? I'm guessing no.
I've heard others with many problems. On the whole I was lucky. It was mainly the gas and the depreciation. I had intended to keep it, but then gas doubled in price after I got it. In 2003 gas was like $1.70-1.80 a gallon. That meant it cost me $38-42 to fill up. I was pushing $90 by the end...and since for a long time I had a long commute, I got gas every 4 days.
I remember some asshole on this board mentioning new cars and depreciation. Thank goodness I can't remember his name though.
Trump:
That would make logical sense, but I don't think the result is the same. Their products are still more clearly defined. They also seem to be more nimble in responding to the market...what with hybrids and what not. Oh...I also just realized what you mean...I was talking about too many of EACH model...as in raw production numbers. But it's true I am also talking about competing models and divisions. GM solved some of this by axing Olds, but you still have Pontiac, Chevy and Buick eating each other's lunch. Then they have Checy trucks and GMC trucks. It almost seems like the only reason Chvy CARS exist is for nostalgia. I say can Checy cars and GMC consumer trucks. Make GMC a fleet and truly "pro" brand.
I agree with what you say about the additional brands as well. I especially agree with the GMC pro brand.
I don't think we're actually going to see a true crisis nationwide, because action will be taken to reform the system and/or cut benefits. But as for the UAW, it's really the overall pay I'm talking about.
Yeah, um... good luck on that. The baby boomers have never given up crap, nor have they ever acknowledge reality compared to their wants and desires. It is the defining trait of their entire generation and you somehow think that when push comes to shove, they will finally do what is right when they are suddenly the most vulnerable? Not a chance.
We chatted about interest rates and inflation. Inflation STILL has not come down and interest rates are still in danger of going up, even with slowing growth. The baby boomers are big liars. They only way you beat a liar at their own game is to tell a bigger lie. The U.S. will and already has been doing so by running the printing presses on the money supply. They will run much faster in the future.
That's crazy, and it's without overtime and bonuses, which are also being paid. It's not crazy to assume the average assembler is making $35 a hour when that's taken into account. That's $72,000 a year. That's a hell of a lot more than I make with two college degrees and eight years in education in the highest paid district in the county...a county that is the 15th fastest growing in the nation.
Again, I suspect those numbers are weighed heavily by the "average" assembler being a boomer close to retirement.
Here is something truly crazy. Look at the number of retirees being supported by those workers. This is what we will be facing nationwide with a boomer retirement.
I don't know that I agree with that. Do you have some data to back that up? In any case, my question is: Why aren't American sedans the best in the world? Therein lies the problem.
It is what I have seen when using my Consumer Reports subscription online. Note I did not say that American brands were equal to or better than Japanese brands in quality overall. I simply noted that there was variation with each respective brand. The worst Honda branded vehicle for quality was their minivan for example. Does this mean that the Honda minivan might not still score better than an American sedan? It might or might not. However it does mean that when you switch vehicle types, no matter who you go with, you will notice a change.
I don't know....I think in the short term it steals sales. In the long term I don't think it matters. The real problem is that cars are just too expensive...and people now expect rebates and zero percent financing to help them justify the purchase.
Welcome to the credit and inflation bubble. In this bubble things are no longer worth their intrinsic value, but are worth what can be loaned against them.
I had my first major repair on a vehicle, a tranny in my truck. As much as it upset me it also shocked me because I discovered I could replace every major component in the truck with GM factory crated components for not even a quarter of the cost of a new vehicle. I mean we are talking brand new engine and tranny with three year dealer warranty for well under five grand. GM 3/4 tons trucks new are over $30,000. As you noted they are not car companies, but finance companies. The cars are merely the means they use to generate the ridiculous loans. When they have to sell the parts to someone like me who is not financing a vehicle, they are cheap in comparison.
The rest we mostly agree on.
Japanese companies face little of this burden in Japan, where the government covers retirees' health care and pays a bigger share of workers' pensions.
There's a significant part of your solution.
Toyota has significant manufacturing capacity in the US.
We're talking easily over 600,000 automobiles a year. So in one sense there's still somewhat of a claim that buying a Toyota is "buying American"-- if we're talking about American jobs.
Shawn, how do you put these two points together.
Nick
When you have a relatively unskilled worker making $70K (not totally unskilled, but it's not rocket science)...and a computer engineer starts at $5,000 less, I think that's an issue.
Of course, IT is also an industry with a high percentage of low-skilled, uneducated people making that amount of money. The reasons are different, but, IMO, the effect is similar.
--From a more techical standpoint, I've heard the way "we" design cars is totally different than the more "team oriented" approach they use at Toyota and Nissan and what not. My understanding is the same team is responsible for the whole vehicle and especially quality control, whereas the domestics have specialists and managers for every little thing...including separate quality control.
Yeah, Toyota's manufacturing process, often referred to as "lean manufacturing," is kind of the darling of the agile software development movement and associated project management communities.
Shawn, how do you put these two points together.
Yeah, it's much less of a claim since the cars Toyota manufactures here are probably only 5-10% of the company's worldwide production.
I can't disagree with you here, and like I said in my earlier post, I'm disgusted with the way that American car companies are being run. I hate seeing the CEOs making millions of dollars a month while the companies are going down the drain. My parents always bought American cars with one exception and told me why it was important to buy American. Now even they are considering buying a Toyota for their next car.
The only foreign car my parents ever bought was a Datsun shortly after they got married. They both sold their cars and bought a cheap vehicle because they needed money. The Datsun was a lemon from the minute they drove it off the lot. In fact, they brought it back to the dealer because of the problems they were having with it and were basically told, "Tough break". There were no lemon laws back then and they were pretty much out of luck. Datsuns were so unreliable and had such a bad reputation that they had to be rebranded in this country. The Datsun lines became Nissans here. Some cars and trucks are still sold under the Datsun name in Japan as far as I know.
But given gas mileage and the features they are seeing in the newer Japanese cars, I wouldn't be surprised to see them get a Toyota. It's really unfortunate.
Why is it unfortunate? They'll buy a Toyota made in the midwest for pete's sake. Who cares?
It is what I have seen when using my Consumer Reports subscription online. Note I did not say that American brands were equal to or better than Japanese brands in quality overall. I simply noted that there was variation with each respective brand. The worst Honda branded vehicle for quality was their minivan for example. Does this mean that the Honda minivan might not still score better than an American sedan? It might or might not. However it does mean that when you switch vehicle types, no matter who you go with, you will notice a change.
I've heard the Honda minivan is an excellent product in high demand. The only failure I've heard of from Honda was the Passport, which apparently was a piece of garbage. In any case, I don't agree that SUVs and trucks are inherently worse than cars. Some SUVs are even built on car platforms, like the Toyota Highlander.
The problem with GM axing Pontiac and Buick is brand-loyalists.
Lots of people have been buying those brands for years, and it's no done-deal that they'd migrate to GM's other offerings for replacement. Sure, there's a case to be made that GM should better distinguish its brands, but it would hurt the company to lose those loyal buyers.
I agree with the brand loyalty analysis, but I also think they need to bite the bullet. They can either try and live in the past or live in the present and future. There's no question which they've picked now.
....I got a Chevy Malibu for a rental recently. Obviously, I can't speak to reliability, but in general it was kind of plush, sucked gas and handled like a pig. OK stereo, half a million motorized adjustments for the drivers seat.
And I thought, good lord, are they still building them like this? As if everybody buying cars is over 60 and wants a car that feels like their big chair back home?
Japan doesn't make a single car that wallows around and drinks gas like that Malibu. Maybe that has something to do with their success?
To follow, I rented a Grand Prix last summer and my initial impressions were that it was much improved over other ones I had driven...but there ya go again..that was my impression, mostly from the comfort, appearance and quiet, smooth ride. It still felt like it weighed about 12 tons though.
I got a Chevy Malibu for a rental recently. Obviously, I can't speak to reliability, but in general it was kind of plush, sucked gas and handled like a pig. OK stereo, half a million motorized adjustments for the drivers seat.
Hmm. I had one booked for a rental a few years ago and made them give me something else as soon as I sat in it. Most of my experience with american cars in recent years has been through rentals, and I've disliked them so much that not only will I not buy one, I also now go out of my way to rent european cars when possible. I could see buying a corvette or a used standard cherokee, though, depending on my environment.
Hmm. I had one booked for a rental a few years ago and made them give me something else as soon as I sat in it. Most of my experience with american cars in recent years has been through rentals, and I've disliked them so much that not only will I not buy one, I also now go out of my way to rent european cars when possible. I could see buying a corvette or a used standard cherokee, though, depending on my environment.
Try a Grand Prix some time. I have no idea about reliability, but as I said my impressions over two days were pretty positive. Definitely better than an Impala or Malibu or what not.
Definitely better than an Impala or Malibu or what not.
The new Malibu is pretty sweet.
The fact that the Japanese overtook American car makers is a national disgrace. I don't think anyone else sees it this way but I think it's a very bad sign for our country and our economy. I made this post a few weeks ago:
This country has lost far too many manufacturing jobs to slave labor in Southeast Asia. We already import more goods than we export, this is not good. But this is being offset as of right now because we have a surplus of services. Still, it's not good to see that when we can buy American products, we choose to buy foreign. As I said in my post from a few weeks ago, I'm not liking what I see from Ford and GM and they are really going to have to work hard for me to buy another American car. But on the other hand, I do feel that it's almost an obligation to buy American made products when they are available. I just don't think there's enough people out there that even think about buying American vs. Foreign any more, they just buy whatever is cheapest or viewed to be the best. In the end, it just hurts our overall economy.
Sure, you're buying from an American company, but who's workers are getting the paychecks? The last two American cars I owned (mid 1990's) were assembled in Canada and Mexico. My Toyota Camry was assembled in Kentucky.
In this multinational age, "American products" is a relative thing...
That said, I agree that US car companies produce crummy products, at least in my experience. I have never owned an American made car that didn't have major reliability problems. Our last US car was a 1995 Doge Caravan which we spent more on in repair warranty deductibles than lien payments! Our Honda and Toyota are 10 and 9 years old respectively, and all we have ever done to them is routine maintenance, and replace an oil gasket on the Honda.
This country has lost far too many manufacturing jobs to slave labor in Southeast Asia.
Fran, I've been to China and I've yet to see slave labor employed. China and India's economies are growing, while "ours" is slowing. The fact is, entropy affects every single human-made organization since the beginning of recorded history, including car companies. This too shall pass.
The new Malibu is pretty sweet.
Hmm... design-wise it looks like a rip-off of the VW Passat. Actually, the only cars that have me salivating are the souped-up electrics that are coming from the real car innovators in the US.
The new Malibu is pretty sweet.
Is it, though? I mean, design wise, things are definitely looking up in Detroit, at least for my tastes. Body styles and interior layout are no longer embarrassing in that scary clueless way, for the most part, and there are a number of American cars I wouldn't mind driving, if looks were the only criteria.
I like the design of that Malibu just fine, but how does it handle? What kind of reliability can we expect? Gas mileage?
Also, changing topics abruptly, why are American manufacturers so keen on what amount to novelty stylings? I get the feeling Detroit thinks America is still living in the Golden Age of Motoring, cruising Route 66 and Main Street, throwing the surfboards in the back of the woodie and tinkering with hot rods on the weekends. So there is all this "retro" stuff and "the new muscle cars" and those Dodge gangster-mobiles that the car mags get all excited about and which seem to be developed for an alternative universe where gas costs sixty nine cents a gallon and Betty and Veronica love a guy with a sweet ride to cruise the strip with.
Actually, now that I think about it, that really may be part of the problem: Detroit has a kind of generational attachment to some mystical notion of American's relationships to their cars, so that they figure people are really craving updates to big iron of their youth, or something.
Like maybe they didn't get the memo that most people just want reliable transportation that doesn't cost $100 a week to operate.
Like maybe they didn't get the memo that most people just want reliable transportation that doesn't cost $100 a week to operate.
Good points.
I mean-- I drive an '03 Civic. Enough said lol.
Hmm... design-wise it looks like a rip-off of the VW Passat. Actually, the only cars that have me salivating are the souped-up electrics that are coming from the real car innovators in the US.
What do you mean? Every compact sedan looks like a rip off of every other compact sedan. I can't tell them apart at a glance these days.
Fran, I've been to China and I've yet to see slave labor employed. China and India's economies are growing, while "ours" is slowing. The fact is, entropy affects every single human-made organization since the beginning of recorded history, including car companies. This too shall pass.
Ours isn't slowing. It's been growing for six strasight years, and overall it's been growing steadily since WWII. I think what you mean in "their" economies are growing more rapidly. That is actually a problem for "them" in itself.