As to the term laptop, they been called laptops for a very long time. It is lately (last 2 or so years) that the machines been getting too hot to lay on yout lap that manufactorers have been calling them notebook instead.
Many of us old timers still call them laptops.
Do you have any old print copies of ads or other corporate material calling them "laptop"? I don't remember seeing any. Right now, I have a copy of PC/Computing from 1998 and ALL of the ads I see refer to the machines as notebooks, a few do call them portables. No laptop in sight.
I stand by my previous statement. I think laptop is just an informal term.
Apple's Japan sales are gonna continue to tank if they keep delaying an ultraportable.
Nobody here wants to drag around a 5 lb MacBrick, err... MacBook, on the train to work 300 days per year when there are plenty of light, powerful Windoze laptops available.
It's pathetic to think Apple can't address the needs of the 2nd biggest consumer market in the world. And it's even worse to think that an overemphasis on the iPhone (which won't get to Japan for a few years) may be contributing to this.
Now you know the downside of allowing egomaniacs to run major corporations.
Tunnel Vision.
Oh, man of the sea, how I tend to agree!
Without a subnotebook, Apple will not sell to multitudes of young and active Japanese business people.
Apple Japan sucks, majorly, and sales are down over last year (if that was possible), even with the hot MBs, MBPs and iMacs. These are just not products for the Japanese market.
PDAs like the Clie don't sell that much here now, but subportables are hard to keep in stock. My wife just switched back to PCs when she found something almost 1/3 the weight and half the size of her MB, thus making it far, far, far easier for her to carry it wherever she goes. Indeed, she uses it every day now, and the MB is going to a used computer shop next week...
Apple's first NAND-Flash memory based computer is unlikely to be (or should not be) the ultra portable mentioned in this article. Quite simply because the potential market for this device, and the premium that customers would be willing to pay for this device would be too small to justify the efforts of including NAND-Flash. Instant-on is a necessity in the iPhone, but most customers would be happy with a one-minute start up for an ultra-portable. There are power savings, yes, but the premium price might not be worth that.
Consider a Mac Mini that is modified in following way - NAND Flash memory, power switch and USB ports moved from rear to front, rejigged to operate on 12V power instead of 19V power - all these are extremely simple engineering accomplishments, except the NAND-Flash - but if Apple is going to integrate NAND Flash into one architecture, the extra work to incorporate it into the Mac mini is not all that much extra.
Now, take this modified Mac Mini, and increase the depth by another 2 inches - we now have a device with exact form factor as car-audio devices, so this Mac mini mod can be the perfect Car Computer. If Apple works on a GPS solution, and adds in iDash (from the iDash open source project) as the software to interact with the Mac Mini, you have a perfect car solution.
Of the additional 2 inches of depth, one inch in the rear can be used for sensor electronics - so that the Mac Mini can get variety of inputs from the car like speed, fuel remaining, fuel efficiency, trip meter info, all of which can be integrated with iDash to integrate car management functionality as well. Can also be used for GPS receiver and EDGE/3G based cellular networking hardware - one single external antenna that integrates GPS, EDGE/3G, as well as FM Radio reception. The second inch can be used in the front - to have a removable HDD and Compact Flash slots. This way you can easily pull out the HDD, connect it to your computer at home, and update the music, video, etc for use on the move.
This solution potentially has a MUCH larger market than we can think of. Except for the car sensors, this can be integrated into existing cars as well. Apple can work with the car manufacturers and license the technology for the sensors - so that this device can be fully integrated into future cars. They already work with the car manufacturers on iPod integration, so this is not that big a deal. Or else, third party manufacturers can sell kits that integrate this computer with the built in sensors already present in each car.
Mac Mini already supports BlueTooth, so it is easy to have a BlueTooth based handsfree integrated with this solution. Also BlueTooth can be used for the external remote antenna as well.
Someone buying a $25,000 car would not be that averse to adding in a $1000 solution that gives him so much more functionality and transforms his car into a high end vehicle. The best part of this solution is that most of the functionality is already present. Most of the changes (except NAND Flash) are relatively cosmetic in nature, and will not change the costs of the device too much. Mac Mini already has good acceptance at current price points, and if the additional modifications dont add over $200 in price, the acceptance would be EVEN higher. Apple could also use this to increase market share vis-a-vis Windows - as there would not be effective competition in this space for quite some time - esp. not with NAND Flash memory.
Instant-On which is the most important benefit of NAND-Flash is extremely useful for a Car Computer, and people will be willing to pay a premium for this facility in this environment.
The only risk is that this could possibly eat into iPod sales for car-use - but even this can be intelligently converted into a plus - if this device has an iPod docking station, then it can be paired with an iPod easily. And people use their iPods not just in their cars - so they could use this solution in their cars, and use their iPods everywhere else. Considering that this solution would offer the best integration with the iPod, it could even be used to entrench the iPod even further.
All I want is a Mac OS on a Sony Vaio TX or SZ series notebook. Sony manages to make light and portable laptops with good battery life, and optical drives. Why do I have to buy a Sony to have it? I don't want Windows, and see no excuse for Apple. Come on Steve!
Apple's first NAND-Flash memory based computer is unlikely to be (or should not be) the ultra portable mentioned in this article. Quite simply because the potential market for this device, and the premium that customers would be willing to pay for this device would be too small to justify the efforts of including NAND-Flash.
The Sony SZ is $2800. You underestimate the premium that folks will pay for an ultraportable. The size of the market is such that there are multiple ultraportable offerings so I'm going to guess you underestimate the market size as well.
Quote:
Instant-on is a necessity in the iPhone, but most customers would be happy with a one-minute start up for an ultra-portable. There are power savings, yes, but the premium price might not be worth that.
Instant on means you get to start using your notebook right when the meeting kicks off, or you have a free moment and need to check something or whatever. 1 min is too slow.
Quote:
This solution potentially has a MUCH larger market than we can think of. Except for the car sensors, this can be integrated into existing cars as well. Apple can work with the car manufacturers and license the technology for the sensors - so that this device can be fully integrated into future cars.
Nothing you described can't be handled by a PDA...or iPhone...
Remember I was talking about all notebooks, not just the prety and light sub-notebook.
For as long as I remembers most notebook manufactures have made docking stations for notebooks, but Apple does not.
In addition, Apple doesn't seem to mind selling iPod docks, even though iPods are smaller and have fewer connectors than any ultra-portable notebook. And isn't the iPhone also going to have an available dock?
I'm sure a thin, light ultra-portble would be a very desirable thing to have for many people and it needn't be too expensive. Apple's history tells us what might happen. Seize upon the latest technology and use your buying power to get the best prices. That's how the iPod happened.
HD or NAND?
A 1.8" high capacity HD could be used to keep the cost down. A hybrid Mac could use both a tiny HD and some NAND flash. An all-flash SSD is also possible. Samsung just mentioned 16Gb flash chips. Put 8 of them together and you have a tiny 16GB flash card smaller than the 4GB card currently used in the 4GB nano. Put 4 of those little cards together and you have a 64GB SSD in the same space as a 1.8" HD.
By early next year, such SSDs will be at an affordable price point. Lots of advantages of flash memory like higher speed, longer battery life, lighter weight, and much more durability.
As for the timing of this, the technology and cost structure need to converge at the right point. You need high density flash at a good price point and a powerful but cool CPU that's easy on the battery and the wallet. For that, Penryn would fit the bill and that won't be ready until early next year. It's looking like that's when it's all coming together. MWSF would be a good venue.
A 1.8" high capacity HD could be used to keep the cost down. A hybrid Mac could use both a tiny HD and some NAND flash. An all-flash SSD is also possible. Samsung just mentioned 16Gb flash chips. Put 8 of them together and you have a tiny 16GB flash card smaller than the 4GB card currently used in the 4GB nano. Put 4 of those little cards together and you have a 64GB SSD in the same space as a 1.8" HD.
They've announced a long time ago and, well I wouldn't call it sampling as much as showing chips at conferences. Toshiba has announced mass production of their 16Gb NAND in June and sampling...well today unless they are late (late March/early April they said April).
SanDisk just announced a 32GB 2.5" for $350...presumably still using much older NAND. Their 1.8" reputedly sells for less than $600 to OEMs using 8Gb NAND from the pics. The Samsung 32GB 1.8" uses the same NAND as in the Nano and is what's going in their UMPCs.
Quote:
As for the timing of this, the technology and cost structure need to converge at the right point. You need high density flash at a good price point and a powerful but cool CPU that's easy on the battery and the wallet. For that, Penryn would fit the bill and that won't be ready until early next year. It's looking like that's when it's all coming together. MWSF would be a good venue.
This year might be pushing things a little given availability of NAND. But with Samsung and others aready hitting the market NAND based laptops and UMPCs and I think Sony has made noises (can't recall now) I'd say this year is possible if unlikely.
Edit: Oh hey...Samsung finally announced mass production. Sorry...my bad, thought it was yet another one of Samsung's "Uh...we're going to REALLY sample...uh, next month...really" announcements. Mass production is great news. I guess they have beat Toshiba by 2 months after all.
Mmm...I wonder is iPhone will still make June...when Samsung released their 8Gb chips last year Apple followed by 2 months with a new Nano using those chips. Its still possible the iPhone will use the new 16Gb chips...Samsung HAS been sampling them a long time...but early June looks real real tight.
Do you have any old print copies of ads or other corporate material calling them "laptop"? I don't remember seeing any. Right now, I have a copy of PC/Computing from 1998 and ALL of the ads I see refer to the machines as notebooks, a few do call them portables. No laptop in sight.
I stand by my previous statement. I think laptop is just an informal term.
From Engadget, yesterday:
"Remember that 20-inch HP HDX Pavilion laptop from yesterday? Well, more shots of the massive gaming laptop have turned up from different angles to give us a better idea of how this top-end laptop looks. This new angle puts the HDX closer in style to the traditional laptop form factor than its main "inspiration," the Dell XPS M2010. Still, the sheer size of the screen coupled with the remote means that this is a laptop with one helluva identity crisis: is it best to think of it as a portable home entertainment system, or a maxed out machine for those with very wide laps?"
I don't think Engadget counts, for one, they are a lot more informal than professional, and they don't make anything. My point was that no maker of notebook computers ever called them "laptops" that I've seen, and calling them notebooks is not a recent trend.
I don't think Engadget counts, for one, they are a lot more informal than professional, and they don't make anything. My point was that no maker of notebook computers ever called them "laptops" that I've seen, and calling them notebooks is not a recent trend.
Are you guys talking about an identity crisis?
Notebooks are just called notebooks. That's simply because they aren't much larger than, well, notebooks.
But the term laptop has been around pretty much from the beginning. It used to stand for portables that were (finally!) small, and light enough, to be placed directly on one's lap. At the time the term came into being, there were no machines small enough to be called notebooks. That came later.
Are we searching for a politically-correct term that doesn't offend any computers already out there?
Compact, all-in-one computer that is relatively portable (depending on various factors), may or may not be able to be used comfortably on a lap (depending on various factors) and normally has a flipping lid much in the way a notebook flips open.
I'm sure that someone could do better, but what is the point? Notebook = Laptop in common usage.
Comments
As to the term laptop, they been called laptops for a very long time. It is lately (last 2 or so years) that the machines been getting too hot to lay on yout lap that manufactorers have been calling them notebook instead.
Many of us old timers still call them laptops.
Do you have any old print copies of ads or other corporate material calling them "laptop"? I don't remember seeing any. Right now, I have a copy of PC/Computing from 1998 and ALL of the ads I see refer to the machines as notebooks, a few do call them portables. No laptop in sight.
I stand by my previous statement. I think laptop is just an informal term.
Apple's Japan sales are gonna continue to tank if they keep delaying an ultraportable.
Nobody here wants to drag around a 5 lb MacBrick, err... MacBook, on the train to work 300 days per year when there are plenty of light, powerful Windoze laptops available.
It's pathetic to think Apple can't address the needs of the 2nd biggest consumer market in the world. And it's even worse to think that an overemphasis on the iPhone (which won't get to Japan for a few years) may be contributing to this.
Now you know the downside of allowing egomaniacs to run major corporations.
Tunnel Vision.
Oh, man of the sea, how I tend to agree!
Without a subnotebook, Apple will not sell to multitudes of young and active Japanese business people.
Apple Japan sucks, majorly, and sales are down over last year (if that was possible), even with the hot MBs, MBPs and iMacs. These are just not products for the Japanese market.
PDAs like the Clie don't sell that much here now, but subportables are hard to keep in stock. My wife just switched back to PCs when she found something almost 1/3 the weight and half the size of her MB, thus making it far, far, far easier for her to carry it wherever she goes. Indeed, she uses it every day now, and the MB is going to a used computer shop next week...
Can we call it the NANDbook???
Great first post, Welcome to AI.
Nope, we are used to Minis, Nanos and Pros
do we even care about Ultra Portable? Get with it Apple, we want better MacBook Pro that are lighter and more powerful and LBL
Yes, we do, and yes, that would be nice, too!
There are markets for both.
Consider a Mac Mini that is modified in following way - NAND Flash memory, power switch and USB ports moved from rear to front, rejigged to operate on 12V power instead of 19V power - all these are extremely simple engineering accomplishments, except the NAND-Flash - but if Apple is going to integrate NAND Flash into one architecture, the extra work to incorporate it into the Mac mini is not all that much extra.
Now, take this modified Mac Mini, and increase the depth by another 2 inches - we now have a device with exact form factor as car-audio devices, so this Mac mini mod can be the perfect Car Computer. If Apple works on a GPS solution, and adds in iDash (from the iDash open source project) as the software to interact with the Mac Mini, you have a perfect car solution.
Of the additional 2 inches of depth, one inch in the rear can be used for sensor electronics - so that the Mac Mini can get variety of inputs from the car like speed, fuel remaining, fuel efficiency, trip meter info, all of which can be integrated with iDash to integrate car management functionality as well. Can also be used for GPS receiver and EDGE/3G based cellular networking hardware - one single external antenna that integrates GPS, EDGE/3G, as well as FM Radio reception. The second inch can be used in the front - to have a removable HDD and Compact Flash slots. This way you can easily pull out the HDD, connect it to your computer at home, and update the music, video, etc for use on the move.
This solution potentially has a MUCH larger market than we can think of. Except for the car sensors, this can be integrated into existing cars as well. Apple can work with the car manufacturers and license the technology for the sensors - so that this device can be fully integrated into future cars. They already work with the car manufacturers on iPod integration, so this is not that big a deal. Or else, third party manufacturers can sell kits that integrate this computer with the built in sensors already present in each car.
Mac Mini already supports BlueTooth, so it is easy to have a BlueTooth based handsfree integrated with this solution. Also BlueTooth can be used for the external remote antenna as well.
Someone buying a $25,000 car would not be that averse to adding in a $1000 solution that gives him so much more functionality and transforms his car into a high end vehicle. The best part of this solution is that most of the functionality is already present. Most of the changes (except NAND Flash) are relatively cosmetic in nature, and will not change the costs of the device too much. Mac Mini already has good acceptance at current price points, and if the additional modifications dont add over $200 in price, the acceptance would be EVEN higher. Apple could also use this to increase market share vis-a-vis Windows - as there would not be effective competition in this space for quite some time - esp. not with NAND Flash memory.
Instant-On which is the most important benefit of NAND-Flash is extremely useful for a Car Computer, and people will be willing to pay a premium for this facility in this environment.
The only risk is that this could possibly eat into iPod sales for car-use - but even this can be intelligently converted into a plus - if this device has an iPod docking station, then it can be paired with an iPod easily. And people use their iPods not just in their cars - so they could use this solution in their cars, and use their iPods everywhere else. Considering that this solution would offer the best integration with the iPod, it could even be used to entrench the iPod even further.
I still want my ultra portable MacBook Nano!
Abot the size of a DVD case would be awesome, and, as I am a pro user, cost is not really an issue, as long as the specs are right.
I dare say its been 'Steved' for six months; which means it wasn't good enough.
Apple's first NAND-Flash memory based computer is unlikely to be (or should not be) the ultra portable mentioned in this article. Quite simply because the potential market for this device, and the premium that customers would be willing to pay for this device would be too small to justify the efforts of including NAND-Flash.
The Sony SZ is $2800. You underestimate the premium that folks will pay for an ultraportable. The size of the market is such that there are multiple ultraportable offerings so I'm going to guess you underestimate the market size as well.
Instant-on is a necessity in the iPhone, but most customers would be happy with a one-minute start up for an ultra-portable. There are power savings, yes, but the premium price might not be worth that.
Instant on means you get to start using your notebook right when the meeting kicks off, or you have a free moment and need to check something or whatever. 1 min is too slow.
This solution potentially has a MUCH larger market than we can think of. Except for the car sensors, this can be integrated into existing cars as well. Apple can work with the car manufacturers and license the technology for the sensors - so that this device can be fully integrated into future cars.
Nothing you described can't be handled by a PDA...or iPhone...
A mini is pretty much overkill.
Vinea
Remember I was talking about all notebooks, not just the prety and light sub-notebook.
For as long as I remembers most notebook manufactures have made docking stations for notebooks, but Apple does not.
In addition, Apple doesn't seem to mind selling iPod docks, even though iPods are smaller and have fewer connectors than any ultra-portable notebook. And isn't the iPhone also going to have an available dock?
HD or NAND?
A 1.8" high capacity HD could be used to keep the cost down. A hybrid Mac could use both a tiny HD and some NAND flash. An all-flash SSD is also possible. Samsung just mentioned 16Gb flash chips. Put 8 of them together and you have a tiny 16GB flash card smaller than the 4GB card currently used in the 4GB nano. Put 4 of those little cards together and you have a 64GB SSD in the same space as a 1.8" HD.
By early next year, such SSDs will be at an affordable price point. Lots of advantages of flash memory like higher speed, longer battery life, lighter weight, and much more durability.
As for the timing of this, the technology and cost structure need to converge at the right point. You need high density flash at a good price point and a powerful but cool CPU that's easy on the battery and the wallet. For that, Penryn would fit the bill and that won't be ready until early next year. It's looking like that's when it's all coming together. MWSF would be a good venue.
A 1.8" high capacity HD could be used to keep the cost down. A hybrid Mac could use both a tiny HD and some NAND flash. An all-flash SSD is also possible. Samsung just mentioned 16Gb flash chips. Put 8 of them together and you have a tiny 16GB flash card smaller than the 4GB card currently used in the 4GB nano. Put 4 of those little cards together and you have a 64GB SSD in the same space as a 1.8" HD.
They've announced a long time ago and, well I wouldn't call it sampling as much as showing chips at conferences. Toshiba has announced mass production of their 16Gb NAND in June and sampling...well today unless they are late (late March/early April they said April).
SanDisk just announced a 32GB 2.5" for $350...presumably still using much older NAND. Their 1.8" reputedly sells for less than $600 to OEMs using 8Gb NAND from the pics. The Samsung 32GB 1.8" uses the same NAND as in the Nano and is what's going in their UMPCs.
As for the timing of this, the technology and cost structure need to converge at the right point. You need high density flash at a good price point and a powerful but cool CPU that's easy on the battery and the wallet. For that, Penryn would fit the bill and that won't be ready until early next year. It's looking like that's when it's all coming together. MWSF would be a good venue.
This year might be pushing things a little given availability of NAND. But with Samsung and others aready hitting the market NAND based laptops and UMPCs and I think Sony has made noises (can't recall now) I'd say this year is possible if unlikely.
Edit: Oh hey...Samsung finally announced mass production. Sorry...my bad, thought it was yet another one of Samsung's "Uh...we're going to REALLY sample...uh, next month...really" announcements. Mass production is great news. I guess they have beat Toshiba by 2 months after all.
Vinea
Vinea
Do you have any old print copies of ads or other corporate material calling them "laptop"? I don't remember seeing any. Right now, I have a copy of PC/Computing from 1998 and ALL of the ads I see refer to the machines as notebooks, a few do call them portables. No laptop in sight.
I stand by my previous statement. I think laptop is just an informal term.
From Engadget, yesterday:
"Remember that 20-inch HP HDX Pavilion laptop from yesterday? Well, more shots of the massive gaming laptop have turned up from different angles to give us a better idea of how this top-end laptop looks. This new angle puts the HDX closer in style to the traditional laptop form factor than its main "inspiration," the Dell XPS M2010. Still, the sheer size of the screen coupled with the remote means that this is a laptop with one helluva identity crisis: is it best to think of it as a portable home entertainment system, or a maxed out machine for those with very wide laps?"
Very nice first post... welcome to AI! Interesting idea for the mini; not only cars, but boats could benefit as well.
I still want my ultra portable MacBook Nano!
Abot the size of a DVD case would be awesome, and, as I am a pro user, cost is not really an issue, as long as the specs are right.
So it could be called a NANObook!
From Engadget, yesterday:
I don't think Engadget counts, for one, they are a lot more informal than professional, and they don't make anything. My point was that no maker of notebook computers ever called them "laptops" that I've seen, and calling them notebooks is not a recent trend.
I don't think Engadget counts, for one, they are a lot more informal than professional, and they don't make anything. My point was that no maker of notebook computers ever called them "laptops" that I've seen, and calling them notebooks is not a recent trend.
Are you guys talking about an identity crisis?
Notebooks are just called notebooks. That's simply because they aren't much larger than, well, notebooks.
But the term laptop has been around pretty much from the beginning. It used to stand for portables that were (finally!) small, and light enough, to be placed directly on one's lap. At the time the term came into being, there were no machines small enough to be called notebooks. That came later.
Compact, all-in-one computer that is relatively portable (depending on various factors), may or may not be able to be used comfortably on a lap (depending on various factors) and normally has a flipping lid much in the way a notebook flips open.
I'm sure that someone could do better, but what is the point? Notebook = Laptop in common usage.